Misrepresentation Of Gurbani And The Sikh Religion By Vested Interests

[Sinister]

You have no conception of Reality Harjas Kaur
most of what you say holds no basis.

first of all, i bet you cannot even define "hinduism". It is such an diverse and abstract construction.

secondly, you continue to ignore India's indiginous movement of rationality. Long before any Brit set foot in India, Indians themselves were denying spirituality and its experiences!
But thanks for belittling an entire population…as if an advanced civilization like India (which controlled 26% of the worlds GDP back then) was entirely incapable of producing atheists/agnsotics and men of modern of science.

Your prejudices and your myopic constructions of reality put a smug smile on my face.

thirdly, nice Nazi example…you forgot to add that Hitler considered himself a very ‘Spiritual person’ and practiced a *******ed spirituality…after all he did use a swastika (a Hindu symbol) on every bomb he dropped (now im not implying that hitler was a hindu before you jump on me)…ever wondered why he used such strong imagery, shapes?…he considered himself a Roman Catholic. Read his autobiography. A rationalist knows better than to challenge the entire world, Hitler was no rationalist...he was insane!

Millions of people have been killed and enslaved in the name of ‘spirituality’ and Millions have been killed and enslaved for greed and materialism.

the only certainty is the existence of uncertainty
and in that lies the spirituality.

your religious preferences are your own, and they are open for ridicule by any...nothing in this world should be endowed with more respect than the other. and nothing should be immune to scrutiny and examination.

now it would presumptous of you to believe i have not travelled the path of spirituality:

Yes, many ancient practices led to nothing positive at all. And many ancient practices have even become the basis of modern medicine. But to give all credit to Western culture is self-hatred and short sighted. And your complete disregard of Hinduism and portrayal of anything Hindu in the most negative light imaginable is really self-hatred, after all, who are the majority of "Sikhs" descended from?


WHO TAUGHT YOU TO HATE YOURSELVES?

nobody hates themselves...you are just imagining things

How about respect and tolerance for starters? That usually makes for healthy societies.

agreed for tolerance...but dont ask for my respect...thats reserved to those that earn it!

Call that victimization if you like. Victims don't speak out in self-defense.

victims dont resort to self-defense?

Yes, sadly extremism comes in all shapes and sizes and religious varieties. What is pertinent to this forum is what pertains to Sikh philosophy, and why Sikh communities openly promote, advocate and tolerate hate... in the name of defense of Sikhism? Because that's just the language of extremism, and it does in fact promote violence.

welcome to the crappy world.
I have a question? if you went to an evangelical site and told them that there jesus was jewish (which he was) ... how would you be greated?

So why does it always come down to a Sikh versus Hindu issue? Why is there no balance and unity?

hindu extremists....sikh extremists

doesnt get more balanced than that!

Aren't Sikhs and Hindus from the same country?

A country that the mughals and british constructed...before that they were NOT a big happy family like you make them out to be.

From the same families? share the same history? What the hell? Why do Sikhs hate Hindus? It's ridiculous.

everything happens for a reason...think...and reflect.

Two wrongs don't make a right, that only makes a justification of wrong.

two wrongs sure put on a hell of a show though

The British Skin heads hate you more than you hate Hindus. Learn some self-respect.

a middle-aged female westerner that converted to sikhism for a couple of months is going to teach me about respecting myself for who I am? irony or irrationality?

go read my post on "internet addiction"...who knows might help ya out! :wink:

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

You have no conception of Reality Harjas Kaur
most of what you say holds no basis.

first of all, i bet you cannot even define "hinduism". It is such an diverse and abstract construction.

Why do you disparage and insult what I can and cannot do? Do you falsely believe that kind of talk lends some credibility to you? Hinduism is primarily of those faiths originating within the Indus Valley and while incorporating variety of sects, does so because of a philosophical tolerance not present in Abrahamic faiths. Moreover, the large majority of Hindu sects are Vedantic, meaning believe in the sruti, revealed truth of the Vedas, and hence also called Vedanta. Trying to make Hindu religion no longer categorizable due to variations and differences can only be achieved through negation of commonalities. But since that is the basis for defining Sikh religion, feel free to continue.

secondly, you continue to ignore India's indiginous movement of rationality. Long before any Brit set foot in India, Indians themselves were denying spirituality and its experiences!

But thanks for belittling an entire population…as if an advanced civilization like India (which controlled 26% of the worlds GDP back then) was entirely incapable of producing atheists/agnsotics and men of modern of science.

I don't happen to agree with you that atheist = men of science. And I don't happen to agree with you that Advaita for example and Buddhism, while somewhat atheistic in structure are not well within acceptability and respect by Sanatana Dharma.

Your prejudices and your myopic constructions of reality put a smug smile on my face.

Why do you think dishing out personal insults and belittlement = the delusion of education?

thirdly, nice Nazi example…you forgot to add that Hitler considered himself a very ‘Spiritual person’ and practiced a *******ed spirituality…after all he did use a swastika (a Hindu symbol) on every bomb he dropped (now im not implying that hitler was a hindu before you jump on me)…ever wondered why he used such strong imagery, shapes?…he considered himself a Roman Catholic. Read his autobiography. A rationalist knows better than to challenge the entire world, Hitler was no rationalist...he was insane!

Antisemitism wasn't a Hitler phenomenon. It wasn't even a German phenomenon. Antisemitism is a thousand year old phenomenon born out of centuries long marginalization, character assassination and propaganda against Jews as a community unworthy of respect.

If Hitler was not a Hindu, as you acknowledge, than to what purpose are you discussing the swastika symbol (as Hindu), except to arouse some pretended Hindu association for purposes of discrediting Hinduism as you are prone to do? I used Nazi Germany as an illustration of the racist and colonial intolerance of Western societies which have for hundreds of years produced literature denigrating the inferiority of indigenous cultures and indigenous religions as "worthy of extinction." I find such prejudices fairly commonplace, even appearing on this very forum, and hence relevant to consider. Didn't Einstein say "Science without God was blind and God without science was lame?"

Millions of people have been killed and enslaved in the name of ‘spirituality’ and Millions have been killed and enslaved for greed and materialism.
the only certainty is the existence of uncertainty
and in that lies the spirituality.

your religious preferences are your own, and they are open for ridicule by any...nothing in this world should be endowed with more respect than the other.

Of course if we as a society or spiritual community continue to promote that some people are less worthy of respect than others we will be promoting the kinds of violence already blighting the world. Why be a part of the problem? Why not be a part of the solution?

nobody hates themselves...you are just imagining things


agreed for tolerance...but dont ask for my respect...thats reserved to those that earn it!

Everyone who visits a forum should be accorded reasonable respect and protection from rude flaming, targeting, singling out for ostracism and personal attacks. But that has more to do with the personal maturity of the participants (and moderators) and whether they think certain people holding certain unpopular views are worthy of being treated with disrespect and insult as a means of promoting hostility to their viewpoints. You can disagree with someone's ideas in a way which is not targeting him for insult and ridicule, alas you haven't learned that art. And that is not a respect which has to be earned. It is a basic human dignity to be treated with respect and protected from flaming, targeting and ridicule. Of course humiliation has long been a tactic to silence the unwanted opposition. It's a shame such tactics are promoted and encouraged on a "Sikh spirituality" forum. It says something about the spiritual maturity of Sikhs.

victims dont resort to self-defense?

A victim generally is someone with no appropriate means of self-defense, who is attacked and overwhelmed. When someone has a means of self-defense, they usually defend themselves with dignity, even if they die, as on a battlefield, and hence are no longer "victims." A victim is someone who is victimized, taken advantage of, suffers exploitation and abuse because he has no means or psychological capability to render his own defense. This to be a "victim" is a form of passivity and defenselessness.

welcome to the crappy world.
I have a question? if you went to an evangelical site and told them that there jesus was jewish (which he was) ... how would you be greated?

The world isn't crappy. Your attitude to me is however. Evangelical Christians are generally proud of the Jewish roots of Christianity modernly and you will find neither objection nor opposition except perhaps from blatently racist movements like Christian Identity which is affiliated with the Ku Klux Klan. Even Buddhist sites, while admittedly having a rich philosophy within the Buddhist traditions, will not fail to acknowledge the Hindu origin of Buddhist philosophy. Only the Sikhs are suffering from an inferiority complex of ridiculous proportion as to deny and hate everything Hindu without any "rational" cause. And if there is a rational cause veer ji, please explain it to me in a respectable and calm way. I would very much like to understand the roots of this hostility.

hindu extremists....sikh extremists

doesnt get more balanced than that!

That is the most childish thing I've ever heard.

A country that the mughals and british constructed...before that they were NOT a big happy family like you make them out to be.

I don't deny sectarian issues, but the Kingdom of Maharaja Ranjit Singh was noted for it's cosmopolitan attitudes, it's harmonious blending of populations and in fact it was the British more than the Moghuls who created a society of divisions and sectarian hate for which they have been reviled throughout western scholarship as sowing seeds of discord to manipulate a country.

everything happens for a reason...think...and reflect.


two wrongs sure put on a hell of a show though

Another childish comment pretending to sound intelligent.

a middle-aged female westerner that converted to sikhism for a couple of months is going to teach me about respecting myself for who I am? irony anyone?

Why thank you for promoting Sikhism as only a Punjabi phenomenon. As a child I was taught Sikhism as my aunt and cousins belonged to 3HO. I also learned Catholicism from my mother and Cuanderia from my grandmother. I took amrit about 7 years ago, thank you for negating that. I would also like to add that your wonderful Punjabi forebears had the audacity to come to the West and intermarry with us and create this venerable mixed-breed phenomenon which is so underacknowledged and disrespected by native Punjabis. Your culture is very much a part of our culture. I'm not entirely sure by which I am being disrespected more, for being female, for being middle-aged, for being a westerner, or for being a convert? Can you explain to me please where the rationality lies in that?

By your own admission you are an atheist, and hence not a Sikh. Yet someone who has taken amrit cannot have a reasonable discussion deserving of any respect because I'm female, from the west, middle-aged and a convert? The logic of such a construction eludes me. So does the attempt to discount anything about me as a person. Perhaps you are just defending Punjabiness and think this is the enlightened way to do it, by trashing both Hindu's and Western converts alike as unworthy of respect or equality.

go read my post on "internet addiction"...who knows might help ya out! :wink:

Your attitude of nastiness and continued insults and put downs is really not appreciated. Why I receive 2 infractions on the same post for objecting to comments advocating the destruction of Hindu religion, as falsely claiming I insulted a forum member, while you make insulting threads like these time and again receiving not one single comment advocating even restraint, just continues to reflect the diminishing caliber of SPN as a discussion forum.

 

[Sinister]

you have smearing and victimization down to a science, impressive (maybe you and I are soul mates...opposites always attract)

I'd give a pointed response...but i have more important tasks at hand.

but considering im such nice guy, ill give you a little nibble of what would have been a textbook response:

you doublethink...you think people who leave the sikh faith are insecure (you think they hate themselves for what they are...now who is considering sikhism as a punjabi only affair?...answer-->you!). your rationality cuts dry here...according to your childish definition anybody that converts to the sikh path should also be a victim of self-hate (i was just pointing out YOUR flawed thought patterns...with a rather savvy insult) :2:

 

[Astroboy]

This is an utter lie. And it is extremist talk. If SGPC loses control of Sikhism it will be due to their own corruptions which Punjabis can barely tolerate themselves, and not from some Indian government take over. Moreover, SGPC is a relatively recent innovation which seems to have usurped control over Sikh institutions. It never before existed in history, so why are we according so much inviolability to it now? All SGPC has done as an institution is erode and deny and ban the historical sanatan character of Gursikhi. Rather than seeing sanatana Sikhism as some destruction of Tat Khalsa Ideology, I see it as a rebirth of the original Sikhism of tolerance, unity, and Indic heritage.

Harjas Ji,

Sikhism feels hurt when we 'loose' a born-leader like you. I believe you are the Savva lakh se ek larauu, so why are you derailing yourself. If you want to help mainstream Sikhism then do it by being one. Your method of educating us is not working because it's like showing a cow a stick, the cow will only run away further from what you actually want. Humans are like animals who want to be loved. Pyar de bhukhe.
We really love you very much. You are ours. You're in the image and likeness of the Khalsa. We have our short-comings. We are manmukhs and want to be Gurmukh. We want satsang and want you to be in the middle of it. We need you in our midst.

We need your presence to show us thru soothing words and be immune to personal attacks.
In short, I don't think you'll stand out as much amonst the Hindu community than if you give us your continued support. You can choose to concentrate on ruhani instead of war. The choice is always yours. But Sikhism gives us balance. Sikhism isn't about extreme meditations and ascetism. The fish is given fins to balance itself other than modes of maneuvering. We are like the fish who cannot do without challenges.


Page 156, Line 8
ਸੁਭਰ ਭਰੇ ਨ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਊਣੇ ਜੋ ਰਾਤੇ ਰੰਗੁ ਲਾਈ ਰੇ ॥
सुभर भरे न होवहि ऊणे जो राते रंगु लाई रे ॥
Subẖar bẖarė na hoveh ūṇė jo rāṯė rang lā*ī rė.
Those who are imbued with, and committed to the Lord's Love, are filled to overflowing; they never lack anything.
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

 

[Astroboy]

I asked for strength and God gave me difficulties to make me strong.

I asked for wisdom and God gave me problems to solve.

I asked for prosperity and God gave me brawn and brains to work.

I asked for courage and God gave me dangers to overcome.

I asked for patience and God placed me in situations where I was forced to wait.

I asked for love and God gave me troubled people to help.

I asked for favors and God gave me opportunities.

I asked for everything so I could enjoy life.

Instead, He gave me life so I could enjoy everything.

I received nothing I wanted, I received everything I needed.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

you have smearing and victimization down to a science, impressive (maybe you and I are soul mates...opposites always attract)

I'd give a pointed response...but i have more important tasks at hand.

but considering im such nice guy, ill give you a little nibble of what would have been a textbook response:

you doublethink...you think people who leave the Sikh faith are insecure (you think they hate themselves for what they are...now who is considering Sikhism as a punjabi only affair?...answer-->you!). your rationality cuts dry here...according to your childish definition anybody that converts to the Sikh path should also be a victim of self-hate (i was just pointing out YOUR flawed thought patterns...with a rather savvy insult)

I'm smearing you? That's a good one. I never said people who leave the Sikh faith are insecure. I said SIKHS in general are showing ridiculous oversensitivity and insecurity in relation to anything Hindu. Good grief, do you really think 869,million billion Hindus are going to go away? They are in general, just as Sikhs, very nice people. So why aren't we promoting brotherhood instead of brahmin conspiracies, cow pee and evil Hindutva? My goodness show respect it all comes around again. I have not found not even 1 Hindutva site which disparaged Sikhs the way that Sikhs disparage Hindus.

Anybody who converts? to Sikh path? Don't distort my words trying to be cute. What I do see is a lot of ethnic Indians hating on other ethnic Indians while promoting the inviolable wisdom of the West... and THAT is self-hatred. Why do I recognize this? Because I come from an ethnicity under Western colonial occupation. Self-hatred and cultural and religious inferiority are taught to the entire American society from very early age.

It is shameful that ethnic people should harbor denigrating opinions about themselves, their culture or their religious history. And that DOESN'T mean Sikhs somehow grew up off some vine somewhere and can now look down on Hindus. No one should be looking down on anybody. But consider that a flawed thought pattern and savvy insult if it makes you happy.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Sikhism feels hurt when we 'loose' a born-leader like you. I believe you are the Savva lakh se ek larauu, so why are you derailing yourself. If you want to help mainstream Sikhism then do it by being one. Your method of educating us is not working because it's like showing a cow a stick, the cow will only run away further from what you actually want. Humans are like animals who want to be loved. Pyar de bhukhe.
We really love you very much. You are ours. You're in the image and likeness of the Khalsa. We have our short-comings. We are manmukhs and want to be Gurmukh. We want satsang and want you to be in the middle of it. We need you in our midst.

We need your presence to show us thru soothing words and be immune to personal attacks.
In short, I don't think you'll stand out as much amonst the Hindu community than if you give us your continued support. You can choose to concentrate on ruhani instead of war. The choice is always yours. But Sikhism gives us balance. Sikhism isn't about extreme meditations and ascetism. The fish is given fins to balance itself other than modes of maneuvering. We are like the fish who cannot do without challenges.

These are very nice words veer ji. I don't see how any of you can possibly want me in your midst with derailing of every thread I write and showing so much hostility for simple message of tolerance and peace and unity. What exactly is Khalsa? Is this someone who defends human rights? Supports seva? Promotes unity and world brotherhood? Wants to become a sant and spend time in performing spiritual sadhana to cleanse the inner kalpas?

Or is it some political formulation after the image of the militants?

To sit in your midst does this mean surrendering to extremist views and fanatical talk? Does it mean agreeing that something like Bhagavad-Gita is "disgusting" and "degrading to humanity?"


Veer ji, how can I support what I don't accept is truth? Would you have any respect for me if I did this, just to agree and make people happy? I do not say I am right. I do believe I'm right. Can I act any other way? I read Bhagavad-Gita and I read Gurbani. Both are Gurmat for me. I see no contradiction. Why should I hate either one? Why can't I love beautiful things? I go see sants and do matatek to them. Because I am believing the Gurbani which says I am the dust of the feet of the sants. Why should I be proud? One of the most beautiful things I learned in sadhana from Hindu ashram years ago was to bow down your ego was the beginning of wisdom. Only mainstream Sikhs are saying I can't bow down to anyone but Guru sahib. What if I see Guru sahib in a sant? or a tree? or a flower? Why can't I have a humble faith which isn't part of any institution? It is my conviction that institutions are the death of humble faith.


What am I saying so wrong to hurt all of you? I'm no born leader. If you ever met me you would laugh and laugh. My hairs stick out on the ears and I'm fairly short. I have a voice which is so soft and quiet that what I hear all day from people at work is..."What did you say?" Or worse, "Did you say something?" This is why I like to write it's for all the times that no one can hear me. Someone called me a feminist once with male hormones which continues to amuse me to no end. I think I have never been mistaken for a male in my life. (I think, thats a qualifier). I've also been called iron lady, which also continues to make me laugh. I think if I had a broom people would not even run. I've been considered to be a witch sending curses. I suppose I'm slipping that in after I recite the prayer of Shantideva: "May I be the doctor and the medicine and the nurse for all sick beings in the world until everyone is healed." I suppose if I was cursing them, and then offering to help them heal I would never get out of sansaara, which seems sort of ludicrous way to pray.

You are right, my method of educating is not working. People have the most amazing impressions of me. But I don't have any other methods than simply talking and telling you how I feel and what I think. Perhaps these words will mean something to someone. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what anyone says. What matters is what we become. These tiny words and small thoughts are all part of the sansaara. My life, my identity, whatever I think I can bring you is really nothing much. That is the honest truth of it. I do wish I wouldn't get derailed so often. I'd much rather discuss beautiful poetry, meaningful spiritual teachings, powerful spiritual lessons that have been flowers in the basket of my heart. But it seems months later I'm stuck still trying to defend the validity of something like yoga or Bhagavad-Gita instead of those teachings which make my heart sing. And if I rejected what is so beautiful, then my spirituality would truly be derailed. Why should I do that to win anyone's conditional acceptance? What kind of spiritual teaching bases it's identity on rejection?

How much more can I love you who keep trying to drive me away? Am I not trying to share in the only way I know, the things which I consider precious and meaningful? How did I hurt you veer ji? By rejecting Khalistani philosophy and extremist ideologies, this hurt you? Did you like me better when I was believing in militants and blindly praising Khalistan? And now, I have no acceptance. Now, there is no place in your heart for me when I say it's more spiritual to love people and promote unity and brotherhood and peace.

How can I ever understand you?

We need your presence to show us thru soothing words and be immune to personal attacks.

You know Guruji is perfect. Absolutely perfect and fully Divine, merged in the God-consciousness. And I think if you gave Guruji who is all perfect some of these personal attacks you would meet the Guruji's boot!

But how could any human being ever be immune? When I show you soothing words you guys delete them and annoy me in every way possible. I quote the Gurbani discussing avataars and you drag that to a new thread about "Hindu" avataars. When I try to correct a bad attititude or negative statement I get infractions for insulting one of you. Then you invent a new TOS to make my opinions into some kind of enemy of Sikhism. Seriously what else can I do? Why is it veer ji that you don't want to hear the beautiful things, the esoteric things, the hidden things? I know so many rare things about yoga and occult symbolism in various systems. And no one can stand it. I could answer some of the most complex and difficult questions, and no one can tolerate even the simple statements. My message must not be for any of you, or you would know me and you would recognize my words. And I would be welcome.


I went to see a Hindu sant last week, and had a wonderful time. I sat next to a Radhasoami family and 3HO came and paid their respects as well. The sangat was unbelievably calm and loving. What would be the purpose of staying in the mainstream only to be rejected and reviled time after time? Only to be forced to shun what I love? What message would that send?

In short, I don't think you'll stand out as much amonst the Hindu community than if you give us your continued support.

I was so content to simply bow and be a humble chela of an eternal Love and an eternal Truth. After I received darshan, I felt fear in my stomach and in my chest, chakra areas. I felt it definitely palpating. And when I looked into the eyes of the sant I saw ancient ancient wisdom looking right through my heart. And the message conveyed without words to my mind was this: "Peace. Peace. Bliss. Bliss." And in fact I was in another world for about 3 hours after in perfect silence and stillness. I felt wave after wave of joy. I am only a child veer ji. I'm not much of a teacher.


What on earth can I give any of you besides continued headache? But the truth is, I've never seen such bliss in the Khalistani sangat. I used to think it sad that even the ashrams and monasteries had more peace. Now I understand why. I wish you all the highest peace, and the highest bliss. I wish you all the blessings I've felt and healing besides. There can be no spiritual path if people aren't free to follow their hearts. That's the problem with institutional religious dogmatism and cookie cutter philosophies. The thing which institutions most fear is what is sought most ardently by spiritual seekers. And that is the breaking open of barriers and the transformation of consciousness.

I promise you one thing. I will reject an evil philosophy. But I will never reject any of you.

But Sikhism gives us balance. Sikhism isn't about extreme meditations and ascetism.

I am a Sikh. I don't see why I should abandon what I believe in with all my heart simply because the mainstream rejects it. To me it is truth and real and cherished faith. I put my hope in these spiritual experiences. Just because Gurbani rightly talks against extremes, doesn't mean balanced sadhana doesn't exist. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Mainstream Sikhs have abandoned deep meditation and tapas completely, even when practiced in a balanced way.

Forgive me, but it would seem mainstream Sikhism practices material pursuits and calls it spirituality, while rejecting completely any sadhan of any sant or yoga tradition, or any indigenous tribal wisdom. What mainstream Sikhism has done is strip the sacred experience away by rejecting all of the forms in which it manifests. This isn't true of all forms of Sikhism, but for example when I went to see Sant Baba Ranjit Singh Dadrianwale, there was a man who went mastana during the kirtan... and some of the sangat quickly led him away. Modern Sikhs are as afraid of mystical experience as any atheist. They are distrusting of every psychic opening, denying every esoteric teaching in Gurbani, rejecting all spontaneity. And without spontaneity in praise, you can never break through into ecstacy, can never break out of the bondage of worldly consciousness. Veer ji, no one can experience God in the mind. The mind has to be transcended. This is why we surrender the mind and all it's limitations to reach that limitless place. A religion which is purely intellectual approach, purely rational approach, purely political approach... isn't an approach at all. It's distance. It has no freedom of spirit.

Without dhyaan you have no gyaan. Without withdrawing to some degree from materialism, you will have no spiritual experience. First the physical senses are not the way to perceive spiritual things. So there must be a withdrawal from the senses of some kind, or our spirituality never gets off the ground. This can happen in simran, this can happen in kirtan. It can happen in darshan, it can happen with japa. It can happen with fasting, it can happen with celibacy. There are a thousand ways it can happen. So why would we reject anyone else's spiritual approach as invalid? The God is bigger than human rejection. The Love is always dancing.


Gurbani teaches Surat Shabad Yoga. Putting your consciousness on the vibrating Sound to come into the Presence of the Divine. And the Divine Reality belongs to everybody equally. Not just Sikhs. It's really sad when mainstream Sikhs don't even believe in the Reality of the Sound current, and that is the essence of Sikhism. It is the essence of Naama japa. It is the boat of mukti.

Pingalwara

YouTube - love its AMMA
YouTube - Shamanic experience of a trance
YouTube - Entheo:genesis - Awakening the divine within

Take from me all that is not REAL.​

 

[Astroboy]

At the end of the day it doesn't matter what anyone says. What matters is what we become.

So rightly put and look at those eyes.

I'd much rather discuss beautiful poetry, meaningful spiritual teachings, powerful spiritual lessons that have been flowers in the basket of my heart.

Basket of my heart too. It's amazing why we have this in common.

How much more can I love you who keep trying to drive me away? Am I not trying to share in the only way I know, the things which I consider precious and meaningful? How did I hurt you veer ji?

You haven't hurt me. We all are sensitive towards the negative. Only if we train ourselves to be sensitive to Akaal Purukh, then there would be inner peace and those god intoxicated eyes.


ਪਉੜੀ ॥
पउड़ी ॥
Pa*oṛī.
Pauree:
ਇਕਿ ਕੰਦ ਮੂਲੁ ਚੁਣਿ ਖਾਹਿ ਵਣ ਖੰਡਿ ਵਾਸਾ ॥
इकि कंद मूलु चुणि खाहि वण खंडि वासा ॥
Ik kanḏ mūl cẖuṇ kẖāhi vaṇ kẖand vāsā.
Some pick and eat fruits and roots, and live in the wilderness.
ਇਕਿ ਭਗਵਾ ਵੇਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਜੋਗੀ ਸੰਨਿਆਸਾ ॥
इकि भगवा वेसु करि फिरहि जोगी संनिआसा ॥
Ik bẖagvā vės kar fireh jogī saniāsā.
Some wander around wearing saffron robes, as Yogis and Sanyaasees.
ਅੰਦਰਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਛਾਦਨ ਭੋਜਨ ਕੀ ਆਸਾ ॥
अंदरि त्रिसना बहुतु छादन भोजन की आसा ॥
Anḏar ṯarisnā bahuṯ cẖẖāḏan bẖojan kī āsā.
But there is still so much desire within them-they still yearn for clothes and food.
ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਗਵਾਇ ਨ ਗਿਰਹੀ ਨ ਉਦਾਸਾ ॥
बिरथा जनमु गवाइ न गिरही न उदासा ॥
Birthā janam gavā*ė na girhī na uḏāsā.
They waste their lives uselessly; they are neither householders nor renunciates.
ਜਮਕਾਲੁ ਸਿਰਹੁ ਨ ਉਤਰੈ ਤ੍ਰਿਬਿਧਿ ਮਨਸਾ ॥
जमकालु सिरहु न उतरै त्रिबिधि मनसा ॥
Jamkāl sirahu na uṯrai ṯaribaḏẖ mansā.
The Messenger of Death hangs over their heads, and they cannot escape the three-phased desire.
ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਕਾਲੁ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨੇੜੈ ਜਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਦਾਸਨਿ ਦਾਸਾ ॥
गुरमती कालु न आवै नेड़ै जा होवै दासनि दासा ॥
Gurmaṯī kāl na āvai nėṛai jā hovai ḏāsan ḏāsā.
Death does not even approach those who follow the Guru's Teachings, and become the slaves of the Lord's slaves.
ਸਚਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਮਨਿ ਘਰ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ ਉਦਾਸਾ ॥
सचा सबदु सचु मनि घर ही माहि उदासा ॥
Sacẖā sabaḏ sacẖ man gẖar hī māhi uḏāsā.
The True Word of the Shabad abides in their true minds; within the home of their own inner beings, they remain detached.
ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਨਿ ਆਪਣਾ ਸੇ ਆਸਾ ਤੇ ਨਿਰਾਸਾ ॥੫॥
नानक सतिगुरु सेवनि आपणा से आसा ते निरासा ॥५॥
Nānak saṯgur sėvan āpṇā sė āsā ṯė nirāsā. ||5||
O Nanak, those who serve their True Guru, rise from desire to desirelessness. ||5||

 

[Astroboy]

Page 1376, Line 4
ਕਾਹੇ ਕੀ ਕੁਸਲਾਤ ਹਾਥਿ ਦੀਪੁ ਕੂਏ ਪਰੈ ॥੨੧੬॥
काहे की कुसलात हाथि दीपु कूए परै ॥२१६॥
Kāhė kī kuslāṯ hāth ḏīp kū*ė parai. ||216||
What good is a lamp in one's hand, if he falls into the well? ||216||
Devotee Kabir - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

 

[Astroboy]

The discipline required to attain a higher state of awareness is explained by Guru Ji.


ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
बिलावलु महला १ ॥
Bilāval mehlā 1.
Bilaaval, First Mehl:
ਮਨ ਕਾ ਕਹਿਆ ਮਨਸਾ ਕਰੈ ॥
मन का कहिआ मनसा करै ॥
Man kā kahi*ā mansā karai.
The human acts according to the wishes of the mind.
ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਪਾਪੁ ਉਚਰੈ ॥
इहु मनु पुंनु पापु उचरै ॥
Ih man punn pāp ucẖrai.
This mind feeds on virtue and vice.
ਮਾਇਆ ਮਦਿ ਮਾਤੇ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥
माइआ मदि माते त्रिपति न आवै ॥
Mā*i*ā maḏ māṯė ṯaripaṯ na āvai.
Intoxicated with the wine of Maya, satisfaction never comes.
ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਮਨਿ ਸਾਚਾ ਭਾਵੈ ॥੧॥
त्रिपति मुकति मनि साचा भावै ॥१॥
Ŧaripaṯ mukaṯ man sācẖā bẖāvai. ||1||
Satisfaction and liberation come, only to one whose mind is pleasing to the True Lord. ||1||
ਤਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਕਲਤੁ ਸਭੁ ਦੇਖੁ ਅਭਿਮਾਨਾ ॥
तनु धनु कलतु सभु देखु अभिमाना ॥
Ŧan ḏẖan kalaṯ sabẖ ḏėkẖ abẖimānā.
Gazing upon his body, wealth, wife and all his possessions, he is proud.
ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਕਿਛੁ ਸੰਗਿ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
बिनु नावै किछु संगि न जाना ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Bin nāvai kicẖẖ sang na jānā. ||1|| rahā*o.
But without the Name of the Lord, nothing shall go along with him. ||1||Pause||
ਕੀਚਹਿ ਰਸ ਭੋਗ ਖੁਸੀਆ ਮਨ ਕੇਰੀ ॥
कीचहि रस भोग खुसीआ मन केरी ॥
Kīcẖeh ras bẖog kẖusī*ā man kėrī.
He enjoys tastes, pleasures and joys in his mind.
ਧਨੁ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਤਨੁ ਭਸਮੈ ਢੇਰੀ ॥
धनु लोकां तनु भसमै ढेरी ॥
Ḏẖan lokāʼn ṯan bẖasmai dẖėrī.
But his wealth will pass on to other people, and his body will be reduced to ashes.
ਖਾਕੂ ਖਾਕੁ ਰਲੈ ਸਭੁ ਫੈਲੁ ॥
खाकू खाकु रलै सभु फैलु ॥
Kẖākū kẖāk ralai sabẖ fail.
The entire expanse, like dust, shall mix with dust.
ਬਿਨੁ ਸਬਦੈ ਨਹੀ ਉਤਰੈ ਮੈਲੁ ॥੨॥
बिनु सबदै नही उतरै मैलु ॥२॥
Bin sabḏai nahī uṯrai mail. ||2||
Without the Word of the Shabad, his filth is not removed. ||2||
ਗੀਤ ਰਾਗ ਘਨ ਤਾਲ ਸਿ ਕੂਰੇ ॥
गीत राग घन ताल सि कूरे ॥
Gīṯ rāg gẖan ṯāl se kūrė.
The various songs, tunes and rhythms are false.
ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਗੁਣ ਉਪਜੈ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਦੂਰੇ ॥
त्रिहु गुण उपजै बिनसै दूरे ॥
Ŧarihu guṇ upjai binsai ḏūrė.
Trapped by the three qualities, people come and go, far from the Lord.
ਦੂਜੀ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਦਰਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
दूजी दुरमति दरदु न जाइ ॥
Ḏūjī ḏurmaṯ ḏaraḏ na jā*ė.
In duality, the pain of their evil-mindedness does not leave them.
ਛੂਟੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਦਾਰੂ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਇ ॥੩॥
छूटै गुरमुखि दारू गुण गाइ ॥३॥
Cẖẖūtai gurmukẖ ḏārū guṇ gā*ė. ||3||
But the Gurmukh is emancipated by taking the medicine, and singing the Glorious Praises of the Lord. ||3||
ਧੋਤੀ ਊਜਲ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਗਲਿ ਮਾਲਾ ॥
धोती ऊजल तिलकु गलि माला ॥
Ḏẖoṯī ūjal ṯilak gal mālā.
He may wear a clean loin-cloth, apply the ceremonial mark to his forehead, and wear a mala around his neck;
ਅੰਤਰਿ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਪੜਹਿ ਨਾਟ ਸਾਲਾ ॥
अंतरि क्रोधु पड़हि नाट साला ॥
Anṯar kroḏẖ paṛeh nāt sālā.
but if there is anger within him, he is merely reading his part, like an actor in a play.
ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਦੁ ਪੀਆ ॥
नामु विसारि माइआ मदु पीआ ॥
Nām visār mā*i*ā maḏ pī*ā.
Forgetting the Naam, the Name of the Lord, he drinks in the wine of Maya.
ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਭਗਤਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਸੁਖੁ ਥੀਆ ॥੪॥
बिनु गुर भगति नाही सुखु थीआ ॥४॥
Bin gur bẖagaṯ nāhī sukẖ thī*ā. ||4||
Without devotional worship to the Guru, there is no peace. ||4||
ਸੂਕਰ ਸੁਆਨ ਗਰਧਭ ਮੰਜਾਰਾ ॥
सूकर सुआन गरधभ मंजारा ॥
Sūkar su*ān garḏẖabẖ manjārā.
The human is a pig, a dog, a donkey, a cat,
ਪਸੂ ਮਲੇਛ ਨੀਚ ਚੰਡਾਲਾ ॥
पसू मलेछ नीच चंडाला ॥
Pasū malėcẖẖ nīcẖ cẖandalā.
a beast, a filthy, lowly wretch, an outcast,
ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਮੁਹੁ ਫੇਰੇ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਜੋਨਿ ਭਵਾਈਐ ॥
गुर ते मुहु फेरे तिन्ह जोनि भवाईऐ ॥
Gur ṯė muhu fėrė ṯinĥ jon bẖavā*ī*ai.
if he turns his face away from the Guru. He shall wander in reincarnation.
ਬੰਧਨਿ ਬਾਧਿਆ ਆਈਐ ਜਾਈਐ ॥੫॥
बंधनि बाधिआ आईऐ जाईऐ ॥५॥
Banḏẖan bāḏẖi*ā ā*ī*ai jā*ī*ai. ||5||
Bound in bondage, he comes and goes. ||5||
ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੇ ਲਹੈ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ॥
गुर सेवा ते लहै पदारथु ॥
Gur sėvā ṯė lahai paḏārath.
Serving the Guru, the treasure is found.
ਹਿਰਦੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਦਾ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ॥
हिरदै नामु सदा किरतारथु ॥
Hirḏai nām saḏā kirṯārath.
With the Naam in the heart, one always prospers.
ਸਾਚੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪੂਛ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥
साची दरगह पूछ न होइ ॥
Sācẖī ḏargeh pūcẖẖ na ho*ė.
And in the Court of the True Lord, you shall not called to account.
ਮਾਨੇ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਸੀਝੈ ਦਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੬॥
माने हुकमु सीझै दरि सोइ ॥६॥
Mānė hukam sījẖai ḏar so*ė. ||6||
One who obeys the Hukam of the Lord's Command, is approved at the Lord's Door. ||6||
ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਤ ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਜਾਣੈ ॥
सतिगुरु मिलै त तिस कउ जाणै ॥
Saṯgur milai ṯa ṯis ka*o jāṇai.
Meeting the True Guru, one knows the Lord.
ਰਹੈ ਰਜਾਈ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥
रहै रजाई हुकमु पछाणै ॥
Rahai rajā*ī hukam pacẖẖāṇai.
Understanding the Hukam of His Command, one acts according to His Will.
ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਣਿ ਸਚੈ ਦਰਿ ਵਾਸੁ ॥
हुकमु पछाणि सचै दरि वासु ॥
Hukam pacẖẖāṇ sacẖai ḏar vās.
Understanding the Hukam of His Command, he dwells in the Court of the True Lord.
ਕਾਲ ਬਿਕਾਲ ਸਬਦਿ ਭਏ ਨਾਸੁ ॥੭॥
काल बिकाल सबदि भए नासु ॥७॥
Kāl bikāl sabaḏ bẖa*ė nās. ||7||
Through the Shabad, death and birth are ended. ||7||
ਰਹੈ ਅਤੀਤੁ ਜਾਣੈ ਸਭੁ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ॥
रहै अतीतु जाणै सभु तिस का ॥
Rahai aṯīṯ jāṇai sabẖ ṯis kā.
He remains detached, knowing that everything belongs to God.
ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਅਰਪੈ ਹੈ ਇਹੁ ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ॥
तनु मनु अरपै है इहु जिस का ॥
Ŧan man arpai hai ih jis kā.
He dedicates his body and mind unto the One who owns them.
ਨਾ ਓਹੁ ਆਵੈ ਨਾ ਓਹੁ ਜਾਇ ॥
ना ओहु आवै ना ओहु जाइ ॥
Nā oh āvai nā oh jā*ė.
He does not come, and he does not go.
ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਚੇ ਸਾਚਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੮॥੨॥
नानक साचे साचि समाइ ॥८॥२॥
Nānak sācẖė sācẖ samā*ė. ||8||2||
O Nanak, absorbed in Truth, he merges in the True Lord. ||8||2||

 

[Astroboy]

I know so many rare things about yoga and occult symbolism in various systems. And no one can stand it. I could answer some of the most complex and difficult questions, and no one can tolerate even the simple statements. My message must not be for any of you, or you would know me and you would recognize my words. And I would be welcome.

A forum is prone to scrutiny of unfamiliar facts presented. Many people are only looking for a debate just to win. You must realize that males have a different purpose from females. They do not think alike. Unfortunately there are not many female active members to join in the discussion. Tell me what topic you want to start up now and I will moderate it.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

A forum is prone to scrutiny of unfamiliar facts presented. Many people are only looking for a debate just to win. You must realize that males have a different purpose from females. They do not think alike. Unfortunately there are not many female active members to join in the discussion. Tell me what topic you want to start up now and I will moderate it.

We are currently on the topic "Misrepresentation of Gurbani and the Sikh religion by vested interests," a loaded and negative discussion if ever there was one. I suppose a meaningful topic would involve the universal truths which are found throughout religions, instead of histrionic debates about all the petty differences, or why we should fear and not tolerate one another. Why don't you think up something good veer ji, like the God-intoxicated eyes of real sants. Because that appearance is not something you can fake. It is shining darshan of the inner Light of God. Or better still, a discussion about the qualities of a sant and how we can all wash ourselves to become better people.

Talk about stillness, calm, silence, peace, joy and different levels of samadhi states! Let's have a discussion about spiritual ecstacy! Why is love an ecstatic experience? Why does love lift you so high?

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh
Das was told by Rajkhalsa Ji and Kds Ji about writjng by sister against das but das could not find it.

Today by chance das got to kow this so writes the reply.


Well here das is misunderstood.


When das says that he wants to destroy Hinduism in meeting with RSS,they have no objection either but anyway das will clarify the thing in bit clearer manner.

Hinduism is term coined by westerna for the Sanatan
Dharam(whichn is a more universal thing).

Hindu is meant by one living in India more to do with race and region.so while akal is in all places so we do not join faith with regeon or race.

Say if some one calls Gurmat punjabism,we will oppose it.Same is thing over here.Fauther more Hindutva some times goes for worship of Bharat Mata while for us all earth is Mother and yet we can not worship created/manifested thing.even nothing we can worshiop as we do not exists at all.


coming to worship of Devi,As we read in Akal Ustat that God is neither mannor female,in Var durga Ki-God created Durga(Gyani Bhag Singh unsucceesfully tried to prove Tai Hi Durga Saj Ke Daita Da Nas Karaia.As per him you only Oh Durga after creating destroyed the demons.It is shamefull for Sikh Missioaries to call themselves Sikhs when they are befooled by an Arya Samaji Bhagmal as he used the same modus operandi as Dayananda used to opposed Purans vide Holy Vedas in Satyrath Prakash.

The line before this line has been

ਸਿਰਜੇ ਦਾਨੋ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਤਿਨ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਬਾਦੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥
सिरजे दानो देवते तिन अंदरि बादु रचाइआ ॥
He created the demons and gods and caused strife between them

So we already have creation demons done so why should it be repeated that "after creating".


ਤੈ ਹੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੈ ਦੈਤਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ ॥
तै ही दुरगा साजि कै दैता दा नासु कराइआ ॥
O Lord! By creating Durga, Thou hast caused the destruction of demons.

last nail in coffin of Ambala ideology could be seen from here.

ਕਰਾਇਆ,it is not as for did but for got this thing done.

Has the term being Kita,Kariya then Durga would have been the doer but there is some other entity r which is making Durga to do something. That entity created Durga.
oldhindu Text of Holy Puranas,durga Ji were created much after Brahma,vishnu and mahesh and all demigods gave here the powers to kill bufflo demon(Mahishasur) Strange that so called Ex Hindu Bhagmal did not mentioned all this things or kept them under the wrap.




likewise we


Further to it we have in Chandi Charitar Devi writtan as decent (Avtar )of Kal(Akal as this is not Shiva nor Devi(as Devi is incarnation only) futher on instance of Kal does Vishnu takes decent of Shiva(Rudra Avtar).This is no where in any Tantric or Vam Margi Text).In Gyan Prabodh all three devis sing praise of endless.

So Devi worship is not there in Sikhs.Das is not aware about which Niuhngs of Budhadal/Tarna Dal are you talking about.Baba Nidder Singh did gave a Sakhi of Bhairav Sikh cutting the nose of Devi idol.

When King of kirat pur Area Came to Sixth Master and Bhairav was summoned.Bhairav told that which devi are you talking,who could not save self.Else she would have told you that I cut her nose.Real Devi is swrod.So no gender bias at all.Guru Issar Guru Gorakh Barma Guru Parbati Mai.

RSS during 1984 election supported congress I as they deemed it OK to protect the Interest of India.

In Past Hindus is RSS were taken for a ride by Arya Samajis.As that cult is dying out they are coming near to Gurmat.das feels that for Hindus(a race) it best that they give up Hinduism and embrace Sanatan Dharama.Das is very well on the mission to destroy Hinduism/Hindutva without any hatered for Hindus as to be Sanatan Dharmi is good for them.We talk of Swadeshi then term hindu is from outside only.Akal Bless.

 

[pk70]

ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਢੇਰੀ ਢਹਿ ਪਈ ਮਿਟੀ ਸੰਦਾ ਕੋਟੁ ॥ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਚੋਰੁ ਬਹਾਲਿਆ ਖੋਟੁ ਵੇ ਜੀਆ ਖੋਟੁ ॥੨॥
1st Guru. Says Nanak, the heap or fortress of dust of thy body shall soon fall. False, false thou are, O mortal, you have seated the thief of sin within thee. (Sree Guru Granth Sahib - 1244)

 

[kds1980]

Just saying doesn't make it so. There is a lot of evidence, historical and philosophical which validly supports another view.

There are pro hindu historians,sikh historians and even pro islamic historian.All Quote sikh history,scripture's Gurbani to prove their point.so whom should an average sikh beleive .Just because you beleive in pro hindu history it does not mean it is true.

You just remind me of an european convert who was very famous on sikh forums.His name was Bahadur singh .He was very active on sikhawareness.com.He is a religious professor at some uni
and learned gurmukhi,sanskrit from best scholars.His views on sikhism were highly pro shia islam
.According to him everthying sikhism borrowed from shia islam and even Guru nanak dev ji recited shahada in baghdad.So after his immense research and spiritual experiance he formally converted to shia islam.

So whom should average sikh beleive .Bahadur singh now bahadur ali ,harjas kaur or some other sikh scholars

Btw here is the thread about his conversion you can also read his last post their
http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/17871-hazart-mohammed-up-by-one.html

There were also Sikhs involved in killing Hindus

Those were terrorists who killed innocent hindu's most of them are either dead or fled the country
but the killers of sikhs like sajjan kumar and tytler are still sitting in Indian parliement and you say that hindu and sikh are same

The RSS as an organization has itself promoted protection of Sikhs and roundly criticized the Congress Party for 1984

Totally hindutva propaganda some RSS workers could have saved lives of sikhs but no way RSS
RSS Was protector of sikhs

Apportioning The Blame Of Communal Riots By Ram Puniyani
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Who is to be blamed for these riots? In case of 1984 anti Sikh riots the role of Congress was most abominable. In addition to overt role of Congress one
has to see the role of RSS also in this tragedy. In one of the articles in a Hindi Monthly, Pratipaksha, Nanaji Deshmukh a veteran of RSS wrote around that
time that there is a threat to the National unity, due to Sikh extremism, and so Rajiv Gandhi should be supported to the hilt. Needless to say it was Rajiv
Gandhi who blurted during these riots that when a big tree falls the ground shakes. The role of RSS during 1984 riots is anybody’s guess.

As far as criticism is concerned yes RSS criticised congress but it was in their interest as congress always blamed them as rioters.The motive was to counter attack congress and prove it that congresssmen are bigger rioters than us

[/FONT]

Sikhs were already assassinating.

I am talking about assasination of big leaders.There were 3 assasinations in India Mahatama gandhi,Indira gandhi and rajiv gandhi

1 was by brahmin hindu

other by sikhbodyguards

and the 3rd one was by tamillian

Only after sikhs killed indira there were 10,000 innocent sikhs were killed.No such amount of hindu's were killed after assasinations

Is it not the proof that sikhs and hindu's are different now.

Why were these in a temple? Because Sikhs were being peaceful citizens? Anywhere in the world, in any country, stockpiling weapons, arranging asssassinations, promoting terrorism, threatening to kill Hindus... what would the response be? Handing them the keys to Khalistan? No! It would be foolish and shortsighted and result in a government slaughter of the militants. Again, only propaganda wants to make this a Hindu against Sikh issue.

I am not a khalistani supporter But the issue of khalistan started with partition and many things were involved in it

Traditionally, if you do any honest inquiry into Sikh history. Sikhs were among the most vocal advocates of cow protection during time of British Raj. So traditionally and historically, the beef issue was a Sikh-Hindu unity issue. Hundreds of Naamdharis lost their lives fighting for cow protection against British bringing Muslim butchers into Punjab. So already you have created a historically invalid paradox. The very titles of Shri Krishna which appear frequently in Gurbani as Naams of the Lord, Govind, Gopala? Come from the root "go" which means "cow." Govinda means the Lord who is friend of cows. Gopala means the protector of cows. Strange such a Naam for the God appears in Gurbani. As to cigarettes, and even sharab... if you are honest... how many Sikhs are buying them? When the Sikhs themselves kick up a fuss and the product doesn't sell, it will go the way of beef due to activism of Hindus. Again, this is a silly commentary pretending to be Hindu injustice against Sikhs.

I know that some sikhs protected cows but beef eating is not a kurhit while smoking tobacco is
.It is not the question whether beef is allowed or not.It is question of respecting others beleif
if selling of beef could be banned so could selling of tobacco in punjab and sikh majority areas

As far as question of honest inquiry is concerned .Do I need to tell you that it is hindu milkmen who throw their cows on roads or how many hindu' are engaged in cattle mafia trade illegally sending cows to pakistan and bangladesh.Why not same logic is applicable for hindu's

Even if you allow mcdonalds to sell beef items you will see majority of customers are going to be hindu's

The fact is beef is banned becuase the religion of majority forbids it while tobacco is not.So it is forcibal imposition of religioious beleif on Atheists,muslims,christians and others who don't find anything wrong in eating beef

 

[barfi]

im totally new here

n wanna say great site. i wish u all the best. 84 is a painful subject for many people, gallant defender by ar darshi is a good book to read for facts.

 

[spnadmin]

barfi ji

Usually we welcome new members in the Introducing Myself thread. But in this thread, it is just as good. So welcome to the forum. I hope you will decide to post comments and start new threads and in general contribute to the lively discourse on SPN. It is a place to learn about 84 and other things too. So don't fade away but become an active participant.


Welcome to SPN.

 

[spnadmin]

A new thread has been started to discuss spiritual ecstasy. It is named Spiritual Ecstasy - Perspectives from Gurbani. It can be found in the Sikh Sikhi Sikhism forum.

http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/23019-spiritual-ecstasy-perspectives-from-gurbani.html

Another new thread has been started to discuss spiritual ecstasy from diverse religious perspectives. It is named Spiritual Ecstasy - What is Samadhi? This thread is in Interfaith Dialogs.

http://www.sikhism.us/interfaith-dialogues/23021-spiritual-ecstasy-what-is-samadhi.html#post86729

If anyone would like to post an essay to begin either thread, they are open, and ready for dialog.

 

[harbansj24]

Bhai Vir Singh's works especially Guru Nanak Chamatkar, Guru Kalgidhar Chamatkar and Asht Guru Chamatkar are very diligently, lovingly and exhaustivly researched comprehension of Sikh religion.

When such outstanding and authentic works are available ther is no need to look elsewhere.

There is a immediate need to popularise the works of Bhai Vir Singh to understand and appreciate the great Sikh religion and to enable Sikhs to regain their self esteem, which is very low owing to successful attacks on it by vested interests.

Harbans:happy:

 

[spnadmin]

harbhans ji

I do think you are correct about low self-esteem -- that is one of several ways in which anger becomes stuck and hard to dispel. It is almost as if by reading Gurbani and seeking vichaar with relish, then indeed "all doubts are dispelled." There is no room for negativity. It is a beautiful thing and it works.