'Naam' - My Understanding

[japjisahib04]

Naam=shabad=gurbani=something to follow and not just recite. The experience comes from changing yourself -your thoughts and actions. This weeks SOTW is a fantastic illustration of this. Meditation is useless if not accompanied by the actions taught us by Gurbani.

The dasam dwaar is not something that is lost or found but something that has to be used appropriately-the brain.

True. By simply reading, parroting is just like a wind. For example I was going through a very simple pankti whose translation I feel from 500 years or so has not been explored and I would like to share and learn, 'ਸੋ ਕਤ ਜਾਨੈ ਪੀਰ ਪਰਾਈ ॥ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਦਰਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥੧ How can anyone know the pain of another, if there is no compassion and sympathy within? ||1||Pause|| this understanding is based on pre-conceived ancient belief from years and as such we are not able to decode the divine message behind this pankti.

The pankti says, 'ਪੀਰ ਪਰਾਈ' but guru sahib on the other hand says, 'ਨਾ ਕੋ ਬੈਰੀ ਨਹੀ ਬਿਗਾਨਾ ਸਗਲ ਸੰਗਿ ਹਮ ਕਉ ਬਨਿ ਆਈ ॥੧॥ when we don't have any stranger then question of tapping 'ਪੀਰ ਪਰਾਈ' of other does not arise, then what is the message which guru sahib is trying to convey. Therefore, unless I contemplate, I cannot decode the divine message i.e. why guru sahib says, sabsai upar gur sabd veechar. As per my understanding Guru sahib is referring to the realization of pain of untuned Manh and matt in the absence of divine as a start, as charity begins from home. Like, ' ਏਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਇ ॥੩॥ the mind is enlightened when both manh and intellect are tuned together. And whose heart understand the pain of separation of divine his intellect is automatically merged with the heart, then we will see God in everyone, realize, 'ਪੀਰ ਪਰਾਈ' and treat accordingly.

I would love to receive input form learned members.

best regards
sahni

 

[Luckysingh]

Meditation is useless if not accompanied by the actions taught us by Gurbani.

Yes, meditation is useless for a sikh if there is no Guru or gurmat focus- I agree.
That's why we find it easier to call it simran, so as to separate it from all he other commercial forms of well-being meditation.

If you do simran, you will be surprised how much it helps in your gurmat function and co-ordination in every day life !!!!!eacesign:
Therefore, I can in no breath, every say that proper simran or waheguru-meditation can be a waste of time. I'm sure some fellow sikhs dedicated to hardcore simran would be offended by this claim.

 

[chazSingh]

Yes, meditation is useless for a sikh if there is no Guru or gurmat focus- I agree.
That's why we find it easier to call it simran, so as to separate it from all he other commercial forms of well-being meditation.

If you do simran, you will be surprised how much it helps in your gurmat function and co-ordination in every day life !!!!!eacesign:
Therefore, I can in no breath, every say that proper simran or waheguru-meditation can be a waste of time. I'm sure some fellow sikhs dedicated to hardcore simran would be offended by this claim.

It's a common thing for people to think simple 'parroting' is ocurring when the words meditation and even Simran is used.

I cannot speak for anyone else...But Simran for me exists 24/7...but the Simran that takes place during my Amrit Vela is soooo much more than 'parroting' ... in fact i find it hard to write it/explain it in words.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Ambarsariah Ji,
SPN has created a special Thread where ALL these issues of SB are available in ONE place.
I am sure you will enjoy Karminder's writing..hes a very straightforward to the point type of writer.
Regards
Jarnail Singh

All may be glad to learn the good news that Dr Karminder is now into compiling all those Lessons on Japji into a book - soon to be published. He ran a 35 week course for adults at a leading Gurdwara here in Kuala Lumpur and based on the feedback and more contemplations arising out of need to prepare newer lectures, he has actually abandoned many of the earlier "conclusions" he ahd reached on many subjects in japji...SATGUR MERA NIT NAVAHN.. Un- learn, RE-Learn a life long process...


And the better Good News is that SPN will get a early bird preview of the book before it goes to press...

Jarnail Singh

 

[Luckysingh]

True. By simply reading, parroting is just like a wind. For example I was going through a very simple pankti whose translation I feel from 500 years or so has not been explored and I would like to share and learn, 'ਸੋ ਕਤ ਜਾਨੈ ਪੀਰ ਪਰਾਈ ॥ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਦਰਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥੧ How can anyone know the pain of another, if there is no compassion and sympathy within? ||1||Pause|| this understanding is based on pre-conceived ancient belief from years and as such we are not able to decode the divine message behind this pankti.

The pankti says, 'ਪੀਰ ਪਰਾਈ' but guru sahib on the other hand says, 'ਨਾ ਕੋ ਬੈਰੀ ਨਹੀ ਬਿਗਾਨਾ ਸਗਲ ਸੰਗਿ ਹਮ ਕਉ ਬਨਿ ਆਈ ॥੧॥ when we don't have any stranger then question of tapping 'ਪੀਰ ਪਰਾਈ' of other does not arise, then what is the message which guru sahib is trying to convey. Therefore, unless I contemplate, I cannot decode the divine message i.e. why guru sahib says, sabsai upar gur sabd veechar. As per my understanding Guru sahib is referring to the realization of pain of untuned Manh and matt in the absence of divine as a start, as charity begins from home. Like, ' ਏਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਇ ॥੩॥ the mind is enlightened when both manh and intellect are tuned together. And whose heart understand the pain of separation of divine his intellect is automatically merged with the heart, then we will see God in everyone, and treat accordingly.

I would love to receive input form learned members.

best regards
sahni

I can see this shabad speaking many words and having multiple messages.
I'm having a problem with the fonts or something so i can't post the whole shabad for ref here!

I got the STMax pasted-
<table border="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="top">raag soohee baanee sree ravidhaas jeeo kee
ik oa(n)kaar sathigur prasaadh ||
seh kee saar suhaagan jaanai ||
thaj abhimaan sukh raleeaa maanai ||
than man dhaee n a(n)thar raakhai ||
avaraa dhaekh n sunai abhaakhai ||1||
so kath jaanai peer paraaee ||
jaa kai a(n)thar dharadh n paaee ||1|| rehaao ||
dhukhee dhuhaagan dhue pakh heenee ||
jin naah nira(n)thar bhagath n keenee ||
pur salaath kaa pa(n)thh dhuhaelaa ||
sa(n)g n saathhee gavan eikaelaa ||2||
dhukheeaa dharadhava(n)dh dhar aaeiaa ||
bahuth piaas jabaab n paaeiaa ||
kehi ravidhaas saran prabh thaeree ||
jio jaanahu thio kar gath maeree ||3||1||

</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top">Raag Soohee, The Word Of Sree Ravi Daas Jee:
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
The happy soul-bride knows the worth of her Husband Lord.
Renouncing pride, she enjoys peace and pleasure.
She surrenders her body and mind to Him, and does not remain separate from Him.
She does not see or hear, or speak to another. ||1||
How can anyone know the pain of another,
if there is no compassion and sympathy within? ||1||Pause||
The discarded bride is miserable, and loses both worlds;
she does not worship her Husband Lord.
The bridge over the fire of hell is difficult and treacherous.
No one will accompany you there; you will have to go all alone. ||2||
Suffering in pain, I have come to Your Door, O Compassionate Lord.
I am so thirsty for You, but You do not answer me.
Says Ravi Daas, I seek Your Sanctuary, God;
as You know me, so will You save me. ||3||1||
</td></tr></tbody></table>
Looking a his part-
avaraa dhaekh n sunai abhaakhai ||1||
so kath jaanai peer paraaee ||
She does not see or hear, or speak to another. ||1||
How can anyone know the pain of another,
jaa kai a(n)thar dharadh n paaee ||1|| rehaao ||
if there is no compassion and sympathy within? ||1||Pause||
dhukhee dhuhaagan dhue pakh heenee ||
The discarded bride is miserable, and loses both worlds;
jin naah nira(n)thar bhagath n keenee ||
pur salaath kaa pa(n)thh dhuhaelaa ||
sa(n)g n saathhee gavan eikaelaa ||2||
The discarded bride is miserable, and loses both worlds;
she does not worship her Husband Lord.
The bridge over the fire of hell is difficult and treacherous.

The soul bride loses BOTH the spiritual world and the maya world. The pain or dukh is experienced only in this physical body with the help of our mind.
But in the spiritual world, there is no harm done from this dukh, but our action and resentment to husband Lord about our pain can make us fail in both worlds.
I think it is also important to consider the factors of duality in this shabad, since an Advait(non-dual) gurmukh, actually accepts ALL Sukh and Dukh as the play of His Hukam or Will, (Tera Banaa mitha lagaee)

This is my first impression anyway, although I may even feel more depth at a later stage !
To me, BOTH Dukh and Sukh are human perceptions that vary in many degrees for all of us.

 

[spnadmin]

I advise all forum members: Do not copy and paste from SikhiTotheMax. They do not use unicode but a special font that does not carry over for viewing on every computer. In addition, the use of alternating bold and regular font is visually confusing and makes it many times harder to figure out the translation and the transliteration. Use srigranth.com ... Translations on both platforms are by Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa. So there is no loss in the English version, and the gain of being able to read with ease. Thank you

 

[Tejwant Singh]

SATGUR MERA NIT NAVAHN.. Un- learn, RE-Learn a life long process...

Gyani ji:Thanks for reminding us this, as it should be ever so often. This is the real meaning of re-incarnation in Sikhi.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Originally Posted by japjisahib04
True. By simply reading, parroting is just like a wind. For example I was going through a very simple pankti whose translation I feel from 500 years or so has not been explored and I would like to share and learn, 'ਸੋ ਕਤ ਜਾਨੈ ਪੀਰ ਪਰਾਈ ॥ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਦਰਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥੧ How can anyone know the pain of another, if there is no compassion and sympathy within? ||1||Pause|| this understanding is based on pre-conceived ancient belief from years and as such we are not able to decode the divine message behind this pankti.

The pankti says, 'ਪੀਰ ਪਰਾਈ' but guru sahib on the other hand says, 'ਨਾ ਕੋ ਬੈਰੀ ਨਹੀ ਬਿਗਾਨਾ ਸਗਲ ਸੰਗਿ ਹਮ ਕਉ ਬਨਿ ਆਈ ॥੧॥ when we don't have any stranger then question of tapping 'ਪੀਰ ਪਰਾਈ' of other does not arise, then what is the message which guru sahib is trying to convey. Therefore, unless I contemplate, I cannot decode the divine message i.e. why guru sahib says, sabsai upar gur sabd veechar. As per my understanding Guru sahib is referring to the realization of pain of untuned Manh and matt in the absence of divine as a start, as charity begins from home. Like, ' ਏਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਇ ॥੩॥ the mind is enlightened when both manh and intellect are tuned together. And whose heart understand the pain of separation of divine his intellect is automatically merged with the heart, then we will see God in everyone, and treat accordingly.

I would love to receive input form learned members.

best regards
sahni

Mohinder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

'ਸੋ ਕਤ ਜਾਨੈ ਪੀਰ ਪਰਾਈ ॥ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਦਰਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥ Loosely translated in English it means, "Only the wearer knows where the shoe hurts". If you exchange the same shoe with the wearer, it may not hurt you. Hence, you would not know how hurtful it is and where the pain is located.

Sikhi is the journey of the individual, we all go through our own personal trials and tribulations based on our own strengths and frailties. We face these trying times in our individual manner.

As you aptly mentioned that Gurbani teaches us, 'ਨਾ ਕੋ ਬੈਰੀ ਨਹੀ ਬਿਗਾਨਾ ਸਗਲ ਸੰਗਿ ਹਮ ਕਉ ਬਨਿ ਆਈ ॥੧॥, it gives more weight to the earlier pankti. The wearer of that shoe needs empathy from us and it is our duty as Sikhs to find ways to ease his/her pain.

This is one of many ways one can see what "Vand kei shknah" means.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

PS: Personally I want to thank you for sharing your soul langar with us all the times. Hopefully we will become as thoughtful as you are and delve in the Gurbani as you do. Sikhi is all about questioning in order to find the answers. I call it revelation through investigation.

 

[japjisahib04]

Mohinder Singh ji,


As you aptly mentioned that Gurbani teaches us, 'ਨਾ ਕੋ ਬੈਰੀ ਨਹੀ ਬਿਗਾਨਾ ਸਗਲ ਸੰਗਿ ਹਮ ਕਉ ਬਨਿ ਆਈ ॥੧॥, it gives more weight to the earlier pankti. The wearer of that shoe needs empathy from us and it is our duty as Sikhs to find ways to ease his/her pain.

This is one of many ways one can see what "Vand kei shknah" means.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

PS: Personally I want to thank you for sharing your soul langar with us all the times. Hopefully we will become as thoughtful as you are and delve in the Gurbani as you do. Sikhi is all about questioning in order to find the answers. I call it revelation through investigation.

Tejwant Singh Jee

I thank you very much in sharing your thoughts. But the point I was trying to raise was not to realize or finding ways to ease pain of others but to explore who is others. Because due to compartmentalization desintigration is happening and we are breaking apart and there is no 'praya' as we all have same genes and are children of God but 'praya' is creation of our conditioned intellect and as such we think the other, as other. In gurbani whenever question of 'peera' is coming, it is not worldly sufferings but realization pains of separation from God in positive sense.

Let us see it from different angle, 'ਦੁਖੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਭਇਆ ਜਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਾਮਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ what is 'dukh daru' unlike the general notion and accordingly interpretation of this pankti is done by most of the scholars, that until and unless someone meets a tragedy he does not walk the righteous path, thus suffering is medicine. Is this gurmat perspective? No No. 'Dukh daaru' is, ' ਦੂਖੁ ਘਨੋ ਜਬ ਹੋਤੇ ਦੂਰਿ ॥ I suffered in pain/miseries, when I realized that He was far away/separated from me.Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.384.12. When we have this type of thinking or realization it makes 'dukh' pains of separation as daaru. So in this pankti dukh becomes in positive sense which is in separation of God. whereas second 'sukh rog bhaiya' entangled in worldly luxuries comes in negative sense which is also in separation of God. Then 'ja sukh tam na hoey' - I am looking that 'sukh' which is eternal and by which (taam - ahnkaar)vikars does not enters into my mind at all.


Best regards
sahni

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Mohinder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I thank you very much in sharing your thoughts. But the point I was trying to raise was not to realize or finding ways to ease pain of others but to explore who is others. Because due to compartmentalization desintigration is happening and we are breaking apart and there is no 'praya' as we all have same genes and are children of God but 'praya' is creation of our conditioned intellect and as such we think the other, as other. In gurbani whenever question of 'peera' is coming, it is not worldly sufferings but realization pains of separation from God in positive sense.

Thanks for your response. This is the beauty of Sikhi especially here at SPN. We can have a conversation if when we disagree. This is the way your Gurus wanted us to be.

In Sikhi, there is no separation between ourselves and Ik Ong Kaar. It is an Abrahamic thought process which got inserted in Sikhi by the earlier translators of Gurbani who were all Christians; hence the biblical twist was unconscious. Sadly, the Sikhs who became their students continued with the same mentality.

Ik Ong Kaar resides in all of us and is manifested by us through our deeds. This modus operandi is learnt by us through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, our tool box, our GPS.

All sufferings are worldly sufferings. We all go through trials and tribulations which life brings us. And, if our deeds are not as per Gurmat values, then we pay the price and suffer.

One finds oneself “separated from God” by living in an anti Gurmat manner and it could be painful for many who realise this. For those who do not, it does not matter because the cable is not plugged in the Gurmat socket.

Let us see it from different angle, 'ਦੁਖੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਭਇਆ ਜਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਾਮਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ’ ॥ what is 'dukh daru' unlike the general notion and accordingly interpretation of this pankti is done by most of the scholars, that until and unless someone meets a tragedy he does not walk the righteous path, thus suffering is medicine. Is this gurmat perspective? No No. 'Dukh daaru' is, ' ਦੂਖੁ ਘਨੋ ਜਬ ਹੋਤੇ ਦੂਰਿ’ ॥ I suffered in pain/miseries, when I realized that He was far away/separated from me.Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.384.12. When we have this type of thinking or realization it makes 'dukh' pains of separation as daaru. So in this pankti dukh becomes in positive sense which is in separation of God. whereas second 'sukh rog bhaiya' entangled in worldly luxuries comes in negative sense which is also in separation of God. Then 'ja sukh tam na hoey' - I am looking that 'sukh' which is eternal and by which (taam - ahnkaar)vikars does not enters into my mind at all.

I beg to differ with you again. We, as Sikhs lead a Miri-Piri life where setbacks are not rare but to the contrary. The above Pankti exactly tells us that we all learn from our experiences and it is funny, when we talk about experiences, they are always related to our setbacks that life offers us in all aspects. Learning from setbacks is, 'ਦੁਖੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਭਇਆ ਜਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਾਮਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ’ ॥ in my opinion. We can only relish the life of Piri when we know how to conduct our lives in the realm of Miri with the help of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Ik Ong Kaar dwells within us unlike in other religions where it is a deity and resides in the clouds somewhere.

The same goes for the pankti, 'ਦੂਖੁ ਘਨੋ ਜਬ ਹੋਤੇ ਦੂਰਿ’. ਹੋਤੇ ਦੂਰਿ does not mean separated from Ik Ong Kaar, but falling off the Gurmat path by not taking the scenic route of life rather choosing the one filled with potholes. In this pankti ਦੂਖੁ is self inflicted. The Rahao part of the Shabad shows us that.

To put it in another way, these are the 'oops' moments/periods of our lives which happen quite frequently. We all take the wrong exits when we are on the Gurmat motor/freeway. The realisation of this what you call 'separation'.

Having said that, we may be talking about the same things by using different terminology.

Thanks for the great interaction.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[japjisahib04]

In Sikhi, there is no separation between ourselves and Ik Ong Kaar. It is an Abrahamic thought process which got inserted in Sikhi by the earlier translators of Gurbani who were all Christians; hence the biblical twist was unconscious. Sadly, the Sikhs who became their students continued with the same mentality.

Ik Ong Kaar resides in all of us and is manifested by us through our deeds. This modus operandi is learnt by us through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, our tool box, our GPS.

All sufferings are worldly sufferings. We all go through trials and tribulations which life brings us. And, if our deeds are not as per Gurmat values, then we pay the price and suffer.

Tejwant Singh Jee

I am really grateful to you for bringing up this enlightenment through differet terminlogy. I know Ik Ong Kaar resides in all of us but when guru sahibs says, 'ਇਕ ਘੜੀ ਨ ਮਿਲਤੇ ਤਾ ਕਲਿਜੁਗੁ ਹੋਤਾ ॥ ਹੁਣਿ ਕਦਿ ਮਿਲੀਐ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਗਵੰਤਾ ॥ ਮੋਹਿ ਰੈਣਿ ਨ ਵਿਹਾਵੈ ਨੀਦ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਦੇਖੇ ਗੁਰ ਦਰਬਾਰੇ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥ is not this pain of separation or 'ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸੁ ਪਿੰਜਰ ਮਹਿ ਬਿਰਹਾ ਨਹੀ ਸੋ ਪਿੰਜਰੁ ਲੈ ਜਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ was Guru sahib living in anti gurmat way or is Guru sahib applying this pankti on him despite in tuned with Ik Ong Kaar for us to learn.

Further I would like know when guru sahib says, 'ਜਤਨ ਬਹੁਤ ਸੁਖ ਕੇ ਕੀਏ ਦੁਖ ਕੋ ਕੀਓ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ do anyone tries for worldly sufferings or is it again for realization.

I beg to differ with you again. We, as Sikhs lead a Miri-Piri life where setbacks are not rare but to the contrary. The above Pankti exactly tells us that we all learn from our experiences and it is funny, when we talk about experiences, they are always related to our setbacks that life offers us in all aspects. Learning from setbacks is, 'ਦੁਖੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਭਇਆ ਜਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਾਮਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ’ ॥ in my opinion. We can only relish the life of Piri when we know how to conduct our lives in the realm of Miri with the help of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

In that case what was the setback for our Guru and bhagats that they decided to walk on the path of gurmat. If there was no setback then, let us make them our milestone on this point.

best regards
sahni

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Imho..the Gurus and Bhagats have no "setbacks"..the Gurbani is FOR US..ordinary humans who do really suffer many setbacks..

 

[chazSingh]

Imho..the Gurus and Bhagats have no "setbacks"..the Gurbani is FOR US..ordinary humans who do really suffer many setbacks..

Sometimes i contemplate that if God really is within all, then God feels the pain we feel during our setbacks because God is aware that they occur due to the 5 Thieves.

The Gurus being one with God, would share that collective sense of Humanity being driven by Lust, Anger, Ego, Greed and Desire, hence why Guru Ji calls out in Gurbani many time asking to be saved, blessed, pulled from drowing etc etc etc.

Just some thoughts and feelings, nothing more.

God Bless

 

[Harry Haller]

Sometimes i contemplate that if God really is within all, then God feels the pain we feel during our setbacks because God is aware that they occur due to the 5 Thieves.

The Gurus being one with God, would share that collective sense of Humanity being driven by Lust, Anger, Ego, Greed and Desire, hence why Guru Ji calls out in Gurbani many time asking to be saved, blessed, pulled from drowing etc etc etc.

Just some thoughts and feelings, nothing more.

God Bless

I think the more we try and humanise God, the further away from the Sikh concept we get, my own opinion only

 

[japjisahib04]

I think the more we try and humanise God, the further away from the Sikh concept we get, my own opinion only

Yes I agree with you. Likewise when guru sahib says, 'ਹਮ ਅਵਗੁਣਿ ਭਰੇ ਏਕੁ ਗੁਣੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਛਾਡਿ ਬਿਖੈ ਬਿਖੁ ਖਾਈ ॥ does not mean that our gurus were filled with demerits. Guru sahib throughout gurbani nowhere stated 'tum avgun bharai'. That was height of humility and unique technique applied by our guru in writing the gurbani. It was passing the message for us to follow. Sameway, I don't think out of fear or setbacks one can comprehend or live according to divine message. God never wants us to suffer or have setbacks, it is all our choices. Thus with setbacks it is formalities and all hollow. It is all out of love and love only.

best regards
sahni

 

[chazSingh]

I think the more we try and humanise God, the further away from the Sikh concept we get, my own opinion only

Definately wouldn't humanise God But when Guru Ji says to look within, i guess the assumption is that God is an integral part of our very being...or true nature/self. Fire exists within Wood and there's no way i can make Fire 'wood' like but the two seem to co-exist very well.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Tejwant Singh Jee

I am really grateful to you for bringing up this enlightenment through differet terminlogy. I know Ik Ong Kaar resides in all of us but when guru sahibs says, 'ਇਕ ਘੜੀ ਨ ਮਿਲਤੇ ਤਾ ਕਲਿਜੁਗੁ ਹੋਤਾ ॥ ਹੁਣਿ ਕਦਿ ਮਿਲੀਐ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਗਵੰਤਾ ॥ ਮੋਹਿ ਰੈਣਿ ਨ ਵਿਹਾਵੈ ਨੀਦ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਦੇਖੇ ਗੁਰ ਦਰਬਾਰੇ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥ is not this pain of separation or 'ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸੁ ਪਿੰਜਰ ਮਹਿ ਬਿਰਹਾ ਨਹੀ ਸੋ ਪਿੰਜਰੁ ਲੈ ਜਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ was Guru sahib living in anti gurmat way or is Guru sahib applying this pankti on him despite in tuned with Ik Ong Kaar for us to learn.

Further I would like know when guru sahib says, 'ਜਤਨ ਬਹੁਤ ਸੁਖ ਕੇ ਕੀਏ ਦੁਖ ਕੋ ਕੀਓ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ do anyone tries for worldly sufferings or is it again for realization.


In that case what was the setback for our Guru and bhagats that they decided to walk on the path of gurmat. If there was no setback then, let us make them our milestone on this point.

best regards
sahni

Mohinder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

We can go on and on parsing Gurbani to prove our point which is a practice in futility for a Sikh.

I want to thank Gyani ji for responding on my behalf below and those are exactly my thoughts.

Gyani ji's response:

Imho..the Gurus and Bhagats have no "setbacks"..the Gurbani is FOR US..ordinary humans who do really suffer many setbacks..

I hope now you understand what the meaning of the tuks are.


Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[japjisahib04]

Thank you, Jios. My only intention was to clarify and not to go on in futility. I am here only to learn.

best regards
sahni