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Bhagat Singh Ji,
Pl mention the pp no for this line
ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰ ਅਥਾਹ ਅਤੋਲੇ ॥
Prakash.S.Bagga
Pl mention the pp no for this line
ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰ ਅਥਾਹ ਅਤੋਲੇ ॥
Prakash.S.Bagga
Grammer / Vyakarn Prof Maninderpal Singh Of Gurmat Gyan Missionary College On Gurbani Grammar
- Thread starter Gyani Jarnail Singh
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BhagatSingh
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Thanks Bhagat Singh ji,
Now in this Quote
ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰ ਅਥਾਹ ਅਤੋਲੇ
The word ਨਿਰਭਉ is PROPER NOUN and
Three words ਨਿਰਵੈਰ ਅਥਾਹ ਅਤੋਲੇ are Adjectives for the Noun word ਨਿਰਭਉ
Thus it is important to have complete grammatical Knowledge how a particular word is Proper Noun or
Adjectives.
One should also understand how an Adjective word is converted into Noun Word.
Prakash.S.Bagga
BhagatSingh
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Thanks Prakash ji.
That clears things up. I watching the second set of the lectures now. If any other questions arise I will post them here.
That clears things up. I watching the second set of the lectures now. If any other questions arise I will post them here.
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I think it is equally important to understand the complete grammar of
the word ਗੁਰੂ (Matra of DULAKAD under its letter R)
From the grammar of this word one may know the significance of Matra AUKAD and DULAKAD for getting the correct reference meanings of various Gurbanee words
based on these matras.
I find there is general silence on the grammar of Gurbanee words with matra of
DULAKAD whereas my understanding is that this is utmost important in
getting true understanding of Gurbanee messages.
Prakash.S.Bagga
the word ਗੁਰੂ (Matra of DULAKAD under its letter R)
From the grammar of this word one may know the significance of Matra AUKAD and DULAKAD for getting the correct reference meanings of various Gurbanee words
based on these matras.
I find there is general silence on the grammar of Gurbanee words with matra of
DULAKAD whereas my understanding is that this is utmost important in
getting true understanding of Gurbanee messages.
Prakash.S.Bagga
Bhagat Ji,
One More RULE that applies to Oorrah and EErree is these are NEVER written without the pronounciation/grammar markers..thats they are never found ALONE. The Oorra essentially has to have an AUNKAD to make it pronouncable !! Similarly EErree will always have a siharee/biharee added - its never found alone. So NIRBHAU here also has to follow this Rule !!
One More RULE that applies to Oorrah and EErree is these are NEVER written without the pronounciation/grammar markers..thats they are never found ALONE. The Oorra essentially has to have an AUNKAD to make it pronouncable !! Similarly EErree will always have a siharee/biharee added - its never found alone. So NIRBHAU here also has to follow this Rule !!
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He illustrates his point with this tuk:
ਕੇਸੋ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਸਦਿਅਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਥਾ ਪੜਹਿ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=39428
He says the this is not talking about Puran's Katha rather katha of God. Because Puran has Aunkad. He also said this isn't talking about Keso Gopal the Pandit.
But Puran, a noun, with Aunkad is a Masculine Singular without a preposition in the verse. It says "Katha of Hari", not "Katha of Puran". The verse says "Katha of Hari i.e. Puran Jio".
So the translation reads in two ways:
1. Call Keso Gopal, the Pandit, to read the tales of Hari, the Puran Jio.
OR
2. Call the Pandits (the worshippers) of the long-haired Gopal, the Cow Herder, to read the tales of Hari, the Puran Jio.
Apparently there was such a person as Keso Gopal. Also Keso Gopal never appears in Guru Granth Sahib as a name of Hari. So #1 is more accurate
BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
# 2 is more correct as the word ਪੰਡਿਤ is Plural Number (This word is without Aukad) and the word KESAV/KESAWAA/KESO is very much there in SGGS as the reference for The CREATOR Hari
If Keso Gopal word is taken for some person then the word PANDIT would be with the matra of Aukad as PANDIT(u).
Prakash.S.Bagga
ਕੇਸੋ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਸਦਿਅਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਥਾ ਪੜਹਿ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=39428
He says the this is not talking about Puran's Katha rather katha of God. Because Puran has Aunkad. He also said this isn't talking about Keso Gopal the Pandit.
But Puran, a noun, with Aunkad is a Masculine Singular without a preposition in the verse. It says "Katha of Hari", not "Katha of Puran". The verse says "Katha of Hari i.e. Puran Jio".
So the translation reads in two ways:
1. Call Keso Gopal, the Pandit, to read the tales of Hari, the Puran Jio.
OR
2. Call the Pandits (the worshippers) of the long-haired Gopal, the Cow Herder, to read the tales of Hari, the Puran Jio.
Apparently there was such a person as Keso Gopal. Also Keso Gopal never appears in Guru Granth Sahib as a name of Hari. So #1 is more accurate
BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
# 2 is more correct as the word ਪੰਡਿਤ is Plural Number (This word is without Aukad) and the word KESAV/KESAWAA/KESO is very much there in SGGS as the reference for The CREATOR Hari
If Keso Gopal word is taken for some person then the word PANDIT would be with the matra of Aukad as PANDIT(u).
Prakash.S.Bagga
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BhagatSingh
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Prakash ji,
Prof said if it has a ਨੂੰ (preposition) between ਪੰਡਿਤ and ਸਦਿਅਹੁ then ਪੰਡਿਤ has to be without Aunkad.
As in:
ਕੇਸੋ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਪੰਡਿਤ (ਨੂੰ) ਸਦਿਅਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ (ਕੀ) ਕਥਾ ਪੜਹਿ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥
Yes, I understand that both Keso/Kesav and Gopal refer to Him but He is never called "Keso Gopal" in Gurbani, it's either Keso or Gopal separately. This is actually a common Indian name. Normally spelled, Keshav Gopal.
Prof said if it has a ਨੂੰ (preposition) between ਪੰਡਿਤ and ਸਦਿਅਹੁ then ਪੰਡਿਤ has to be without Aunkad.
As in:
ਕੇਸੋ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਪੰਡਿਤ (ਨੂੰ) ਸਦਿਅਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ (ਕੀ) ਕਥਾ ਪੜਹਿ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥
Yes, I understand that both Keso/Kesav and Gopal refer to Him but He is never called "Keso Gopal" in Gurbani, it's either Keso or Gopal separately. This is actually a common Indian name. Normally spelled, Keshav Gopal.
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Bhagat Singh ji,
It is important to understand the grammar ogf Prepositions words also.
When preposition is with some plural number Noun word as ਪੰਡਿਤ then the word preposition is also to be considered as Plural Number.
Considering this context now the meaning should be as
Pandits of Keso Gopal be called to read the Katha Puraan(u) of HariHari.
Prakash.S.Bagga
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Bhagat Singh Ji,
It shouls be intersting to take a note of the point if Keso Gopal is some person as Pandit,
GuRu ji asking for, this concept is not in line with Gurmati
In Gurmati there is significance of sangat of Gursikh and here the reference for
Pandits of Keso Gopal is for Sangat of Such Gursikh who will read the Katha Puraanu
of Hari.Hari.
Having a Pandit as person for all religious SANSKAARS is Hindu Tradition and there is no such tradition in gurmati way of life.
Prakash.s.Bagga
It shouls be intersting to take a note of the point if Keso Gopal is some person as Pandit,
GuRu ji asking for, this concept is not in line with Gurmati
In Gurmati there is significance of sangat of Gursikh and here the reference for
Pandits of Keso Gopal is for Sangat of Such Gursikh who will read the Katha Puraanu
of Hari.Hari.
Having a Pandit as person for all religious SANSKAARS is Hindu Tradition and there is no such tradition in gurmati way of life.
Prakash.s.Bagga
BhagatSingh
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Prakash ji,
1. I don't think laymen are qualified enough to read the Puran. Only, a pandit, someone who has spent years studying the Puran, can give a reading and explain it.
Why?
Because they themselves are not qualified. They don't know what they are doing! The Gyani jis are qualified on the other hand. They have been doing it for years.
You may not have to call in Gyanis on your Patths but that's only because you study Guru Granth Sahib.
2. We know Guru Sahib associated with pandits, they recorded shabads of many Brahmins in Guru Granth Sahib. They even helped them out in times of distress, recall Guru Tegh Bahadur ji sacrificing himself for Kashmiri pandits. That is a strong bond! To sacrifice yourself for somebody means you have very intimate relationship with them.
So we cannot rule out pandit Keso Gopal reading and elaborating on Hari's katha, Puran, in the Guru's court.
1. I don't think laymen are qualified enough to read the Puran. Only, a pandit, someone who has spent years studying the Puran, can give a reading and explain it.
No this is false. The exact same thing happens in every religion. We call them Gyani ji or Bhai ji. Most laymen get their Akhand Patth etc done by Gyani jis, Raagis and Bhai Sahibs from the Gurudwara.
Why?
Because they themselves are not qualified. They don't know what they are doing! The Gyani jis are qualified on the other hand. They have been doing it for years.
You may not have to call in Gyanis on your Patths but that's only because you study Guru Granth Sahib.
2. We know Guru Sahib associated with pandits, they recorded shabads of many Brahmins in Guru Granth Sahib. They even helped them out in times of distress, recall Guru Tegh Bahadur ji sacrificing himself for Kashmiri pandits. That is a strong bond! To sacrifice yourself for somebody means you have very intimate relationship with them.
So we cannot rule out pandit Keso Gopal reading and elaborating on Hari's katha, Puran, in the Guru's court.
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Bhagat Singh Ji,
I think this does not apply to the context of the messages of this Banee mentioned as SUDu.The quote under consideration is only one line of the Banee. The consideration of the whole of Banee will make this point
more clear.
Our any of GuRu did ever engaged any specific Pandit to perform
any such Sanskaar? Discussions with the Pandits and or helping them
are different considerations.
Prakash.S.Bagga
BhagatSingh
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Ok I have not read this bani so I will take some time this weekend to read it. I will get back to you if I have any questions.
Agreed so far?
So if the gurus were doing any of the rites and rituals of their time they would consult someone who's job it is to be able to do them correctly. For example, Baba Buddha ji was well versed in rites and rituals and whenever a Guru was granted Gurgaddi he would be called upon to perform the ritual. He fulfills the role of a Pandit.
Another painting showing the same thing:
http://sikhgurusandgurdwaras.info/w...applying-Gurgaddi-Tilak-to-Guru-Arjan-Dev.jpg
Once again, only educated scholars would be familiar with literature like Puran. Most people back then were not educated nor were required to be. Gurus were not as well versed in literature as the pandits were. They even say this in Guru Granth Sahib. Something akin to "Pandits study and debate texts. I only know Hari..." Gurus are masters in spirituality not philosophical texts. So I have no doubt in my mind that they listened to those who were adept in Puranas. Their message for the masses was to draw upon practical spiritual teachings from them.
Reading out the Puran, would be educational for those who listen. Many of Guru Sahibs followers were lower caste and illiterate so this would be puratan learning centres. And we know Guru Amardas ji built many of these. Much later we find Guru Gobind Singh ji translating the Puranas into the native language.
A pandit in a scholar who has spent studying religious and philosophical works, all this life. In addition he is adept in religious rites and rituals. Pandits would have known the proper way for getting married, proper way to cremate someone that has passed away, proper way to store their ashes or release them into sacred waters etc. They do it because they knew how to do it. It is their profession, their job. They study texts which explain the proper way of doing the ritual so they can do their job better. They also engage in studying philosophical and religious texts.
Agreed so far?
So if the gurus were doing any of the rites and rituals of their time they would consult someone who's job it is to be able to do them correctly. For example, Baba Buddha ji was well versed in rites and rituals and whenever a Guru was granted Gurgaddi he would be called upon to perform the ritual. He fulfills the role of a Pandit.
Another painting showing the same thing:
http://sikhgurusandgurdwaras.info/w...applying-Gurgaddi-Tilak-to-Guru-Arjan-Dev.jpg
Once again, only educated scholars would be familiar with literature like Puran. Most people back then were not educated nor were required to be. Gurus were not as well versed in literature as the pandits were. They even say this in Guru Granth Sahib. Something akin to "Pandits study and debate texts. I only know Hari..." Gurus are masters in spirituality not philosophical texts. So I have no doubt in my mind that they listened to those who were adept in Puranas. Their message for the masses was to draw upon practical spiritual teachings from them.
Reading out the Puran, would be educational for those who listen. Many of Guru Sahibs followers were lower caste and illiterate so this would be puratan learning centres. And we know Guru Amardas ji built many of these. Much later we find Guru Gobind Singh ji translating the Puranas into the native language.
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BhagatSingh
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Gyani ji and Prakash ji,
Question.
Why is there a Sri in front of Akal if Akal is an adjective? As in the greeting Sat Sri Akal.
Question.
Why is there a Sri in front of Akal if Akal is an adjective? As in the greeting Sat Sri Akal.
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If one understands the grammar of the word Sri,it can be noted that it is NOUN as well as Adjective.
The word Sri is used as prefix or suffix
I find that thephrase"SAT SRI AKAL " is very unique combinations of NOUN and Adjective words.
An important point is that the word SRI is basically a feminine Gender word.
I think the words SRI and Akal are Adjectives for SAT as NOUN.
Prakash.S.Bagga
I go with Parkash ji on the Sri and Akal..imho these are adjectives for the Proper Noun Sat.
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BhagatSingh
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Sri as an adjective is always written before the noun as in ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਏ ਨਮਹ ॥੧॥.
So in Sat Sri Akal one would think Sri is written before the noun Akal. But Akal isn't a noun, it is an adjective.
Sat is a noun. So it could have easily been Sri Sat Akal. But Sat is not a person. It's a thing. Satchitananda is never referred to as Sri Satchitananda, unless it's a person's name. "Sat could be a person." In Guru Granth Sahib, Sri never comes after a name, always comes before, as seen in above example.
EDIT: To sum up, Sri is always written before a name of a person but neither Sat or Akal are names.
So in Sat Sri Akal one would think Sri is written before the noun Akal. But Akal isn't a noun, it is an adjective.
Sat is a noun. So it could have easily been Sri Sat Akal. But Sat is not a person. It's a thing. Satchitananda is never referred to as Sri Satchitananda, unless it's a person's name. "Sat could be a person." In Guru Granth Sahib, Sri never comes after a name, always comes before, as seen in above example.
EDIT: To sum up, Sri is always written before a name of a person but neither Sat or Akal are names.
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and remember Sat Sri Akal is NOT GURBANI....its common literature..now a days majority know it as SASSSREE akal more than the Sat Sri Akal..!!! or just SSA !!
BhagatSingh
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I think it comes form Guru Gobind Singh ji's times. So it's not going to be in Guru Granth Sahib.
But I still want to know what it means. Currently, I have an idea in my head of what it actually means but I thought you guys might have another explanation.
But I still want to know what it means. Currently, I have an idea in my head of what it actually means but I thought you guys might have another explanation.
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