Punjab Now A Land Of Bihari 'sardars'

[Sinister]

jatts are the very people who are responsible for the mass migration of farm workers into punjab. if they would work their own land rather than hiring landless biharis to do it for them, you would not have so many immigrants in the first place.

just my outsiders opinion.

Kelly…In my opinion as an outsider…we should keep our arguments less conclusive and assertive.

Its easy to pick on the farming communities…but what about when you go to the supermarket and pick up an apple or an orange that was most likely picked and packaged by a foreign laborer?
You the consumer is to blame not the farmer who is simply doing cost cutting so that he may stay alive in an extremely cutthroat business. The farmer is participating in the natural process of division of labour.
Farmers that do not use seasonal labour are non-competitive thanks to all of YOU and me… the consumers!
And anybody who has actually seen the workings of a farm will know that it is impossible for a farmer with 30 odd acres to afford and maintain the machinery that a 1000 acre farm has, and its impossible for that 30 acre farmer to farm and perform a harvest by himself.
So he is dependant on seasonal laborers for help.
The only thing that stops migrants, in a situation where there are no national borders, is economic downturn. Migrants will always flock to resource rich environments.

The labour shortage is generated by this continuous obsession with increasing productivity, growth and profit. When the economic growth outstrips the indigenous growth of a region the capitalist system still wishes to expand and not stagnate its growth because of a mere barrier in lack of labour availability. The price of labour increases and this acts as a magnet for migrants.

So if anything we should lay the responsibility of the situation strictly on the economic capitalist culture, which has a natural drive towards diffusion of people across ethnic and religious backgrounds in resource rich environments.

The farmers are not responsible for the migration of seasonal laborers … capitalism is.
And the sooner we stop pointing fingers we can understand and learn to accept these inevitable trends.

Cheers.

 

[Archived_Member1]

Kelly…In my opinion as an outsider…we should keep our arguments less conclusive and assertive.

Its easy to pick on the farming communities…but what about when you go to the supermarket and pick up an apple or an orange that was most likely picked and packaged by a foreign laborer?
You the consumer is to blame not the farmer who is simply doing cost cutting so that he may stay alive in an extremely cutthroat business. The farmer is participating in the natural process of division of labour.
Farmers that do not use seasonal labour are non-competitive thanks to all of YOU and me… the consumers!
And anybody who has actually seen the workings of a farm will know that it is impossible for a farmer with 30 odd acres to afford and maintain the machinery that a 1000 acre farm has, and its impossible for that 30 acre farmer to farm and perform a harvest by himself.
So he is dependant on seasonal laborers for help.
The only thing that stops migrants, in a situation where there are no national borders, is economic downturn. Migrants will always flock to resource rich environments.

The labour shortage is generated by this continuous obsession with increasing productivity, growth and profit. When the economic growth outstrips the indigenous growth of a region the capitalist system still wishes to expand and not stagnate its growth because of a mere barrier in lack of labour availability. The price of labour increases and this acts as a magnet for migrants.

So if anything we should lay the responsibility of the situation strictly on the economic capitalist culture, which has a natural drive towards diffusion of people across ethnic and religious backgrounds in resource rich environments.

The farmers are not responsible for the migration of seasonal laborers … capitalism is.
And the sooner we stop pointing fingers we can understand and learn to accept these inevitable trends.

Cheers.

woah, way to totally misinterperate my post! i wasn't "blaming" anyone for anything, dear. personally, i think immigrant labor is GOOD for the economy, ok?

thanks!

 

[Sinister]

Why hello again,

i wasn't "blaming" anyone for anything, dear.
thanks!

Well i must deluded? Im pretty sure i saw some false assertions...let me refresh your memories.

jatts are the very people who are responsible for the mass migration of farm workers into punjab. if they would work their own land rather than hiring landless biharis to do it for them, you would not have so many immigrants in the first place.

very= denoting exclusivity
responsible= denoting blame

i dont care if your anti/pro immigration... that wasnt the purpose of my post.

personally, i think immigrant labor is GOOD for the economy, ok?

thanks!

my aren't we testy today?

cheers.

 

[Archived_Member1]

take the time to read the post i was responding to, throw in the smiley at the end, and attempt your logic again.

sorry if i was "testy", i don't always respond well to rude accusations. i am working on that.

 

[Randip Singh]

I already said that from the point of view sikhism its very good but do you think that jatts
and other ethinic communities that are ruling punjab want's to loose their domination over punjab.

Jatts will never ever admit it but they too were at the level of the Bihari workers at one time. Everyone starts somewhere and works their way up. History is a testiment to that. Other groups like Labana, Tarkhan, Kamboj, Khatri were all in the same boat.

I know of Jatt guys that work for these so called "Bhaiyas" now.

This is the way society works. Nothing remains the same.

 

[Randip Singh]

Despite similarity in everything jatts,khatri,ramgarhia ramdasia have differences. punjabi's still don't accept intercaste marriages.If you beleive that punjabi's will accept gladly bihari's then i too beleive that one day sun will rise from west.

HI KDS times change.

My own family history is that allegedly of Rajpoots from jaiselmer yet we have assimilated other tribe, Tarkhans, Jatts, Khatri etc. Today we have Jatt, Tarkhan, Khatri....and even cheer by marriage relatives. My ancestors would probably be crying all over their janeo's

Times change. The ruler becomes the worker and the worker the ruler and then times change again.

 

[dalsingh]

Kelly…In my opinion as an outsider…we should keep our arguments less conclusive and assertive.

Its easy to pick on the farming communities…but what about when you go to the supermarket and pick up an apple or an orange that was most likely picked and packaged by a foreign laborer?
You the consumer is to blame not the farmer who is simply doing cost cutting so that he may stay alive in an extremely cutthroat business. The farmer is participating in the natural process of division of labour.
Farmers that do not use seasonal labour are non-competitive thanks to all of YOU and me… the consumers!
And anybody who has actually seen the workings of a farm will know that it is impossible for a farmer with 30 odd acres to afford and maintain the machinery that a 1000 acre farm has, and its impossible for that 30 acre farmer to farm and perform a harvest by himself.
So he is dependant on seasonal laborers for help.
The only thing that stops migrants, in a situation where there are no national borders, is economic downturn. Migrants will always flock to resource rich environments.

The labour shortage is generated by this continuous obsession with increasing productivity, growth and profit. When the economic growth outstrips the indigenous growth of a region the capitalist system still wishes to expand and not stagnate its growth because of a mere barrier in lack of labour availability. The price of labour increases and this acts as a magnet for migrants.

So if anything we should lay the responsibility of the situation strictly on the economic capitalist culture, which has a natural drive towards diffusion of people across ethnic and religious backgrounds in resource rich environments.

The farmers are not responsible for the migration of seasonal laborers … capitalism is.
And the sooner we stop pointing fingers we can understand and learn to accept these inevitable trends.

Cheers.

This is serious bull. Don't blame capitalism. Jatt society has had a long standing love of wealth and gain long before the term capitalism was ever coined!

Farmers could always choose to be subsistent farmers and live healthy lives if they wanted. Plenty do in other places. But NO, Punjabi society places an unhealthy importance on wealth and status. Jatts are possibly one of worse at following this mentality.

Stop defending the undefendable. Even my own Jatt family friends openly bemoan the fact that the youth in Punjab have become out of shape through laziness. Given that SO MANY Sikhs migrate outwards for financial purposes, I don't think we are in any position to complain about Biharis doing the same.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

why not convert them to Sikhi thru love and tolerance....that will make sikh population increase fast..migration will not go away...just as sikh youths will not stop going to Canada/usa/uk thru illegal means even ( paying huge sums to unscrupulous agnets and human traffickers)..these people will keep on coming to the land of opportunity - Punjab..our best bet is to assimilate them and increas our numbers

Gyani jarnail Singh

 

[kds1980]

Jatts will never ever admit it but they too were at the level of the Bihari workers at one time. Everyone starts somewhere and works their way up. History is a testiment to that. Other groups like Labana, Tarkhan, Kamboj, Khatri were all in the same boat.

I know of Jatt guys that work for these so called "Bhaiyas" now.

This is the way society works. Nothing remains the same.

Majority of communities forgot their history.Personaly i found it hilarious when indian indian clan's boast about their acheivements.Reality is all indian clans were great losers first they were unable to defend themselves against muslims and then britishers

also we all know about islamic brotherhood but still that brotherhood was not enough to unite pakistan and bangladesh.It was too difficuilt for 6 footer punjabi's to salute
5 footer bengali.Do you really think that punjabi sikhs will accept bihari's

 

[kds1980]

HI KDS times change.

My own family history is that allegedly of Rajpoots from jaiselmer yet we have assimilated other tribe, Tarkhans, Jatts, Khatri etc. Today we have Jatt, Tarkhan, Khatri....and even cheer by marriage relatives. My ancestors would probably be crying all over their janeo's

Times change. The ruler becomes the worker and the worker the ruler and then times change again.

Its good that your family is mixed but news of conflict between upper and lower caste sikhs from punjabi is becoming more frequent

 

[dalsingh]

Majority of communities forgot their history.Personaly i found it hilarious when indian indian clan's boast about their acheivements.Reality is all indian clans were great losers first they were unable to defend themselves against muslims and then britishers

also we all know about islamic brotherhood but still that brotherhood was not enough to unite pakistan and bangladesh.It was too difficuilt for 6 footer punjabi's to salute
5 footer bengali.Do you really think that punjabi sikhs will accept bihari's

Yes. I believe because they may well be forced to intermarry due to female foeticide. Plus ask your grandparents, intercaste marriages happened between "upper" and "lower" castes before. Poor Jatts used to take women from "churha" "chamar" "caste" because no one would marry them. My mum told me in our pind a large percentage of Jatts did this. So it wouldn't be anything new.

 

[Sinister]

This is serious bull.

Then please enlighten me with your profound knowledge dalsingh.
How do you explain the recent migration of seasonal workers into Punjab?
Or even the flocking of Punjabi’s overseas? (if not through an economic model)

Don't blame capitalism. Jatt society has had a long standing love of wealth and gain long before the term capitalism was ever coined!

“The long standing love of wealth”…is it not synonymous with capitalism (the long standing love of capital gain?). there are two ways of saying tomato.

Well considering you think everything I wrote is “bull” you would not agree to:
economic capitalist culture, which has a natural drive towards diffusion of people across ethnic and religious backgrounds in resource rich environments.

?????? is this theory “bull”??????

Farmers could always choose to be subsistent farmers and live healthy lives if they wanted. Plenty do in other places. But NO, Punjabi society places an unhealthy importance on wealth and status.

Subsistent farming? LOL
Yes the jatts should return to the pre-industrial form of agriculture. I love the practicality of your ideas. You know what they should go back to subsistent farming…so that the rest of India can starve!

And I bet you haven’t a clue about farming and the agricultural industry…because that’s the only way one would suggest such erroneous solutions.
Hint: I own a farm

Jatts are possibly one of worse at following this mentality.

I wouldn’t make that assertion because I’ve seen some pretty greedy people in my lifetime and but I’ve never pointed a finger at an entire group…that’s bigotry.

Stop defending the undefendable.

make me.

And im not trying to defend im trying to understand…which is something we should all do more often before we go off making ignorant assertions about the laziness of an entire ethnic group.

Even my own Jatt family friends openly bemoan the fact that the youth in Punjab have become out of shape through laziness. Given that SO MANY Sikhs migrate outwards for financial purposes, I don't think we are in any position to complain about Biharis doing the same.

Laziness? Its called the division of labor.

The Farmer is the one with the education in botany and economics.

He knows what variety of seed to use for a particular environment
The fertilizers
The methods
The plant viruses
The pests
But most importantly he is the owner of the means of production (why should he work?)
….let me water it down for you…does the management of a company come down to work on the manufacturing floor?

Its capitalism that is making us a global species and this point is not “bull” but fact. Punjab is just another standard textbook scenario…whether you accept it or not is something I’m not even remotely interested in.
If you can refute what I am saying then you’ve got my undivided attention.

 

[S|kH]

This is serious bull. Don't blame capitalism. Jatt society has had a long standing love of wealth and gain long before the term capitalism was ever coined!

Farmers could always choose to be subsistent farmers and live healthy lives if they wanted. Plenty do in other places. But NO, Punjabi society places an unhealthy importance on wealth and status. Jatts are possibly one of worse at following this mentality.

Stop defending the undefendable. Even my own Jatt family friends openly bemoan the fact that the youth in Punjab have become out of shape through laziness. Given that SO MANY Sikhs migrate outwards for financial purposes, I don't think we are in any position to complain about Biharis doing the same.

lol, "love of wealth and gain" = Capitalism.

I also love how you act like only the farmers or "jatts" have fallen victim to capitalism, and all other races/cultures/castes/regions have not? The entire world has or will be.

Most of the issue I see here is that you guys act like Sikhs are the only community going thru a particular crisis. This happens throughout the world and throughout history, we're no different.

Let them come. Let them work. The quality of one human life is the same regardless if the blood inside is Jatt, Rajput, Khalsa or Bihari.

Sikhs lose power and jobs? Good, that's the way a democracy should work.

Sinister, Your post is really the only one worth reading in this thread. Except, I suggest you realize the age / knowledge of your audience before claiming an economic model has most of the answers. Human migration is best defined through an economic model, but I'm sure most of this forum tends to think God drives man.

 

[dalsingh]

How do you explain the recent migration of seasonal workers into Punjab?
Or even the flocking of Punjabi’s overseas? (if not through an economic model)

I'll tell you straight up. I had a close family friend (Jatt landlord with financially supportive relatives in the UK and Canada) who visited me a year ago and he was bewailing the fact that he COULDN'T find seasonal workers to harvest his land. The reason, he continued, was that these workers were now going to the towns to work in factories or other industries and were getting better paid jobs and better security through long term job prospects there.

Economic migration is nothing new or "recent" to Punjab. My own family owned timber saw mills and I remember bhaiyas working there about 25 years ago. These people would work and then return to their families. So how is this anything new? They were probably treated better at our place then by your average arrogant peasant.

I would explain Punjabis overseas as a phenomena mainly based on financial desires and also what seems like an inherent trait of outward exploration in the community. Exactly what made Sikhs (especially Jatts) prance around the globe as soldiers under the British i.e. desire for money + adventure.

“The long standing love of wealth”…is it not synonymous with capitalism (the long standing love of capital gain?). there are two ways of saying tomato.

Well considering you think everything I wrote is “bull” you would not agree to:
economic capitalist culture, which has a natural drive towards diffusion of people across ethnic and religious backgrounds in resource rich environments. ?????? is this theory “bull”??????

Like people weren't migrating for economic gain before the Industrial revolution!! Indeed the oft quoted history of Jatts (Sakas) claims they themselves came from elsewhere and settled in Punjab to exploit the fertile land i.e. better opportunity. Moors pushed into Europe and formed kingdoms up Spain and Italy. Europeans did it in America/Canada/Austrialia/New Zealand amongst places. So no I disagree, it isn't just capitalism that makes people congregate in resource/opportunity rich environments but their own ambitions/aspirations.

Subsistent farming? LOL
Yes the jatts should return to the pre-industrial form of agriculture. I love the practicality of your ideas. You know what they should go back to subsistent farming…so that the rest of India can starve!

Yes, sure. Jatts farm for the love of India and its potentially starving population - who are you kidding dude!!!! A strong feature of Jatt culture is economic dominance of other clans in Punjab. Have you seen how substandard MOST Jatts treat so called "lower castes" Pull the other one dude...it has bells on it.

And I bet you haven’t a clue about farming and the agricultural industry…because that’s the only way one would suggest such erroneous solutions.
Hint: I own a farm

So does my family and even they have become lazy from renting land out back home. And what?

I wouldn’t make that assertion because I’ve seen some pretty greedy people in my lifetime and but I’ve never pointed a finger at an entire group…that’s bigotry. And im not trying to defend im trying to understand…which is something we should all do more often before we go off making ignorant assertions about the laziness of an entire ethnic group.

Dude if you don't wake up to the difficult too swallow fact that Jatts are majorly losing the plot the problems will only increase.

Laziness? Its called the division of labor.

The Farmer is the one with the education in botany and economics.

He knows what variety of seed to use for a particular environment
The fertilizers
The methods
The plant viruses
The pests
But most importantly he is the owner of the means of production (why should he work?)
….let me water it down for you…does the management of a company come down to work on the manufacturing floor?

Spoken like a true Jatt ....

"Why should I work......"

"Let me use these lesser breeds to do my labour"

"Bullcrap Sardari"


What do you want to do....use bhaiyas and throw them out of Punjab when your finished with them.......really compassionate


Plus are you unaware of the growing problem of land poisoning through excessive use of pesticides....pindus can't read/follow the instructions and are ruining the dharti as a result it seems. Real expertise.

The day I see Jatts give a monkeys about other people besides their own and stop trying to corrupt/dominate every damn thing in Punjab/Sikhism I may give a hoot.

Forget now. Use your brain and try and think what problems Jatts will have if global warming gets worse and large sections of land may become unworkable.

 

[Sinister]

Its capitalism that is making us a global species and this point is not “bull” but fact. Punjab is just another standard textbook scenario…whether you accept it or not is something I’m not even remotely interested in.
If you can refute what I am saying then you’ve got my undivided attention.


way to go! .... you completely missed my points

which was expected and well anticipated ....

In my book the "id" always intervenes when the "ego" is broken

 

[dalsingh]

Its capitalism that is making us a global species and this point is not “bull” but fact. Punjab is just another standard textbook scenario…whether you accept it or not is something I’m not even remotely interested in.
If you can refute what I am saying then you’ve got my undivided attention.


way to go! .... you completely missed my points

which was expected and well anticipated ....

In my book the "id" always intervenes when the "ego" is broken

You carry on basing your opinions on Freudian principles then. Despite most of his theories being discredited.

Face facts. No group should be exploiting others...that much of Sikhi even I've figured out. We have CHOICES......if people are taking the path of greed then ultimately it is a decision they have made themselves. Blaming corruption of character on ideologies like capitalism without reference to internal motivation is about as lame as it gets.

 

[Sinister]

You carry on basing your opinions on Freudian principles then. Despite most of his theories being discredited.

Face facts. No group should be exploiting others...that much of Sikhi even I've figured out. We have CHOICES......if people are taking the path of greed then ultimately it is a decision they have made themselves. Blaming corruption of character on ideologies like capitalism without reference to internal motivation is about as lame as it gets.

this theory of symbolic interactionism coming from a bigot!
now ive seen everything

just a few posts ago you were generalizing jatts into the greediest of the greedy's

now you turned tone and said "to each his own"

well at least i leave with the satisfaction of knowing that bigotry can be defeated.
and your posts are living proof

 

[Sinister]

to entail that the jatt is not working is incorrect

he or she is the management that organizes the laborers

the same way it is anywhere
the laborers are not serfs they are free men who exchange labour on the market as a commodity

 

[dalsingh]

this theory of symbolic interactionism coming from a bigot!
now ive seen everything

just a few posts ago you were generalizing jatts into the greediest of the greedy's

now you turned tone and said "to each his own"

well at least i leave with the satisfaction of knowing that bigotry can be defeated.
and your posts are living proof

You want to tackle bigotry. Try looking a bit closer to home to the bigotry inherent within your own culture. One that brings back Bahman casteism to Punjab with a vengeance. What other force promotes and upholds a hierarchical caste society so strongly in Punjab other than Jattism?

I think your misreading the post. Where have I said "each to his own"?

You are the one suggesting we are all helpless in the face of capitalism and using that as some excuse/justification for greedy behaviour. I'm suggesting that we have choices on individual levels on whether to buy into that and are not entirely helpless. Has Sikhism becomes so powerless that it offers no protection against capitalism?

I suggest you revisit the old sakhi about Guru Nanak and Malik Bhago for some guidance. What do you think it is trying to get at?

 

[Randip Singh]

Guys Guys.

Any more Jatt bashing and Iwill recommend this thread is locked.

Can a mod please monitor as I maybe considered favouring Jatts.