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Questions From A Non-sikh

Original

Writer
SPNer
Jan 9, 2011
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London UK
Original Ji,

First of all, please do not address me as "young man." Unless you would like to be called "old man."

Harry is a wise man, and I recognize and respect his wisdom. However, I will not tolerate being put down. There are times for respect, and there are times to stand up for oneself. Also I think this is a cultural issue, because I refuse to respect someone solely because of their age. Age means nothing without wisdom and virtue.

I have asked questions, but unfortunately my last set of questions has gone unanswered.

On the contrary, I think that being spiritual is a part of knowing oneself. You can know how you act in certain situations, but can you really know who you are if you don't meditate and contemplate?

I don't know if I have a warrior spirit, but I am certainly a fighter. I have fought all my life, especially for expressing my beliefs within a community which does not accept deviation. I have lost friends, I have been alienated, I have been cursed and called a devil worshiper, simply because I expressed beliefs different from the accepted Christian understanding. This is a part of why I am feeling so pushed away now.

I have my path. Why would you dissuade me from following that path?

Good night, and I apologize for anything that may seem rude. I am trying to be direct, because it seems like I am not communicating well.

Sir

In whatever capacity you're visiting SPN, you are most welcomed as a guest. Where I come from the first thing we're taught is "respect and dignity" followed by hospitality, etc.It is not cultural but humanitarianly civil.

Go and visit the land of my people, Punjab and you will see how we live. We are simple and not complex. Our language is love and as warriors our fight is with the "self" and not with the world nor with destiny.

Our motto is love n live.

If you feel you have the spirit of a fighter than fight with yourself and not with situation and circumstance. Learn to accommodate fellowmen for their shortfalls.

Take care
 

Original

Writer
SPNer
Jan 9, 2011
1,053
553
66
London UK
Original Ji,

First of all, please do not address me as "young man." Unless you would like to be called "old man."

Harry is a wise man, and I recognize and respect his wisdom. However, I will not tolerate being put down. There are times for respect, and there are times to stand up for oneself. Also I think this is a cultural issue, because I refuse to respect someone solely because of their age. Age means nothing without wisdom and virtue.

I have asked questions, but unfortunately my last set of questions has gone unanswered.

On the contrary, I think that being spiritual is a part of knowing oneself. You can know how you act in certain situations, but can you really know who you are if you don't meditate and contemplate?

I don't know if I have a warrior spirit, but I am certainly a fighter. I have fought all my life, especially for expressing my beliefs within a community which does not accept deviation. I have lost friends, I have been alienated, I have been cursed and called a devil worshiper, simply because I expressed beliefs different from the accepted Christian understanding. This is a part of why I am feeling so pushed away now.

I have my path. Why would you dissuade me from following that path?

Good night, and I apologize for anything that may seem rude. I am trying to be direct, because it seems like I am not communicating well.

Dear Seeker

Further to your spiritual excursion, I write with good intent to steer you in the right direction, in particular, about the "self", the you.

At a basic level if we start of with the self, the you, maybe then we can begin to understand other fundamentals of this beautiful creation. What is it that gives rise to a subjective sense of the self made of matter and energy ?

There are two paths to unravel this mysterious sense of the self and they are; physical and spiritual.

Physical

Scientists explain that the self must be a collective property of the neurons in your brain, which have mostly stayed with you throughout life, and which will cease to exist after you die. This bundle of neurons have made a permanent home within your bodily frame which has given rise to a subjective sense of selfhood and has labelled it self "HFTARASQUE". This HFTARASQUE bundle is unique and cannot occupy another space at the same time (16.04.2015) and therefore can only recall experiences which the bundle has gone through within that HFTarasque frame (body).

Spiritual

Things we can touch have no permanence. There is nothing we can hold on to in this physical world of matter, only by letting go can we truly possess that, which is real. This intuitive sense of self is an effortless and fundamental human experience. But is nothing more than an elaborate illusion. The real self is formless and is without and within - inconceivable. The mind has created this sense of the subjective self - let go and you will begin to feel the real. The real you is "now" - this very moment, and since infinity extends in all directions in space and time you are everywhere.

To get to that level of awareness and understanding takes time, through the processes of evolution and not necessarily meditation and contemplation. Disciplines such as meditation and contemplation have their own functions and place. I will confess however, I started meditating at around 14 because I was a marital arts student. It was part of the art that made no sense to me at the time but over the years I've mastered it to a pitch of perfection with which I enjoy spirituality today.

What myself and Harry was saying, was for you to go out into the good world, boost your external CV to reflect internally later in life - know the creator through creation. In other words, the roller coaster of life will better equip you.

Buddha on his deathbed summoned all his disciples and said, go out into the forest and collect all the fallen leaves of the trees and bring them back to me. All the disciples did accordingly and there lay a mountain of leaves at Buddha's bedside. Pointing at the heap of leves, Buddha said, "see these leaves, this is the amount of knowledge that I have given you. That which remains on the trees is what you must endeavour to seek".

I'll close for now and remember - our primary purpose is to move away from the physical perceptions and conceptions, only then can we experience the "absolute" self - the one without form. But that through the passage of time.

Sikhism is a way of life. It's not an encyclopaedia of life and wasn't intened to address questions as such - to know it you have to live it.


More later - hope this helps !

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Nov 14, 2008
283
419
I find the limitations being put on me, and being pushed away from spirituality, to be degrading.


hi HFTarasque ,
Thats good ,you got it too early , it took me few years to understand that ppl whom i am arguing on this site are pulling me down and further down on spiritual level towards darkness . i feel they are Atheists who claims to be Sikh (i have no issue with this) ,and their aim is to ridicule the ppl with spiritual inclination . its better to avoid this site ,it worked for me .

Namaste !
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,769
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Thats good ,you got it too early , it took me few years to understand that ppl whom i am arguing on this site are pulling me down and further down on spiritual level towards darkness .

I hear this a lot, offensive is probably the wrong word, misunderstood is probably a better word, although, crevice is a brilliant word, although not as good as orifice (name of my first hamster), but anyway, back to the subject, I will happily debate on the subject of Vedic Meditation and how it has infiltrated Sikhism, and that is what this is, debate, no one is right, and no one is wrong, all are free to follow whichever path they wish, the problem is the growing dilution of Sikhism, the growing number of Deras, of false babas, and what concerns me most is the addiction to escapism, the need to 'get away from life' and discover yourself inwards, I wager you have a better idea of who you are by living, not throwing yourself in a cesspit of pleasure, but living, walking the dog, interacting with society, working, helping, growing, dealing with problems, which leads to educating inwards, of finding new material, new concepts, new thoughts, none of which can be achieved by inward meditation, as such provides no new material, in my opinion anyway. Also, are your views so fragile that a bit of debate can pull you down? Our Gurus held firm opinions that could not be brought down by death or torture, are you so precious that you cannot debate?

i feel they are Atheists who claims to be Sikh

This comes from a refusal to accept that Akal Purakh has a beard and sandals? I am not an atheist, but I refuse to accept that the 'God' that most religions accept exists in Sikhism, I don't know anything about God, but I bow down before Akal Purakh. We all bow down in different ways, mine is to see Akal Purakh in every living thing, yes, even those I eat.

and their aim is to ridicule the ppl with spiritual inclination

We are a frank bunch here, there was a time when the following was a good answer

Well, if you have a problem, you must go to Gurdwara and pray, and make offerings, and then do an Akhand Path, and pray a bit more, and repeat the word Waheguru, and focus on Guru Nanaks feet, etc etc.

This just won't do anymore, and it will invite frank discussion, not ridicule, but blunt frank discussion.

its better to avoid this site


I would rather you thought of better arguments, better reasoning, educate us, enlighten us, yes, we ask questions, but answer them!

Namaste !

SAT SRI AKAL......
 

HFTarasque

SPNer
Mar 23, 2015
11
9
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ok, accepted



haha, I do not consider myself particularly wise, after all problems and issues in life are merely material for the next gag! However, whatever I have learned, has been learned from living.



oh your talking to the wrong people, there are many on this forum that would support you to the hilt, we are just expressing our opinions, and creating a dialogue for discussion, as that is how we learn, all of us, especially me, yesterday I learned loads about the SRM, its all good, but we should all be able to take a gentle bit of ribbing, and use humour to get us through. No one is pushing you away, again, we are just stating our experiences, I think Originalji has a similar background to me, I am not sure where Chazji or Luckyji have vanished to, as their input here would probably be useful to you.



Choose your path and live it, that is your right. Just as I and Originalji chose ours, choose yours, and live it!



I dressed as a bear for 3 months, fluffy paws the lot, I am not sure you could experience that simultaneously with spirituality......(in fact there is a clip on youtube of me driving a Range Rover whilst singing 'my way')



accepted!



to be misunderstood by one person is unfortunate, to be misunderstood by two, :)

look, your probably talking to the wrong people, all we are saying is maybe stop being so intense, live a little and live your life through the grace of God.

now come here and give me a hug
Thank you very much for the kind response. I think the fact that you have responded so peacefully shows some wisdom on your part, maybe wisdom that I lack. You can have a hug :)

I think we do come from different backgrounds, and it can be very difficult to recognize that one person's history can be very different from another. I will try to understand yours, if you will try to understand mine.

Sir

In whatever capacity you're visiting SPN, you are most welcomed as a guest. Where I come from the first thing we're taught is "respect and dignity" followed by hospitality, etc.It is not cultural but humanitarianly civil.

Go and visit the land of my people, Punjab and you will see how we live. We are simple and not complex. Our language is love and as warriors our fight is with the "self" and not with the world nor with destiny.

Our motto is love n live.

If you feel you have the spirit of a fighter than fight with yourself and not with situation and circumstance. Learn to accommodate fellowmen for their shortfalls.

Take care
I would agree that respect should be given to everyone, even those who act despicably towards you, or may try to kill you. That doesn't mean you need to be a pushover, or that you need to bow down to others. I simply do not wish to respect people older than me for the sole reason that they are older than me, and to bow down to their wishes. I meant no disrespect, and I apologize for the rudeness in my previous posts.

Perhaps I have misunderstood your and Harry's points. My understanding was that you were saying that spirituality is worthless if you are young, and you need life experience to have any sort of meaning. That is what I was fighting so strongly against. I see now you are simply saying that experience further enhances spirituality, and that I shouldn't get so caught up in spirituality that I lose out on living. If I am understanding your message correctly, then with that, I do completely agree. It was never my intent to become a recluse, just as it was never my intent to forsake spirituality and become some kind of rebel.

I look forward to what more you have to say.

As to the questions about my path, I'm sorry, but I have to go right now and that question will require some thought to answer. I will return to it later.
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,769
8,194
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Perhaps I have misunderstood your and Harry's points. My understanding was that you were saying that spirituality is worthless if you are young, and you need life experience to have any sort of meaning. That is what I was fighting so strongly against. I see now you are simply saying that experience further enhances spirituality, and that I shouldn't get so caught up in spirituality that I lose out on living. If I am understanding your message correctly, then with that, I do completely agree. It was never my intent to become a recluse, just as it was never my intent to forsake spirituality and become some kind of rebel.

bingo!
 
Nov 14, 2008
283
419
the problem is the growing dilution of Sikhism
So harry ji ,your version of Sikhi is pure and you are custodian of Sikhi ?
what concerns me most is the addiction to escapism, the need to 'get away from life' and discover yourself inwards, I wager you have a better idea of who you are by living, not throwing yourself in a cesspit of pleasure, but living, walking the dog, interacting with society, working, helping, growing, dealing with problems, which leads to educating inwards, of finding new material, new concepts, new thoughts, none of which can be achieved by inward meditation, as such provides no new material, in my opinion anyway.
may be some are finding new concepts ,new thoughts by inward meditation ,why it concern you ?


Also, are your views so fragile that a bit of debate can pull you down? Our Gurus held firm opinions that could not be brought down by death or torture, are you so precious that you cannot debate?

ya such debates leaves me dry ,empty , i feel there is no room for debate in spirituality if some agrees with you then its ok , if someone is making fun of your feeling even then its Ok .it reminds me of a shabad by Guru Sahib .

Raag Gond, The Word Of The Devotees.

Kabeer Jee, First House:

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:


When you meet a Saint, talk to him and listen.

Meeting with an unsaintly person, just remain silent. ||1||

O father, if I speak, what words should I utter?

Speak such words, by which you may remain absorbed in the Name of the Lord. ||1||Pause||

Speaking with the Saints, one becomes generous.

To speak with a fool is to babble uselessly. ||2||

By speaking and only speaking, corruption only increases.

If I do not speak, what can the poor wretch do? ||3||

Says Kabeer, the empty pitcher makes noise,

but that which is full makes no sound. ||4||1||



This comes from a refusal to accept that Akal Purakh has a beard and sandals?
thats your assumption (baseless)


Well, if you have a problem, you must go to Gurdwara and pray, and make offerings, and then do an Akhand Path, and pray a bit more, and repeat the word Waheguru, and focus on Guru Nanaks feet, etc etc.
ya thats definitely better than criticizing /bashing others on Internet .

Waheguru ji ki fateh
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,769
8,194
55
So harry ji ,your version of Sikhi is pure and you are custodian of Sikhi ?

this was written in regard to Deras and Babas, are you a fan of Deras and Babas?

may be some are finding new concepts ,new thoughts by inward meditation ,why it concern you ?

I do not think it is particularly Sikhi, if you do, thats fine too, that is why this is called a forum, where people exchange views, debate, learn. This is now the second time in 2 days I am having to state that my opinions are my own, is it not obvious? If I asked each person I respond to why it concerns them, we would not get much done in the way of debate now would we? I have never ever said my opinion is word, or definitive, it is just my opinion.

ya such debates leaves me dry ,empty , i feel there is no room for debate in spirituality if some agrees with you then its ok , if someone is making fun of your feeling even then its Ok .it reminds me of a shabad by Guru Sahib .

If I have ever made fun of your feelings I am sorry.

Raag Gond, The Word Of The Devotees.

Kabeer Jee, First House:

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:


When you meet a Saint, talk to him and listen.

Meeting with an unsaintly person, just remain silent. ||1||

O father, if I speak, what words should I utter?

Speak such words, by which you may remain absorbed in the Name of the Lord. ||1||Pause||

Speaking with the Saints, one becomes generous.

To speak with a fool is to babble uselessly. ||2||

By speaking and only speaking, corruption only increases.

If I do not speak, what can the poor wretch do? ||3||

Says Kabeer, the empty pitcher makes noise,

but that which is full makes no sound. ||4||1||

yet it is ok to call me a fool and an unsaintly person? , I happen to agree with you, I am a fool and I am unsaintly, do you think Babas are saintly? do you think those that run Deras are saintly? just curious...

ya thats definitely better than criticizing /bashing others on Internet .

actually I would like to see more of the meditation lobby as writers and content masters.......
 

JourneyOflife

Writer
SPNer
Apr 8, 2015
49
71
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Hello everyone, I have received some very good answers to these questions on another forum and they recommended that I come here for a better discussion.

As the title of the thread suggests, I am currently exploring Sikhi as well as other religious beliefs (including Buddhism and Radha Soami, though I have issues with following a human master). I come from a Christian background, but I would not describe my beliefs as being particularly Christian, as I believe in an all-pervading God who is impersonal, and I believe in systems such as reincarnation and karma. So, I have many questions about Sikhi as I am on my search, and I was hoping that you all might be able to answer some questions for me. None of these questions are meant to challenge your beliefs at all, but merely to express my own doubts and challenges that I face in my search.

I'm willing to have a deeper discussion on any of the points I mention below. For the sake of brevity, I will keep this reply short and to the point. Let me know if you would like to discuss anything further, are unsure, would like clarification or more info.

1. Buddhism and Sikhism I think are largely similar, but they have a major difference that I find hard to reconcile. Buddhism (at least Theravadan and Zen) teaches that the existence of God can't be answered for sure, and the same can be said for the soul. Instead the Buddha says that we should forget such questions, and instead focus on achieving Nirvana, as these questions impede our spiritual growth. Sikhi (as far as I am aware) states that our ultimate purpose is to merge with God, and reach Sach Khand. The problem is, I can see and understand the reasoning behind both of these positions, and I have a really hard time figuring out what to believe on this issue. How can I resolve this conflict?

I don't think you can resolve this conflict through discussion or pondering. I mean, the Sikh Gurus didn't even want you to "believe" in what they were saying. They wanted you to experience Waheguru for yourself. Experiencing Waheguru really has nothing to do with your beliefs on the afterlife. In the Guru Granth Sahib you have writers like Baba Farid who lean towards a Sufi understanding of the afterlife. Then you have others like Naam Dev who may lean towards a Bhakti understanding. But if you read their writing you'll find that this literally has nothing to do with them finding Sach Khand/Nirvana/Enlightenment, or whatever you wanna call it. Believing in a specific version of the afterlife isn't going to help you along the Path. That is not the message of Sikhi, and it isn't the emssage of Buddhism either.

2. Scriptures are obviously very important to Sikhs, as the SGGSJ forms the foundation for Sikhi. My question regarding this is, why is reading the Bani repeatedly so important? Is kirtan more beneficial than to practice simran and meditation on the atman inside? I can understand reading it for understanding, and of course reading scriptures at different times in our lives, we will receive different lessons. But is inward meditation not more valuable, provided it is done with a proper spiritual understanding?

It's all up to you. Sikhi is not about imposing rules and regulations and spoon-feeding you along the entire way, you are required to use your own intuition and understand for yourself what works for you and what doesn't. The wisdom and lessons in the Bani are something every Sikh should aspire to implement in their own lives. But I don't think parroting the Bani without actually understanding what's being said will help you out much. Blind recitation is responsible for a lot of the problems in the Panth today.

3. As I am young and come from the West (I am only 18), I have certain Western values which I find hard to reconcile with both Sikhism and Buddhism, even though I may find the religion very appealing. Specifically, I feel very strongly about gender equality, and that differences between men and women are almost entirely (if not entirely) cultural rather than biological or spiritual in nature. This means that I am a strong advocate of homosexual rights, gay marriage, and transgender rights. I realize that Sikhi has done a lot to stand up for many of these things, but at the same time, I see that homosexuals are not allowed to be married with the Anand Karaj. As a Westerner, this seems to be the same religious dogmatism that I tried to escape when I left Christianity, but maybe I am misunderstanding it.

You are confusing the Spiritual Message of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib with the Political nature of the Sikh Rehat Maryada. The SGGS ji says absolutely nothing about homosexuality and transgender. The ruling against homosexuals being married through Anand Karaj has nothing to do with the actual spiritual teachings of the Sikh Gurus. It is a political decision taken by the leaders in the Akal Takht. It is not an absolute decision and can be changed if needed. This literally has nothing to do with the SGGS.


4. Marriages. As far as I understand, Sikhs do not condone love marriages, and instead practice arranged marriages. What is the harm in a love marriage, or in dating? Again I realize I come from a Western perspective, but I fail to see how these things are harmful to your spirituality. If all of your energy is focused on finding a partner, or on sexual promiscuity, or the like, I can definitely understand it. Also, why can an inter-faith marriage not be done with the Anand Karaj? If a Sikh wants to marry a non-Sikh, isn't that their choice? And if they want to do the marriage the Sikh way, is that not displaying the proper respect to Sikhi? For a long time, I dated a Muslim girl and we planned to be married. Sadly that didn't happen, but I can't imagine missing out on someone who may be the love of my life, because I am limited to only marrying someone of my religion.

Again, nothing in SGGS ji says anything about how a Sikh couple should meet and decide to get married, whether they should do a "love marriage" or an arranged marriage. You are confusing Sikhi with Punjabi culture. Punjabi culture is what promotes arranged marriage (although this is now also changing very quickly), Sikhi literally says nothing about it.

The issue is that historically, Rehat rulings (including who you could and couldn't marry) only ever applied to the Khalsa, the Baptized Order of Sikhs. Sikhs who were not initiated into the Khalsa were not bound by these Rehats and could theoretically marry whoever they wished. The current Rehat we have has, for a number of socio-political reasons back in the late 19th/early 20th centuries, redefined 'Sikh' to mean 'Khalsa'. Which is why there is some muddiness and non-Baptized Sikhs being bound to these same regulations as well. Once again, this literally has nothing to do with the SGGS.

In fact, the Anand Karaj ceremony wasn't even around until about the end of the 20th century, which is when it was created to combat the high number of Sikhs engaging in Brahmanical marriage rites. I think ideally, Sikh marriages don't need to be much more than an Ardas performed by the couple before the Guru, in which they pledge to stand by each other in all times and strive to be the best Sikhs they can possibly be. And there's nothing stopping you from doing that.

At the same time, I can't understand why someone who wishes to walk the Path of the Guru would not want a partner with who they can share every step of that special journey. I am not an Amritdhari so technically the Rehat doesn't apply to me (if we go with the historic understanding of Rehats), I could marry a non-Sikh by having a court marriage, but I won't because I don't see any benefit to it. I mean it's fine if someone else does, I'm not saying it makes someone a bad person, but I want my partner to be Sikh so we can walk this Path together and support each other at every stage. Even without the Rehat, I doubt I'd marry a non-Sikh.


5. Again as far as I understand, Guru Nanak Ji shunned religious labels. He stated "There is no Hindu, there is no Muslim." So therefore, why have his teachings started a religion? This is something I haven't been able to find much discussion about, and I am quite curious about it. Has Sikhism fallen prey to the same dogmatism that he taught against?

Guru Nanak didn't 'shun' religious labels, he taught that they weren't important to Waheguru. What you choose to call yourself isn't as important as how you live, because anybody anywhere can have a connection with the Creator. Muslims can, Hindus can, Christians can, Jews can, Buddhists can, and Sikhs can.

Historically though, I think it's pretty obvious that when he began to spread his message in 1499, he did intend to create a separate path, distinct from all the others in the world. And this Path was crystallized 10 generations and 200 years later on Vaisakhi 1699, when Guru Gobind Singh initiated the Khalsa Panth. We can have a discussion on this if you like.


6. The SGGSJ was named as the last Guru for the Sikhs. Does this mean there will never be another Guru? What about when we move out of Kal Yug and into the next age, will there be another succession of Gurus?

No, there will never be another Guru. I think Sikhi teaches people to let go of these dark age, golden age etc. ideas, because the age is whatever we define it to be. If we live truthfully, then the age is golden. If we live horribly, then the age is dark. My grandmother has experienced many different "ages" throughout her long life.

People today complain about it being Kal Yug. Why? Because people are supposedly becoming more insolent and ignorant. But literally every generation has said that about the next. My mother complains about my behavior and how kids are so bad these days, but when I talked to my grandma, she said she used to have the same complaints about my mother lol. The world today is actually a much better place than it ever has been in the past. People live longer, people are healthier, there is more freedom to live your life how you want, most of us in places like the west especially don't have to worry about getting clean water or food for our families, and so forth. As far back as I have researched, people have been complaining about how we are living in "the dark ages". Instead of complaining about how the world is so horrible, Sikhi teaches us to discard these superstitious notions and work to make real change. We can make the world the golden age whenever we want.
 
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JourneyOflife

Writer
SPNer
Apr 8, 2015
49
71
34
JourneyOflife ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please accept my gratitude for very thoughtful posts of yours in many threads. I would urge you to start topics/threads which you feel are important for the Sikh generation of today, so all of us can learn from it.

Your input is vital for the SPN members.

Thanks & regards
Tejwant Singh

Thank you for the kind words, Tejwant ji. I will do my best to share wherever I feel I can offer useful input! I can already think of one topic I'd like to discuss in a separate thread, I'll start it as soon as I have enough time to put the content together and be free to carry on with the discussion :)
 
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