Yogism Meditation, Why I Do Not Do It. Anymore

[BhagatSingh]

Re: Meditation, Why I do not do it.....anymore

Sat Nam

I have always struggled with the kind of meditation where you sit and empty your mind. I just can't settle down into it.

I can do it in short bursts but can't keep it up for long. I find replacing one's thoughts with Waheguru Waheguru to be slightly easier, and it can be carried into other activities like Seva.

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has a wonderful way to meditate in every moment. Remembering the Name of God is a really beneficial way to meditate.

Mr Sikhnet did an article on using waheguru audio from Sikhnet for simran & I have been using several of them. The monotone versions get stuck in my head like and I keep humming Waheguru with it all day.

It seems that meditation with Waheguru is soaking my parched spirit. I guess I need to feed my spirit as much as I need to feed my body. I think Harry ji thinks its more useful if a person goes out into the world and gives of him/herself rather than being alone with God. But I have been learning that sometimes we need to humble ourselves to become the receivers. In order to give, someone needs to be the receiver. I see the Divine One as the Giver, but also the Receiver. That came from the Nitnem.

That opened my eyes when I realized I only valued giving, but that I need to allow God to give to me through me sometimes also. Meditation seems to be about filling up the tank with gas or feeding oneself. If I deny food to my body, mind or spirit, I am not an effective giver. Does that make sense?

:singhsippingcoffee:

Wah wah gobind singh ape gur chela (giver and receiver).

 

[namjiwankaur]

Harry ji

forgive me if I come across as obtuse,

Obtuse? No way! Quite the opposite actually. You are an obviously an intelligent man who spends a lot of time reflecting on how to make the world a better place in whatever way you can. That is admirable and inspirational. Nothing is obtuse about you at all, bro!

I think everyone has an individual take on maya, for me it is not as illusory as it possibly should be. Maya can mean the whole world is an illusion, but to me, maya represents wealth earned through non sikhi means, huge cars driven for the wrong reasons, drugs, alcohol, cheap sex,

Maya, no doubt, has many layers. I bet we are both right and other people with other takes on maya are also probably right. I agree lust and desire cause us to crave through the ego and lure us into the illusion that our ego's desires are important.

I do not feel the world is an illusion, I feel it is our role as Sikhs to nurture the world and its inhabitants, in a very real fashion.

And I think the way we view the world changes as we contemplate on various things. We are both working through illusion in our own way. I also believe every human being, animal and tree is sacred. I'm just saying the would we see with our earthly eyes is only part of Supreme Reality.

The Naam is not something I could meditate on, the Naam, to me, is a state of mind that is connected to Creator, I know when I am in Naam, and I know when I am not in Naam.

It really doesn't matter how we connect to the Naam as long as we do it. And it doesn't mean ppl who don't live in Naam are less valuable. Its actually sad to see that some people go through life missing Divine Beauty.

When my puppy is licking my face, and I can see by his eyes that there is so much love there, I find myself in Naam, when my puppy soils himself on my boot, I could be in Naam, I should be in Naam, but I tend not to be.

When I am eating healthy, sleeping well, and my my mind has only thoughts of sewa and love, then I am in Naam, when I am eating rubbish, sleeping poorly, and thinking only of food and sex, then I am not.

Its important to nourish all parts of us. When you eat well and sleep well you accomplish what others do with meditation. You help yourself be in a place where seva is possible. Even eating can be a form of meditation. There are so many ways to get to the same result.

Correct, but she is still an old woman, that much is not maya, not to me anyway, I find it important not to lose sight of the fact that she is an old woman, I find such keeps me grounded, and doing what I do, for the right reasons,

I don't mean it in a black and white way. I mean there is more going on than meets the eye.

crumbs thats too complicated for me! Im just helping an old woman, nothing more, nothing less. I am not trying to meet soul to soul, I am seeing someone in need of help, and I am doing my duty as a Sikh to help.

Of course!

For instance, at this very moment, there is a fly that is annoying the hell out of me, and as soon as I finish this post, it is going to get it.

I tend to be very Jain about that kind of thing. I avoid stepping on ants and I rescued a caterpillar yesterday.

Let us say for instance you came across a man raping a woman, now, according to Confusedji, a very learned man who is a sort of Buddhist, the sympathy should lie with the man, if you see Creator in the man and the woman, who do you help, I see a man raping a woman.

Of course, we help the woman.

There is a hadith (a saying of the Prophet Muhammad) where the Prophet says to a group of followers, "You must help both the oppressor and the oppressed." Of course the people respond, "We know to help the oppressed, but how do we help the oppressor?" The Prophet replies, "By stopping him."

I have been the victim. I forgave the perpetrators of the abuse...many years later. I don't mean I said it was ok what they did. Years and years of healing helped me get to the place where I saw my abusers were flawed just like everyone else is flawed in some way and they were very ill.

I often defended my mother against one abuser. I beat on the abuser's chest as a 9 year old. My little sister would go hide in the bedroom, but my instinct and love for my mom caused me to turn into a warrior for my mom.

I correspond with a man who is serving a life term through a penpal program. I don't know what he did. We were told we shouldn't ask and let them share the details when and if they felt comfortable. My penpal has become a dear friend. He also has PTSD after a childhood filled with abuse. He made some serious mistakes. If he killed someone I loved, I might not be able to write him, but this guy has reformed himself. He one of the kindest men I know! It won't get him out of jail, but I believe he has worked through some heavy duty karma.

I do try to say, "there but for the grace of God go I."

Love,
Nam Jiwan peacesign

 

[BhagatSingh]

again, we are possibly talking about something different. The Naam is not something I could meditate on, the Naam, to me, is a state of mind that is connected to Creator, I know when I am in Naam, and I know when I am not in Naam.

Harry ji, stick to the meaning of a word. I think it will avoid a lot of confusion in some of your conversations. Naam = name, yes it is more profound when you meditate on it but it is still a name. You meditate on Naam, The Name. You call it out, speak with fear and love. You cannot be IN the name unless you started meditating on it and literally find yourself, your sense of Self to be in the name you were speaking out i.e. the collapse of subject-object (you-name) duality. I am pretty sure you are not referring to this phenomenon ...or are you? Even if you were you would simply call it meditating on Naam.

Similarly on a different thread, you referred to Hukam as consonance. It is not consonance. It is a command. Your willingness to obey it, to not put up any resistances is consonance. Consonance is hukam rajai chalna. With meditation this becomes easier to do.

Now I am actually curious about your experience of meditation, as you described in this thread and previously in other threads. I have some questions. Maybe I can learn something from you in this area.

when I finish, I feel alive, happy

1. Does it relieve your suffering for the day or week or are you almost always free from suffering to notice?

I am sitting on a virtual mountain top, and then all I can see is blackness, I feel like I have an eagle eye view of the universe

2. Do you experience the planets and eagle eye view with eyes closed or eyes open? or both? How does it change with different positions, bodily movements, eyes open vs eyes closed, etc..

I am in complete control, I surf the rings of Saturn, I dig deep under the red sands of Mars

3. Can you land on a planet in a different galaxy? How do you travel from one planet to the next?

I hear voices, whispers, singing

4. What are the voices you hear? What are they saying/singing?

it goes on for hours and hours

5. How many hours exactly? What's the longest time?

6. What are the bodily sensations that arise during your experiences?

7. Who is Harry during this experience?

8. You speak highly of seva. How many hours of seva do you do per week? How is your experience of that? What is your longest seva session?

Cheers

 

[Harry Haller]

Bhagat Singhji,

Harry ji, stick to the meaning of a word. I think it will avoid a lot of confusion in some of your conversations. Naam = name, yes it is more profound when you meditate on it but it is still a name

I and others would disagree with you

What is Naam? - YouTube

Similarly on a different thread, you referred to Hukam as consonance. It is not consonance. It is a command. Your willingness to obey it, to not put up any resistances is consonance. Consonance is hukam rajai chalna. With meditation this becomes easier to do.

I wrote that Hukam is consonance for ease of understanding. To obey Hukam is to be in consonance, but disagree that it is an order, it is simply a choice. The only order that I would subscribe its meaning to would be as in the 'order of the world' rather than 'you will do this or that', however, a new thread on Hukam, and the meaning of would be most welcome.

Now I am actually curious about your experience of meditation, as you described in this thread and previously in other threads. I have some questions. Maybe I can learn something from you in this area.

Why is it everytime I see the phrase, 'so i can learn something from you', it normally means someone is getting ready to give you a good kicking lol lol lol

1. Does it relieve your suffering for the day or week or are you almost always free from suffering to notice?

I suffer from an extremely agitated mind, however with understanding, this is improving. The act as described is only good for the moment, once the meditation is over, the agitation returns.

2. Do you experience the planets and eagle eye view with eyes closed or eyes open? or both? How does it change with different positions, bodily movements, eyes open vs eyes closed, etc..

eyes closed and sitting in the bath

3. Can you land on a planet in a different galaxy? How do you travel from one planet to the next?

I fly, like a shooting star. I know the rings of saturn, and I know the earth is red on mars, I am simply surfing through my brain.Obviously they are not faithful in any other way than how I imagine them

4. What are the voices you hear? What are they saying/singing?

I never am able to work that out, all I hear are whispers, faint singing, nothing definitive

5. How many hours exactly? What's the longest time?

3 maybe 4, I tended to lose track of time

6. What are the bodily sensations that arise during your experiences?

wonder, amazement

7. Who is Harry during this experience?

Harry is free

8

. You speak highly of seva. How many hours of seva do you do per week? How is your experience of that? What is your longest seva session?

From the moment I awake, to the moment I sleep, I try my best to be available and helpful to all Creation. Even the pesky fly I have not had the heart to kill yet. I see no point in writing about Sikhism, and debating about Sikhism, if in the course of your day, it is not practiced. As I have a shop, there are many opportunities to do seva, from generous discounting for those not so well off, free upgrades, warranties (we offer 30 days, but to date have covered pc's brought back well after a year), giving lifts to people, free installs for elderly, etc. The machine humming away behind me, should be a standard pc 2.8G/1Gram/40GHD/CD, but has morphed into 3G/1Gram/80Ghd/DVD/DVDRW/Wifi,
Each time I do something, I feel a sense that my life is not worthless, that there was some point to my birth, the agitation slowly gets better, not just for a while, but permanently.

It is no great loss for me to behave like this, I still make a living, you do not need to screw people to make a living, and it is not a command, or an order I behave like this, it makes me genuinely happy to help others, but then, in my previous life, I took from others, corrupted others, ruined lives, I was greedy, selfish. It is the acts of my past that cause me agitation, it is my desire to help others now that soothes it.

I have stated this purely as you have asked, my agitation is increasing with what I am stating, as every act I have written about no longer counts towards my soothing process, it has now become an act for another purpose, that of putting me in a better light to others, which is neither the spirit not the purpose of the act. :angryyoungkaur: lol

There is one area that I fail miserably, and that is my wife, she makes me look like an amateur , a nurse, she works very long hours, often for free, and by the time we both get home, we are both so tired we never seem to have anything left for each other. what little we do have, is spent with the animals, and with two new puppies, by the time we both go to bed, we are loved out! It is a shame and a pity, in a way, I wish we both loved the world a bit less, so as not to be so empty in the evenings, it bothers me, having to share her with the world, and sometimes I think she feels the same way.

 

[BhagatSingh]

What is Naam? - YouTube[/URL]

Well he is making the same mistake as you are, with one difference. The state Guruka Singh ji describes is "a state which comes as a result of meditating on Naam". It may arise in other ways but since he is preaching this particular technique which involves meditating on Naam, he shortens it to state of Naam. What it actually is, is the state of Sehaj or Anand, etc. "I am in Sehaj." "I am in Anand." Surat is another. "I have achieved Surat".

It's a state of peace.

You wouldn't say "I am in the state of faith". You say "I have faith" or "The state I am in is where one is full of faith". Same sort of thing with Naam.

I wrote that Hukam is consonance for ease of understanding. To obey Hukam is to be in consonance, but disagree that it is an order, it is simply a choice. The only order that I would subscribe its meaning to would be as in the 'order of the world' rather than 'you will do this or that', however, a new thread on Hukam, and the meaning of would be most welcome.

Hukam is that which occurs and the way you respond to it because God has commanded that it will occur and that you will respond to it a particular way. The former is atheistic, the latter is theistic.

Why is it everytime I see the phrase, 'so i can learn something from you', it normally means someone is getting ready to give you a good kicking lol lol lol

Harry ji,
I have had the same experience. So I was careful to use it where I meant it. You answers raise more questions so I will ask until one of us is exhausted lol. I hope you play along. If you haven't done it, try it out and then answer. I actually want you to experiment a bit and explore different areas. I am interested in knowing your experience as I don't have such experiences when I meditate.

I suffer from an extremely agitated mind, however with understanding, this is improving. The act as described is only good for the moment, once the meditation is over, the agitation returns.

Humans can feel several emotions at once and they sometimes become tangled. What feelings are present in your agitation?

eyes closed and sitting in the bath

What about with eyes open? How is it like with eyes open?

I fly, like a shooting star. I know the rings of saturn, and I know the earth is red on mars, I am simply surfing through my brain.Obviously they are not faithful in any other way than how I imagine them

Have you ever stopped in space, in the darkness and emptiness? How's that like?

I never am able to work that out, all I hear are whispers, faint singing, nothing definitive

What emotions do they convey?

3 maybe 4, I tended to lose track of time

No more questions here.

wonder, amazement

Ok but what sensations arise in the body? where do they arise? the skin? the gut? some other organ...

Harry is free

Is Harry free outside of meditation?

8
From the moment I awake, to the moment I sleep, I try my best to be available and helpful to all Creation. Even the pesky fly I have not had the heart to kill yet. I see no point in writing about Sikhism, and debating about Sikhism, if in the course of your day, it is not practiced. As I have a shop, there are many opportunities to do seva, from generous discounting for those not so well off, free upgrades, warranties (we offer 30 days, but to date have covered pc's brought back well after a year), giving lifts to people, free installs for elderly, etc. The machine humming away behind me, should be a standard pc 2.8G/1Gram/40GHD/CD, but has morphed into 3G/1Gram/80Ghd/DVD/DVDRW/Wifi,
Each time I do something, I feel a sense that my life is not worthless, that there was some point to my birth, the agitation slowly gets better, not just for a while, but permanently.

It is no great loss for me to behave like this, I still make a living, you do not need to screw people to make a living, and it is not a command, or an order I behave like this, it makes me genuinely happy to help others, but then, in my previous life, I took from others, corrupted others, ruined lives, I was greedy, selfish. It is the acts of my past that cause me agitation, it is my desire to help others now that soothes it.

Yeah who would have thought that if you simply give things away you'll be happy? You don't need the next gen Ipad, Blackberry, or whatever it is. The consumer culture creates a lot of suffering.

BTW what you are describing is ਦਾਨ - charity, not ਸੇਵਾ - service/labour. There's a bit of a difference there.

I have stated this purely as you have asked, my agitation is increasing with what I am stating, as every act I have written about no longer counts towards my soothing process, it has now become an act for another purpose, that of putting me in a better light to others, which is neither the spirit not the purpose of the act. :angryyoungkaur: lol

There is no other here, it's only you. If you find that you are agitated when you respond, look into it, and if it's there, stop and step away. Only respond when you are at peace or if you develop a peaceful mind from the conversation.

There is one area that I fail miserably, and that is my wife, she makes me look like an amateur , a nurse, she works very long hours, often for free, and by the time we both get home, we are both so tired we never seem to have anything left for each other. what little we do have, is spent with the animals, and with two new puppies, by the time we both go to bed, we are loved out! It is a shame and a pity, in a way, I wish we both loved the world a bit less, so as not to be so empty in the evenings, it bothers me, having to share her with the world, and sometimes I think she feels the same way.

Both of you count as the world. If you really want to spend time together, what's REALLY stopping you?

 

[namjiwankaur]

Harry ji and all SPNekaurhugrs

Thanks for sharing the video, Harry ji. Naam is a verb not a noun. I am working on a post to my blog based on the video.

I think you may want to rearrange your priorities so you and your wife can spend more time feeling close and embraced by the love you share. I am doing some things in this category myself with various loved ones in my life.

I am reading a book by a Sikh right now on spiritual practice. Yesterday I read the chapter on her marriage ceremony. Sikhi teaches when a couple marry they are two people with one soul. I think its always easier to be that one soul in the beginning of a marriage, but as years go by, things get really comfortable and we sometimes take the relationship for granted (I am working a lot on this).

I am giving advice you didn't ask for, but I felt some sadness (my own and also empathy) that called me to share what I did.

As everyone knows, I am a Sufi (who is, like you, living the Sikhi lifestyle & who feels like a better Sufi when living the Sikhi lifestyle!). So not to evangelize about Muhammad, pbuh, but to share some of his wisdom, I want to share this.

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (saws) as saying: "Of the money that you spend as a contribution in Allah's path, or to set free a slave, or as charity given to a needy, or to support your family, the one yielding the greatest reward is that which you spend on your family." [Sahih Muslim]

I think the reason for Muhammad, pbuh, taught this is because he was aware that it is easy to fall into a routine in life where we put our families lower and lower on the list or we feel giving to our family is somehow less valuable than giving to those in the community. But it is because we give (money, love, tolerance, patience, friendship, food, etc) to our families that our family will not need charity from anyone else.

One of my favorite hadith is:

The Prophet pbuh said, "Even a smile is charity."

I'm wondering what is written on charity and caring for ones family in SGGS or in stories of the Gurus? Please share with me, all.

 

[Harry Haller]

Bhagatji

I am more than happy to play, however I have just lost a long post in reply, and work calls. Is this what you earthlings call Hukam ? , I will have to retype later

lol lol lol

 

[Harry Haller]

Well he is making the same mistake as you are, with one difference.

yes, we are all wrong, and you are correct lol , let as agree to disagree on this one

Hukam is that which occurs and the way you respond to it because God has commanded that it will occur and that you will respond to it a particular way

err that sounds more like fate, and if this was the case, why does it appear we have a choice between being Gurmukh and manmukh? or is there no choice, is it all pre ordained?
I do not think so...I think we have free will.

I am interested in knowing your experience as I don't have such experiences when I meditate.

hmmm I don't think so, its a trap Batman! I think you feel I have embellished my experience, and wish to prove it.

Humans can feel several emotions at once and they sometimes become tangled. What feelings are present in your agitation?

A feeling of wrong that I have done to others in my past, and continue to do so. An inability to see the present, anger at being given thought processes I have to try and understand, happiness at being given thought processes I have to try and understand.

What about with eyes open? How is it like with eyes open?

never tried it

Have you ever stopped in space, in the darkness and emptiness? How's that like?

No, I am having too much fun allowing my brain to be free.

What emotions do they convey?

unease, slight fear

Ok but what sensations arise in the body? where do they arise? the skin? the gut? some other organ...

none, everything I feel is mental, I am detached from my body

Is Harry free outside of meditation?

only on death

BTW what you are describing is ਦਾਨ - charity, not ਸੇਵਾ - service/labour. There's a bit of a difference there.

not at all, at present I am wasting 3 hours trying to retrieve photos from a HD, no charge, all labour intensive, all time spent assisting, as opposed to chanting, or flying to Mars, for a customer that came in this morning crying her eyes out.

There is no other here, it's only you. If you find that you are agitated when you respond, look into it, and if it's there, stop and step away. Only respond when you are at peace or if you develop a peaceful mind from the conversation.

you misunderstand, every deed I have mentioned here, has been negated by the mention of it. Now that I have shared it with you, it is meaningless. However you asked, and I have replied.

Both of you count as the world. If you really want to spend time together, what's REALLY stopping you?

fatigue from helping others lol

 

[Ambarsaria]

fatigue from helping others lol

Harry veer I am no expert in all this. Just a thought occurred.

There are two approaches to be. First one can be, you start from near and extend outwards. Second is you start from outward and work towards near. For me both are OK but have different manifestations.

I think you and Sian are taking the second approach. Perhaps mix it up a bit with the first style of doing.mundahug

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[namjiwankaur]

err that sounds more like fate, and if this was the case, why does it appear we have a choice between being Gurmukh and manmukh? or is there no choice, is it all pre ordained?
I do not think so...I think we have free will.

I think we have free will also, but I think that God is still steering the boat that is our soul because soul is the Divine Experience we are mostly unaware we are even experiencing!

I finally realized my brain vainly thinks God must think like me. It tries to say there can't be both free will and a destiny; how vain of me to think I can somehow be equal with God and God's abiliity in any way!

Do you think after all the Creator has created (beings like the albatross and hummingbirds, ants and elephants, redwoods and a four-leafed clover) that SHe can't create a method of free will within destiny and vice versa?

One way I think of it is God lets me think I'm in charge of some things the way a three year old uses her toy vacuum to help vacuum the house. In the end, if God says turn left, I'll be turning left. It seems a grain of sand knows how to worship its Creator without any fuss. Only humans seem to want free will.

not at all, at present I am wasting 3 hours trying to retrieve photos from a HD, no charge, all labour intensive, all time spent assisting, as opposed to chanting, or flying to Mars, for a customer that came in this morning crying her eyes out.

How come you only value your opportunities to give to others and not the opportunities where God through someone or something gives to you? When I chant God's Names, I feel I am in a miraculous place where God and I are speaking as One. So I would never consider it a waste of time. To me, that is sooooo disrespectful of God. Simran is God wanting to remember God. I think it is a conversation with God. When you help the crying customer out, you help God out. When you chant God's Names, inevitably gratitude swells in your heart. Do you not feel the exchange of Divine Gratitude for simran?

Are you humble enough to let God use you as someone on the receiving end? I don't meditate like some do, but it is often described as "listening to God".

How do you listen to God if you don't chant or meditate? Do you think you are the one helping the crying customer? Its not you. Its WaheGuru bring Light into her darkness. You are just the vehicle.

Prayer, meditation and chanting may seem like a waste of time to you, but most people feel that this time focused on Divine Rembrance serves God and allows God to give. Thank You, God for all Your Gifts!

The way my sheikha told me to do it was to serve people as though I am helping God and to work toward realizing that I am God helping God. God loves to give so meditation puts us on the receiving end. God gives to us during meditation and you are saying, "No thank You, God. I don't want your gift."

What better gift can you give to God, but the love of Divine Remembrance in whatever way God makes possible?

you misunderstand, every deed I have mentioned here, has been negated by the mention of it. Now that I have shared it with you, it is meaningless. However you asked, and I have replied.

Why is it negated? It sounds kind of superstitious to me.

Nam Jiwan peacesignkaur

 

[namjiwankaur]

Gurfateh

Ambarsaria ji, its like Waheguru is the Sun. The rays are a path that reaches out, but they also be the path for us to return to the Sun. Whichever direction we walk, we are still blessed by the Light.

Harry veer I am no expert in all this. Just a thought occurred.

There are two approaches to be. First one can be, you start from near and extend outwards. Second is you start from outward and work towards near. For me both are OK but have different manifestations.

I think you and Sian are taking the second approach. Perhaps mix it up a bit with the first style of doing.mundahug

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[BhagatSingh]

yes, we are all wrong, and you are correct lol , let as agree to disagree on this one

Yes. Now you are learning. icecreammunda
Seriously, it's just grammar. I'm merely pointing out the rules, and giving you the correct words to use for your situation.

err that sounds more like fate, and if this was the case, why does it appear we have a choice between being Gurmukh and manmukh? or is there no choice, is it all pre ordained?
I do not think so...I think we have free will.

Try meditating with you eyes open whilst doing seva or an action of some kind like, washing the dishes.

Do a search of pre-ordained in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

hmmm I don't think so, its a trap Batman! I think you feel I have embellished my experience, and wish to prove it.

No you are seeing things. I think you are being honest here and I want you to further explore your consciousness. You get the benefits of doing so and I get the experience. It's a win-win.

A feeling of wrong that I have done to others in my past, and continue to do so. An inability to see the present, anger at being given thought processes I have to try and understand, happiness at being given thought processes I have to try and understand.

So guilt and anger... inquire in to them. Our emotions are very rooted in the body. Where are they located in the body?

never tried it

Try it then, do it with your eyes open. It's a game, change around the rules around as you wish.

No, I am having too much fun allowing my brain to be free.

So much free will you can't control it?

"my brain" hmm... so who are you when your brain, something separate than you is being free?

unease, slight fear

Says a lot.

none, everything I feel is mental, I am detached from my body

I figured you were still in touch, seeing as you started from being in touch with your heartbeat. How does it feel to stay in touch with the heartbeat and continue to be in touch with it for the entire duration? (Hint: try it out)

only on death

not at all, at present I am wasting 3 hours trying to retrieve photos from a HD, no charge, all labour intensive, all time spent assisting, as opposed to chanting, or flying to Mars, for a customer that came in this morning crying her eyes out.

Alright.

you misunderstand, every deed I have mentioned here, has been negated by the mention of it. Now that I have shared it with you, it is meaningless. However you asked, and I have replied.

Ah I see, now I get what you mean by the spotlight. Rest assured Harry ji, you will not be negated if you share something with me whilst maintaining a certain detachment.

fatigue from helping others lol

lol I was gona say something but I'll drop this thread.

 

[Luckysingh]

Gurfateh

Ambarsaria ji, its like Waheguru is the Sun. The rays are a path that reaches out, but they also be the path for us to return to the Sun. Whichever direction we walk, we are still blessed by the Light.

That's a very nice way of describing.

The ''Light'' is very important. Everything in front of us from the colours of the rainbow to the whole maya illusion, all comes from a single origin of light.

 

[Harry Haller]

I think we have free will also, but I think that God is still steering the boat that is our soul because soul is the Divine Experience we are mostly unaware we are even experiencing!

Ok, its important you understand my definition of God, completely non interventionist. God is not steering anything, God is not looking down smiling or grimacing, God has set the rules, we play by them in whatever way we wish.

Do you think after all the Creator has created (beings like the albatross and hummingbirds, ants and elephants, redwoods and a four-leafed clover) that SHe can't create a method of free will within destiny and vice versa?

No, I do not

One way I think of it is God lets me think I'm in charge of some things the way a three year old uses her toy vacuum to help vacuum the house. In the end, if God says turn left, I'll be turning left. It seems a grain of sand knows how to worship its Creator without any fuss. Only humans seem to want free will.

We have all different ways of worship, some have elaborate ceremonies, some go out of their way to be sickeningly humble, I worship through being in consonance with Creation. We either have free will, or we do not. In my belief we have complete free will.

How come you only value your opportunities to give to others and not the opportunities where God through someone or something gives to you? When I chant God's Names, I feel I am in a miraculous place where God and I are speaking as One. So I would never consider it a waste of time. To me, that is sooooo disrespectful of God. Simran is God wanting to remember God. I think it is a conversation with God. When you help the crying customer out, you help God out. When you chant God's Names, inevitably gratitude swells in your heart. Do you not feel the exchange of Divine Gratitude for simran?

To be frank, I would rather stick pins in my eyes than chant God's name. In fact, I find the mumbling of God's name in order to get high, disrespectful. we are all different, I do not seek to impose my views on another...

Are you humble enough to let God use you as someone on the receiving end? I don't meditate like some do, but it is often described as "listening to God".

Why do I need a light show to listen to God, if I want to see God, I look out the window, if I want to listen to God, I talk to people.

How do you listen to God if you don't chant or meditate? Do you think you are the one helping the crying customer? Its not you. Its WaheGuru bring Light into her darkness. You are just the vehicle.

So you can only listen to God through mumbling or meditating?

Prayer, meditation and chanting may seem like a waste of time to you, but most people feel that this time focused on Divine Rembrance serves God and allows God to give. Thank You, God for all Your Gifts!

I thank God through seva, and yes I do believe that prayer, meditation and chanting are a waste of time.

Why is it negated? It sounds kind of superstitious to me.

I have a complete aversion to all superstition, however, I do believe that talking about ones seva negates it. If you are going to do something, do it, forget it, move on, if it is to be used as an after dinner story, or to impress on other people what person you are, or for ego purposes, you may as well not do it. Your intentions are not pure, you are not doing it for Creation, you are doing it for yourself.

We are all different Bhenji, God is my best friend, I love God, and I love Creation, I speak to my inner Godhead all the time, 24/7, no using elaborate chants, or meaningless words, but in plain english, as I would speak to my dearest buddy. I am not in awe, I am not in fear, I do not do things to please God, I only interested in the truth, and truthful living peacesign

 

[Harry Haller]

I think you and Sian are taking the second approach. Perhaps mix it up a bit with the first style of doing.

You have been, and continue to be, a constant source of wisdom. mundahug

 

[Harry Haller]

Yes. Now you are learning.

Seriously, it's just grammar. I'm merely pointing out the rules, and giving you the correct words to use for your situation.

I am indebted to you

Try meditating with you eyes open whilst doing seva or an action of some kind like, washing the dishes.

Err the whole point of this thread is that I see no point in meditation, why would I want to infect my seva?

No you are seeing things. I think you are being honest here and I want you to further explore your consciousness. You get the benefits of doing so and I get the experience. It's a win-win.

I was gona say something but I'll drop this thread.

some people just cant make up their minds lol lol lol lol

 

[namjiwankaur]

Harry ji

I respect your dedication to seva, but there is much more to Sikhi than seva. Seva is important and you are entitled to your own beliefs. You believe you are serving for God, but in reality, God is serving God. This truth is often found through meditation.

All the gifts you have given to others were first God's gifts to you. You received talents and abilities to do what you do. So all you do for others is only God using you as a vehicle to bless someone else.

What I have issue with is how you use insulting words like "mumbling". Simran is a helpful way to achieve spiritual growth according to Sikh teachings. You view it as a waste of time, but that doesn't mean it has no worth for someone else.

The relationship with God goes beyond good deeds. In Hinduism, there are various paths of yoga that define the various methods of getting to the same place. The method that works for you is called "karma yoga" (the path of action). For most Sikhs, there is an aspect of their spirituality that would also be karma yoga (seva/path of action).

Yet there is also Bhakti (path of devotion to God), Raja (path of mindfulness and meditation) and Gnana (path of knowledge). I think Hinduism did a good job coming up with a way to describe the 4 basic paths to God. Many Sikhs, Hindus, Sufis, shamans, etc., practice one of these paths more than the others, but they also include parts of the other paths. I think that balance is an important part of the spiritual life.

You say potahto, others say potayto. I would try to be more tolerant of other ways of knowing God. Words like "mumbling" and "sickeningly humble" would offend a lot of spiritual people and it really shows your own lack of ignorance about meditation, simran and humility. They would view it as intolerance. Meditation doesn't work for you, perhaps, but it works for others. It is much much more than "mumbling".

I think its fine to express your views and opinions, but ultimately God is the One whose laws are the rules of the universe and Sikhi teaches us to remember that with every breath. If others accomplish that through simran and it empowers them in the area of seva, it is as valuable as your seva. Sikhi respects that so many different paths lead to God.


Nam Jiwan

 

[gillgk]

One experiment: try simran out loud with the voice resonating from the heart instead of from the throat. Do it at any time, not just whilst sitting down. Take it as exercise for your heart if all other reasoning fails.

If that is not possible, then perhaps you are where you want to be or where you are supposed to be? You need His grace to move on.

My heart always feels empty after I have fallen and after a good kirtan or simran, I feel that it has "filled".

Can't force naam as you can't force food down a child's throat.
So I try other methods while waiting for naam to be bestowed on to me.

 

[Harry Haller]

Bhenji

I have no ruck with others meditating, it is just not for me. However, I feel a responsibility to those reading this forum to present other options to the Vedic and ritualistic that have penetrated Sikhism. I simply wish to point out that you can be a good Sikh, and still have no interest in repetition of words, and fancy mind games.In SGGS but there are many lines that warn against the pointless ritualistic chanting that some find beneficial.

I am not interested in the chakras, the tenth gate, the divine feelings of bliss, etc etc. I find people that come into Sikhism to explore this, only interested in their own ends, ie, what they can get from it, enlightenment, kundalini yoga, booty shaking round fires, etc

I have always stated my thoughts are at odds with mainstream Sikhi, and I apologise if I have offended you in any way.

Words like "mumbling" and "sickeningly humble" would offend a lot of spiritual people and it really shows your own lack of ignorance about meditation, simran and humility

You may wish to edit your post and take out the word 'lack' 0, as unfortunately it is a compliment as it stands

 

[namjiwankaur]

Sat Nam

Harry ji

You and I are on completely different pages.

Regarding rituals, I also wondered how come there are so many rituals in Sikhi when my first impression of Sikhi was it rejects all ritual as pointless. After studying from the words of the Guru, I see that it is not ritual that is rejected...it is the rejection of empty rituals.

I love the story where Guru Nanak accepts the invitation to pray with some Muslims. Rather than make salat with them, he sits. They criticize him after and he says, "You weren't praying; you were thinking of your horses."

This is what Sikhism rejects. I personally am moved to tears when I watch (I watch via livestream) the chaur waving over the Siri Guru Granth Sahib. For me, it is not an empty ritual. It speaks my Truth; it is the way my heart feels when I come to Siri Guru Granth Sahib, so reverent, so amazed at the way there are endless ways to draw into my heart: wisdom, compassion, hope, love, peace.

as unfortunately it is a compliment as it stands

I have always been sarcastic also, but sometimes sarcasm is a dangerous weapon. If you believe you are called to seva, a big part of seva is respect. It appears you are saying I would not mean to compliment you. That is not true. And to say you are ignorant about simran and its benefits, is not an insult.

You seem to think someone cannot engage in simran and seva simultaneously. How much of the day are you actively engaged in seva? When you're not and even when you are, to keep God's Name on your breath, causes you to see it is God's seva, not your seva. But you, for whatever reason, feel this is a waste of time. Then so be it.

I am working on not being sarcastic because sarcasm can become a mental-bullet. For me, respect is one of the most important virtues. It creates peace, holds marriages together, makes bridges, creates a better world for everyone. I believe a lack of respect is what is ailing humanity most right now.

Frankly, I did mean to tell you that you are ignorant about what happens as a result of Simran, strengthening the chakras, learning about how the energy of our being interacts with the energy around us (this is what makes us one and One). I see a lot of seva in the 3HO community.

Part of my healing is energy work I do with a healer. I used to be very skeptical until I started studying it. What I learned has opened my heart in profound ways. I know a lot more about energy work than you do so that might be why we are not on the same page.

Beyond this, there isn't much more to say on all this.

Nam Jiwan