DISCUSSION ON OTHER THREADS - UPDATE
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sikh80
Interpretation Of paudi –4
6.ਕਰਮੀ ਆਵੈ ਕਪੜਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਮੋਖੁ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥
7.ਨਾਨਕ ਏਵੈ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ ॥੪॥
It is through Karmas that one gets this Human body and it through HIS grace only that one finds Liberation. It is also stated that HE is the ‘Sat’.
[The concept of Liberation has been discussed in the paudi-2 and 3. The liberation is obtained only with HIS grace. The bani tells us that it is only the route available to the mankind. One should lead the life as per Guru’s teachings and seek liberation as per HIS grace.]
7.ਕਰਮੀ=ਕਰਮ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ, (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ) ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਸ਼/ਰਹਿਮਤ/ਮਿਹਰ/ਕਿਰਪਾ ਨਾਲ, ਅਮਲਾਂ ਦਾ ਲੇਖਾ/ਸਦਕਾ, ਚੰਗੇ ਭਾਗ ਨਾਲ, ਕਿਸਮਤ ਨਾਲ, ਸੰਸਕਾਰਾਂ ਕਾਰਨ। SGGS Gurmukhi-English Dictionary=Var. From Karama
Bhul Chuk Mauf
It says KAPRA = CLOTHING NOT OUR BODY! please clarify your supposition! bul chuk maaf
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ਕਰਮੀ ਆਵੈ ਕਪੜਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਮੋਖੁ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥
karamee aavai kaparraa nadharee mokh dhuaar ||
By the Karma of past actions, the robe of this physical body is obtained. By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found.
ਨਾਨਕ ਏਵੈ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ ॥੪॥
naanak eaevai jaaneeai sabh aapae sachiaar ||4||
O Nanak, know this well: the True One Himself is All. ||4||
Ang 2
ਕਪੜਾ
kaparraa - literally clothing or covering for the body; but in this instance, the body is the covering or robe; and in the context of the shabad, the covering is obtained through our past actions and it is nothing in contemplation of the Divine. Forgive me.
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Well I have read this before too, but what is your support for kapra being body in this instance. The conext does not make for kapra to be infrenced as body, unless you have some presupposition that this is how it is supposed to be! Also please read ny thread on reincarnation to see my point of view! bul chuk maaf!
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If you read first Guru Vaak, Guru ji instructs followers to do deeds of praising the Lord, that deed is also known as gift( Kapra), this is very much clear in Maajh Ki Vaar, M-1, Pouri 27, here, Kapra doesn’t mean human body, Guru ji says, during early hours of Morning, Lord’s name should be contemplated; however, such gift of praising the Lord, comes by Lord’s blessings( karmi is from Karm= blessing, so Nadr and Karmee here mean Lord's grace/blessings), and with Lord’s grace one sees Him. To interpret “Kapra” for human body looks very odd in this Guru Vaa[/FONT]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
pk70
If you read first Guru Vaak, Guru ji instructs followers to do deeds of praising the Lord, that deed is also known as gift( Kapra), this is very much clear in Maajh Ki Vaar, M-1, Pouri 27, here, Kapra doesn’t mean human body, Guru ji says, during early hours of Morning, Lord’s name should be contemplated; however, such gift of praising the Lord, comes by Lord’s blessings( karmi is from Karm= blessing, so Nadr and Karmee here mean Lord's grace/blessings), and with Lord’s grace one sees Him. To interpret “Kapra” for human body looks very odd in this Guru Vaa[/FONT]
well, literal meaning of karam is = deeds not blessing, but if karam could be done by us or prewritten. If prewritten = blessing, if not then?> but for sure increncing kapra as body is not good inference. can you please post in gurmukhi
Maajh Ki Vaar, M-1, Pouri 27.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
ax0547
well, literal meaning of karam is = deeds not blessing, but if karam could be done by us or prewritten. If prewritten = blessing, if not then?> but for sure increncing kapra as body is not good inference. can you please post in gurmukhi Maajh Ki Vaar, M-1, Pouri 27.
Karm means blessing, kirpa, reham also, so please do not box it into one meaning.
Go and check Majh Ki Vaar Mehla 1, Pouri 27, Page 150-SGGSJi, I cannot post it right now due to time.
There is no hint of pre written at least in this Guru Vaak, assumptions have no limits though. Thanks.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
ax0547
Well I have read this before too, but what is your support for kapra being body in this instance. The conext does not make for kapra to be infrenced as body, unless you have some presupposition that this is how it is supposed to be! Also please read ny thread on reincarnation to see my point of view! bul chuk maaf!
Now I understand that you are seeking a meaning in context -- Here is what Professor Surinder Singh Kohli gives us as the definition of
Kaapara/kaphra in Dictionary of
Guru Granth Sahib (2005)
kaapara = clothes, or clothes of the body.
What can throw a person off is the transliteration
Kaapara/kaphra. They are the same word
कपड़ा . In the context of the shabad kaapara suggests that the body is the robe or covering of the self. It says it right there in the shabad.
Here are 2 translations of the same line. I have included the entire pauree.
saachaa saahib saach naa-ay bhaakhi-aa bhaa-o apaar.
True Master, True is His Name - Meditate it with utmost humility and deep love.
aakhahi mangahi dayhi dayhi daat karay daataar.
Ask and plead, "Give, give" - The Giver gives in abundance.
fayr ke agai rakhee-ai jit disai darbaar.
What can we place before Him, by which the Darbaar can be seen?
muhou ke bolan bolee-ai jit sun Dharay pi-aar.
What words can our mouth utter, listening to which His Love is gained?
Amrit vaylaa sach naa-o vadi-aa-ee veechaar.
In the Ambrosial period, dwell upon His True Name and praises.
karmee aavai कपड़ा kaapara kaprhaa nadree mokh du-aar.
With good past karmas, this robe is obtained, By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found. (Sant Sahib Singh)
By Good actions the physical robe is obtained and by the Lord's benediction the gate of salvation. (Manmohan Singh trans.)
naanak ayvai jaanee-ai sabh aapay sachiaar.
O Nanak, know this well: Everything is in the Righteous Lord!
My interpretation of this (not my translation)
The
Guru is saying: We beg and beg and He gives and gives in abundance. So then, what can we offer to Him, place before Him. What words (prayers) can we say now that we can listen to (hear His love).
And the answer is...
Dwell upon his naam (contemplate the Naam) and His praises. And if we have good karams then we will obtain the robe of goodness, of virtue-- our body will be covered with virtue, with goodness. The gate of mukhti, liberation will be opened for us. Everything is known, comes through Him.
Many times in the Bani of
Guru Nanak he uses the metaphor of clothing, not to mean our physical attire, but rather to mean -- cover ourselves with virtue and goodness. So for kaapara to mean robe makes perfect sense.
Guru Nanak will use the word
khinthhaa in the same way, not to mean literally "coat," but the virtue that
khinthhaa stands for.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
ax0547
well, literal meaning of karam is = deeds not blessing, but if karam could be done by us or prewritten. If prewritten = blessing, if not then?> but for sure increncing kapra as body is not good inference. can you please post in gurmukhi Maajh Ki Vaar, M-1, Pouri 27.
According to Professor Surinder Singh Kohli, in Dictionary of
Guru Granth Sahib (2005) you are correct. The first meaning of karam is actions or deeds. However, the second meaning is blessing or fortune.
In this sense then, past actions when good clothe the body in goodness; past actions when not virtuous clothe the body in a negative way. Everything is by His Grace.
I am veer ji resorting to using this dictionary. The meaning in the shabad was clear to me without the dictionary. However, the bias of Sant Sahib Singh was questioned in an earlier post. And some may have questions about my ability to comprehend the
Guru. Therefore, I sought out the dictionary as a separate and independent source of understanding. I am more than willing to check any other terms if members are interested.
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Well, thank for your clarity. It would be really nice if you can give some exampes of karam's meaning as blessing or how it is derived. My whole point is that this usage of Karam is not the KARAMA used by hindu's for theorizing about reincarnation.
Overall there are three meanings of word "karam"
- deeds/work
- blessings (according to you)
- measuring unit ( 1 karam, 2 karam)
- our destiny!
overall, do we agree that these karmas are not from past life, but our actions done in this lifetime or to be done! Thoug I agree with your interpretation that the tuk is about us recieveing blessings due to our virtues?
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Many times in the Bani of
Guru Nanak he uses the metaphor of clothing, not to mean our physical attire, but rather to mean -- cover ourselves with virtue and goodness. So for kaapara to mean robe makes perfect sense.
Guru Nanak will use the word
khinthhaa in the same way, not to mean literally "coat," but the virtue that
khinthhaa stands for.[/quote]
I think though robe makes sense, using the word past, "good" actions, and "physical" and so on is putting one's own perpective and not conveyed by
Guru sahib, instead it should be left to reader! these words tend to lead one into believeing that
Guru sahib is talking about reincarnation being dependent upon our Karams, which is cearly not the case yet!
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Re: Paudi-4-Jap Ji Sahib Interpretation >>
Email This Topic To Your Friends Quote:
Originally Posted by
aad0002
According to Professor Surinder Singh Kohli, in Dictionary of Guru Granth Sahib (2005) you are correct. The first meaning of karam is actions or deeds. However, the second meaning is blessing or fortune.
In this sense then, past actions when good clothe the body in goodness; past actions when not virtuous clothe the body in a negative way. Everything is by His Grace.
I am veer ji resorting to using this dictionary. The meaning in the shabad was clear to me without the dictionary. However, the bias of Sant Sahib Singh was questioned in an earlier post. And some may have questions about my ability to comprehend the Guru. Therefore, I sought out the dictionary as a separate and independent source of understanding. I am more than willing to check any other terms if members are interested.
Aad 0002 Jio
With all due respect, I strongly disagree with your interpretation of Kapra as body; it doesn’t add up as per Guru instruction in the first Guru Vaak, it is the” Praise of Lord which is described as a robe of praise. You can still use Mr. Kohli’s meaning of`Kapra, a robe, to cover body, in this Guru Vaak, first Guru ji talks about “praise of Lord” which is referred as “Kapra in the second Guru Vaak, From where this body has come? Good deeds? Guru ji doesnt talk about previous life. If one is monkey in previous life, he can become human being by doing good deeds? What kind of good deeds monkey will do? If body is taken as Kapra of Soul, all souls have this Kapra. Read the following Guru Vaak, Guru ji’s message and meaning of Kapra becomes clearer! It is through His grace we get whatever it is,( even the dasam duaar or to realize Him within) instruction is to follow the path
ਢਾਢੀ ਸਚੈ ਮਹਲਿ ਖਸਮਿ ਬੁਲਾਇਆ ॥
Dẖādẖī sacẖai mahal kẖasam bulā▫i▫ā.
My Lord and Master has summoned me, His minstrel, to the True Mansion of His Presence.
ਸਚੀ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਸਾਲਾਹ ਕਪੜਾ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
Sacẖī sifaṯ sālāh kapṛā pā▫i▫ā.
He has dressed me in the robes of His True Praise and Glory.
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He has dressed me in the robes of His True Praise and Glory.
This is not any different in the figurative meaning of the metaphor used by Sant Singh above. So then how do you prefer to connect the idea of karaam with the concept of kaapara?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
ax0547
Many times in the Bani of Guru Nanak he uses the metaphor of clothing, not to mean our physical attire, but rather to mean -- cover ourselves with virtue and goodness. So for kaapara to mean robe makes perfect sense. Guru Nanak will use the word khinthhaa in the same way, not to mean literally "coat," but the virtue that khinthhaa stands for.
I think though robe makes sense, using the word past, "good" actions, and "physical" and so on is putting one's own perpective and not conveyed by
Guru sahib, instead it should be left to reader! these words tend to lead one into believeing that
Guru sahib is talking about reincarnation being dependent upon our Karams, which is cearly not the case yet![/quote]
veer ji,
You are asking a very subtle question. The perspective is shared by Professor Surinder Singh Kohli in terms of the meaning of the word. But the issue of reincarnation -- I don't see the shabad telling us that our reincarnation is dependent on our good deeds or bad deeds. I see the shabad saying that our pooran kaaram is already known by God and mukhti comes because of He is righteous and grants His Grace.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
aad0002
He has dressed me in the robes of His True Praise and Glory.
This is not any different in the meaning of the metaphor used by Sant Singh above. So then how do you prefer to connect the idea of karaam with the concept of kaapara?
It is different from Sant Singh Khalsa's meaning and metaphoric expression.
Karm means blessings, Urdu poetry is filled with "karm" as blessing, mehar. So karm here stands for His "reham"( grace, blessings) Karmee here doesnt mean"deeds" because deed is alrady exprssed "what we should do in the early morning
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pk70 ji
Yes -- I agree. Kaaram has the meaning of blessings or fortune.
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karmee aavai कपड़ा kaapara kaprhaa nadree mokh du-aar.
With good past karmas, this robe is obtained, By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found. (Sant Sahib Singh)
By Good actions the physical robe is obtained and by the Lord's benediction the gate of salvation. (Manmohan Singh trans.)
So we can say,
With the blessings (of our pooran kasram) this robe is obtained, By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found.
But are not both the blessings, pooran ksaram, and mukhti are by his Grace.
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why do they have to be "past actions", couldn't it just be actions - past or pooran actions sounds like past life actions. If just actions is said, even then the meaning is what it is meant to be. that due to our action we recieve the robe!
