Meat - Is It Against Sikhi?

[Amerikaur]

I don't have enough intimate knowledge or of another person's body to tell them what to eat or what not to eat...nor do I have the spiritual authority to decide for anyone else.

 

[Lionchild]

There really is no good reason for ppl to eat meat exept out of being lazy.

After all, it's not easy being a vegetarian, but the rewards are short and long term. When i turned vegetarin, i started to notice sutle but noticible imrovments in my skin and color health. I also found out that it greatly reduces your chance to develope hear disease and other several problems. Knowing that beef and other meats are often pumped full of hormones and fed waste by products also prompted me to become a vegetarian.

It's actually easy to get the info and proper food to be a vegetarian, but you need the will power to stay a vegetarin.

The onlt time when eating meat would be permicable is when your at someone elses place or taken out to dinner and the other person orders for you. And when in a really despereate situation, you can eat meat.

Other than that, eating meat is purely unecessary.

edit: there is a difference between telling ppl what to do and giving information and your viewpoint on a subject like this.

 

[UnstoppableSingh]

This is the only thing i'm gonna say on this topic of Meat.

Eating meat isn't bad nor good nor evil.

3 simple lifestyle rules Sikhs are taught from Gurbani is Talk less, Sleep Less and Eat Less.
Eating Less doesn't mean starving or mal-nutrition. Because without this body we can't progress on the spiritual path. Eating Less is the limitation of Eating out of Taste (which usually leads to over eating). Taste leads to 2 things Greed (wanting to eat as much as you can) and Desire (Desire of good tasting things ie Chocolate, cake or what not)

Eating 6 Bowls of Kheer is much worse then someone eating a peice of meat in there dinner. The belief that meat is anti-holy is stupidity and ones own inability to read and understand Gurbani for oneself. The excuse so and so Baba told me so is the reason the Panth is in huge disarray.

------------------------------------------------------

Second part of this meat issue is a bit more on the higher end of Spirituality. Most of us seem to forget we are just beginners on the path. We put pressures on ourselves and limit our spiritual growth by putting restraints on issues that don't effect the mind or soul until much futher on the path.

First part of the Spiritual path is phyiscal. Outward appearance. For Sikhs this involves 5 Ks. The ability to accept things as God given and not altering them is just part of the First step.

Second is Karmatic life style. Understanding Right from Wrong and restraining from Wrong. This builds ones moral character.

Third. Control of Thoughts. To control ones mind is the first step of Bhakti. Because before this our mind wanders and doesn't allow one to focus on Ek. We do what is called Vocal Praying (speaking but making no difference in the growth of the mind).

AT this stage many simple things affect us. Meat and other issues like
1) Who prepared the food
2) Where the food was prepared
3) Thought that went into the food

becomes an issue on this level. Because thoughts carried in to the body from Food greatly effect ones thoughts and can stop ones Bhatki.
Sangat and other aspects greatly effect one at this level on the path of Spirituality.

This is the only time when eating meat becomes an issue for a Sikh. Because the thought of the animal and the thought of the preparer of the food carry on to the mind of the ones partaking in the food. And as the thought carries on it multiplies to give greater effect on ones mind.

Most of us (probably 99.999% of the world) aren't one this level yet. We can barely accept our Guru given outward appearance. Let alone try to stop doing wrong by little "white" lies or fibbing. Thoughts and Thoughts force is way later on for us. Don't try to jump right up there because the fall back down usually destroys ones will to get back on the path.

 

[Nim_23]

Our guru said if we can eat meat BUT not halal meat. There is a word in punjabi said by our gurus for mest that is halal i will check it out and let you know soon.

 

[Nim_23]

Our gurus said we CAN eat meat BUT the meat has to be NOT HALAL. Sikhs are not to eat halal meat. Will get back with more info.

 

[Randip Singh]

I was hoping to start this discussion myself soon, but anyway, here are my two cents....

I would like to share two quotes from Guruji:
Page 723
O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish.
The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ||Pause||

Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.


In my opinion, avoiding meat is a preferred diet, however, Guruji teaches that it is much more important to worry about spiritual progress than just a diet. So I feel that if one feels confident in his spiritual practice, then he should begin to think about avoiding things such as meat.
By the way, is it true that amritdharis have to avoid meat [and sex but ONLY for procreation]?
~CaramelChocolate~
The little philosopher

To the first point Caramel......that is a bit of a nauty and misleading translation you have been given (probably by Dera/Sant type people).

Read the english with the Gurmukhi:

1. Page 723, Line 14
   ਬੰਦੇ ਚਸਮ ਦੀਦੰ ਫਨਾਇ ॥
   बंदे चसम दीदं फनाइ ॥
   banday chasam deedaN fanaa-ay.
   O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish.
   Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

1. Page 723, Line 14
   ਦੁਨਂ​‍ੀਆ ਮੁਰਦਾਰ ਖੁਰਦਨੀ ਗਾਫਲ ਹਵਾਇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
   दुनींआ मुरदार खुरदनी गाफल हवाइ ॥ रहाउ ॥
   duneeN-aa murdaar khurdanee gaafal havaa-ay. rahaa-o.
   The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ||Pause||
   Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

1. Page 723, Line 15
   ਗੈਬਾਨ ਹੈਵਾਨ ਹਰਾਮ ਕੁਸਤਨੀ ਮੁਰਦਾਰ ਬਖੋਰਾਇ ॥
   गैबान हैवान हराम कुसतनी मुरदार बखोराइ ॥
   gaibaan haivaan haraam kustanee murdaar bakhoraa-ay.
   Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.
   Guru Arjan Dev

Here they have translated Mudar to mean carcasses. This is incorrect. Murdar means “The Dead” as in Dead Human beings. So what this translation is actually saying is that the world survives on the misfortunes of a fellow human being, and is absolutely nothing to do with meat eating. It should read something like this:

The world eats dead humans, living by neglect and greed.

Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and feed on the bones of the dead.



Point 2…no Amritdhari’s do not have to avoid meat, however, some Baba’s and Dera’s have taken it upon themselves to introduce abstinence from meat eating as part of the Amrit Ceremony……..this is clearly an abhoration.

 

[Lionchild]

this thread is so going to get closed...

 

[Randip Singh]

meat is normally eaten just for its taste.

is that what the gurus said? kill things for taste?

no!

you can eat meat, as a last resort. just like bandha singh bahdur. he only ate horses, because he was surrounded. sikhi was in his hands.

now, if we eat plants, why not meat?

simple, its a last resort. plants give us what we need, proteins and other stuff. its what simpletons eat. because its a last resort. but we dont have it for taste now do we? we have it because it keeps us going.

also the zafarnama says not to eat meat.

saying that, gyani sant singh maskeen says you can eat meat, its up to you. he abides by the akal takhat maryada.

The taste argument is a false one.....because if that is the case then by tase I am addicted to White Channay!!! Note I am a meat eater.

For my powerlifting, meat as pst of a balanced diet gives me much more strength than the average vegetarian.

According to Bani, there is no difference between a plant, animal, or rock.........it does however differentiate between a human being and these.

 

[Randip Singh]

Quick thing, not as elaborate as everyone else's posts.

Being vegetarian myself, I do have a certain bias in this argument but there seem to be many people who argue for being able to eat meat and quote gurbani etc. It seems to me that it's very easy to argue you're point when the meat you wish to eat is available pre-packaged, blood drained, skinned, plucked and ready to cook.

I wonder how the meat eaters choices would be if they had to actually do the killing themselves. I wonder how many people would be able to deliver that killing stroke and take a life to satifiy their hunger when many other options present themselves....

Ask youself.....would you? could you?

Same could be said of a Vegetarian......go to a farm.......plough up the soil killing worms and other organisms.......destroy natural habitats of wildlife....spray your crops killing all the insects.........etc etc

 

[Randip Singh]

Ditto. I am Vegetarian myself & was not told to do so by Panj Piyare. Living with the vegetarian family; I made this choice for myself long time ago.

My cousins have taken Amrit and not once have they been told to abstain from eating meat.....and that was in India.

Methinks this abstinance from meat think has been added in by various Sects,Baba's and Dera's.

 

[Randip Singh]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh!

GushK ji has a very good point,

How many ppl here would be able to honestl say that they could go out and kill an animal just to satisy there hungry? We eat because he have to to survive, but then shouldnt we just eat what we need, not what we feel like. If u were in the middle of a jungle then of course u would have to eat sum kind of animal but now adays we have everything at our convienece so y eat a poor inocent animal when we could eat vegetables, lentil etc... We do not NEED meat to survive.

One may say 'We need to have protein" and that it tru but you can eat lentils, tofu and even soya products that will give that. In the end the choice is up to the individual but they should think how would they feel if they were that animal being killed just becuase someone else felt like eating it?

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheGuru ji ki fateh!

You are projecting your own opinion on a faith called Sikhism which does not say eat meat, or eat vegetables. It does not make a judgement either way.

Just because you do not see a plant squirm, does not make your acts any more pious. There are beans and plants that we eat that try to poison people to avoid being eaten, yet we soak them overnight or crush them so as to remove the poisons, just so we can satisfy our own conscience into thinking we have taken no life. The argument in the context of Sikhism is a folly my friend.

Page 143
ਮਃ ੧ ॥
मः १ ॥
mehlaa 1.
First Mehl:

ਵੇਖੁ ਜਿ ਮਿਠਾ ਕਟਿਆ ਕਟਿ ਕੁਟਿ ਬਧਾ ਪਾਇ ॥
वेखु जि मिठा कटिआ कटि कुटि बधा पाइ ॥
vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.
Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,
ਖੁੰਢਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਰਖਿ ਕੈ ਦੇਨਿ ਸੁ ਮਲ ਸਜਾਇ ॥
खुंढा अंदरि रखि कै देनि सु मल सजाइ ॥
khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.
and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.

ਰਸੁ ਕਸੁ ਟਟਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਤਪੈ ਤੈ ਵਿਲਲਾਇ ॥
रसु कसु टटरि पाईऐ तपै तै विललाइ ॥
ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.
What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.

ਭੀ ਸੋ ਫੋਗੁ ਸਮਾਲੀਐ ਦਿਚੈ ਅਗਿ ਜਾਲਾਇ ॥
भी सो फोगु समालीऐ दिचै अगि जालाइ ॥
bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.
And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.

ਨਾਨਕ ਮਿਠੈ ਪਤਰੀਐ ਵੇਖਹੁ ਲੋਕਾ ਆਇ ॥੨॥
नानक मिठै पतरीऐ वेखहु लोका आइ ॥२॥
naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay. ||2||
Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated! ||2||

 

[Randip Singh]

taken from http://tapoban.org/meat.htm

Arguments Against Meat


In hukumnamas collected by Dr. Ganda Singh jee and published in his book "hukumnamas" each one of Satguru Hargobind Sahib's hukumnamas state "guru guru japna janam savar sangat dee kamnaa guru pooree karraygaa. Sangatee da ruzgaar hog, ik daasee rahinaa. Maas muchee day naray nahee avanaa." Please examine the last line. Clearly it says not to even go near meat or fish. This can't be just a hoax because all hukumnamas collected issued from Satguru jee bear this order.

Bhai Gurdas jee, whose banee was called the key to SGGS by Satguru Arjun dev jee says:

Sheeh pajooti Bakkari, maradi hoie harh harh hassi, Ak Dhatura khadian kuh kuh khal ukhal vinassi, Maas Khan gal wad ke, haal tinada kaun hovassi. (Vaar 25-7)

Means the goat says, "I was eating Ak and Dhatura plants (weed plants found in India) for whole of my life, to which no body else liked to eat. And even then I am being brutally killed and my skin being ripped, What will happen to those who cut my throat and eat my meat?

At some other place, Bhai Sahib talks about goat being cut by butcher to be eaten :

"kuhe Kassai Bakkari, lai loon seekh mass proyia" Hass hass bole kuhidi, khade ak haal eh hoyia, Maas khan gal churi de, haal tinada kaun aloyia" (Vaar 37-21)

Means: Goat is being killed, cut into pieces and salt being spread on the pieces. While being killed goat says this all happened to me while I was just eating Ak plant (weed found in India's desert fields). In last line goat puts a question, what will be the fate of those in the court of god who cut my throat with a knife and eat my meat?

Bhai Gurdas Ji in Vaar 31 gives strong warning against eating meat. He said, due to some good doings in previous births, Pootna (a witch who tried to poison Krishna Ji) was forgiven. But don't take it as that act of poisoning others is acceptable. And due to some pious acts in previous births and grace of Lord, Sadhana the butcher was forgiven (there is mention about him in Gurubani too, later on he became bhagat). But it should not be interpreted as, that killing animals and eating their meat (word "Bhanga" here) is acceptable. Please read the following lines of Bhai Sahib Ji:
"Jekar udhari pootna, Wihu pialan kam na changa, Je Kassai udharia, jeean ghai na khaiye Bhanga" (Vaar 31-5)

(Thanks to www.panthkhalsa.org for these quotes).

In SGGS banee which none of us can deny, there are also lots of tuks that say it is important not to eat meat. "Kabeer, jee jo maraahi jor kar, kahitay hai jo halal. Daftar daee jab kaid hai, hoigaa koun havaal" Meaning, those that used force and kill and call it halal, after going to the court of god, what will be their state? Here it may be argued that this tuk relates to halal, but think about it. Isn't force used in killing any animal for meat? Banee says "Parthai saakhee mahaa purakh bolday, saanjhee sagal jhaanai" meaning, what mahaapurakhs say applies to all, not just who they are specifically talking too. Here this line is addressed to Muslims, but it also applies too all who eat meat. . "Kabeer joree keeay julm hai, khaitaa naao halaal. Daftar laykhaa mangeeay tab hoigo koun havaal". Also, "Kabeer, jor keeaa so jolm hai, lay jabaab khudai. Daftar lykhaa neeksai mar muhai mohai khaii” meaning it is evil to use force and kill, god will certainly take you to task for it. When you must present your deeds in the court of god, you will face blows to the face. And "kabeer, bhaang maachulee suraapaan, jo jo praanee khai, teerath barat naym keeayai sabhai rasaatal jai” here Kabeer jee clearly states eating meat, fish and liqour is wrong and religion is not possible while eating these. "Bayd katayb kaho mat jhootay, jhoota jo na bichaarai. jo sabh mai eayk khudai kahit ho, to kio murgee maarai." meaning, the Semitic and Hindu scriptures aren't false, false is he who does not reflect on them. If they say that there is god in all, then why do you kill a chicken? Finally, Bhagat Kabeer jee says "Kabeer, khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa maih amrit loan. Hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kutaavai koun” meaning it is good to eat kicharee (mixture of rice and pulses), that has been tastefully prepared with salt. Who should risk having their throat cut (in the after life) just for a meal of meat and bread?

Mercy is of utmost importance in gurmat "daya jaanai jee kee kich pun daan karai" from aasaa dee vaar tells us to have mercy on all living things. Guru jee also tells us "dookh naa dayee kisai jee, pat sio ghar jaavo" give pain to no living thing. go home with honour. Athsath teerath sagal punn jeey dayaa parwaan: Going to the 78 places of pilgrimage, of greater merit and acceptance is having mercy upon living things.

I could give hundreds of tuks on the importance of mercy in gurmat. There is no mercy in killing an animal if there are hundreds of other things we can eat. Plants feel no pain, they don't move or squirm when we harvest them. I know a screaming goat can feel the pain when I kill it. Plants have no nervous system. Plants are a life form that can't feel pain. Animals are not as such. Many brothers/sisters may say that Maas Maas kar moorakh jhagray shabad makes meat ok. No. This shabad tells the sanyaasees that vegetarianism is not a religion. It will not bring muktee. It criticises those who wish to call vegetarianism the greatest religion. I could translate this shabad and show this, but I'll leave it for now. If someone wants though, I would be happy to translate all shabads that meat eaters want to use for support and show that they don't even begin to support meat. I hope I haven’t hurt anyone's feelings and just wish everyone would be brave to find the truth and then accept it.

A flawed article from start to finish.

The alleged Hukamnama by Guru Hargobind ji has never been verified.

It reamains the proverbial rabbit out of the hat.:whisling:

 

[Nim_23]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]To read full article go to:[/FONT]
http://www.sikhs.org/guru1.htm
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When the Guru visited Kurukshetra in Haryana, a big fair was being held at the holy tank to celebrate the solar eclipse. There were a large number of pilgrims all over the country. On his arrival at the fair, Guru Nanak had Mardana cook them a meat dish of a deer presented to them by one of his followers. Upon finding that meat was being cooked on the holy premises, a large angry crowd gathered in anger to attack the Guru for what they thought amounted to sacrilege (Bhai Mani Singh, Gyan Ratnavali, pg. 123). Upon hearing the angry crowd Guru Nanak responded;[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Only fools argue whether to eat meat or not. They don't understand truth nor do they meditate on it. Who can define what is meat and what is plant? Who knows where the sin lies, being a vegetarian or a non- vegetarian?" (Malhar)[/FONT]

Time to a set up a thread about the highly controversial "Meat" topic.

Please discuss.

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

That Huqam Nammah was OK at that time as in Bihar we need to do Naam Abhyas and Meat and fish could be some problem for the beginer.

 

[Randip Singh]

Gurfateh

That Huqam Nammah was OK at that time as in Bihar we need to do Naam Abhyas and Meat and fish could be some problem for the beginer.

Brother......no other Sikh scholar worth his salt has refered to this.

I mean come on...Bhai Randhir Singh (of AKJ) fame and staunch vegetarian all of a sudden uncovers this Hukamnama........I doon't think so..:whisling:

 

[kds1980]

is that hukamnama founded by bhai randhir singh ?

 

[J.A.T.T]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]To read full article go to:[/FONT]
http://www.sikhs.org/guru1.htm

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When the Guru visited Kurukshetra in Haryana, a big fair was being held at the holy tank to celebrate the solar eclipse. There were a large number of pilgrims all over the country. On his arrival at the fair, Guru Nanak had Mardana cook them a meat dish of a deer presented to them by one of his followers. Upon finding that meat was being cooked on the holy premises, a large angry crowd gathered in anger to attack the Guru for what they thought amounted to sacrilege (Bhai Mani Singh, Gyan Ratnavali, pg. 123). Upon hearing the angry crowd Guru Nanak responded;[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Only fools argue whether to eat meat or not. They don't understand truth nor do they meditate on it. Who can define what is meat and what is plant? Who knows where the sin lies, being a vegetarian or a non- vegetarian?" (Malhar)[/FONT]

Here's the full quote from Guru Granth Sahib.

"The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom. What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin? It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering. Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night. They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom. O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said. They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts. They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat." - Guru Granth Sahib (Page 1289)

 

[J.A.T.T]

Anyway, why do some Sikhs try so hard to make vegetarians look good and make meat-eating Sikhs look bad for?

Man, it is okay to eat meat if you want to. There isn't a rule in Sikhi that states that eating meat is wrong.

Sometimes these vegetarian Sikhs remind me of Brahmin Hindus because how they both preach about how wrong it is to eat meat while being vegetarian makes you more religious and spiritual, which by the way is NOT true at all.

 

[Nim_23]

I agree with you. Not all vegetarians who think they make more pious people are more pious.

I myself prefer vegetarian food to meat. However, it is an individual thinking or preference to consume it.

I have only read in one of Sikh 4 taboos that we are not to eat halal meat.

If I can scan the poster where I read this. I will definitely scan it and put it up for all to see soon.

Same goes for Sikhs who are modern and those with turbans. Some Sikh people think that having a turban means you are respecting/following your religion.

BUT how many of these turban men are actually following the religion?

They have been seen smoking and consuming alcohol outside with turbans on their heads and even womanizing.

I think a Sikh with a turban seen doing such things are doing a bigger sin than modern Sikhs.

No offence to what I say. I welcome any comments.

 

[Randip Singh]

is that hukamnama founded by bhai randhir singh ?

Apparently Bhai Randhir Singh presented this evidence to Ganda Singh, and no other credible scholar since then has verified this source.