Question For Kala Afghana Supporters

[carolineislands]

Thank you. I found some articles on Dasam Granth. I just wanted to hear both sides of the issue.

 

[Inder singh]

Carolineislands

Sikhs have two aspects of their religion/Guru Granth and Guru Panth.Message of Guru Granth is spiritual or message to mind and universal in nature.Then sikhs have Guru panth in the shape of Panj piaras.That governs the organizational aspect of sikhs.

The rehat was dictated by Guru gobind singh when khalas was initiated such as what kakars to keep when baptized,what banis to read in nitnem,whta things to abstain in life etc etc.Then we had rehat namas written by many Hazuri sikhs of tenth master.Thirdly we have oral history or traditions
that trasfer from generation to generation.

Sikh rehat maryada was written over a period of 20 years discussion by eminent sikhs who were well versed in sikh ethos.They referreed to all material from guru ji's time to arrive at their decisions.

 

[BhagatSingh]

BhagatSikh ji,

My name is Bhagat Singh

I too, would like to hear your reasoning for your beliefs. I tried to find the thread in which you explained this but didn't see it. Perhaps you could explain more about it here for those of us who weren't around when it was discussed before.

the article
http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/pdf/article/DASAM%20GRANTH%20-%20ITS%20HISTORY.PDF
and the topic on sikhphilosophy.net
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/19294-dasam-granth-and-its-history.html
Sorry the post was called Dasam Granth and it's history, but the other topic exists as well.

If you don't believe Dasam Granth was written by Guru Gobind Singh ji, then do you follow rehat maryada?

No.

What about the Khalsa?

that has nothing to do with Dasam Granth.

Where do you stand on that and amrit?

These are completely my views:
I think, Amrit was something to attract a crowd. It's simply sweetened water, nothing special. I believe, its the life one lives, that makes one a khalsa, not drinking of sweetened water.
I believe, Guru Gobind Singh ji did this "ritual" (yes I said ritual) to attract large numbers of people because something visual would have more appeal than simply stating something(I can expand on this if u want). It should be treated nothing more than an old tradition.

How many Sikhs are out there that believe as you do?

I have no clue but I know kala Afghana would agree with me one this one. :whisling:
I believed such things, before I knew of kala afghana so don't say i am following his cult or sumtin.

This is interesting to me because I picked up on quite a few things that seem like contradictions in some of the philosophies concerning these issues from the very beginning of my experience on this forum.

I feel the same way.

And, although I've read more about the political conflicts and oppression of Sikhs in Punjab, especially conflicts with Hindutsva, I have more understanding of the necessity of some of the 'policies' of Sikhism, i.e., the rehat maryada and central government of the religion. But I still am a little disturbed by some things that continue to appear to me as contradictions.

Same here.

I readily admit that I am NOT knowledgable about Sikhi and so I don't really want anyone to get offended or emotional about this. I am asking in order to learn. I have heard a couple points of view that support the current structure of the organized religion of Sikhism. I would like to hear the view points of others as well. For instance, I don't quite understand why some Sikhs get so passionately offended at the idea that the current "mainstream" practices have rituals built in when it is so obviously so. I am currently reading the rehat maryada and the rituals are clearly outlined right up on the page... just how to carry the SGGS, how to walk around this way, how to enter, who can sing and who can't and exactly what they can and can't sing, which knee to have up and which to have down etc etc... Now, I am not criticizing this.

No, critisize it! See how people respond to you. Those are blind rituals with no meaning. At this point someone is gona get up and be like isnt keeping hair and combing hair a ritual as well. NO, keeping long hair and combing twice a day is not a BLIND ritual. It has logical reasoning behind it.

There is nothing wrong with having this kind of structure if that's what the religion believes in and feels they need. My question is why is it such a cardinal sin to call it what it is? And my other question is if I am the only one who wonders why it doesn't seem to disturb anybody that those are the kinds of things that Guru Nanak spoke against.

Yes it distubrs me very much to see these things happening. That's why I am not attracted to gurudwaras anymore. I used to love to go there. I can't help speaking out, and I can't keep my mouth shut, so I just don't go.

Who says what is and isn't gurbani?

Define gurbani.

Who says what is and isn't Guru Gobind Singh's writing?

Alot of people.

And why is it such a horrible thing to ask these questions?

It's not. One should always question their beliefs, so they always remain open minded. Otherwise it becomes blind faith, which Guru Nanak preached against.

When was rehat maryada written?

After the Gurus died.

What is the date?

Not sure, maybe someone else can help u there.

Who made the decisions? What did they base those decisions on?

confused here.

When I ask these questions I mainly get the history of oppression of Sikhs by Hindus and have heard that people who question this current structure are mainly undercover Hindu saboteurs out to deconstruct Sikhism from within (or without as the case may be).

But I just can't believe that wanting to know when rehat maryada was written, by whom, and by whose authority should be a taboo question. I also don't think it should be taboo to say that it seems to conflict with the message of Sikhi.

Seems to? I believe it does!

Politics aside - I just would like to have my questions answered. I am not trying to align myself with Hindutsva -- I just want to know if rehat maryada was something that came from the guru's writings or if it is something that was made up later by a group of officials and if so, by what authority did they make the rules up?

It was made up later, like the Bible, both have absurdities.

Is there any other authority in other groups or is this the only one? Is it the authority because it holds the majority of followers or does it have another base for authority? Obviously there are Sikhs who don't subscribe to all of it's edicts. What is the basis for their beliefs?

I can't answer that.

Thanks!

No problem

 

[BhagatSingh]

Carolineislands

Sikhs have two aspects of their religion/Guru Granth and Guru Panth.Message of Guru Granth is spiritual or message to mind and universal in nature.Then sikhs have Guru panth in the shape of Panj piaras.That governs the organizational aspect of sikhs.

The rehat was dictated by Guru gobind singh when khalas was initiated such as what kakars to keep when baptized,what banis to read in nitnem,whta things to abstain in life etc etc.Then we had rehat namas written by many Hazuri sikhs of tenth master.Thirdly we have oral history or traditions
that trasfer from generation to generation.

Sikh rehat maryada was written over a period of 20 years discussion by eminent sikhs who were well versed in sikh ethos.They referreed to all material from guru ji's time to arrive at their decisions.

Does the rehit maryada not tell us to not trust turks and not to befriend them?
Where in SGGS does it say that?
that sounds like the Quran to me, "do not trust or befriend the non-believers."

 

[BhagatSingh]

I doubt if bHagat singh knows anything about Dasam Granth.had he known it he won't be searching for some vague thread.

I was searching for some vague thread??
Okkk there.:{-

 

[Inder singh]

Bhagat singh

Rehat maryada does not say what you are saying here.It sounds you have no knowledge of rehat maryada.It does not say that do not befriend turks.

Globalsikhstuides is a store house of misinfornation about Dasam Granth.MMost of siksh know that.Its owner does not know anything about Dasam Granth.He ws involved in discussions and he withdrew whne caught on wrong foot.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Bhagat singh

Rehat maryada does not say what you are saying here.It sounds you have no knowledge of rehat maryada.It does not say that do not befriend turks.

Globalsikhstuides is a store house of misinfornation about Dasam Granth.MMost of siksh know that.Its owner does not know anything about Dasam Granth.He ws involved in discussions and he withdrew whne caught on wrong foot.

Oh yeah?
Read this:
Attitude Towards Muslims An initiated Khalsa who bows to a Turk is a despicable creature. He who associates with anyone who mixes with Turks goes to hell. Do not trust Turks. Do not make friends with a Muslim. End the authority of the Turks. A Turk is an enemy and should be slain with the sword. Do not consume halal meat. Pay no heed to a [Muslim] pir. Those who worship Muhammad will go to a horrible hell. Anyone who eats food prepared for a Muslim festival, who offer sweets to a Muslim holy man, or who brews intoxicating liquor goes to hell. Do not trust the illegitimate offspring of a Muslim. Do not desire to learn Persian. Anyone who reads Persian is a tanakhahia and not my Sikh. Do not drink water from his hand and do not trust him. [12, 29, 35, 42, 44, 57, 59, 77, 79, 83, 84, 87, 90, 91, 92]

A Gateway to Sikhism | Daya Singh Rahit-nama - A Gateway to Sikhism
Anyone who reads persian is a tanakhahia, and not my sikh , haha :}{}{}:, good one!




Ok so assuming global Sikh studies is not a good source, tell me can u understand punjabi?

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

A lot of stuff in ALL the "Rehitnamahs" is BLATANTLY ANTI-MUSLIM and by default PRO-HINDU(Brahmin). This is a FACT.

2. The so called 40th VAAR spuriously and surreptioulsy ATTACHED to the Original 39 vaars of Bhai Gurdass Ji of Guru Arjun Jis time is blatantly anti-mulsim, anti islam and pro hindu. It gives such FALSE information that Guur Gobind Singh Jis Khalsa Attacked and DESTROYED MOSQUES, Forcibly STOPPED SUNNAT - (circumcision of muslims) Stopped the Muslim Prayers. Only a HINDU BIGOT could imagine such bizarre hallucinations about the Khalsa vis a vis the Islamic peoples. Guru jis is UNIVERSAL..He is for entire Humanity..Not for any ONE special Race or religion. Guru had THOUSANDS of MUSLIM friends, followers, murshds, and even MARTYRS who died for HIM and fought AGAINST the Muslims who were wrong/tyrants. While the Brahmin Ganggu decieved and betrayed the innocent children of Guru Ji. and the Diwan Sucha Nand DEMANDED DEATH for them.....the Muslim Nawab of Malerkotla defended them as Unislmic to kill defencelss children of the enemy !!
This VAAR was so cleverly attached to the Original Bhai gurdass Ji Vaars that inspite of being patently OUT of Place and blatantly RACIST and agianst SIKHI/GURMATT of Bhai Ghnaiyah etc etc Sikhs were FOOLED by a few lines intermixed in it..such as Waho Waho gobind Singh aapeh Gur Chela..etc etc while 90% of it is anti-Gurmatt.
Same goes for Bachittar natak granth later changed to dsm granth. 99% of this is not as per Gurmatt of Guru Sahib.
Can somebody shed light on who wrote this VAAR and when was it attached to the Original Bhai gurdass Varaan ?? Why is it not in a SEPARATE "book" when its clear that it is NOT written by Bhai Gurdass Ji ?? Why conceal this fact ??

Gyani jarnail Singh

 

[Inder singh]

RTehatnama mentioned by Bhagat singh is not Sikh rehat maryada.Go to SGPC site to know rehat maryada.Please do not mislead people here if you do not about rehat maryada.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Here is another tactic very commonly used in dsm granth.... the "Authors" change at random...and we are asked to beleive that it is actually the same author..even if he uses the names shyam raam kavi..its still Guur Gobind Singh ji...In the follwoing lines the MISR..the Brahmin suddenly and unexplicably becomes the "SIKHS"..... out of NO where ??? the entire episode is about the Misr the Brahimin the Khatri etc etc and we are told its about SIKHS... This So called Shabad by Guru Gobind Singh ji is sung all the time by Kirtaniyas....

Do observe the context of the famous, "in he kee kirpa kae sajae hum hain..."
What do you think?


CHAPTER 10

ੴ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹ ॥
ੴ स्री वाहिगुरू जी की फतह ॥
The Lord is One and the Victory is of the Lord.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮੁਖਵਾਕ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹੀ ੧੦॥
स्री मुखवाक पातिशाही १०॥
The ultterance from the holy mouth of the Tenth King :

ਸ੍ਵੈਯਾ ॥
स्वैया ॥
SWAYYA

ਜੋ ਕਛੁ ਲੇਖ ਲਿਖਿਓ ਬਿਧਨਾ ਸੋਈ ਪਾਈਯਤ ਮਿਸਰ ਜੂ ਸ਼ੋਕ ਨਿਵਾਰੋ ॥ਮੇਰੋ ਕਛੂ ਅਪਰਾਧ ਨਹੀ ਗਯੋ ਯਾਦ ਤੇ ਭੂਲ ਨਹ ਕੋਪੁ ਚਿਤਾਰੋ ॥
जो कछु लेख लिखिओ बिधना सोई पाईयत मिसर जू शोक निवारो ॥मेरो कछू अपराध नही गयो याद ते भूल नह कोपु चितारो ॥
O friend ! whatever the providence has recorded, it will surely happen, therefore, forsake your sorrow; there is no fault of mine in this; I had only forgotten (to serve you earlier); do not get enraged on my error;

*** This is has been translated as "O friend" when the text is addressing "Misr ju" for he had forgotten "to serve you earlier"? The author i .e patshahi dus on top . is aplogising for his mistake in forgetting to serve misrjii .i.e brahmin? It is not my fault, forgetful memory is the reason of this lapse..do not get annotyed i.e speak(chitaro) in outrage(kop/krop)..please give up your shok/sorrow


ਬਾਗੋ ਨਿਹਾਲੀ ਪਠੈ ਦੈਹੋ ਆਜੁ ਭਲੇ ਤੁਮ ਕੋ ਨਿਸਚੈ ਜੀਅ ਧਾਰੋ ॥ ਛੱਤ੍ਰੀ ਸਭੈ ਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਿੱਪਨ ਕੇ ਇਨਹੂੰ ਪੈ ਕਟਾਛ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕੈ ਨਿਹਾਰੋ ॥੧॥
बागो निहाली पठै दैहो आजु भले तुम को निसचै जीअ धारो ॥ छ्त्री सभै क्रित बि्पन के इनहूं पै कटाछ क्रिपा कै निहारो ॥१॥
I shall surely cause to send the quilt, bed etc. as religious gift; do not be anxious about that, the Kshatriyas had been performing the jobs for the Brahmins; now be kind to them, looking towards them.1.

*** Not only aplogising but also sending gifts for appeasment purposes? Why,... because the kshatriyas "chattri sabahe krit bipran ke"...katascth i.e. eyes..please lay benevolent eyes upon them(your "krit" creation)..

The Guru-sahiban did not need to do this for they had given up brahmin guru - who are those who did not? Ist choice: mina gurus-establishments who remained kshatriya need to appease the brahmin. for having forgotten to serve them 'earlier' ..when?.


Then the author goes on to say...

ਜੁੱਧ ਜਿਤੇ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਸੁ ਦਾਨ ਕਰੇ ॥ ਅਘ ਅਉਘ ਟਰੈ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਫੁਨ ਧਾਮ ਭਰੇ ॥
जु्ध जिते इन ही के प्रसादि इन ही के प्रसादि सु दान करे ॥ अघ अउघ टरै इन ही के प्रसादि इन ही क्रिपा फुन धाम भरे ॥
By the kindness of these Skihs, I have conquered the wars and also by their kindness, I have bestowed charities; by their kindness the clusters on sins have been destroyed and by their kindness my house is full of wealth and materials;

*** here the reference has been changed to 'sikhs'..when it is the brahmin that is being asked forgiveness from, with declaration that kshatriya was krit/manufactured/born to serve the misr ji, the though continues
Where do sikhs fit into this stuff here?. Yet we are sining away shkaing our heads, pretending it is an ode to sikhs.. .

ਇਨ ਹੀ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਸੁ ਬਿੱਦਿਆ ਲਈ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਸਭ ਸ਼ੱਤ੍ਰੁ ਮਰੇ ॥ਇਨ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕੇ ਸਜੇ ਹਮ ਹੈਂ ਨਹੀ ਮੋਸੋ ਗਰੀਬ ਕਰੋਰ ਪਰੇ ॥੨॥
इन ही के प्रसादि सु बि्दिआ लई इन ही की क्रिपा सभ श्त्रु मरे ॥इन ही की क्रिपा के सजे हम हैं नही मोसो गरीब करोर परे ॥२॥
By their kindness I have received education and by their kindness all my enemies have been destroyed; by their kindness I have been greatly adorned, otherwise there kindness I have been greatly adorned, otherwise there are crores of humble person like me.2.

**** The samrty alecks will tell you enemies are the passions...here the referecne is to the enemies that the bipar-creator helped vanquish. Who would those be??


ਸੇਵ ਕਰੀ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਭਾਵਤ ਅਉਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵ ਸੁਹਾਤ ਨ ਜੀਕੋ ॥ ਦਾਨ ਦਯੋ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਕੋ ਭਲੋ ਅਰੁ ਆਨ ਕੋ ਦਾਨ ਨ ਲਾਗਤ ਨੀਕੋ ॥
सेव करी इन ही की भावत अउर की सेव सुहात न जीको ॥ दान दयो इन ही को भलो अरु आन को दान न लागत नीको ॥
I like to serve them and my mind is not pleased to serve others; the charities bestowed on them are really good and the charities given to others do not appear to be nice;


ਆਗੈ ਫਲੈ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਕੋ ਦਯੋ ਜਗ ਮੈ ਜਸੁ ਅਉਰ ਦਯੋ ਸਭ ਫੀਕੋ ॥ ਮੋ ਗ੍ਰਹਿ ਮੈ ਮਨ ਤੇ ਤਨ ਤੇ ਸਿਰ ਲਉ ਧਨ ਹੈ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਕੋ ॥੩॥
आगै फलै इन ही को दयो जग मै जसु अउर दयो सभ फीको ॥ मो ग्रहि मै मन ते तन ते सिर लउ धन है सभ ही इन ही को ॥३॥
The charities bestowed on them will bear fruit in future and the charities given to others in the world are unsavoury in front of donation given to them; in my house, my mind, my body, my wealth and even my head everything belongs to them.3.

*** looks like this charity is the reason we stand arguing about this granth!

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥
दोहरा ॥
DOHRA

ਚਟਪਟਾਇ ਚਿਤ ਮੈ ਜਰਯੋ ਤ੍ਰਿਣ ਜਯੋਂ ਕ੍ਰੁੱਧਤ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਖੋਜ ਰੋਜ ਕੇ ਹੇਤ ਲਗ ਦਯੋ ਮਿਸਰ ਜੂ ਰੋਇ ॥੪॥
चटपटाइ चित मै जरयो त्रिण जयों क्रु्धत होइ ॥ खोज रोज के हेत लग दयो मिसर जू रोइ ॥४॥
Just as the straws while burning in ire are flabbergasted, in the same way, the Brahmin got enraged in his mind and thinking about his means of sustenance, he wept.4.


"Just as the straws while burning in ire are flabbergasted":...is this an english translation - straws burning are flabberghasted???

chatpatai chit mai jario trin - as anger took hold;;we know 'chhatpatai'.... squirming helplessly; chit mai - in the mind

??? squirmed with helplessness, as the burning anger arose to consume the 'trin'...that is how the brahmin was furious in his mind, thinking about his livlihood, that he wept.


>>>> and we sing it tunes every day pretending this is an ode ot the sikhs.

.........

ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਸ਼ਕਤਿ ਪਦ ਉਚਰਿ ਕੈ ਪੁਨ ਕਹੁ ਸ਼ਕਤ ਬਿਸੇਖ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਸੈਹਥੀ ਕੇ ਸਕਲ ਨਿਕਸਤ ਜਾਹਿ ਅਸੇਖ ॥੪੭॥
प्रिथम शकति पद उचरि कै पुन कहु शकत बिसेख ॥ नाम सैहथी के सकल निकसत जाहि असेख ॥४७॥
Uttering the word "Shakti" in the beginning and then speaking the word "Shakat", all the names of Saihathi are uttered.47.

This from the follwing shastar mala...which part is gurmatt? Theses are various mantras employed in saakat-worship rituals. .

We do know the gurmatt views on sakatvaad,,and duality of siv-sakti.


Acknowledged With Thanks :From Mrs A Singh Canada.

Gyani Jarnail Singh

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

but seelctivley following the SRM is also wrong and should be condemned..right ??
The SRM specifically states that NO BOOK should be paraksh at PAR with SGGS....yet this is ignored at many places - including two Takhats where the dsm garnth is parkash at PAR with SGGS and sehaj paaths, akhand paatsh hukmnamas etc are taken from this book same as from SGGS.
Did any of the academicians etc condemn this anti SRM practise at the dsm garnth seminar ?? Do any of the sampardiyas condemn it....?? this dual paraksh is also at chowk mehta ?? can anyone confirm ??
Gyani jarnail Singh

 

[carolineislands]

My name is Bhagat Singh

I'm so sorry for my typo! :: I didn't mean to be disrespectful... I often confuse those two words when I am typing too fast. Please accept my apology.

...that has nothing to do with Dasam Granth.

speaking of amrit and khalsa...

amrit... It should be treated nothing more than an old tradition.

So there are Khalsa who are not mainstream amritdhari Sikhs, and do not consider SRM as equal to SGGS, perhaps don't even consider SRM as the last word?

I did read most of SRM on the website and also read some articles describing the process of constructing the SRM. I found that it happened VERY recently, like in the 1940s and that it took about 20 years to do it as the groups of authors changed so much. I even read that a couple of them were excommunicated during the process. As I was reading that I was thinking, "How could this document NOT contain at least some element of human error?" Which explains how some things about it run contrary to the spirit of Guru Nanak's writings.

I have no clue but I know kala Afghana would agree with me one this one. :whisling:
I believed such things, before I knew of kala afghana so don't say i am following his cult or sumtin.

Well, you'll not hear this accusation from me as I had thought these things before I ever even knew anything about the politics surrounding the issue.

no, critisize it! See how people respond to you.

Oh, I already have and DID see. LOL

Those are blind rituals with no meaning.

I'm really glad this isn't Islam or you'd have a fatwa on you for that.

At this point someone is gona get up and be like isnt keeping hair and combing hair a ritual as well.

I combed my hair a couple of times a day before I ever knew there was such a thing as a Sikh. I understand keeping hair -- for one thing it is a beautiful sign and a celebration of the beauty of being human. I am still trimming my hair a little as it grows because I had a haircut style when I decided to let it grow and I am trimming that style out of the ends of it until it is even then I will leave it alone.

Yes it distubrs me very much to see these things happening. That's why I am not attracted to gurudwaras anymore. I used to love to go there. I can't help speaking out, and I can't keep my mouth shut, so I just don't go.

Okay, I'm going to be honest since you have shown such courage. I have been thinking a long time about organized religion and how it is almost universal that the message of a prophet or teacher ends up boxed up and constrained by the intellectual and spiritual limitations of the human mind. And I have thought a lot about the difference between a follower of Jesus Christ and a "Christian" and the difference between the message and the organized religion of almost all the wise teachers that God has sent to mankind throughout our history. I too am seeing that there could be quite a difference between Sikhi and SikhISM. And I think you might be shooting right at the heart of those differences in this discussion. There are a lot of people who break away from organized religion and go straight to the heart of the message -- like Guru Nanak. And that's one thing that I truly love about him. I often ask myself about various teachers and leaders and wise messengers of God and wonder what they would think if they were to come back and see the religions that have sprung up out of human perceptions of their message. Ever wondered about that?

Define gurbani.

Me? Well, okay I'll give it a shot. The words and message of the Guru?

One should always question their beliefs, so they always remain open minded. Otherwise it becomes blind faith, which Guru Nanak preached against.

That's what I was thinking.

 

[BhagatSingh]

RTehatnama mentioned by Bhagat singh is not Sikh rehat maryada.Go to SGPC site to know rehat maryada.Please do not mislead people here if you do not about rehat maryada.

Where does the rehit maryada come from?

 

[BhagatSingh]

but seelctivley following the SRM is also wrong and should be condemned..right ??
The SRM specifically states that NO BOOK should be paraksh at PAR with SGGS....yet this is ignored at many places - including two Takhats where the dsm garnth is parkash at PAR with SGGS and sehaj paaths, akhand paatsh hukmnamas etc are taken from this book same as from SGGS.
Did any of the academicians etc condemn this anti SRM practise at the dsm garnth seminar ?? Do any of the sampardiyas condemn it....?? this dual paraksh is also at chowk mehta ?? can anyone confirm ??
Gyani jarnail Singh

You hit the spot Jarnail Singh Ji.

 

[BhagatSingh]

I'm so sorry for my typo! :: I didn't mean to be disrespectful... I often confuse those two words when I am typing too fast. Please accept my apology.

Apology accepted.

speaking of amrit and khalsa... So there are Khalsa who are not mainstream amritdhari Sikhs, and do not consider SRM as equal to SGGS, perhaps don't even consider SRM as the last word?

I am not even sure where the term Khalsa comes from anymore... someone help me out here. What defines a khalsa and what defines a sikh? I am not even sure anymore.
SRM in no way, is equal to SGGS, nothing is! No scripture in the world is equal to SGGS, at the moment.
In my opinion, SRM was written to take the hindu influences out of Sikhism.

I did read most of SRM on the website and also read some articles describing the process of constructing the SRM. I found that it happened VERY recently, like in the 1940s and that it took about 20 years to do it as the groups of authors changed so much. I even read that a couple of them were excommunicated during the process. As I was reading that I was thinking, "How could this document NOT contain at least some element of human error?" Which explains how some things about it run contrary to the spirit of Guru Nanak's writings.

Well, it does. Why didn't Guru Gobind Singh write the SRM? Why did Guru Gobind Singh start the Khalsa in the first place? Was SGGS not enough? What was the point of the sweetened water? (my theory was that it was to attract attention) Why the need of just 5 heads, why not 7, 10? 11? 12? 100? 2? 1?
Why didn't he compile Dasam Granth? People say he chose to "leave his body", then if he really had a choice, then he could have easily compiled Dasam Granth.
When did Sarbloh Granth come in to the picture? Guru Gobind Singh was only 42 when he died. Did he have time to write all these granths?
Assuming he wrote all those. WHy did he only put ONE passage in SGGS? Was his writings not worthy? At this point, someone will be like, he didn't consider himself a Guru and therefore, did not want his writings to be included in SGGS. What??
Guru Gobind SIngh was an intelectual man, agreed? Would an intellectual man think like that? Would a logical thinker let his feelings get in the way of his purpose/goal.
Anyway, why did he bow down to only SGGS?
[SIZE=-1]I have too many questions. Unfortunately, they cannot be answered to my satisfaction.
[/SIZE]

Oh, I already have and DID see. LOL

What were your observations?

I'm really glad this isn't Islam or you'd have a fatwa on you for that.

No? Whats excommunication then?

I combed my hair a couple of times a day before I ever knew there was such a thing as a Sikh. I understand keeping hair -- for one thing it is a beautiful sign and a celebration of the beauty of being human.

Well said.

I am still trimming my hair a little as it grows because I had a haircut style when I decided to let it grow and I am trimming that style out of the ends of it until it is even then I will leave it alone.

why trim it? Until its even? I didnt understand that part.

Okay, I'm going to be honest since you have shown such courage. I have been thinking a long time about organized religion and how it is almost universal that the message of a prophet or teacher ends up boxed up and constrained by the intellectual and spiritual limitations of the human mind. And I have thought a lot about the difference between a follower of Jesus Christ and a "Christian" and the difference between the message and the organized religion of almost all the wise teachers that God has sent to mankind throughout our history. I too am seeing that there could be quite a difference between Sikhi and SikhISM. And I think you might be shooting right at the heart of those differences in this discussion. There are a lot of people who break away from organized religion and go straight to the heart of the message -- like Guru Nanak. And that's one thing that I truly love about him. I often ask myself about various teachers and leaders and wise messengers of God and wonder what they would think if they were to come back and see the religions that have sprung up out of human perceptions of their message. Ever wondered about that?

oh yes! Many times!
And I often wonder what Muhammad would think of the present state of Islam... :shifty:

Me? Well, okay I'll give it a shot. The words and message of the Guru?

That's what most people use to call Dasam Granth, gurbani.

 

[Inder singh]

jarnail singh ji

The is a complete distortion of the verses of kahals mehma by some *******ed writer to suit her own taste.I am amazed that you are aGian and have no knowledge of Dasam Granth and also siv shakti that is used many times in SGGS ji.This is called distortion for propaganda sake.

I think your group is well knit and the same writing is circualted among you gyus.Most of this is a lie and hence is propagnda.Read below:

The couplets quoted by the poster are from Khalsa mehma.There is an episode that occurred before khalsa initiation.

Guru ji had arranged a langar and people were called from far and wide.As sangat arrived they took langar.When Brahmins came to know that langar is being served and they have not been invited first ,they refused to take langar.

Some how sikhs called in their leader kesho das.He also refused to take langar as he thought the langar had become defiled by low caste people.Guru ji is advising Him( Mishar is brahmin) that Guru ji does not consider right to give charity to brahmins anymore as times have changed.

He is advising Brahmins by apprecitating his sikhs that they have stood by him through thick and thin.He tells him that his sikhs are better brahmins than him and being armed they are also khatris.
Stanza two and three relate to that.

Seeing his livelihood being gone' kesho ram Pandit left the place.This has been explained in detail in translation of Dasam granth by Giani narain singh ji.

<<<<Uttering the word "Shakti" in the beginning and then speaking the word "Shakat", all the names of Saihathi are uttered.47.

This from the follwing shastar mala...which part is gurmatt? Theses are various mantras employed in saakat-worship rituals. .

We do know the gurmatt views on sakatvaad,,and duality of siv-sakti. >>>>>

Response

The line in question is given below.

ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਸ਼ਕਤਿ ਪਦ ਉਚਰਿ ਕੈ ਪੁਨ ਕਹੁ ਸ਼ਕਤ ਬਿਸੇਖ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਸੈਹਥੀ ਕੇ ਸਕਲ ਨਿਕਸਤ ਜਾਹਿ ਅਸੇਖ ॥੪੭॥
प्रिथम शकति पद उचरि कै पुन कहु शकत बिसेख ॥ नाम सैहथी के सकल निकसत जाहि असेख ॥४७॥
Uttering the word "Shakti" in the beginning and then speaking the word "Shakat", all the names of Saihathi are uttered.47

Shashtra naam mala includes the description of the various weapons usedin warfare. Details ofweapons merge into the worship of the timeless lord.

There is neither any siv shakti nor any shakat mat being mentioned here.saihathi is a spear still carried by Nihungs.

By the way siv shakti comes many times in SGGS where shakti means energy and siv means akal purakh.Siv shakti means power of akal purakh.(This does not relate to shakti of Hindu deity.Moreover shakat mat does not believe in Shiva.They believe in Devi as absolute entity.)

jah daykhaa tah rav rahay siv saktee kaa mayl.
Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of consciousness and matter.

Ang 21 ,SGGS

Inder Singh

 

[Inder singh]

Rehat maryada comes from various traditions ,central messages of rehtanamas and gurmat principles that were transferred from generation to generations.

 

[Inder singh]

<<<<The SRM specifically states that NO BOOK should be paraksh at PAR with SGGS....yet this is ignored at many places - including two Takhats where the dsm garnth is parkash at PAR with SGGS and sehaj paaths, akhand paatsh hukmnamas etc are taken from this book same as from SGGS.
Did any of the academicians etc condemn this anti SRM practise at the dsm garnth seminar ?? Do any of the sampardiyas condemn it....?? this dual paraksh is also at chowk mehta>>>

Response

There is more happening on that front just because some preverts have maligned dasam Granth so badly and believers are giving back.

Do not mistake me ,Dasam Granth was in prakash during khalsa rule also along SGGS and in prakash at akal takhat till 1942.

I believe in supermacy of SGGS ji as our Guru ,but heavens are not going to fall if there is prakash of Dasam granth at birth and death place of sahib Guru Gobind singh ji.

 

[Inder singh]

<<<<Why didn't he compile Dasam Granth? People say he chose to "leave his body", then if he really had a choice, then he could have easily compiled Dasam Granth.>>>

Response
there are two birs of Dasam Granth that are of Guru ji's time.

Anadpuri amd patna bir.We have manuscripts with bus.

<<<<When did Sarbloh Granth come in to the picture? Guru Gobind Singh was only 42 when he died. Did he have time to write all these granths? >>>

It took him almost two decades to write this Granth.Dates are there in Dasam granth itself.

<<<Assuming he wrote all those. WHy did he only put ONE passage in SGGS? Was his writings not worthy? At this point, someone will be like, he didn't consider himself a Guru and therefore, did not want his writings to be included in SGGS. What?? >>

Gur Granth is universal dealing with spirituality whereas Dasam Granth deals with sargun saroop.There is a difference thgere.

<<<<Guru Gobind SIngh was an intelectual man, agreed? Would an intellectual man think like that? Would a logical thinker let his feelings get in the way of his purpose/goal.
Anyway, why did he bow down to only SGGS?
[SIZE=-1]I have too many questions. Unfortunately, they cannot be answered to my satisfaction.>>>

Response

One deals with Nirgun saroop and other with organizational aspects of khalsa or when tyranny manifests it tells us reply back.

What are your questions.First read dasam Granth and then put questions as you will understand better.
[/SIZE]

 

[carolineislands]

WHy did he (Guru Gobind Singh ji) only put ONE passage in SGGS?

I would assume because that is what he deemed necessary.

[SIZE=-1]I have too many questions. Unfortunately, they cannot be answered to my satisfaction.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1] Yeah, me too. I just ask the questions, gather up the answers and let my heart fill in the blanks.
[/SIZE]

What were your observations? re: reactions to my questioning the veracity of the SRM

I felt like I just showed up at a Taliban picnic with a bottle of wine and a plate of pork chops.OMG

"Oops."

Whats excommunication then?

In MY opinion? Foolishness. Drawing imaginary circles around us and our friends. Two little kids in a tree house shouting down to their buddy, "YOU can't come up here anymore because you broke the club rules!!" Seriously, what difference does it make? Does being excommunicated mean you can't do simran, or read SGGS? Does it mean you can't chant Waheguru? Do the shop owners stop selling you dastar cloth? No? Then who cares...

Trim?? Until its even? I didnt understand that part.

You know how haircut styles are short in some places and long in others? When you just let one of those grow out you end up looking like someone chopped a hunk out of your hair or something. I'm just letting all the hair get close to the same length. It also has ends that were dyed and if your hair is damaged really bad like that it can just keep splitting higher and higher and your hair won't really grow until you get those ends off and stop the splitting -- kind of like a piece of wood that's been split and will just keep going like that.

And I often wonder what Muhammad would think of the present state of Islam... :shifty:

Yeeks! He'd probably look at the Hadith and be like, "What in the *** is THIS?" "I did WHAT?" "He said WHAT?" "Who the heck is SHE?"

That's what most people use to call Dasam Granth, gurbani.

So the only thing that ALL Sikhs believe to be gurbani is SGGS? That's the only writing that's accepted by everyone then... It seems like it would keep things simpler to just agree on SGGS and move on from there. Focusing on the differences is just going to repeat history over and over and over again.

JMHO