Questions From A Non-sikh

[Original]

Hello everyone who has responded; thank you very much for the responses. Original, harry haller, your responses in particular have given me a lot to think about. Unfortunately I have been involved in quite a long argument on another forum regarding this topic, and I simply don't have the energy or the time to debate anymore. Thank you once again.

Here's a parting present from the Sikh camp !

Once upon a time, out in the forest lived a monk with his young son. During the young son's growing up years the monk attended to his son's basic needs as a single parent and spent the rest of his time in meditation. Many years later when the son had reached the age of reason and discretion he spoke to his father thus, "father, I've decided to leave home"
"but why?" questioned the father
"because I want to find "myself", replied the son
"where", asked the father
"out in the social world of men, women and society in general. I cannot accept your way of life to do nothing but sit hours on end meditating - I'm sorry".
To which his father replied, "very well then ! do come home and tell me when you've found it".

Taking leave from his father the son sets off to the world of men, women and the rest.

Having spent years in pursuit of leisures and pleasures of life the son returns home. As always, he find his father sitting outside in the garden meditating; nothing changed, thought he.

Seeing his son return home, the father got up and embraced him. The two having met after so many years had so much to talk and after the usual meet, greet and treat out of the way, the father said, "tell me, have you found yourself ?". Shaking his head the son replied "no" and in disbelief sank to the ground. His father reassuring and encouraging to worry not, nudged him to look up, and pointing to an empty basin lying in the corner of the room, the father said, "go get some rest and take that empty basin with you and bring it before me in the morning filled with water. Oh yes, together with a spoonful of salt".

Accordingly, first thing in the morning the son placed the basin filled with water before his father. The father instructed his son to add the salt to the water. After a few minutes the father spoke, "sip the water from this end and tell me what do you taste".
The son sips and replies "the water is salty".
"Now sip from the Middle and tell me what do you taste" requested the father. ""again, salty water" replied the son
"And, now this end" pointing at the basin the father requested.
"salty water" answered the son.

"You see" continued the father, "the self is like the salty water, pervasive and everywhere. Because I'd found mine I sit therefore".

 

[Harry Haller]

Here's a parting present from the Sikh camp !

Once upon a time, out in the forest lived a monk with his young son. During the young son's growing up years the monk attended to his son's basic needs as a single parent and spent the rest of his time in meditation. Many years later when the son had reached the age of reason and discretion he spoke to his father thus, "father, I've decided to leave home"
"but why?" questioned the father
"because I want to find "myself", replied the son
"where", asked the father
"out in the social world of men, women and society in general. I cannot accept your way of life to do nothing but sit hours on end meditating - I'm sorry".
To which his father replied, "very well then ! do come home and tell me when you've found it".

Taking leave from his father the son sets off to the world of men, women and the rest.

Having spent years in pursuit of leisures and pleasures of life the son returns home. As always, he find his father sitting outside in the garden meditating; nothing changed, thought he.

Seeing his son return home, the father got up and embraced him. The two having met after so many years had so much to talk and after the usual meet, greet and treat out of the way, the father said, "tell me, have you found yourself ?". Shaking his head the son replied "no" and in disbelief sank to the ground. His father reassuring and encouraging to worry not, nudged him to look up, and pointing to an empty basin lying in the corner of the room, the father said, "go get some rest and take that empty basin with you and bring it before me in the morning filled with water. Oh yes, together with a spoonful of salt".

Accordingly, first thing in the morning the son placed the basin filled with water before his father. The father instructed his son to add the salt to the water. After a few minutes the father spoke, "sip the water from this end and tell me what do you taste".
The son sips and replies "the water is salty".
"Now sip from the Middle and tell me what do you taste" requested the father. ""again, salty water" replied the son
"And, now this end" pointing at the basin the father requested.
"salty water" answered the son.

"You see" continued the father, "the self is like the salty water, pervasive and everywhere. Because I'd found mine I sit therefore".

I am sorry I see nothing particularly Sikh about this story, if anything the SGGS counsels against sitting on mountaintops or even gardens doing nothing other than losing in the self. Life is a rich tapestry or experiences, emotions, challenges, tasks and education, Sikhism gives you the tools and the manner in which to experience all this, but experience it please.

Guru Nanakji did not spend his entire life meditating in the garden, he travelled, extensively, met people, had experiences, lived.........

 

[Original]

I am sorry I see nothing particularly Sikh about this story, if anything the SGGS counsels against sitting on mountaintops or even gardens doing nothing other than losing in the self. Life is a rich tapestry or experiences, emotions, challenges, tasks and education, Sikhism gives you the tools and the manner in which to experience all this, but experience it please.

Guru Nanakji did not spend his entire life meditating in the garden, he travelled, extensively, met people, had experiences, lived.........

Totally agree with you, but you've missed the gist with which I wrote. This here a parable is an illustration for the young searcher [HFTarasque] in general of spirituality and not necessarily about Sikhism. And, I was, if you like, metaphorically saying God is not exclusively confinded to one faith but randomly available to all.

Much obliged

 

[HFTarasque]

to help me live an honest and true life and to then die in peace. Most enlightened people just turn into babas anyway. The others keep it to themselves, so what is the point in finding enlightenment?



no, absolutely not, the code of conduct exists to make you a better person, anyone who follows it out of fear, or duty is, in my view, an idiot. Follow it out of love, or try to follow it out of love, or don't follow it at all. Be a Sikh because you love the code.No one should struggle with being a SIkh, you just need to get the levels right, a Khalsa is the highest a Sikh can be, it should be a pleasure, not a responsibility.


Well I do, yes, I cannot speak for whether others consider me a Sikh.



What are spiritual matters? What does it mean to be spiritually ignorant? There seems to be so many different meanings of the word spiritual, I am going to have to ask you to clarify.


so that means then was kalyug, now is kalyug, which time was not kalyug?



A quick google search for porn shows 372 million results, the word spiritual shows 277 million. strangely enough the words spiritual porn show 6.4 million!

People are starting to look beyond a quick fix of pleasure in my view, I guess that is my definition of spiritual, looking beyond temporary pleasures.

It is an interesting question, and probably not one that I have the learning to be able to properly answer. But if you are going to ask that, then why not ask what the purpose is in living an honest and true life? That line of questioning doesn't lead you to answers, IMO.

I think spiritual matters are anything to do with connecting to higher powers, which may or may not be obvious and visible in our lives. Call that God, Waheguru, the Universe, whatever you want. To be spiritually ignorant is to turn away from that, and pursue things that satisfy the mind but stunt your long-term growth. This is my definition of it of course, I'm sure others will have different ones.

I can't answer that definitively, as it's a fairly new idea to me. I could see an argument that this physical world IS always Kalyug, as that is the nature of the world. That's kind of the idea that I've always grown up with, anyway.

O_O Is it wrong that I'm kind of curious what those 6,4 million results are? I would agree that being spiritual is looking beyond temporary pleasures, though.

Hi,

In opening I would like to say that I have a lot of love and respect for my Buddhist Brothers and Sisters, am a long-time Meditator of the breathe (8 years), and also study the Theravada school of thought.

<<1. Buddhism and Sikhism I think are largely similar, but they have a major difference that I find hard to reconcile. Buddhism (at least Theravadan and Zen) teaches that the existence of God can't be answered for sure.>>

I would tend to be in agreement with yourself with respect to Sikhi and Buddhism being similar.

My stance is that the Teachings that came through the Buddha are also found in the Guru Granth Sahib.

The difference with regards to God and no-God is, at one level, but a semantic one.

From my understanding Sikhs and Buddhists are both describing that Divinity is everywhere, and whilst Sikhs openly acknowledge it and perfectly comfortable with calling it God, Buddhists are, respectfully, indifferent to it.

For illustration purposes, imagine a pool of water from which all of life and everything has appeared from. Sikhs would see that as Divine and call it God; Buddhists would say that that was merely performing its natural function.

A further illustration, imagine someone you love, respect and admire. Sikhs would acknowledge that, Buddhists would see it too but say that it is just a person.

Both acknowledge it and recognise the attributes but have different stances, but that is all they are at the end, simply stances.

On a more practical level, I must admit that personally, the differences do begin to take effect over time. If I look at the person who I love in an indifferent way, which is not wholly incorrect when looked at from this perspective, one can see the cumulative effect.

As a Sikh I naturally and rightly believe that that God is everywhere and there is a feeling of love, comfort, warmth, a strong sense of security as well as belonging that comes with it.

When one is indifferent to it, it initially feels less then respectful to begin with, and then somewhat empty, and ultimately isolated as one progresses on the path.

Having gone through this, I have now reached a happy medium where fully acknowledge God is everywhere and meditate, do Prayer & Ardas, and Sewa too.

In Summary, Sikhi, at its most fundamental level recognizes, re-establishes, and fully acknowledges the most important relationship in life, which is with the Creator, Buddhist also see it, but are indiffent to the Creator.

<<and the same can be said for the soul.>>

Personally I believe in soul as The Guru and previous Teachers taught and it intuitively makes sense to me.

When on dies the spark of energy with you is extinguished and passes on in another Form, Rebirth as the Buddhists call it. That was the cause of you to be alive. There is a lot of debate about this even within Buddhism. Please look into Tathāgatagarbha - essentially that we already possess a seed, which when surrounded by the right conditions will flourish and allow us to become enlightened.
Note how this not that different to what the Guru has taught except that Sikhs acknowledge that the seed is Divine in origin.

<<Instead the Buddha says that we should forget such questions, and instead focus on achieving Nirvana, as these questions impede our spiritual growth. Sikhi (as far as I am aware) states that our ultimate purpose is to merge with God, and reach Sach Khand.>>

For Me, Sach Khand and Nirvana are essentially the same, once again semantics.

"Sach Khand: The Realm Of Formless Truth

...After experiencing the fourth realm, he becomes Self-realized. Once a devotee attains Self-realization, he becomes situated in this final realm of Truth, the ultimate stage of Spiritual experience of linking with the Absolute. ... It's also called in the Gurbani Chauthaa Pada (Fourth State) because it is beyond three qualities of Maya.... Param Anand (Bliss), Jeevanmukti (living liberated)... state of absolute Peace and tranquility, and so on. It is a state of existence in which the Aatmaan of the individual is linked and absorbed in the Mool, like a drop of water in the ocean.
...
At this point, the seeker has become one with his Mool (Source, Origin, Joti-Svaroopa...) within. Here, he identifies himself with the One True, Formless, Infinite Consciousness. Linked with his Origin, the Absolute Reality, his Soul links with the Spirit just as rivers merge with the ocean. This is the journey of an Spiritual aspirant. This journey begins from a material plane and ends at the Spiritual Plane. But, the SGGS asserts that those who have completed this journey are very "rare" in this world.

Source: http://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart11.htm

<<The problem is, I can see and understand the reasoning behind both of these positions, and I have a really hard time figuring out what to believe on this issue. How can I resolve this conflict?>>

Ultimately practice is what matters.

Sikhs, such as myself sincerely have a lot of love, respect and reverence for the Buddha and his teachings but ultimately place thier faith the Guru, Dharma and Sangat as His teachings were complete, recorded and finalized through The Guru.

The Guru Granth Sahib has plurality at its heart and recognises that the teachings have been re-transmitted through a Noble Lineage which included Ram, Krishna and The Buddha, but recoginise that Enlightment will come through Nanak.

Ākẖahi keṯe kīṯe buḏẖ.
The many created Buddhas speak
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ang 6

Nānak kahai kahāvai so▫e. ||5||12||
Says Nanak, I speak as He causes me to speak. ||5||12||

Thanks and hope that helps,

Lotus

Regarding the God issue, this is a matter which confuses me greatly about the Sikh position. I have seen many people stating that Sikhi has a very pantheistic view of God, a Creator that is part of all creation but also outside of it, which can be reached by meditating within yourself (the atman/brahman kind of idea, like a source from which all of reality dwells, but an impersonal one, not a literal being). I think of this as similar to Gestalt, the whole is more than the sum of its parts. I have also heard some state that the Sikh view of God is more of a universal energy, that the Hukam is the system and rules by which the universe operates (very similar to a Buddhist concept). I have also heard some Sikhs speaking of a very Abrahamic view of God, where he is this omnipotent omniscient Creator who listens to prayers and is worshipped (for example the folks over at sikhiwiki). It is this last idea that I struggle very much with, and I find to not only be logically contradictory, but also inconsistent with what I understand of the Guru's teachings. Could you please explain this to me?

Another question I have on the issue is, if God is either of the first two, why pray? Why do ardaas? What is the purpose of praying to a being which is essentially the sum of creation, an unconscious and unacting source? Why not meditate inwardly, and work to cut away the man-made separation of a person from everything else?

OTE="HFTarasque, post: 200897, member: 20677"]Hello everyone, I have received some very good answers to these questions on another forum and they recommended that I come here for a better discussion.

As the title of the thread suggests, I am currently exploring Sikhi as well as other religious beliefs (including Buddhism and Radha Soami, though I have issues with following a human master). I come from a Christian background, but I would not describe my beliefs as being particularly Christian, as I believe in an all-pervading God who is impersonal, and I believe in systems such as reincarnation and karma. So, I have many questions about Sikhi as I am on my search, and I was hoping that you all might be able to answer some questions for me. None of these questions are meant to challenge your beliefs at all, but merely to express my own doubts and challenges that I face in my search.

1. Buddhism and Sikhism I think are largely similar, but they have a major difference that I find hard to reconcile. Buddhism (at least Theravadan and Zen) teaches that the existence of God can't be answered for sure, and the same can be said for the soul. Instead the Buddha says that we should forget such questions, and instead focus on achieving Nirvana, as these questions impede our spiritual growth. Sikhi (as far as I am aware) states that our ultimate purpose is to merge with God, and reach Sach Khand. The problem is, I can see and understand the reasoning behind both of these positions, and I have a really hard time figuring out what to believe on this issue. How can I resolve this conflict?

All religions profess one and the same thing, but in they're own way. Sikhism is a way of life that places lot of emphasis on "truth" and truthful living, all else follows. God in Sikhism is timeless, featureless, shapeless and cannot therefore be grasped by the senses nor can it be analysed through human reason. At best it could be realised through honest labour [kirit], charitable disposition [seva] and nam jap [meditation]. The immortality of the soul is the bedrock of Sikhism - it is eternal. And, since it is non-matter it cannot be debated or discussed. You either believe or you dont. Your spiritual self will develop wiith time, so don't worry. If anything, enjoy and learn through socialisation.

2. Scriptures are obviously very important to Sikhs, as the SGGSJ forms the foundation for Sikhi. My question regarding this is, why is reading the Bani repeatedly so important? Is kirtan more beneficial than to practice simran and meditation on the atman inside? I can understand reading it for understanding, and of course reading scriptures at different times in our lives, we will receive different lessons. But is inward meditation not more valuable, provided it is done with a proper spiritual understanding?

More than scriptures are values and humanitarian principles which underpins Sikh thought and are considered indispensable. Reading or listening of Bani is recommended but is not essential; contemplation is equally rewarding for spiritual progress. Bani in Sikhism is God. And, to be connected to the best of one's practical endeavours is a state of bliss - an analogy would be when you was dating this girl and wanting to be connected to her 24/7. Similarly, an exalted soul would want to be connected to his/her lover forever, hence the reason for nam simran [remembering the lord]. Sikhism promotes the good, the beautiful and the just God - look for the three in the external world [grishat jeevan] before diving within. With age comes maturity and with maturity comes wisdom - exhaust the physical inclinations before embarking upon spiritual exploration [recommendation].

3. As I am young and come from the West (I am only 18), I have certain Western values which I find hard to reconcile with both Sikhism and Buddhism, even though I may find the religion very appealing. Specifically, I feel very strongly about gender equality, and that differences between men and women are almost entirely (if not entirely) cultural rather than biological or spiritual in nature. This means that I am a strong advocate of homosexual rights, gay marriage, and transgender rights. I realize that Sikhi has done a lot to stand up for many of these things, but at the same time, I see that homosexuals are not allowed to be married with the Anand Karaj. As a Westerner, this seems to be the same religious dogmatism that I tried to escape when I left Christianity, but maybe I am misunderstanding it.

Sikh God is non-discriminatory, so whatever make or model you is and whatever your personal inclinations are does not invalidate your affilliation. These are social issues and not spiritual. In Gods eyes all are weighed even stevens. As with all things, evolution plays a significant role in mapping and shaping the human genome and Sikhism will too in all eventuality accept values and views of contemprory social trends and adopt accordingly.

4. Marriages. As far as I understand, Sikhs do not condone love marriages, and instead practice arranged marriages. What is the harm in a love marriage, or in dating? Again I realize I come from a Western perspective, but I fail to see how these things are harmful to your spirituality. If all of your energy is focused on finding a partner, or on sexual promiscuity, or the like, I can definitely understand it. Also, why can an inter-faith marriage not be done with the Anand Karaj? If a Sikh wants to marry a non-Sikh, isn't that their choice? And if they want to do the marriage the Sikh way, is that not displaying the proper respect to Sikhi? For a long time, I dated a Muslim girl and we planned to be married. Sadly that didn't happen, but I can't imagine missing out on someone who may be the love of my life, because I am limited to only marrying someone of my religion.

This is very much social and not spiritual. Take for example the future King of England, Prince Charles. What are the chances of him marrying a check-out girl at a local store with whom he's fallen madly in love whilst visiting the store - love at first sight syndrome ? Quite remote, I'd imagine ! That's because society demands some intervention and respect for protocols over personal choices. From a spiritual perspective, the atman [soul] must do that which is in unison with parmatma [God] and act in accordance with its will. You exercising your freedoms as of rights will slow spiritual progress because true journey is singular, and your Juilet is God [connect within] and not this new find. However, your new find could be your soulmate, in which case it becomes your meditation, your salvation and a chance to culminate the form into the formless. Thus in unison with the divine reality.

5. Again as far as I understand, Guru Nanak Ji shunned religious labels. He stated "There is no Hindu, there is no Muslim." So therefore, why have his teachings started a religion? This is something I haven't been able to find much discussion about, and I am quite curious about it. Has Sikhism fallen prey to the same dogmatism that he taught against?

Sikhism is a way of life [philosophy] and because it exponentially admits mystical experiences it is classified as a religion.

6. The SGGSJ was named as the last Guru for the Sikhs. Does this mean there will never be another Guru? What about when we move out of Kal Yug and into the next age, will there be another succession of Gurus?

Guru is, Guru will be and Guru has always been - the word [sound current], it manifests in all creation.



I'm sorry for the long list of questions. I look forward to hearing your responses. Thank you.

I accept what you said about God, but I have a hard time taking things simply on faith. I need to have personal experience to believe something, I cannot simply believe it because it is what some people said sometime in history. My issue is that I can see, and understand, the arguments both for a pantheistic God, and also the argument that debating on God hinders spiritual progress. Since they both make sense, and they both ring true, but yet are obviously contradictory... What do I do with that?

I understand what you said about the marriage being more social than spiritual, but I'm afraid I didn't really follow what you said after that. How does exercising freedoms slow down spiritual progress? I just really didn't follow this, I'm sorry.

Respectfully, this didn't answer my question. You say the Guru is, will be, and has always been. In this case, what are you saying is Guru? Do you mean Waheguru? In that case, we are discussing something very different. Are you talking about enlightened men, such as the Gurus, and those who came before them? In that case, are you saying that the Guru Granth Sahib is the final Guru and there will be no more, or not?

Also, thank you for the story. I completely agree.

 

[Original]

It is an interesting question, and probably not one that I have the learning to be able to properly answer. But if you are going to ask that, then why not ask what the purpose is in living an honest and true life? That line of questioning doesn't lead you to answers, IMO.

I think spiritual matters are anything to do with connecting to higher powers, which may or may not be obvious and visible in our lives. Call that God, Waheguru, the Universe, whatever you want. To be spiritually ignorant is to turn away from that, and pursue things that satisfy the mind but stunt your long-term growth. This is my definition of it of course, I'm sure others will have different ones.

I can't answer that definitively, as it's a fairly new idea to me. I could see an argument that this physical world IS always Kalyug, as that is the nature of the world. That's kind of the idea that I've always grown up with, anyway.

O_O Is it wrong that I'm kind of curious what those 6,4 million results are? I would agree that being spiritual is looking beyond temporary pleasures, though.



Regarding the God issue, this is a matter which confuses me greatly about the Sikh position. I have seen many people stating that Sikhi has a very pantheistic view of God, a Creator that is part of all creation but also outside of it, which can be reached by meditating within yourself (the atman/brahman kind of idea, like a source from which all of reality dwells, but an impersonal one, not a literal being). I think of this as similar to Gestalt, the whole is more than the sum of its parts. I have also heard some state that the Sikh view of God is more of a universal energy, that the Hukam is the system and rules by which the universe operates (very similar to a Buddhist concept). I have also heard some Sikhs speaking of a very Abrahamic view of God, where he is this omnipotent omniscient Creator who listens to prayers and is worshipped (for example the folks over at sikhiwiki). It is this last idea that I struggle very much with, and I find to not only be logically contradictory, but also inconsistent with what I understand of the Guru's teachings. Could you please explain this to me?

Another question I have on the issue is, if God is either of the first two, why pray? Why do ardaas? What is the purpose of praying to a being which is essentially the sum of creation, an unconscious and unacting source? Why not meditate inwardly, and work to cut away the man-made separation of a person from everything else?



I accept what you said about God, but I have a hard time taking things simply on faith. I need to have personal experience to believe something, I cannot simply believe it because it is what some people said sometime in history. My issue is that I can see, and understand, the arguments both for a pantheistic God, and also the argument that debating on God hinders spiritual progress. Since they both make sense, and they both ring true, but yet are obviously contradictory... What do I do with that?

I understand what you said about the marriage being more social than spiritual, but I'm afraid I didn't really follow what you said after that. How does exercising freedoms slow down spiritual progress? I just really didn't follow this, I'm sorry.

Respectfully, this didn't answer my question. You say the Guru is, will be, and has always been. In this case, what are you saying is Guru? Do you mean Waheguru? In that case, we are discussing something very different. Are you talking about enlightened men, such as the Gurus, and those who came before them? In that case, are you saying that the Guru Granth Sahib is the final Guru and there will be no more, or not?

Also, thank you for the story. I completely agree.

Look son, you're at an age of experimentation, love n live and your Guru right now is everything that teaches you something. At 18, you're young and handsome - go and find yourself your otherhalf who'll make you a man, and then and only then step on to the spiritual path and that too after life has given you the cold shoulder. The sweet sense of spiritual wisdom will begin to make sense then - there can be no heaven without hell.

Go and play in God's garden without reservations - be human before becoming spiritual.

 

[HFTarasque]

Look son, you're at an age of experimentation, love n live and your Guru right now is everything that teaches you something. At 18, you're young and handsome - go and find yourself your otherhalf who'll make you a man, and then and only then step on to the spiritual path and that too after life has given you the cold shoulder. The sweet sense of spiritual wisdom will begin to make sense then - there can be no heaven without hell.

Go and play in God's garden without reservations - be human before becoming spiritual.

I yearn for the truth. I have experienced the parties, the 'dating', the 'living', and it feels empty to me. I am living that life of experimentation now, and it doesn't feel satisfying. I want to step onto the spiritual path, and find a love which will help me along that path. I know I am young, but being spiritual does not mean I cannot live.

 

[Original]

I yearn for the truth. I have experienced the parties, the 'dating', the 'living', and it feels empty to me. I am living that life of experimentation now, and it doesn't feel satisfying. I want to step onto the spiritual path, and find a love which will help me along that path. I know I am young, but being spiritual does not mean I cannot live.

Son, you'd just about broke puberty let alone maturity - spiritual studies are another world right now, so go and exhaust your human potential first. With age comes maturity and with maturity comes wisdom. Wisdom is the application and understanding of knowledge. The source of human knowledge is rationality and empirical observation. Just how much you've seen and experienced, tell me?

You need to be a human before you can be spiritual. Now you'd probably have an axe to grind and may feel like rebutting on what I'm saying ?

Consider this, a 2-3 year old infant ask's you, "where did I come from?". You can try telling the infant all that you know of the human procreation process all night long but the penny won't drop because the child's faculties hadn't yet developed to fully comprehend that level of information. However, the same child at around 10 - 14 years of age would come to know the same by the evolutionary processes of nature nurture without making attempts to know. Similarly, your cognitive mechanisms are yet developing to filter and digest information.

Truth is sat and sat is God and God is you -

Once upon a time, like you, a doll made of salt wanted to know the depth of the ocean. So she went along to a holyman who against all his endeavours tried persuading her to wait until maturity. But no, the doll wouldn't have any of that and persisted that he the holyman take her to an ocean. Relentlessly, he took her to the shores of the ocean and no sooner did she touch the waters did she melted.

Stay away son and go and find yourself among your social kind -

Goodnight & Godbless

 

[Inderjeet Kaur]

I have no questions and no answers for this discussion, just two comments.

1. I think this is the most interesting discussion I've read anywhere in a long time.

2, Any time you feel so inclined to go on a spiritual quest is the right time. Mine began when I first heard the song "The Impossible Dream." Before that I just pretty much accepted what I had been taught. That song made it personal. I was 11 or 12. I am now 63, still living with my "heart striving upward" and amazed at the journey.

BTW, I am a pretty standard, garden variety SRM Sikh.

Please continue. I want to hear more.

 

[HFTarasque]

I have no questions and no answers for this discussion, just two comments.

1. I think this is the most interesting discussion I've read anywhere in a long time.

2, Any time you feel so inclined to go on a spiritual quest is the right time. Mine began when I first heard the song "The Impossible Dream." Before that I just pretty much accepted what I had been taught. That song made it personal. I was 11 or 12. I am now 63, still living with my "heart striving upward" and amazed at the journey.

BTW, I am a pretty standard, garden variety SRM Sikh.

Please continue. I want to hear more.

Thank you. I deeply respect what Original Ji has to say, but I cannot agree with him speaking down to my abilities (not just mine, but anyone of my age). "Wisdom does not come from experience, wisdom comes from the capacity to experience." I started spiritually experimenting with meditation and such when I was around 12 as well, and I actually see youth as a good time to try new things and see what works for you, rather than later in life, when it is easy to simply be stuck in what you have always done and not have the deep energy to become spiritual. If you have anything to add to the discussion, I would like to hear your thoughts.

 

[Harry Haller]

Thank you. I deeply respect what Original Ji has to say, but I cannot agree with him speaking down to my abilities (not just mine, but anyone of my age).

Firstly, I did not find his post patronising at all, when a wise man tells me I am going wrong, I listen very carefully, its called humility.

Wisdom does not come from experience, wisdom comes from the capacity to experience." I started spiritually experimenting with meditation and such when I was around 12 as well, and I actually see youth as a good time to try new things and see what works for you, rather than later in life, when it is easy to simply be stuck in what you have always done and not have the deep energy to become spiritual.

and err you know this how? We are looking at this from the point of youth and maturity, you only have the ability to see it from a youth point of view.

I happen to agree with Originalji, you run the risk of of a lack of exposure to life and living, the experiences you are denying yourself, are actually what defines you and your ability to live. What is there to mediate on, if you have not lived?

 

[Harry Haller]

It is an interesting question, and probably not one that I have the learning to be able to properly answer. But if you are going to ask that, then why not ask what the purpose is in living an honest and true life? That line of questioning doesn't lead you to answers, IMO.

the purpose in living and honest and true life is contentment, in my opinion

 

[Original]

Thank you. I deeply respect what Original Ji has to say, but I cannot agree with him speaking down to my abilities (not just mine, but anyone of my age). "Wisdom does not come from experience, wisdom comes from the capacity to experience." I started spiritually experimenting with meditation and such when I was around 12 as well, and I actually see youth as a good time to try new things and see what works for you, rather than later in life, when it is easy to simply be stuck in what you have always done and not have the deep energy to become spiritual. If you have anything to add to the discussion, I would like to hear your thoughts.

Dear son

I'm not speaking down on your abilities I'm simply stating what is true. Your teacher is "life" it self. The trials, tribulations, the predilections and the prejudices, the complex of instincts and emotions, habits and convictions is what will make and shape you. As you will grow in the physical world so will you grow in your spiritual world.

Consider the following statement : all married bachelors are from Mars !

 

[Original]

Firstly, I did not find his post patronising at all, when a wise man tells me I am going wrong, I listen very carefully, its called humility.



and err you know this how? We are looking at this from the point of youth and maturity, you only have the ability to see it from a youth point of view.

I happen to agree with Originalji, you run the risk of of a lack of exposure to life and living, the experiences you are denying yourself, are actually what defines you and your ability to live. What is there to mediate on, if you have not lived?

H

Sell the shop and become "Uncle Don - solutions to dissolutions" - you're write up for the young grasshopper too good !

 

[HFTarasque]

Firstly, I did not find his post patronising at all, when a wise man tells me I am going wrong, I listen very carefully, its called humility.



and err you know this how? We are looking at this from the point of youth and maturity, you only have the ability to see it from a youth point of view.

I happen to agree with Originalji, you run the risk of of a lack of exposure to life and living, the experiences you are denying yourself, are actually what defines you and your ability to live. What is there to mediate on, if you have not lived?

Firstly, it wasn't patronizing, but I cannot agree with it, as it was insinuating that young people cannot be spiritual (or AS spiritual as when you are older). It only takes a quick look at the world to see just how wrong that is, and how many 'elders' are really just bigoted old men who have no spiritual progression whatsoever. Not to say this is always the case, of course, but it is simply insulting to say that a path I truly want to follow isn't right just because of my age.

I don't have to be old to see it. You can look at people, look at their lives, and see they are just as empty. The slaves running around their lives, with no contentment, no true satisfaction, just slaves to their jobs, their social circles, and the life they have stuck themselves into. How is that desirable? Can I not say, now, that I do not want that life? If I can't choose my path now, then what is the purpose of choosing a path at all?

Being spiritual doesn't mean I can't live. I'm not exactly sure what you are suggesting. Are you implying that I should be going to parties, getting drunk, doing drugs, being sexually promiscuous, and wasting away my life because that is "experience"? Some experiences I can see I simply don't need to have. There is no room in my life for heroin, and there is no reason I should choose to have that experience. Am I denying myself an experience by being spiritual? On the contrary, I would say that I am denying myself an experience of the divine by NOT being spiritual. And that experience is higher than any this world can offer. One does not need to experience genocide, in order to contemplate it. One does not need to be hated, in order to meditate on the nature of hate. Some experiences simply are not necessary to have personally. What is there to meditate on, if I have not lived? Why are you choosing to meditate on your life? Are there not higher things to meditate on? Besides all of this, I don't know when I will die. I may die tomorrow. I would rather lead a satisfying life now, instead of waiting until I am 'old and mature' to do it. Why wait?

If the choice is between an empty life of 'experience', and a satisfying life of spirituality, where I sacrifice some experiences (like getting blackout drunk. Oh snap, I was really looking forward to that one), I will choose the latter, every time. I am not looking for empty experiences, filled with the illusions of this world. I'm looking for the truth. Please understand my search, and do not misunderstand me. I'm not as different from you as you think.

Edit: I want to be clear about something. I am not saying this just for me. It's not a matter of pride, or insisting that my way is right. I am simply presenting that people younger than yourselves CAN have spirituality, and it CAN be beneficial in their lives. Not everyone is cut out to be a wild and crazy teenager. I never have been, and I never want to, and I know there are others out there like me.

 

[Harry Haller]

Firstly, it wasn't patronizing, but I cannot agree with it, as it was insinuating that young people cannot be spiritual (or AS spiritual as when you are older).

I happen to agree, I do not think young people can be as spiritual as they could be when they are older.

It only takes a quick look at the world to see just how wrong that is, and how many 'elders' are really just bigoted old men who have no spiritual progression whatsoever

yes, they are the ones that started early!

Not to say this is always the case, of course, but it is simply insulting to say that a path I truly want to follow isn't right just because of my age.

No one is insulting you, I think you have been addressed with much love, personally

I don't have to be old to see it. You can look at people, look at their lives, and see they are just as empty. The slaves running around their lives, with no contentment, no true satisfaction, just slaves to their jobs, their social circles, and the life they have stuck themselves into. How is that desirable? Can I not say, now, that I do not want that life? If I can't choose my path now, then what is the purpose of choosing a path at all?

I detect quite an ego here, the slaves? you mean ordinary people trying to survive and make a better world for themselves and their children? Those slaves are my brothers and sisters.

Being spiritual doesn't mean I can't live. I'm not exactly sure what you are suggesting. Are you implying that I should be going to parties, getting drunk, doing drugs, being sexually promiscuous, and wasting away my life because that is "experience"?

Who mentioned sex, booze and drugs? You were told to live a little, so is this your definition of living?

Some experiences I can see I simply don't need to have. There is no room in my life for heroin, and there is no reason I should choose to have that experience. Am I denying myself an experience by being spiritual? On the contrary, I would say that I am denying myself an experience of the divine by NOT being spiritual. And that experience is higher than any this world can offer. One does not need to experience genocide, in order to contemplate it. One does not need to be hated, in order to meditate on the nature of hate. Some experiences simply are not necessary to have personally. What is there to meditate on, if I have not lived? Why are you choosing to meditate on your life? Are there not higher things to meditate on? Besides all of this, I don't know when I will die. I may die tomorrow. I would rather lead a satisfying life now, instead of waiting until I am 'old and mature' to do it. Why wait?

Hmm your right, I suggest you find a mountain and some ashes, maybe a nice lionskin

If the choice is between an empty life of 'experience', and a satisfying life of spirituality, where I sacrifice some experiences (like getting blackout drunk. Oh snap, I was really looking forward to that one), I will choose the latter, every time. I am not looking for empty experiences, filled with the illusions of this world. I'm looking for the truth. Please understand my search, and do not misunderstand me. I'm not as different from you as you think.

I think you are very different, I think you are looking for a religion, or way of life that makes you feel elite, better than the slaves, hah look at all them pathetic slaves, beavering away, working, living, having problems, overcoming problems, how very quaint!

Edit: I want to be clear about something. I am not saying this just for me. It's not a matter of pride, or insisting that my way is right. I am simply presenting that people younger than yourselves CAN have spirituality, and it CAN be beneficial in their lives. Not everyone is cut out to be a wild and crazy teenager. I never have been, and I never want to, and I know there are others out there like me.

Good Luck on your journey from all us slaves!

 

[HFTarasque]

You have really misinterpreted me here. I'm not wishing to get into an argument, and I am not wishing to insult anyone.

I happen to agree, I do not think young people can be as spiritual as they could be when they are older.

Alright. That is your opinion. Please do not use it to limit others. I have read many of your posts, and I can tell that you have very wise things to say. Don't keep others from pursuing that same wisdom.

yes, they are the ones that started early!

I'm not even going to respond to that...

No one is insulting you, I think you have been addressed with much love, personally

I think everyone here has been respectful to me, and I appreciate that. I find the limitations being put on me, and being pushed away from spirituality, to be degrading.

I detect quite an ego here, the slaves? you mean ordinary people trying to survive and make a better world for themselves and their children? Those slaves are my brothers and sisters.

Are you going to deny that there are people caught up in the illusions of this world, who do not think deeply but just act as parrots chasing this thing and the next? Those people exist. They are many. Should we have compassion for them? Absolutely. Just because they are caught in this world doesn't mean they are any lesser than you or me. It means they are on a different path, but it is not a path I choose, and they can always choose a different path. They're not locked into their lives. It is as simple as that. There is no ego. They are all manifestations of the same source, as I am. How can I be "better?"

Who mentioned sex, booze and drugs? You were told to live a little, so is this your definition of living?

Then I have to ask, what on earth were you referring to? Because honestly, outside of that, I can't think of ANYTHING that one cannot experience SIMULTANEOUSLY with spirituality. You both seem to be treating spirituality as something you sacrifice your entire life for, which sounds more like a hermit in the woods to me.

Hmm your right, I suggest you find a mountain and some ashes, maybe a nice lionskin

Really, do not misunderstand me on this. I never said that you should be an ascetic and forsake life and forsake experiences. Please don't put words into my mouth.

I think you are very different, I think you are looking for a religion, or way of life that makes you feel elite, better than the slaves, hah look at all them pathetic slaves, beavering away, working, living, having problems, overcoming problems, how very quaint!

If you think that is my position, then either I have not communicated myself clearly, or you have greatly misunderstood me. If you think I am trying to feel better than others, or feel elite, then there is simply no more point in continuing this conversation.

 

[Original]

Thank you. I deeply respect what Original Ji has to say, but I cannot agree with him speaking down to my abilities (not just mine, but anyone of my age). "Wisdom does not come from experience, wisdom comes from the capacity to experience." I started spiritually experimenting with meditation and such when I was around 12 as well, and I actually see youth as a good time to try new things and see what works for you, rather than later in life, when it is easy to simply be stuck in what you have always done and not have the deep energy to become spiritual. If you have anything to add to the discussion, I would like to hear your thoughts.

Young man,

Harry is your elder and a senior here at SPN - please exercise respect at all times. To be a good Sikh [student] pay due diligence to your seniors, even at the expense of an error

As for your visitor's visa [joke], please be at liberty to fire questions or whatever that takes your fancy and I’ll do the best I can to honour.


In the temple of Apollo at Delphi, the words “know thy self” were inscribed for a reason, because, the individual who knows him/herself knows what is advantageous to itself; it can discern the limits of its powers, and by doing what it knows, it provides itself with what it needs and so does well; or, conversely, by being scrupulous from what it knows not, it avoids mistakes and thereby mishaps.

Whereas, for those who do not know themselves, in the first place, knowing the spiritual within is like rocket science. That is not say, they are less likely to meet the spiritual, not at all, but may not avail the opportunity when it presents itself due to their ignorance. Of course, imagination, wonder, fancy, scepticism and the rest are modes of perception and can produce ideas, images, circumstances and situations to fill the void within, but son – life out there has all, and is waiting to be mined. Once you’ve found the spiritual you from the earth’s crust you’re best placed to put that on the lathe of the divine cutter/polisher [Sikhism]so it reflects your true illuminisoty.

You have the spirit of a warrior, have faith and all else will follow in good time. The ONE will find you – says Nanak.

Goodnight & Godbless

 

[HFTarasque]

Young man,

Harry is your elder and a senior here at SPN - please exercise respect at all times. To be a good Sikh [student] pay due diligence to your seniors, even at the expense of an error

As for your visitor's visa [joke], please be at liberty to fire questions or whatever that takes your fancy and I’ll do the best I can to honour.


In the temple of Apollo at Delphi, the words “know thy self” were inscribed for a reason, because, the individual who knows him/herself knows what is advantageous to itself; it can discern the limits of its powers, and by doing what it knows, it provides itself with what it needs and so does well; or, conversely, by being scrupulous from what it knows not, it avoids mistakes and thereby mishaps.

Whereas, for those who do not know themselves, in the first place, knowing the spiritual within is like rocket science. That is not say, they are less likely to meet the spiritual, not at all, but may not avail the opportunity when it presents itself due to their ignorance. Of course, imagination, wonder, fancy, scepticism and the rest are modes of perception and can produce ideas, images, circumstances and situations to fill the void within, but son – life out there has all, and is waiting to be mined. Once you’ve found the spiritual you from the earth’s crust you’re best placed to put that on the lathe of the divine cutter/polisher [Sikhism]so it reflects your true illuminisoty.

You have the spirit of a warrior, have faith and all else will follow in good time. The ONE will find you – says Nanak.

Goodnight & Godbless

Original Ji,

First of all, please do not address me as "young man." Unless you would like to be called "old man."

Harry is a wise man, and I recognize and respect his wisdom. However, I will not tolerate being put down. There are times for respect, and there are times to stand up for oneself. Also I think this is a cultural issue, because I refuse to respect someone solely because of their age. Age means nothing without wisdom and virtue.

I have asked questions, but unfortunately my last set of questions has gone unanswered.

On the contrary, I think that being spiritual is a part of knowing oneself. You can know how you act in certain situations, but can you really know who you are if you don't meditate and contemplate?

I don't know if I have a warrior spirit, but I am certainly a fighter. I have fought all my life, especially for expressing my beliefs within a community which does not accept deviation. I have lost friends, I have been alienated, I have been cursed and called a devil worshiper, simply because I expressed beliefs different from the accepted Christian understanding. This is a part of why I am feeling so pushed away now.

I have my path. Why would you dissuade me from following that path?

Good night, and I apologize for anything that may seem rude. I am trying to be direct, because it seems like I am not communicating well.

 

[JourneyOflife]

Original Ji,

First of all, please do not address me as "young man." Unless you would like to be called "old man."

Harry is a wise man, and I recognize and respect his wisdom. However, I will not tolerate being put down. There are times for respect, and there are times to stand up for oneself. Also I think this is a cultural issue, because I refuse to respect someone solely because of their age. Age means nothing without wisdom and virtue.

I have asked questions, but unfortunately my last set of questions has gone unanswered.

On the contrary, I think that being spiritual is a part of knowing oneself. You can know how you act in certain situations, but can you really know who you are if you don't meditate and contemplate?

I don't know if I have a warrior spirit, but I am certainly a fighter. I have fought all my life, especially for expressing my beliefs within a community which does not accept deviation. I have lost friends, I have been alienated, I have been cursed and called a devil worshiper, simply because I expressed beliefs different from the accepted Christian understanding. This is a part of why I am feeling so pushed away now.

I have my path. Why would you dissuade me from following that path?

Good night, and I apologize for anything that may seem rude. I am trying to be direct, because it seems like I am not communicating well.

Could you please summarize what you feel "your path" is? Our ages are much closer and I have siblings who are even closer to yours, want to have a discussion about it?

 

[Harry Haller]

You have really misinterpreted me here. I'm not wishing to get into an argument, and I am not wishing to insult anyone.

ok, accepted

Alright. That is your opinion. Please do not use it to limit others. I have read many of your posts, and I can tell that you have very wise things to say. Don't keep others from pursuing that same wisdom.

haha, I do not consider myself particularly wise, after all problems and issues in life are merely material for the next gag! However, whatever I have learned, has been learned from living.

I think everyone here has been respectful to me, and I appreciate that. I find the limitations being put on me, and being pushed away from spirituality, to be degrading.

oh your talking to the wrong people, there are many on this forum that would support you to the hilt, we are just expressing our opinions, and creating a dialogue for discussion, as that is how we learn, all of us, especially me, yesterday I learned loads about the SRM, its all good, but we should all be able to take a gentle bit of ribbing, and use humour to get us through. No one is pushing you away, again, we are just stating our experiences, I think Originalji has a similar background to me, I am not sure where Chazji or Luckyji have vanished to, as their input here would probably be useful to you.

Are you going to deny that there are people caught up in the illusions of this world, who do not think deeply but just act as parrots chasing this thing and the next? Those people exist. They are many. Should we have compassion for them? Absolutely. Just because they are caught in this world doesn't mean they are any lesser than you or me. It means they are on a different path, but it is not a path I choose, and they can always choose a different path. They're not locked into their lives. It is as simple as that. There is no ego. They are all manifestations of the same source, as I am. How can I be "better?"

Choose your path and live it, that is your right. Just as I and Originalji chose ours, choose yours, and live it!

Then I have to ask, what on earth were you referring to? Because honestly, outside of that, I can't think of ANYTHING that one cannot experience SIMULTANEOUSLY with spirituality. You both seem to be treating spirituality as something you sacrifice your entire life for, which sounds more like a hermit in the woods to me.

I dressed as a bear for 3 months, fluffy paws the lot, I am not sure you could experience that simultaneously with spirituality......(in fact there is a clip on youtube of me driving a Range Rover whilst singing 'my way')

Really, do not misunderstand me on this. I never said that you should be an ascetic and forsake life and forsake experiences. Please don't put words into my mouth.

accepted!

If you think that is my position, then either I have not communicated myself clearly, or you have greatly misunderstood me. If you think I am trying to feel better than others, or feel elite, then there is simply no more point in continuing this conversation.

to be misunderstood by one person is unfortunate, to be misunderstood by two,

look, your probably talking to the wrong people, all we are saying is maybe stop being so intense, live a little and live your life through the grace of God.

now come here and give me a hug