- Dec 21, 2010
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Veer Chazsingh ji let us help each other. Reincarnation is a huge separate thread. Please comment there.
Sat Sri Akal.
One Infinite Creator In Sikhism, What Does It Mean?
Sat Sri Akal.
The "experience" is what counts - (we say keep our mind low and wisdom exalted everyday in Ardas -wisdom flows to the mind from "somewhere" ) - things you never knew before are illuminated in a way you never imagined possible - the Guru is the Teacher and sends the information download. Where is this source of intelligence coming from? I can only say ONE Formless "energy" a feeling/vibration and data dump within. When we surrender to the will, then things are made clear. I know nothing but listen and then take the action. Blessings.
I have sold my body and mind to the Guru, and I have given my mind and head as well - Guru Nanak
Those who have good destiny pre-ordained and inscribed on their foreheads, grasp it and keep it enshrined in the heart- Guru Amar Das
Call permanent only the One, who does not have destiny inscribed upon His Forehead - Guru Nanak
He alone is a warrior, and he alone is the chosen one, upon whose forehead good destiny is recorded.
In the month of Jayt'h, the playful Husband Lord meets her, upon whose forehead such good destiny is recorded.
- Dec 21, 2010
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Veer Prakash.S.Bagga ji one comment.
Sat Sri Akal.
This is very true brother Ambarsaria mundahug
In Christianity one sometimes encounters ascetic-minded people who are not focused on this world but rather on an afterlife born of their own imagination.
The Sikh emphasis on living is very impotant in countering this kind of extreme asceticalism. A Christian such as myself can learn much from Sikhism in this respect. For Sikhs, I have learned, there is no division between the profane and sacred. Holiness is not a state in which one tries to flee from the world and its affairs, as is often the case in certain sects of Hinduism, Gnosticism and in Buddhism where the goal is to liberate oneself from an illusionary world. In such systems of thought the material and fleshly is very much demeaned and the Universe/Creation is sometimes seen as something that restrains or imprisons the spirit and must be fled from; at its most extreme in the gnostic model creation is seen as "evil". For Sikhs creation is permeated with the presence and reality of God, who is in all things without being contained by them or limited to them, indeed he both indwells all created things and at the same time transcends them. Creation is good in Sikhism, the world is good, reality is good. This transitory, material world is part of the Infinite God and shares his attributes, partakes of them, bears His trace in all things.
It is not tommorrow, not in some mythical, unknowable, uncertifiable afterlife or indeed in another lifetime that we experience the Infinite One, the Beautiful, Our Glorious Beloved but rather it is in our 'everyday' or 'daily' lives.
Unlike some faiths, or should one say understanding by disciples of those faiths, Sikhism is not so much an 'Orthodoxy' (right/correct belief) as it is an 'Orthopraxy' (right/correct action). In Sikhi an existence lived according to truth, a truthful life, is accounted as being greater even than the grasping of Truth itself:
"...Higher than everything is Truth but higher still is True living..."
- Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, p62
Sikhs thus find God and holiness in the midst of everyday life.
The Adi Granth encapsulated the Sikh attitude to holiness for me in these words:
"...Spiritual liberation is attained in the midst of laughing, playing, dressing up and eating..."
- Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, p 522
Sikhism posits such a positive attitude to life and living. It reminds me of the Rabbinic teaching that the meaning of life is simply 'to live'.
And it correlates much better with the actual teachings of the Lord Jesus, his Apostles, the Church Fathers, saints and teachings of the Catholic Church than any attempt to try and flee reality and demean life.
The above quote in fact reminds me of Jesus' life.
When describing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, religious leaders of Judea, Jesus explained how they found fault with John the Baptist's "ascetic" life by claiming he was demon possessed and then found fault also with Jesus' life which they saw as too "worldly":
"...For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon’; the Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!..."
- Jesus Christ (Luke 7:33-34 NRSV)
CS Lewis, the great Anglican theologian, commented:
"...Our Lord Jesus pointed out the contrast between the hermit and ascetic John the Baptist, and Himself who drank wine and went to dinner parties and jostled with every kind of man..."
Jesus was thus viewed disdainfully by the religious leaders of his day as a "vagabond" who refused to follow the laws of ritual cleanliness, and for not separating the holy from the everyday.
"...His disciples said to him, 'When will the rest of the dead come about, and when will the new world come?'
He said to them, 'What you look forward to has already come, but you do not recognize it.'..."
- Jesus Christ
"...You examine the face of heaven and earth, but you have not come to know the one who is in your presence, and you do not know how to examine the present moment..."
- Jesus Christ
"Hearken to the word, understand knowledge, love life, and no one will persecute you, nor will anyone oppress you, other than you yourselves...I have remembered your tears and your grief and your sorrow. They are far from us...You are the Beloved; you are those who will become a cause of life for many. Beseech the Father. Yours is life! Rejoice and be glad as children of God...This is why I say this to you, that you may know yourselves. For the Kingdom of Heaven is like an ear of grain which sprouted in a field. And when it ripened, it scattered its fruit and, in turn, filled the field with ears of grain for another year. You also: be zealous to reap for yourselves an ear of life, that you may be filled with the Kingdom!"
- Jesus Christ
"...I came that they may have life, and have it to the full..."
- Jesus Christ
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the mere definition of matter has changed since the text books we once read at school...
When they cracked open an atom, guess what they found.....nothing
an atom is 99% empty space (they call it spave becasue they cannot detect whats in it), the remaing 1% is protons and neutron.
The positive and negative charges in all of the atoms in our bodys, and the surroundings create the feeling of solidness in wood/metal or the less dense feeling of water.
Therefore the chair i currently sit on is 99% empty space...is it really there as a solid item...or is my body computer making it feel solid so that i dont fall through it
my belief is that that 99% is the naam, energy, universal vibration, universal consciousness that flows through all of creation...the unseen, formless, the EK from which came the ONG (sound, vibration). and the 1% is the Kaar (the skin, creation, the form of the formless, the created, the visible).
Just my theory. I don't actually know anything
all is god...the all knowing.I think that the teachings of the biblical book of Ecclesiastes are very in tune with Sikhi values:
"...There is nothing better for mortals than to eat and drink, and find enjoyment in their toil. This also, I saw, is from the hand of God; for apart from him who can eat or who can have enjoyment?... I know that there is nothing better for them than to be happy and enjoy themselves as long as they live; moreover, it is God's gift that all should eat and drink and take pleasure in all their toil. I said in my heart with regard to human beings that God is testing them to show that they are but animals. For the fate of humans and the fate of animals is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals; for all is impermanent, like breath. All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knows whether the human spirit goes upward and the spirit of animals goes downward to the earth? So I saw that there is nothing better than that all should enjoy their work, for that is their lot; who can bring them to see what will be after them?...As they [human beings] came from their mother's womb, so they shall go again, naked as they came...This is what I have seen to be good: it is fitting to eat and drink and find enjoyment in all the toil with which one toils under the sun the few days of the life God gives us; for this is our lot. Likewise all to whom God gives wealth and possessions and whom he enables to enjoy them, and to accept their lot and find enjoyment in their toil--this is the gift of God. For they will scarcely brood over the days of their lives, because God keeps them occupied with the joy of their hearts...Whoever is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing...Go, eat your bread with enjoyment, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God has long ago approved what you do. Let your garments always be white; do not let oil be lacking on your head. Enjoy life with the wife whom you love, all the days of your fleeting life that are given you under the sun, because that is your portion in life and in your toil at which you toil under the sun. Whatever your hand finds to do, do with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in death, to which you are going...Just as you do not know how the breath comes to the bones in the mother's womb, so you do not know the work of God, who makes everything...Rejoice, young man, while you are young, and let your heart cheer you in the days of your youth. Follow the inclination of your heart and the desire of your eyes...Banish anxiety from your mind, and put away pain from your body; for youth and the dawn of life are impermanent. Remember your creator in the days of your youth..."
- Book of Ecclesiastes, Holy Bible
Its my FAVOURITE BOOK OF THE BIBLE peacesignkaur
"...There is nothing better for mortals than to eat and drink, and find enjoyment in their toil. This also, I saw, is from the hand of God; for apart from him who can eat or who can have enjoyment?... I know that there is nothing better for them than to be happy and enjoy themselves as long as they live; moreover, it is God's gift that all should eat and drink and take pleasure in all their toil. I said in my heart with regard to human beings that God is testing them to show that they are but animals. For the fate of humans and the fate of animals is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals; for all is impermanent, like breath. All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knows whether the human spirit goes upward and the spirit of animals goes downward to the earth? So I saw that there is nothing better than that all should enjoy their work, for that is their lot; who can bring them to see what will be after them?...As they [human beings] came from their mother's womb, so they shall go again, naked as they came...This is what I have seen to be good: it is fitting to eat and drink and find enjoyment in all the toil with which one toils under the sun the few days of the life God gives us; for this is our lot. Likewise all to whom God gives wealth and possessions and whom he enables to enjoy them, and to accept their lot and find enjoyment in their toil--this is the gift of God. For they will scarcely brood over the days of their lives, because God keeps them occupied with the joy of their hearts...Whoever is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing...Go, eat your bread with enjoyment, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God has long ago approved what you do. Let your garments always be white; do not let oil be lacking on your head. Enjoy life with the wife whom you love, all the days of your fleeting life that are given you under the sun, because that is your portion in life and in your toil at which you toil under the sun. Whatever your hand finds to do, do with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in death, to which you are going...Just as you do not know how the breath comes to the bones in the mother's womb, so you do not know the work of God, who makes everything...Rejoice, young man, while you are young, and let your heart cheer you in the days of your youth. Follow the inclination of your heart and the desire of your eyes...Banish anxiety from your mind, and put away pain from your body; for youth and the dawn of life are impermanent. Remember your creator in the days of your youth..."
- Book of Ecclesiastes, Holy Bible
Its my FAVOURITE BOOK OF THE BIBLE peacesignkaur
Once we take time to understand our own minds...to understand how thoughts are generated, where they come from, what influences them then Gurbani takes a whole new meaning. you start to delve deeper into the mansroaver, the knowledge contained within.
start to seperate yourself from your mind, for we are not the mind..we are the soul..start analyzing the thoughts as though they are a seperate entity, laugh at the crazy thoughts, see how the mind tries to control you...eventually the mind will give up...and you'll start to hear the voice of God...the one thought which is divine and perfect..
This is my belief and what you seem to be experiencing. I get it sometimes as well, you just know that that one particular thought grabs you by the arm and just feels so right. Intuition - divine all knowing thought
On keeping with the Topic of this thread. The one creator God...the creation was created by a thought, god wanting to experience himself...maybe the Anhad shabad / naam flowing through the universe is the universal minds thought's flowing and creating the form. Gods thought
This is just a thought that flew into my mind just now
quite interesting...and has got me thinking....- Aug 28, 2010
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the mere definition of matter has changed since the text books we once read at school...
When they cracked open an atom, guess what they found.....nothing
an atom is 99% empty space (they call it spave becasue they cannot detect whats in it), the remaing 1% is protons and neutron.
The positive and negative charges in all of the atoms in our bodys, and the surroundings create the feeling of solidness in wood/metal or the less dense feeling of water.
Therefore the chair i currently sit on is 99% empty space...is it really there as a solid item...or is my body computer making it feel solid so that i dont fall through it
my belief is that that 99% is the naam, energy, universal vibration, universal consciousness that flows through all of creation...the unseen, formless, the EK from which came the ONG (sound, vibration). and the 1% is the Kaar (the skin, creation, the form of the formless, the created, the visible).
Just my theory. I don't actually know anything
My understanding is that it 100% NAAMu only. As NAAMu is perfect and complete. NAAMu is a WAVE/VIBRATION and therefore has FORM.
Prakash.S.Bagga
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Prakash.S.Bagga ji define and clarify NAAMu as perhaps 99.99% don't think of it like you do. For me it is developed understanding of the creator through SGGS. What do you believe it to be?
Sat Sri Akal.
It most likely is all naam...for there is no space where god isnt. the 1% would be waheguru Ji / naam also.
I get really excited thinking about this all...the thirst within just wells up.
How amazing is the creation of EKONGKAAR. I just want to sit and meditate and contemplate some more..ask these sorts of questions and see what comes up in the mind from within.
What is your opinion on the anhad shabad, the vibrations from the formless being gods thoughts which generate the form.
for example...we all have invisble thoughts in our mind...no form...but when we have an angry thought...this formless vibration causes the form i.e. blood pressure to rise, heart to beat faster, face to turn red, eyes to squint...
Would this not be the method of creation for god...Universal mind, generating thoughts that create/sustain/destroy the form? Naam?
There are probable quotes depicting this in gurbani...will have a look.
appologies for blabbing on like a fool...god bless all.- Aug 28, 2010
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For me NAAMu is RAM NAAMu /HARi NAAMu or Gurmati RAM NAAMu.
I dont know how you interprate these.
Prakash.s.Bagga
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Prakash.S.Bagga ji people answer questions with information and not one liners. See posts by Vouthon ji (a much younger person), and many others. Why they do that because they give respect and want to learn and hep. Your Ramu, Shamu, Prabhu one liner stuff really is pretty useless and at best a way to mis-lead like say many Nirmalas do. Basically create confusion and destroy Sikhism. Sorry to again come back to your antics of not being helpful but just a one liner poster.
May you one day have the courage to post your beliefs in detail and not be scared that you might find challenges.
Sat Sri Akal.
What is the energy behind a seed germinating, and a plant forming, cell by cell, then the plant forming more seeds, that fall and then create some more...what is that driving force...the conciousness that causes this.
What is the thoughts/energy/vibration/shabad that cries out inside of a child when it is hungry telling it to cry for food, when it hasnt ever seen food or doesnt know what food is, or the concept of eating.
What is the force and thought process that stops me and you from jumping off a cliff. people say it's 'survival instict' the bodies mechanism to stay alive...so your body has consciousness deeper than your own level of consciosness
What causes the dying of cells and regenration within our bodies.
What holds everything in the universe together.
Its all naam. Can we describe it? not really...we just know its there.
The anhad shabad/naam/life force/universal mind which the Gurus tapped into and in this world transfered it to Gurbani.
Question is can we connect to it and soak up the knowledge that the all knowing God has? can we literally feel one with everything even when someone puts a gun to our heads? or sits us on a Hot plate or wants to pour red hot sand over our bodies.
The Guru's did it...we can do it...
thats what i believe anyway.
god bless all.
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chazSingh veer ji thanks for your input. The issue is that a poster needs to respectfully answer questions or say they don't want to answer. This stuff without explanations has destroyed many a threads at spn or made them jammed. Such behavior is reality and pretty destructive. Hence the request and pleading at times to be truthful and straight versus riddling. Children riddle, a 60 year old man shares and does not need to hide behind riddles.
Sat Sri Akal.
Sat Sri Akal.
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Unless you come out of your prejudiced views related to Gurbanee words
it is most difficult for you to understand..
So far I find none other then your goodself to be so obsessed with Hindu Philosophy words that you remain in the dark to come to the reality of the words. Seeing any word as related to Hindu philosophy you are unable tolerate .
With such a calcitrant approach how can you expect anyone to share the views.In fact Mr VOUTHON is an example before you how to respect others views.
From Gurbanee you should know that NAAMu is refered as MATTER and is SUPREME ELEMENT. You can see even Prof Sahib Singhs interpretation as to what is NAAM.? I hope that should be more satifying you.
Prakash.s.Bagga
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It most likely is all naam...for there is no space where god isnt. the 1% would be waheguru Ji / naam also.
I get really excited thinking about this all...the thirst within just wells up.
How amazing is the creation of EKONGKAAR. I just want to sit and meditate and contemplate some more..ask these sorts of questions and see what comes up in the mind from within.
What is your opinion on the anhad shabad, the vibrations from the formless being gods thoughts which generate the form.
for example...we all have invisble thoughts in our mind...no form...but when we have an angry thought...this formless vibration causes the form i.e. blood pressure to rise, heart to beat faster, face to turn red, eyes to squint...
Would this not be the method of creation for god...Universal mind, generating thoughts that create/sustain/destroy the form? Naam?
There are probable quotes depicting this in gurbani...will have a look.
ANHAD SABAD as I understand is reference for a SOUND produced without any strike of two physical things...
You can listen to a sound similar to this when air is flowing at a speed beyond which a sound is created automatically.Pl note Sound is not FORMLESS.
So try to understand how this Sound is created.?
Prakash.s.Bagga
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Prakash.S.Bagga ji thanks for the post. I will comment now that you have given your insight into NAAMu.
Sat Sri Akal.
The comments are not personal. The comments would be the same if Ramu wrote these. The object is to ensure that truth of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Sikhism is not destroyed through plan or ignorance or innocence.
Sat Sri Akal.
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A 60 year old can see thru the words of sharing the intention behind that.
A 60 year old can not be befooled as he has reached 60 years with experience .
Prakash.S.Bagga
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I never take your comments personal.
I have already told , I am supposed to write here what satisifies you?
Probably not
If Sangat does not like my views your admin is free to delete that.I wont object. Admin is free to do that.
Prakash.S.Bagga
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AMBARSARIA Ji,
In fact i wanted to avoid to answer to your personal questions in this thread.Butsince you have raised certain points which I must respond to.
1..Regdng How to respect other views
Probably you dont know how to be respectful i can say only that.
2.NAAMu as MATTER
You will not be able to give a single Quote from SGGS from where one can Knowtha Naam is understanding. This is your own understanding.
3...Regdng SUREME ELEMENT
Where is the difference between CREATOR and NAAM?
4..Prof Sahib Singh s interpretation is your best choice.isnt it?
So my der brother dont try to throw your own weaknesses on others shoulders.
This is done in childhoods.
Prakash.S.Bagga
In fact i wanted to avoid to answer to your personal questions in this thread.Butsince you have raised certain points which I must respond to.
1..Regdng How to respect other views
Probably you dont know how to be respectful i can say only that.
2.NAAMu as MATTER
You will not be able to give a single Quote from SGGS from where one can Knowtha Naam is understanding. This is your own understanding.
3...Regdng SUREME ELEMENT
Where is the difference between CREATOR and NAAM?
4..Prof Sahib Singh s interpretation is your best choice.isnt it?
So my der brother dont try to throw your own weaknesses on others shoulders.
This is done in childhoods.
Prakash.S.Bagga
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