Controversial Raagmala - Is It Really Part Of Gurbani?

[Ishna]

Original J

Question: Did Guru Gobind Singh confer Guruship upon SGGSJ [1430 pages] or not ?

That depends which bir he conferred it to, since some have Raag mala and others don't.

Question: are you a disciple and is SGGSJ your guru ? If affirmative then believe in "shabd" [guru] and not configuration.

Obviously a disciple of Guru Sahib. What I'm learning from Guru Sahib is a simple and straightforward lifestyle. I'm not so sure about the mystical element, and even less sold on a composition that isn't even signed like the rest of the contents of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj.

 

[Original]

all above is not understood to me and is beyond my thinking. but i will put one poem which i wrote today about concept i follow.
ਗੁਰੂਦੁਆਰ

ਗੁਰੂਦੁਆਰ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਪਾਠਸਾਲ, ਗਿਆਨੀ ਵਿਖਿਆਤਾ
,ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੱਚਾ ਪਾਤਸਾਹ, ਪੜ੍ਹ ਸੁਣ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦ ਪਛਾਤਾ
ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦ, ਹਰਿ ਆਪ ਧਿਆਇਆ, ਬਾਵਨ ਜੁਗ ਬੈਠ ਹਨ੍ਹੇਰੇ, ਧਿਆਇ ਜ਼ਾਹਰ ਹੋਇ ਆਇਆ
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਿਧ ਜਾਣੈ, ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਵਚੋਲਾ ਤਾ ਕਾ,
ਹਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਇ, ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਧਿਆਇ, ਸੱਚਾ ਬਿਰਦ ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੈ ਸਿੱਖਨ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਜਪਾਇ
ਆਪ ਜਪੈ ਨਾਮ ਨਿੱਤ, ਸਿੱਖਨ ਸੇਵਣ ਨਾਮ ਜਪਾਤਾ
ਰੱਬ ਇੱਕ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਰਗ ਇੱਕ, ਸਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਜਾਣੈ, ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਪਵਿੱਤ ਸੱਚ ਸੁੱਚ, ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਵਖਾਣੈ
ਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਝੋਂ ਗਤਿ ਨਹੀਂ, ਗੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਕਾ ਦਾਤਾ,
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਰੁੱਖ ਗੁਰ ਪਾਰਜਾਤ, ਸਾ ਸੱਚੇ ਫਲ ਲਾਵੈ, ਚਿੱਤ ਲਾਇ ਸਬਦ ਕਮਾਇ, ਗੁਰੂ ਚਿੱਤ ਵਸ ਜਾਵੈ,
ਚਿੱਤ ਲਾਇ ਸਬਦ ਕਮਾਇ, ਨਿਰਭੌ ਪੁਰਖ ਵਿਧਾਤਾ
ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਲਿਆਗਰ, ਮਹਿਕ ਭਰੇ ਸੁਖ ਸਾਗਰ, ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਇ ਚਿੱਤ ਲਾਇ, ਕਰ ਕੈ ਚਿੱਤ ਇਕਾਗਰ
ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਹਰਿ ਮਨ ਵਸੈ, ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਾਸਾ
ਗੁਰ ਪਾਰਸ ਮਲ ਹਰਨ, ਸਾ ਸੰਗ ਲੋਹ ਬਣੈ ਸਵਰਨ, ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਵਣ, ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦ ਜੀ ਚਿੱਤ ਧਰਨ
ਚਿੱਤ ਲਾਇ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਧਿਆਇ, ਹਰਿ ਮਾਰਗ ਜਾਤਾ
ਚੰਦ ਚਕੋਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤ ਜਿਉਂ, ਸਾਈ ਸੇਵਕ ਗੁਰੂ ਪ੍ਰੀਤ, ਆਪ ਮਰੈ ਮਨ ਮਾਰ, ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਕ ਹੋਇ ਮੀਤ
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੰਗ ਹਰਿ ਸੰਗਤ, ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਸੰਗ ਮਨ ਰਾਤਾ
ਘਨ ਘੋਰ ਬੱਦਲ ਛਾਏ, ਚਾਤ੍ਰਿਕ ਚਿਰਤ ਕੁਰਲਾਏ, ਪਾਵੈ ਜੋ ਕਰਮਾਂ ਲਿਖਿਆ, ਮੁੱਖ ਇਕ ਬੂੰਦ ਨ ਪਾਏ
ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਫਲ ਲਾਵੈ, ਖਾਇ ਭੁੰਚੈ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਤਾ
ਗੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਵਕਾਸ ਵਖਾਵੈ, ਸੇਵਕ ਸਾ ਮਾਰਗ ਜਾਵੈ, ਮਾਰਗ ਧਾਵੈ ਚਿੱਤ ਲਾਵੈ, ਜੋ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਸਾ ਫਲ ਪਾਵੈ
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਗਾਵੈ ਸਿੱਖ ਕਮਾਵੈ, ਗੁਰੂ ਚਰਨ ਧਰ ਮਾਥਾ
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਰਗ ਜਾਣੈ, ਸਿੱਖਨ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਵਖਾਣੈ, ਸਿੱਖ ਸਖਾ ਸਾ ਮਾਰਗ ਪਾਵੈ, ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਰਣ ਸਮਾਣੈ
ਬੈਂਸ ਗੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭੇਦ ਨਹਿੰ, ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਵਿਧਾਤਾ

Swarn Ji

I'm sorry you couldn't make sense of what I was trying to illustrate above, I am nevertheless, wholly solely on the same wavelength as you re Raagmala. Besides, a gurusikh is given a shabd [nam] and that shabd in its entirety is what ferries the adept across the sea of life, notwithstanding, the quizitive nature of the mind [manmukh].

The message depicted in your poem above is "beautiful" and is beyond appreciation. I love it.

Satgur Nanak pargatiya meeti dhund jug chan'nan hoya. The beauty of satgur you have poetically captured is what Sikhi is - thank you !

 

[Original]

That depends which bir he conferred it to

...so for you, it's either A or B, correct ? Let me get this right, you base your belief upon the "granth" Guru Gobind Singh conferred guruship upon ? In other words, conditional ?

Obviously a disciple of Guru Sahib.

...what guru sahib ? Have you taken nam dhan ?

What I'm learning from Guru Sahib is a simple and straightforward lifestyle.

..cultures n environments define n shape lifestyles, Guru is God, which falls outside the ambit of ethical and social reasoning. That is to say, alcoholics n drug addicts can too have communion with God despite their chosen lifestyles. It is a question of "belief" and not lifestyle per se.

I'm not so sure about the mystical element,

...neither was Nanak before his experience at Sultanpur Lodhi !

and even less sold on a composition that isn't even signed like the rest of the contents of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj.

...what came first, the written or the spoken word [shabd] ? Before the invention of modern writting satnam waheguru or equivalent were passed on from father to son orally. Our forefathers believed in the "word" [shabd, God] and not "words". The source as you know is Ik On Kar - Gurbani flows from it and it is your belief in the "sound" and not the "sight" of Ik On Kar, literally speaking, although they are both ONE.

 

[Ishna]

...so for you, it's either A or B, correct ? Let me get this right, you base your belief upon the "granth" Guru Gobind Singh conferred guruship upon ? In other words, conditional ?

What is the alternative?

...what guru sahib ? Have you taken nam dhan ?

... Prabh is my Guru. Who is yours?

Naam dhan - is that another term for khande di pahul? If so, no, I haven't. You're gonna love the reason why not.

..cultures n environments define n shape lifestyles, Guru is God, which falls outside the ambit of ethical and social reasoning. That is to say, alcoholics n drug addicts can too have communion with God despite their chosen lifestyles. It is a question of "belief" and not lifestyle per se.

The Truth is high, but higher still is Truthful living.

...neither was Nanak before his experience at Sultanpur Lodhi !

I'll look that one up.

...what came first, the written or the spoken word [shabd] ? Before the invention of modern writting satnam waheguru or equivalent were passed on from father to son orally. Our forefathers believed in the "word" [shabd, God] and not "words". The source as you know is Ik On Kar - Gurbani flows from it and it is your belief in the "sound" and not the "sight" of Ik On Kar, literally speaking, although they are both ONE.

Perhaps the problem is that I'm a woman?

Either way, not sure how this relates back to raag mala.

 

[Ishna]

Wait, by Sultapur Lodhi you mean when Guru Nanak went into the river? Ok... we an only speculate what happened there. Or pick a sakhi, any sakhi.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Ishna Ji, 'Mystical' is just a word to describe something we have yet to understand. Some of us have had glimpses... Since age 8 I have had out-of-body experiences. Yes, they were real. Don't ask me to explain how I know... it falls in that understanding vs believeing range. If you ever experience it, you will just know. Also, while in that state, I experienced what anhad naad is. The unstruck sound... the base fequency if you will. Closest I can compare it to, is a recording Nasa did of all the radiowaves etc coming from planets and put it into an audible track you can listen to. It sounded like ringing, but like a culmination of ALL sound. If you start trying to pick out different sounds, you will start to realize that it's ALL sounds put together. Gave me shivers to hear the Nasa recording and I will try to find it for you.
For me, what people call the 'mystical' is more tangible than this reality made up of electromagnetic forces, electrons popping into and out of existence - seemingly by nothing more than conscious observation.
When I took Amrit also, 'something' happened which I can not explain.

 

[swarn bains]

bhen jee are u 81 year old. that is great. i thought i might be the oldest on this sight but not. congratulations


by the way where did the word waheguru came from for sikh religion

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

sorry i was wrong. i saw 8 ! and thought it was 81. that means i might be the oldest person on this site. will see. it appears that the raag maala is taking a frequency turn. frequency is a vibration of eather. that vibration produces sound also depending the audibility of the ear. i have studies electronic quite a while, but neither i thought the frequency can create Godliness nor mental stability. mental stability is the first criteria towards divine knowledge. how can vibration create something which does not vibrate.
where does waheguru come from in sikh religion

Waheguru Ji doesn't 'come from' anything. Neither was God created, or will ever cease to exist. Waheguru just 'is'. Mool Mantar tells us this quite plainly.

Gurbani says that creation is WITHIN the Creator and that the Creator IS the creation. How can this be? How can a FORM arise from FORMLESS? How can the Sargun form arise from Nirgun formless? How can something formless existing outside of space and time, still be able to create having only itself to create with? The answer MUST be pure consciousness. Even our consciousness is impossible to quantify as taking up space, consciousness is effectively just frequency (measured as brainwaves). How can consciousness create using only itself? Easy! Because the creation too is just frequency! We posses the SAME creative potential every time we evoke thought and a new idea is born!

You say 'frequency' can not create Godliness or mental stability, however what you need to realize that 'mind' itself is actually just frequency. So is your body. So is the ENTIRE physical reality as you know it. They are all just differing emenations of the same ONE thing. That ONE thing is pure conscious creative energy which by it's very nature IS frequency / vibration. So your mind very much can be affected by frequency, and since different states of mind can be linked to different brainwave states, measureable on an EEG, yes frequency very much has a link to mental stability and as you call it 'godliness'. Lower brainwave frequencies are linked to sleep / meditation etc. And higher are linked to consciousness. However there is evidence that you can be simultaneously showing delta waves for example (deep sleep) but also beta (highly conscious) a state known as superconscious. In this state, the physical is less realized, but the mind is hyper acute. This allows people to experience things not normally perceived. (opening of dasam dwar?)

gurbani tells us:
Page 903, Line 18
ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਧੁਨਿ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਜਾਗੀ ॥
सुरति सबदु धुनि अंतरि जागी ॥
Suraṯ sabaḏ ḏẖun anṯar jāgī.
Awareness of the vibration of the Word of the Shabad has been awakened deep within.

Actually, I see US each as a radio antenna... and reality as we experience it is but one of MANY radio stations. We are receiving all the frequencies all at once, but only TUNED into this one usually. However some (and including my experiences when I was younger) have managed to somehow move the radio dial and tune off this reality for a bit. The anhad naad, I believe is the culmination of ALL frequencies being received at once - or the base reality - Waheguru - or if you will Consciousness. And there is only ONE consciousness in existence. Consciousness IS the constant at the base of everything.

 

[swarn bains]

sorry madam and sir. my level of thinking is not that high. please forgive me. this is beyond me.

 

[swarn bains]

word waheguru has been mixed with higher thinking but i meant why do sikhs say waheguru instead of ram or allah or God
how many writers wrote sggs?

 

[Original]

What is the alternative?

..unconditional ! Like a mother loves her child so should you attach value to the core of your belief, say for example, Waheguru. Where it comes from and how it got there isn't a matter of debate but of belief. And, it is this belief that will begin to manifest and the "word", once accepted religiously will start to sprout spiritually.

... Prabh is my Guru. Who is yours?

....mine is "shabd" guru, that is, waheguru. Prabh n Guru are synonymous, meaning, one and the same.

Naam dhan - is that another term for khande di pahul?

...nam dhan means having a spiritual name. For example, Ishna is the name of the body on this physical plane, what of the name of Ishna's soul, how will she recognize herself at the time of the death of the body ? Sikh doctrinal says spiritual name of the soul [nam dhan] is a must so that you don't come back into the cycle of the 84 [meaning, reincarnation]. Nam Dhan could be had from any satguru, say for example, a baptised christian, a practicing monk or a muslem. Similarly, within the Indian diaspora many satguru's are found and it is the "concept" rather than the practice for spiritual heights that a guru is a must. For Sikhs, the satguru is "satnam waheguru".

The Truth is high, but higher still is Truthful living.

...the truth is satnam and you have to meet it, out of time n space. What Nanak experienced at Sultanpur Lodhi was such a meeting and you don't rely on Sakhi's for that kind of information but dig deep within Gurbani. For example, Anand Sahib ! What do you think Guru Amardas Ji is expressing, something within time n space or beyond ? What do you think he is referring to on page 124 of SGGSJ, the "anhad shabd" ?

I'll look that one up

..don't look up, but look within and ask yourself, how a single soul [Nanak] revolutionised the concept of God and gave the world shabd guru after this ONE experience ?

Perhaps the problem is that I'm a woman?

..I see no problem ! You're a beautiful soul en route to a meeting with your maker. And, in fact, a chosen one, for look how much time you spend connected with the "word". When I was your age I was too busy looking good and enjoying to the max a life full of fun n games. You are truly a devout Sikh [student].

Either way, not sure how this relates back to raag mala.

....raag mala or no raag mala, does it matter. Instead, look for your wings - butterfly ! By that I mean we are spiritual beings having a human experience and have forgotten to fly. Harkiran Ji has done a beautiful job by breaking it down and making it easy to understand.

Take care - Goodnight n Godbless !

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

I promised the link to the sounds from space... these sounds are very very similar to what I heard ---- how I can describe what I believe was anhad naad... Its like a culmination of all sound, every note, put together, in some cosmic symphony. The Earth sound is closest... listen closely it sounds like a choir in harmony. It's hard to not think of the Universe as simply frequency when you hear these.

 

[Original]

I promised the link to the sounds from space... these sounds are very very similar to what I heard ---- how I can describe what I believe was anhad naad... Its like a culmination of all sound, every note, put together, in some cosmic symphony. The Earth sound is closest... listen closely it sounds like a choir in harmony. It's hard to not think of the Universe as simply frequency when you hear these.

Harkiran Ji - thank you !

Whilst studying Greek philosophy many many years ago I came across this famous maxim, "The Music of the Spheres" and today, you've actually laid it bare - beautiful. Sounds too good and moreover, you've nipped it in the bud, thus, "cosmic symphony".

Physics defines everything in existence as either matter or engergy [E=MC²], matter being the tangible part that we can see, touch, smell, etc and energy being the intangible part that moves matter. It was Albert Einstein who summed it something like this, 'matter can be changed into energy and energy can be changed into matter, so in essence, they are the same thing in a different form'. Gur Ghar translates this in a beautiful way, that is, the human you is inseparable from the patterns of intelligence that permeates every fibre of creation. You are everywhere and nowhere. Humans are prisoners of their intellect, which mistakes the shadows for reality. The pure consciousness [khalsa] state, which you mention is more commonly referred to as the "unified field" [what science is searching for because at present general theory of relativity n quantum mechanics are incompatiable and cannot project true reality], that is, non-material field of intelligence.

The mystics have captured the music of the spheres as a small and almost imperceptable stirrings in the human heart, which becomes stronger and louder. For each thing that the human begins to love will it begin to hear its melody within its breast [jin prem kiya tin he prabh pi'oh, Guru Gobind]. The more the human loves the more will it experience a kind of inner silence, an inner peace. This inner silence - this stillness within - is the cauldron of unborn potential. It is a state say, potential to actual to eternal, the Eternal Now, the pregnant moment, the formless void, waiting for the the breath of love to sing out the song of creation, the face of God within your very heart.....the music of the spheres is you, hence the reason Gur Ghar wants you the manmukh to hear the gurmukh anhad shabd.

Your experiences are beautiful and now that you have nam dhan you've exited the wheel of 84 and are an eternal being. The mystical experiences transcends time n space and cannot really be captured within any means available - they remain forever "moments". Bhagat Kabir sums it up nicely on page 340 - "...no alphabet can describe the ONE for it is ineffable". Guru Nanak conceived it beautifully as a ritrual of the union between atma and parmatma when the body is laid to rest [cremeated, the recitation of kirtan sohila].

ਜਿਸਹਿ ਜਗਾਇ ਪੀਆਵੈ ਇਹੁ ਰਸੁ ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਤਿਨਿ ਜਾਨੀ
Guru Arjun in Kirtan Sohila says above, he/she who He wakes and maketh drink the ambrosial nectar is revealed the story of creation.

Take care

 

[swarn bains]

you guys run sikh philosophy network and yet you do not know where the word waheguru comes from. it points out that all here are argumental only. none of you have read sggs seriously
sikh slogan
first sat kartar, 2nd pery paina, 3rd sat sari akal. 4th waheguru jee ka khalsa waheguru jee kee fateh.
but none of know ever thought that word waheguru is in sggs and some one wrote it and none of you know how and why sikhs adopted this slogan.
and yet no one has said how many writers bani is in sggs.
i guess you will know if u read sggs. if not then run the sikh philosophy network with a claim that raag maala is not gurbani as well. s s a specially to those who are stuck on sound system.. it is a new religion. i have Quaran, i read bible, bhagwat geeta and ramaayan. i did not find those blue frequency waves we see the sky with and the nasa sound. that means it is a new type of computer age religion.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Swarn Ji it is not new concept. I have read Gurbani and I have seen and taken in the MANY referecnes to a primal or 'unstruck' sound or vibration that is referenced over and over in relation to Creation.

Page 13, Line 3
ਅਨਹਤਾ ਸਬਦ ਵਾਜੰਤ ਭੇਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Anhaṯā sabaḏ vājanṯ bẖerī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
The Unstruck Sound-current of the Shabad is the vibration of the temple drums. ||1||Pause||

Page 6, Line 5
ਵਾਜੇ ਨਾਦ ਅਨੇਕ ਅਸੰਖਾ ਕੇਤੇ ਵਾਵਣਹਾਰੇ ॥
वाजे नाद अनेक असंखा केते वावणहारे ॥
vāje nāḏ anek asankẖā keṯe vāvaṇhāre.
The Sound-current of the Naad vibrates there, and countless musicians play on all sorts of instruments there

Page 118, Line 19
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਿਉ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਏ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਬਦਿ ਵਜਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੫॥
Amriṯ baṇī si▫o cẖiṯ lā▫e amriṯ sabaḏ vajāvaṇi▫ā. ||5||
Those who focus their consciousness on the Ambrosial Bani of the Word, hear the vibrations of the Ambrosial Word of the Shabad. ||5||

Page 2, Line 8
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥
Gurmukẖ nāḏaʼn gurmukẖ veḏaʼn gurmukẖ rahi▫ā samā▫ī.
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.
Page 3, Line 16
ਕੀਤਾ ਪਸਾਉ ਏਕੋ ਕਵਾਉ ॥
Kīṯā pasā▫o eko kavā▫o.
You created the vast expanse of the Universe with One Word! (Word = sound = frequency)

Page 7, Line 19
ਤਿਥੈ ਨਾਦ ਬਿਨੋਦ ਕੋਡ ਅਨੰਦੁ ॥
Ŧithai nāḏ binoḏ kod anand.
The Sound-current of the Naad vibrates there, amidst the sounds and the sights of bliss.

These are just SOME examples.... and Gurbani also recognizes the intrinsic link between consciousness, energy and matter.. that they are in fact the same thing:

Page 21, Line 4
ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲੁ ॥
Jah ḏekẖā ṯah rav rahe siv sakṯī kā mel.
Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of consciousness and matter.
Page 1027, Line 1
ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸਾ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
Siv sakṯī gẖar vāsā pā▫i▫ā.
He came to dwell in the home of the Shiva and Shakti, energy and matter.

Gurbani is actually VERY scientific given that these concepts were not known until centuries later!

 

[Original]

Gurbani is actually VERY scientific

...too scientific, look here - ਪਹਿਲਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ਹੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ ॥ 472 SGGSJ II Translation: first water is alive with which other life forms are born. Compare this to Charles Darwin's theory of evolution - ditto. And, in fact from an ideological perspective [Hinduism] Vishnu first appeared in water as a fish and thereafter followed by incarnations etc...Point in corroboration is that Sikhism is a Science.

Your write-up above is bang-on !

 

[Original]

you guys run sikh philosophy network and yet you do not know where the word waheguru comes from. it points out that all here are argumental only. none of you have read sggs seriously
sikh slogan
first sat kartar, 2nd pery paina, 3rd sat sari akal. 4th waheguru jee ka khalsa waheguru jee kee fateh.
but none of know ever thought that word waheguru is in sggs and some one wrote it and none of you know how and why sikhs adopted this slogan.
and yet no one has said how many writers bani is in sggs.
i guess you will know if u read sggs. if not then run the sikh philosophy network with a claim that raag maala is not gurbani as well. s s a specially to those who are stuck on sound system.. it is a new religion. i have Quaran, i read bible, bhagwat geeta and ramaayan. i did not find those blue frequency waves we see the sky with and the nasa sound. that means it is a new type of computer age religion.

....easy there bro ! Man of your calibre doesn't stoop to that level where you start affine n blind'n coz response in time hasn't been made; besides, your writing reflects your wisdom as a highly knowledgeable man albeit temperamental. Try this one....jin prem kiyo tin he prabh pi'o, maybe then, you'll hear the celestial sound [anhad shabd].

As regards waheguru, I have no evidence to support that Guru Nanak coined it. Furthermore, no evidence is to hand to suggest any of the Guru's put it in writing since this was considered to be mantra, which is orally communicated. It was the Bhatts that brought it about within the ambit of Gurbani.The widely held perception is that when Nanak was summoned by Akal Purakh [dargah parmeshar ki, Sultanpur Lodhi] he was given nam, that is, Waheguru [ਵ =Vishnu, ਹ=hari, ਗ=govind and ਰ=ram], these first four acronym of God's incarnate names are the first [wahe] of the two syllables [guru], meaning God.

Many thanks !

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

...too scientific, look here - ਪਹਿਲਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ਹੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ ॥ 472 SGGSJ II Translation: first water is alive with which other life forms are born. Compare this to Charles Darwin's theory of evolution - ditto. And, in fact from an ideological perspective [Hinduism] Vishnu first appeared in water as a fish and thereafter followed by incarnations etc...Point in corroboration is that Sikhism is a Science.

Your write-up above is bang-on !

This is not only describing water itself but the process by which creation evolved (resulting in progressively higher consciousness) It's the act of the ONE Creator, awakening within its own creation.
I dont usually like comparing other philosophies but the concept in some western mystery traditions explain it as such.

Reality is the act of the one creator, becoming self aware, by subjectively experiencing itself through its own creation.

We... the creation, ARE the Creator. And the process of unfolding consciousness, began with minearl, then plant, phytoplankton, turned to animal, animal left water and went on land, then human. You can see the history of planet Earth, the evolution of life on it, evolved from primitive consciousness to progressively more complex consciousness. In reality consciousnes just 'is' - its the creation that evolved to the point where we are now... human. The reason we are told human form is RARE and THIS is finally our opportunity to meet Creator is this: As human, our consciousness is finally evolved enough within the creation, where we can finally ask the most important question: Who am I and why am I here?

Remember its not us asking this question, and EVERY human culture has asked it. Its like there is a primal and built in drive to know the answer to this. As animal or plant we could not ask it. As human, this very question has resulted in nearly every major war. When we realize this is not US asking the question, but the experiencer, the DOER behind us (not the Ego - the temporary character) but remove all sense of Ego, (look at someone who has complete amnesia - there is still a consciousness there when all else is removed) THAT consciousness is the ONE who wants to know the answer to this question, and its the SAME ONE behind ALL of us and the drive to make this realization is so overwhelming that the Ego identities in all of us can't make sense of it. It's this drive, to know who we are, that has caused so much bad in the world. But that is because in this form, where we are ABLE to ask that question, we are also removed from the FORMLESS and absolute where eveyrthing is ONE. We can't understand in our separateness. So being separate is necessary, the individual is necessary, but now we have to conquer the Ego and remember WHO we really are - taking along with us the answer we have been longing to know.

Keep in mind, this is looking at it from another philosphy but I feel parallels Sikhi.

 

[ActsOfGod]

I plead that there is no harm reading what i am trying to say. though all of you have read the translation by some one else and do not like reading what i am trying to say. The raagmala has eight raags missing compared to all the raags in sggs. that means that it is not counting of the raags. neither it has five octaves nor eight octaves. i put it before but punjabi version was garbled. i am putting it again . i hope punjabi version comes out correct. if it does not then i cannot proceed further. let us see the translations from different people and then see what it is trying to tell us. after reading put your remarks and when my turn comes then i will also put my remarks whatever my mind through

ਰਾਗਮਾਲਾ॥ Rosary of tunes;

ੴਸਤਿਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ॥

God is one. He is realized by guru’s grace.

ਰਾਗ ਏਕ ਸੰਗਿ ਪੰਚ ਬਰੰਗਨ॥ਸੰਗਿ ਅਲਾਪਹਿ ਆਠਉ ਨੰਦਨ॥

There is one tune (God). The whole world sings His

praise in classical Tunes in the group of five;

ਪ੍ਰਥਮ ਰਾਗ ਭੈਰਉ ਵੈ ਕਰਹੀ॥

The first major tune is Raag Bhairao (Devotees tune).


ਪੰਚ ਰਾਗਨੀ ਸੰਗਿ ਉਚਰਹੀ॥

It sings the praise of God in a group of five including other sub tunes.

ਪ੍ਰਥਮ ਭੈਰਵੀ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੀ॥

First sub tune in the group is Bhairavee, and Bilaavalee;

ਪੁੰਨਿਆ ਕੀ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਬੰਗਲੀ॥

Your praises are sung in melodious tunes.

ਪੁਨਿ ਅਸਲੇਖੀ ਕੀ ਭਈ ਬਾਰੀ॥

Then comes the turn of other truthful tunes;

ਏਭੈਰਉਕੀਪਾਚਉਨਾਰੀ॥

These are the five tunes of major tune Bhairao.

ਪੰਚਮ ਹਰਖ ਦਿਸਾਖ ਸੁਨਾਵਹਿ॥

All five sing Your praises joyfully in godly tunes.

ਬੰਗਾਲਮ ਮਧੁ ਮਾਧਵ ਗਾਵਹਿ॥੧॥

Singing your praises in beautiful tunes full of melody; ||1||

ਲਲਤ ਬਿਲਾਵਲ ਗਾਵਹੀ ਅਪੁਨੀ ਅਪੁਨੀ ਭਾਂਤਿ

Tunes Lalat and Bilaaval - each have their own melody.

ਅਸਟ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਭੈਰਵ ਕੇ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਗਾਇਨ ਪਾਤ੍ਰ॥੧॥

Everyone is the son of Bhairav (God). Sings your praise in devotion! ||1||

ਦੁਤੀਆ ਮਾਲਕਉਸਕ ਆਲਾਪਹਿ॥ਸੰਗਿ ਰਾਗਨੀ ਪਾਚਉ ਥਾਪਹਿ॥

The second major tune is Maalakausak (Acquired knowledge)

also sings Your praises in the group of five tunes!

ਗੋਂਡਕਰੀ ਅਰੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ॥ਗੰਧਾਰੀ ਸੀਹੁਤੀ ਉਚਾਰੀ॥

Gondakaree and Dev Gandhaaree sing Your praises in loud voice.

ਧਨਾਸਰੀਏਪਾਚਉਗਾਈ॥ਮਾਲਰਾਗਕਉਸਕਸੰਗਿਲਾਈ॥

Including Dhanaasaree and maal raag in the group of Maalakausak;

ਮਾਰੂ ਮਸਤ ਅੰਗ ਮੇਵਾਰਾ॥ਪ੍ਰਬਲ ਚੰਡ ਕਉਸਕ ਉਭਾਰਾ॥

Maaroo raag is the devotional tune of Maiwar sung emotionally in the group.

ਖਉ ਖਟ ਅਉ ਭਉਰਾਨਦ ਗਾਏ॥ਅਸਟ ਮਾਲ ਕਉਸਕ ਸੰਗਿ ਲਾਏ॥੧॥

The devotional singers sing their best. Every

one is the son of Maalakausak (God). ||1||

ਪੁਨਿ ਆਇਅਉ ਹਿੰਡੋਲੁ ਪੰਚ ਨਾਰਿ ਸੰਗਿ ਅਸਟ ਸੁਤ॥

Then comes Hindol (joy); all sing Your praises in the group of five.

ਉਠਹਿ ਤਾਨ ਕਲੋਲ ਗਾਇਨ ਤਾਰ ਮਿਲਾਵਹੀ॥੧॥

They sing in harmony to the best of their ability. ||1||

ਤੇਲੰਗੀ ਦੇਵਕਰੀ ਆਈ॥ਬਸੰਤੀ ਸੰਦੂਰ ਸੁਹਾਈ॥

Then, comes Taylangee the music of gods; it is sung

with the best attire including saffron on forehead.

ਸਰਸ ਅਹੀਰੀ ਲੈ ਭਾਰਜਾ॥ਸੰਗਿ ਲਾਈ ਪਾਂਚਉ ਆਰਜਾ॥

The universe blooms and becomes green O brother;

here also Your praises are sung in the group of five tunes.

ਸੁਰਮਾਨੰਦ ਭਾਸਕਰ ਆਏ॥ਚੰਦ੍ਬਿੰਬ ਮੰਗਲਨ ਸੁਹਾਏ॥

The singers come well dressed wearing mascara, scent of

sandalwood on the forehead and wearing the sacred thread.

ਸਰਸ ਬਾਨ ਅਉ ਆਹਿ ਬਿਨੋਦਾ॥ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਰਸ ਬਸੰਤ ਕਮੋਦਾ॥

The whole atmosphere fills with joy, they sing Your

praises in tune basant with musical instruments.

ਅਸਟ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਮੈ ਕਹੇ ਸਵਾਰੀ॥

God pervades in every one.

ਪੁਨਿ ਆਈ ਦੀਪਕ ਕੀ ਬਾਰੀ॥੧॥

Then comes the turn of Deepak (enlightenment); ||1||

ਕਛੇਲੀ ਪਟ ਮੰਜਰੀ ਟੋਡੀ ਕਹੀ ਅਲਾਪਿ॥

Todee raag is sung with lot of zest in the group of five tunes.

ਕਾਮੋਦੀ ਅਉ ਗੂਜਰੀ ਸੰਗਿ ਦੀਪਕ ਕੇ ਥਾਪਿ॥੧॥

Goojree raag is sung with musical instruments in the group major raag Deepak. ||1||

ਕਾਲੰਕਾ ਕੁੰਤਲ ਅਉ ਰਾਮਾ॥ਕਮਲ ਕੁਸਮ ਚੰਪਕ ਕੇ ਨਾਮਾ॥

The ugly the beautiful and the devotees of God;

all are the children of the same flower The God.

ਗਉਰਾ ਅਉ ਕਾਨਰਾ ਕਲਿਆਨਾ ॥ਅਸਟ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਦੀਪਕ ਕੇ ਜਾਨਾ॥੧॥

Raag Gauraa, Kaanaraa and Kaylaanaa; all are the son of Deepak (God). ||1||

ਸਭ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਿਰੀ ਰਾਗ ਵੈ ਗਾਵਹ॥ਪਾਂਚਉ ਸੰਗਿ ਬਰੰਗਨ ਲਾਵਹਿ॥

All join and sing Siree Raag (tune to honor God) that also is sung in the group of five.

ਬੈਰਾਰੀ ਕਰਨਾਟੀ ਧਰੀ॥ਗਵਰੀ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਆਸਾ ਵਰੀ

Bairaaree is the tune of Karnaatka. The Aasaavaree is sung in a simple tune.

ਤਿਹ ਪਾਛੈ ਸਿੰਧਵੀ ਅਲਾਪੀ॥ਸਿਰੀ ਰਾਗ ਸਿਉ ਪਾਂਚਉ ਥਾਪੀ॥੧॥

Then follows raag Sindhavee; It is also the part of the group of tune siree Raag. ||1||

ਸਾਲੂ ਸਾਰਗ ਸਾਗਰਾ ਅਉਰ ਗੋਂਡ ਗੰਭੀਰ॥

Deep tune Raag Saarag is sung in deep devotion and raag Gond is serious.

ਅਸਟ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਗ ਕੇ ਗੁੰਡ ਕੁੰਭ ਹਮੀਰ॥੧॥

Everyone is the son of Siree Raag (God) whether

named Gund, Kumb or Hameer. ||1||

ਖਸਟਮ ਮੇਘ ਰਾਗ ਵੈ ਗਾਵਹਿ॥ਪਾਂਚਉ ਸੰਗਿ ਬਰੰਗਨ ਲਾਵਹਿ॥

The sixth major tune is Maygh Raag. (tune of guru`s grace)

Also sung in the group of five tunes!

ਸੋਰਠਿ ਗੋਂਡ ਮਲਾਰੀ ਧੁਨੀ॥

The tunes Sorath, Gond, and Malaar are part of Mayagh raag.

ਪੁਨਿ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਆਸਾ ਗੁਨ ਗੁਨੀ॥

Including Aasaa that is sung in slow rytham in the head;

ਊਚੈ ਸੁਰਿ ਸੂਹਉ ਪੁਨਿ ਕੀਨ॥ਮੇਘ ਰਾਗ ਸਿਉ ਪਾਚਉ ਚੀਨੀ॥੧॥

All sung in devotion loudly and form the

part of the group of five the Maygh Raag. ||1||

ਬੈਰਾਧਰ ਗਜਧਰ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ॥ਜਬਲੀਧਰ ਨਟ ਅਉ ਜਲਧਾਰਾ॥

The salty land, jungles, the religious shrines, the

land of warriors, land of magicians and the land of rivers;

ਪੁਨਿ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸੰਕਰ ਅਉ ਸਿਆਮਾ॥

Everywhere the devotees and the prophets sing Your praises.

ਮੇਘ ਰਾਗ ਪੁਤ੍ਰਨ ਕੇ ਨਾਮਾ॥੧॥

Those are the names of the sons of God the Maygh Raag.

ਖਸਟ ਰਾਗ ਉਨਿ ਗਾਏ ॥ ਸੰਗਿ ਰਾਗਨੀ ਤੀਸ

Six major tunes have been sung including the sub tunes

totaling thirty in Your admiration. One more added later.

ਸਭੈ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਰਾਗੰਨ ਕੇਅਠਾਰਹ ਦਸ ਬੀਸ॥੧॥੧॥

All are the son of the Creator of music (God)

whether eighteen, ten or twenty. ||1||1||

Mr. Swarn Bains,

Please offer definitive proof that raagmala is in fact Gurbani. Bear in mind the following points when offering your proof:

1) There is no author stated for the raagmala (such as Mehla 1, etc.). Before you mention it, I am fully aware that Japji Sahib does not contain the author signature either.

2) All the verses end with ||1|| which is incompatible with all of the rest of the Gurbani enshrined in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Why the inconsistency?

3) Raagmala appears after Guru Sahib's seal, i.e. "Mundavni"

It is quite clear that this was an addition after the ending of Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

If you are asserting that it is indeed Gurbani, please provide definitive proof. Simply claiming that "it is in SGGS, therefore it must be Gurbani" is not sufficient, based on the evidence above. We must be more discerning.

Also, refrain from claiming that the inquirers are "not spiritual enough". Provide some evidence that is tangible and real and can be verified and authenticated.

Thank you,
[AoG]

 

[swarn bains]

i started with asking giani jee about page 1430 and he did not answer yet. but i am involved in this imaginary discussion please provide with your contribution to sggs, sikh religion, theology before we proceed further. i do not want to deal with people who read khalsa's translation and then ask questions and provide argument. i was raked over coals on this site by scholars before, regarding my translation of sggs. at that time i did not know where the people get the information and object to my explanation. now i know it.