Mona And Sehajdhari

[sikh78910]

J.A.T.T[QUOTE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bijla Singh
Mr. "Jatt" first you ask "I am confused about these people" and then you come up with your own definitions. In any case, read the Maryada carefully. How can one claim to follow Guru Sahib and not take Amrit which is the teaching of Guru Sahib? Naam Japna is one of the basic principles of Sikhi and naam cannot be obtained without a Guru. Hence one must take Amrit.

Actually, if you read the rehat and especially gurdwara act closely, then you can see that you can find terms such as "amritdhari", “keshdhari” and “sehajdhari”.

They’re all recognized as Sikhs.

LOLLLL This is evidence that MR BIJLAAAA SINGH should have stopped talking a long timeeeeeeeee ago in this thread!!!!! __________________

 

[sikh78910]

oh and killing animals is veryyyy wrong, especially for food! it shows u can kill one of gods living creations with a soul in COLD BLOOD! and therefore automatically gives u the ability to kill ANY of gods living creations in cold blood! read this taken from an extract of an article-

The reason why a Sikh doesn't eat meat is not related to 'ahimsaa' or "respect for all life" like the Jains. The reason is 'daya'. Mercy evaporates when we butcher and eat meat. A carrot may have life but it will never run away screaming when you go to the garden to get it. Guru Sahib is clear in Gurbani that life must sustain itself on life. There is no lack of mercy or daya (mercy) excercised when cutting a vegetable as it does not reacts to being cut. Contrast that with animals. These animals beg and cry and little calves cling to their mothers in terror when they sense they will be slaughtered. The word "gardener" has no pejorative connotation. The word "butcher" on the other hand stands for someone who has no mercy. If one's heart doesn't melt at seeing the shrieks and anguish of animals, why would it matter when a human does the same? Why is it Muslims can do Halal on humans? It's because they have so much experience with animals that the jerking, gasping of dying animals and blood is something usual for them. A butcher will have the heart of a butcher. A butcher can never be a 'Dharmi' (spiritually pious) person.

Panthic Weekly: What is Kuttha? (Part 2)

 

[kds1980]

KDS Ji, when it comes to truth, it really doesn't change from religion to religion. There is only one God and there is only one hukam and truth about Him. If it logically doesn't make sense, it can't make sense, period...

pcjs ji please tell me who will decide what is logical and what is illogical
what could be logical for you may be illogical for me and what could be logical
for me may be illogical for you. so don't say that it doesn't make sense to
you is wrong for everybody

 

[Archived_Member_19]

ur right KDS ji

logic is relative.

but i agree with pcjs ji

 

[kds1980]

ur right KDS ji

logic is relative.

but i agree with pcjs ji

on which point do you agree with pcjs ji?
please clarify

 

[Veeru]

KDS Ji,

Prof. Darshan Singh Ji tried to justify keeping hair over nails by arguing that cutting hair is like killing a species because he said that hair is alive as it changes color and nails are not.

So obviously, killing is considered wrong, even in Sikhism. Now we need to see if killing is wrong, period, i.e. you can't kill at all or if it's OK to kill for certain purpose. Also, we need to see if there is different levels of killing, i.e. if killing a plant is same as killing a human e.g. or an animal.

Now why is killing wrong? A few reasons that I can think of are:

1. Killing takes away a life. In case of a humans, by killing we are taking away his/her opportunity to be united with God and in case of animals, we are taking away its opportunity to finish all the karmas so that it can be born into a higher form and eventually as a human. In case of plants, nowhere it says that they have soul and are part of re-incarnation. So killing a plant can not be as bad as killing an animal and human.

2. We are taking that's naturally doesn't belong to us. When we kill, it's like we have right on others, whether they are animals or humans.

In case of hair, none of these points apply as hair is our own and hair doesn't have soul either. If anything, the logical reason to keep hair would be to stay as God created us. But then spirituality isn't all about us. A spiritual person should also care about our surroundings.

Using spiritual logic, the only reason why I can think of killing a human is worse than an animal is that in human life, it's possible to be united with God and earn karma (good or bad), and in case of an animal life, they can only earn karma. But other than that, animals are pretty much like humans as they also have emotions for their families and people as well.

So if we had to measure killing on a scale from 0 to 10 (0 not bad at all and 10 being the worst), logically thinking killing a human would be 10 and killing an animal would be upto 9 and killing a plant would start at 1 but cutting hair would be more like 0 and not even equal to 1.

So, we may look at it differently, but either way we look at, logically it doesn't make sense to say that cutting hair is worse than killing.

 

[Veeru]

Bijla Siyan,

It's really important to see the original Rehat Maryada to conclude that SGPC Rehat Maryada is exact translation of the original Rehat Maryada. It was more of a political document to keep control over Gurdwaras by SGPC, which is mainly controlled by Akalis. Punjab was split into three states for the very same reason because Akalis knew they could never make majority in Punjab as it was so big.

Sikhi is about controlling mind and at least five vices. Whatever we do, whether take Amrit, do nitnem, do sewa, listen to Gurbani, sit among saadh sangat or help the needy is to control mind and five vices. Obviously, there is a lot ego within yourself. Therefore, you cannot even be close to being Sikh leave alone being gurwala. unless you have controlled mind and all vices, nothing else matters. You could be amritdhari or do nitnem. But if you don't have control over mind and vices, it isn't that effective.

For some reason, you keep ignoring that Guru Amar Dass Ji proved that Guruwala have a lot of power. Nanak Dass mukh se jo bolay iya'n uya'n sach hoye. Since you are nowhere near spiritual wisdom of Guru Amar Dass Ji, you are not a guruwala. You may think you are guruwala because you are doing what Guru wanted us to do. But this is simply your perception based upon what you learn from the people today who learned from SGPC Rehat Maryada, not Guru.

 

[kds1980]

pcjs ji your and mine debate in this thread started when you said that current rehat maryada is not o.k. because it does not ban meat.and eating meat is worse than cutting hair.so basically your rejecting it because it does not suit your logic but my logic is different.so if we all start rejecting rehat maryada because it does not suit our logic there will be no rehat maryada left.

just like you have represented your logic in favour of vegetarianism i can too present my logic.and in the end we are not going to convince each other.

btw the point you have mentioned that plants don't have souls and they are not part of reincarnation is wrong according to a shabad in gurbani they are
also part of reincarnation.please read the the following article and entire
15 page debate.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

as far as current rehat maryada of akal takhat is concerned please read the following link

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...onduct.html?highlight=history+of+code+conduct

so if there is chance of any true rehat maryada of guru gobind singh
then it is only of akal takhat maryada which was prepared by decades
of hard work by sikh scholars.

 

[Veeru]

KDS Ji,

I wouldn't rely on the translation too much. There have been some errors. Either way, does it say anywhere that we were hair in one life or the other? So logically cutting hair couldn't be as bad as killing...

 

[Bijla Singh]

Gurbani is clear that Sikh can never be equal to Guru. Guru is Guru whose powers are unlimited. Every Sikh has different levels of spirituality. Guru Sahib did more simran and seva and only after following the Hukam more and more He was blessed with powers. Comparing a Sikh to Guru Sahib is a stupid thing, nothing more. A Sikh never goes after such powers. To say that one is not a Sikh because his powers are less than that of others is a foolish thing and has no logic. How much power do you have? By the same argument you and every other person is not a Sikh because you all have no powers. You all don't even follow the hukam of Guru Sahib. How can one do bajjar kurehats and be a Sikh at the same time? This is a contradiction and has no place in Sikhi.

I am not even talking about SGPC Maryada. I never used it for reference. I pointed out all sources from 18th century and accepted work of Bhai Nand Singh Ji and Vaars of Bhai Gurdas Ji. Do you have one source from those times to show me rehat only for monay? Do you have stories of monay who were martyred by Mughals because they were considered Sikhs? Were any monay beheaded and their heads used to get price of 80 gold coins? Do you have names of monay who were in misls? Or better yet any Misl of monay? The answer is simply NO. When Madho Das wanted to become a Sikh, he was given Amrit and Bhatt Vahis prove this beyond the doubt. This shows that one must take Amrit, keep rehat and do naam abhiyaas. These tools are the basis for controlling thieves. Non-Punjabis (white, Mexicans etc) have to take Amrit to become Sikhs then why should there be exceptions for monay from Punjab? There are no exceptions. I am not full of ego but proud to be a Sikh because I follow His hukam. Guru Sahib blessed His roop to rehatvaan Gursikhs not to monay. That's all that matters. Without Naam no one becomes guruwala and no one will get muktee. I have received naam and by guru's kirpa will get muktee. You still have not provided a single credible source to back up your claims or justify your definitions. Until you do this discussion is over. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

 

[Veeru]

Bijla Siyan,

That's exactly right. If you expect a Sikh to be perfect, then yes a Sikh must be as perfect as Guru. Otherwise, whoever believes in Gurbani and tries to control mind and vices is a Sikh.

Apparently, there was a good reason for Guruji to tell Amritdharis to keep hair. That's why it's important to know the reason behind. Even if you look completely like an Amritdhari as guruji wanted an Amritdharis to be, until you can be spiritually Amritdhari, it's not only useless, it very well be sinful to take the oath as an Amritdhari and then spiritually doing completely opposite of what an Amritdhari is supposed to do.

A true Amritdhari or Khalsa would be have become one with God and for a true Amritdhari or Khalsa, Nanak Dass mukh sei jo bole iyaa'n uyaa'n sach hove would have become true. In other words, if you were true Amritdhari or Khalsa, what you said would have become true.

So why is it that we don't wanna be like you? Because you have drifted away from true Sikhi. I have this feeling that this is because you believe more in SGPC Rehat Maryada than Guru Granth Sahib. A Sikh believes "hum nehi changay bura nehi koye" and you guys believe that you are the best.

What you guys do is nothing better than a caste-ridden person does. Just look around. You are doing the same in Gurdwaras exactly but brahmins did in Mandirs and when it comes to marrying.

I am simply stating the fact. It should not be taken as that I would ever want to marry an Amrtidhari. Most desirable woman for me to marry would be a non-Amritdhari.

 

[J.A.T.T]

Gurbani is clear that Sikh can never be equal to Guru. Guru is Guru whose powers are unlimited. Every Sikh has different levels of spirituality. Guru Sahib did more simran and seva and only after following the Hukam more and more He was blessed with powers. Comparing a Sikh to Guru Sahib is a stupid thing, nothing more. A Sikh never goes after such powers. To say that one is not a Sikh because his powers are less than that of others is a foolish thing and has no logic. How much power do you have? By the same argument you and every other person is not a Sikh because you all have no powers. You all don't even follow the hukam of Guru Sahib. How can one do bajjar kurehats and be a Sikh at the same time? This is a contradiction and has no place in Sikhi.

I am not even talking about SGPC Maryada. I never used it for reference. I pointed out all sources from 18th century and accepted work of Bhai Nand Singh Ji and Vaars of Bhai Gurdas Ji. Do you have one source from those times to show me rehat only for monay? Do you have stories of monay who were martyred by Mughals because they were considered Sikhs? Were any monay beheaded and their heads used to get price of 80 gold coins? Do you have names of monay who were in misls? Or better yet any Misl of monay? The answer is simply NO. When Madho Das wanted to become a Sikh, he was given Amrit and Bhatt Vahis prove this beyond the doubt. This shows that one must take Amrit, keep rehat and do naam abhiyaas. These tools are the basis for controlling thieves. Non-Punjabis (white, Mexicans etc) have to take Amrit to become Sikhs then why should there be exceptions for monay from Punjab? There are no exceptions. I am not full of ego but proud to be a Sikh because I follow His hukam. Guru Sahib blessed His roop to rehatvaan Gursikhs not to monay. That's all that matters. Without Naam no one becomes guruwala and no one will get muktee. I have received naam and by guru's kirpa will get muktee. You still have not provided a single credible source to back up your claims or justify your definitions. Until you do this discussion is over. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Haqiqat Rai was a mona who got beheaded in public for his refusal to disown his Sikh belief and accept Islam.

 

[J.A.T.T]

J.A.T.T[QUOTE




LOLLLL This is evidence that MR BIJLAAAA SINGH should have stopped talking a long timeeeeeeeee ago in this thread!!!!! __________________

 

[S|kH]

kds180 said there is no restriction politcally or socially about mona's/sehajdharis being called sikhs.

I would say this is WHERE a distinction IS placed.
Mona's can not go to the front lines of newspapers and be claiming to speak for all sikhs. To be our political/social leader, you have to look traditionally atleast. Because remember, no one's going to be looking internally, they are only looking face-value.

As far as spiritually is concerned, yeah...anyone can call themselves a Sikh and be seen as one.

Politcally and socially....only Sardars (Keshdharis) and Khalsa can be called or should speak on the behalf of all Sikhs.

 

[Bijla Singh]

Brief History of Bhai Hakikat Singh Ji

Family Background – Bhai Nand Raam was a resident of village Goltiyan who became a Sikh of Guru Harrai Sahib Ji. According to the hand written account of the family, Bhai Nand Raam was given three instructions: not to cut hair, not to eat tobacco and wear turban instead of a hat. Bhai Nand Raam had two sons – Bhai Bagh Mall Ji and Bhai Bhaag Mall Ji. Both took Amrit from Guru Gobind Singh Ji and became gursikhs. Bhai Hakikat Singh was born in the house of Bhai Bagh Singh (Mall) Ji.

Nankay (Maternal) Family Background – In 1648 in village Sodhra, Bhai Kanhayea Ji was born in the family of Bhai Nathu Ram Ji and Bibi Sundari Ji. Bhai Kanhayea Ji met Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji in 1674 and became Sikh. Later he took Amrit from Guru Gobind Singh Ji and became Bhai Kanheya Singh Ji. He is well known in the Sikh world for his great seva. He had one son – Bhai Lacchi Raam Singh Ji. Bhai Lacchi Raam Singh Ji had two daughters Bibi Kauran Kaur and Bibi Gauran Kaur and one son Bhai Arjan Singh Ji. Both bibis married Bhai Bagh Singh and Bhai Bhaag Singh. Hence mother of Bhai Hakikat Singh Ji was Bibi Kauran Kaur Ji.

In-laws Family Background – Bhai Hakikat Singh was married to Bibi Nand Kaur Ji, daughter of Bhai Kishan Singh Ji. Bhai Kishan Singh had two brothers – Bhai Dall Singh and Bhai Mall Singh. All three brothers were Amritdharis and Bibi Nand Kaur was a pooran gursikh. According to “Sidak Khalsa” Bibi Ji was a rehatvaan strict gursikh who would choose death over giving up Sikhi.

Bhai Hakikat Singh’s father was an Amritdhari and his family had been in Sikhi since 7th Guru Sahib, mother was an Amritdhari whose family had been in Sikhi since 9th Guru Sahib and his in-laws were all Amritdharis. This proves beyond the doubt that Bhai Sahib was from a family of and himself was a pooran Amritdhari gursikh not a mona.

Bhatt Vahis, hand written records of his decendants, Bhai Kartar Singh writer of Sidak Khalsa, Bihari Lal Shaant writer of Hakikat Chrittar, and Agar Singh Sethi writer of Hakikat Vaar and numerous other accounts make it clear that Bhai Hakikat Singh was not a “Rai” or a mona but an Amritdhari gursikh. His family relatives were all Amritdharis and companions of Baba Banda Singh Ji. It is pathetic that ignorant people of today without ever studying little bit of Sikh history resort to distorting Sikhi so they can justify their patit-puna.

 

[kds1980]

kds180 said there is no restriction politcally or socially about mona's/sehajdharis being called sikhs.

I would say this is WHERE a distinction IS placed.
Mona's can not go to the front lines of newspapers and be claiming to speak for all sikhs. To be our political/social leader, you have to look traditionally atleast. Because remember, no one's going to be looking internally, they are only looking face-value.

As far as spiritually is concerned, yeah...anyone can call themselves a Sikh and be seen as one.

Politcally and socially....only Sardars (Keshdharis) and Khalsa can be called or should speak on the behalf of all Sikhs.

sat sri akal s1kh ji
good to see you back on this site

when i said that a sehajdhari can himself can call himself sikh politicaly
it means in the eye of law whether he is a sikh or not.if mona's politically cannot call themselves sikhs then on what basis we claim that punjab is a sikh majority area.there are hardly 10 to 20 % keshdhari sikhs left in punjab.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

You are absolutley RIGHT Bijla singh ji. Lets not get confused with "rai" or "Dass" "Lall"..etc etc. Next some one may say Gobind Rai was a MONA Guru !! ( Remeber the names of all the Nine Gurus !!..if it was all in the Name only..they can all be MONAS !!!There is absolutley NO Evidence that ANY "MONA" was martyred because the Only IDentity of a SIKH was KESH. Several instances of GREEDY HINDU PARENTS, Uncles etc..Cutting off the heads of GIRLS/women/etc to claim REWARD of RS 80 for a SIKH Head is PROOF that LONG KESH was reuired for the REWARD. The Girls were claimed to be YOUNG SIKHS...( Trust the greedy to find a loophole..) MONAS wouldnt be arrested. Even in Post 1984..it was the AMRITDHAREE that was Targetted by the security Forces..being an amritdharee was automatic attraction to the police/indian army/crpf etc.

Gyani jarnail Singh

 

[J.A.T.T]

Brief History of Bhai Hakikat Singh Ji

Family Background – Bhai Nand Raam was a resident of village Goltiyan who became a Sikh of Guru Harrai Sahib Ji. According to the hand written account of the family, Bhai Nand Raam was given three instructions: not to cut hair, not to eat tobacco and wear turban instead of a hat. Bhai Nand Raam had two sons – Bhai Bagh Mall Ji and Bhai Bhaag Mall Ji. Both took Amrit from Guru Gobind Singh Ji and became gursikhs. Bhai Hakikat Singh was born in the house of Bhai Bagh Singh (Mall) Ji.

Nankay (Maternal) Family Background – In 1648 in village Sodhra, Bhai Kanhayea Ji was born in the family of Bhai Nathu Ram Ji and Bibi Sundari Ji. Bhai Kanhayea Ji met Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji in 1674 and became Sikh. Later he took Amrit from Guru Gobind Singh Ji and became Bhai Kanheya Singh Ji. He is well known in the Sikh world for his great seva. He had one son – Bhai Lacchi Raam Singh Ji. Bhai Lacchi Raam Singh Ji had two daughters Bibi Kauran Kaur and Bibi Gauran Kaur and one son Bhai Arjan Singh Ji. Both bibis married Bhai Bagh Singh and Bhai Bhaag Singh. Hence mother of Bhai Hakikat Singh Ji was Bibi Kauran Kaur Ji.

In-laws Family Background – Bhai Hakikat Singh was married to Bibi Nand Kaur Ji, daughter of Bhai Kishan Singh Ji. Bhai Kishan Singh had two brothers – Bhai Dall Singh and Bhai Mall Singh. All three brothers were Amritdharis and Bibi Nand Kaur was a pooran gursikh. According to “Sidak Khalsa” Bibi Ji was a rehatvaan strict gursikh who would choose death over giving up Sikhi.

Bhai Hakikat Singh’s father was an Amritdhari and his family had been in Sikhi since 7th Guru Sahib, mother was an Amritdhari whose family had been in Sikhi since 9th Guru Sahib and his in-laws were all Amritdharis. This proves beyond the doubt that Bhai Sahib was from a family of and himself was a pooran Amritdhari gursikh not a mona.

Bhatt Vahis, hand written records of his decendants, Bhai Kartar Singh writer of Sidak Khalsa, Bihari Lal Shaant writer of Hakikat Chrittar, and Agar Singh Sethi writer of Hakikat Vaar and numerous other accounts make it clear that Bhai Hakikat Singh was not a “Rai” or a mona but an Amritdhari gursikh. His family relatives were all Amritdharis and companions of Baba Banda Singh Ji. It is pathetic that ignorant people of today without ever studying little bit of Sikh history resort to distorting Sikhi so they can justify their patit-puna.

Here's a link of Bhai Haqiqat Rai:

Great Sikh martyrs

Anyway, Bhai Haqiqat Rai wasn't even an Amritdhari or Keshdhari for that matter (check the link for the picture).

 

[J.A.T.T]

*edit*

 

[J.A.T.T]

kds180 said there is no restriction politcally or socially about mona's/sehajdharis being called sikhs.

I would say this is WHERE a distinction IS placed.
Mona's can not go to the front lines of newspapers and be claiming to speak for all sikhs. To be our political/social leader, you have to look traditionally atleast. Because remember, no one's going to be looking internally, they are only looking face-value.

As far as spiritually is concerned, yeah...anyone can call themselves a Sikh and be seen as one.

Politcally and socially....only Sardars (Keshdharis) and Khalsa can be called or should speak on the behalf of all Sikhs.

umm only Amritdhari should speak and lead the Sikh community. Keshdharis should not speak and lead the community as well.