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Reincarnation

May 24, 2008
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Tejwant ji

Your story is haunting and it is magnificent. Especially the end when you observe that children who are special in some way, be it epilepsy or mental retardation or autism or a physical impairment, are gifts to us. They help the rest of us find our godly center, where we can learn to be loving, supportive, and open to every particle of creation, even the particles that don't look quite right to us at the time. We are transformed by them.

I am no expert on karma or on reincarnation. Just wondering aloud how it could be that Guru Nanak, a relentless teacher, would teach that Ik Oan Kaar is Creative, Supportive and Nurturing always, except when karams are concerned.

The idea of recycling through joon after joon , to cleanse our karmas and spiritually evolve, cannot be untangled from the caste system, as found in Manusmriti and the Ramayana. These two ideas of reincarnation and caste/varna are welded together. The same is not exactly true in Buddhism. And so I only ask, Does Sikhism have a different, unique view? Again, forgive me if I have insulted anyone.
Narayanjot Ji ,
The Hindu concept of Karma is defined as below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_in_Hinduism
The concept of Karma in Sikhism is that a human birth , the comforts , miseries , riches , poverty , health , relatives are as a result of previous Karma but the basic difference from Hinduism is that God ( Waheguru ) is perfectly capable of eliminating the effects of previous Karma in one moment of Grace in Sikhism when a Sikh remembers Him with singlemindedness whereas as per various schools of Hinduism the fruits of Karma have to be borne by the
soul there is no escaping from this .

The body is the field of karma in this age; whatever you plant, you shall harvest. (SGGS p78) and By the karma of past actions, the robe of this physical body is obtained. By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found. (SGGS p2)

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, no one is interested in good karma, or Dharmic faith. (SGGS p161) and They alone are good, who are judged good at the Lord's Door. Those with bad karma can only sit and weep. (SGGS p15) and Burnt by desire, and bound by the karma of their past actions, they go round and round, like the ox at the mill press. ((2)) (SGGS p800) and The self-willed manmukhs create karma, and in the Court of the Lord, they receive their punishment. ((1)) (SGGS p33)

You unite me with Yourself, O True God. Through perfect good karma You are obtained. ((6)) (SGGS p112) and The many religious rituals, good deeds of karma and Dharmic worship - above all of these is the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ((2)) (SGGS p405) and In the field of actions and karma, plant the Lord's Name; this opportunity is so difficult to obtain! ((2)) (SGGS p812) and The Word of the Guru's Shabad eradicates the karma of millions of past actions. ((3)(1)) (SGGS p1195)
 

spnadmin

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dalbirk ji

Thank you for your kindness. I have read this passage from Wikipedia perhaps a dozen times. It is a beautiful passage. It does not answer my questions. Nor does it address the perplexities of popular Sikh beliefs as described on the web and elsewhere.

To be united with Waheguru does not require taking a new birth.

Our/my problem is that we are already united with Waheguru but think and act as if we are not.

To speak the truth, I find that passage to be a poor explanation of what reincarnation might be and what the author might have said about reincarnation and karma in sikhi,

When authors, as in the Wikipedia article, write here is what Hindus think and here is what Sikhs think, they are not giving a thoughtful contrast, but repeating what they have read somewhere else, or personally believe. Tough questions are not asked about differences. And sometimes the ideas of karma and reincarnation in other dharmic faiths are not well explained either.

Forgive me if this is in any way demeaning your efforts to help with the discussion. My comments are not intended that way.
 

findingmyway

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This is a fascinating debate and I'm learning a lot! I would also like to add my 2 cents worth:


Dear reincarnation is one of there and been told by guruji in bani also its not the story that any body could change and its not add by hindusim it is a similarity betten the hindusim and sikhsim of reincarnation.I would ask you one quest think over it
Say one child was born in rich family and at the same time other born in poor family
After 1 min of there birth time the one who was born in rich family is already become millonare without doing any think
The other child who was born in poor family was still poor
You will say its luck
But who decide what kind of luck you will born with????????????????????????
Its you previous birth karma

Why are you judging luck on material wealth? Isn't that maya? If the one in the rich family is abused or blinded by maya and therefore distracted from Waheguru but the child in the poor family is loved and has faith, which would you say was actually richer and luckier? Surely the luck is self created-what do you make out of your situation? How do you make things better and harness the opportunities given? Money doesn't buy happiness which takes me onto my next point:

I've been reading a great amount of threads on here about this reincarnation topic and its seems like, for the most part and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, that there are 2 general camps. Those who accept the general theory of karma and reincarnation, and those who seem to completely obect to both. I've read in a couple of places (please don't ask me to find quotes from people as I've been reading all day now and my brain is a tad fried, that and I've jumped around to so many different websites and thread etc that I can't remember everything) that some of the people that reject karma and reincarnation say that we only go around once and that this is the only chance. I've read others who also say that they don't believe in reincarnation say that no matter what we're going to merge into God or disapear into oblivion.

My question is what happens to those people who do countless evil things like rapeing people and swindleing, killing children, being extremley prideful and violent etc and never acknowledge that what they do is wrong and never ask for forgiveness or accept their faults. When they die, do they just simply 'pass into oblivion' and never have to answer for their wickedness? I know God will forgive all for anything but what about people who do evil and never ask for forgiveness. I understand that God is not some cruel vengeful entity thats waiting to condemn everyone for every tiny wrong they comit. I accept that my knowledge of Sikh Dharma is sub-par at best especially compared to most of the members of this forum but in my personal opinon there has to be some sort of negative effect as a result of constant negitive actions in the next life. I've heard people talk about heaven and hell being on this planet, I understand where they're coming from and agree but shouldn't there still be something of a negitive nature that happens to someone who commits evil all their life? For example I know there are many evil, corrupt people in high positions of power around the world who live in extreme comfort and are totally happy and content with their lives and as far as they are concerned are living in heaven. They live their lives in happiness at the expense of others and at no time submit to God or ask forgiveness or even care for forgivness . So what I'm asking is when they pass on are they really going to just dissapear into oblivion without having to attone for their wrong doings? And if so whats the insentive to try and live a moral and pious life if there are no reprocutions for your actions? It seems to me like Karma forces people to have to atone one way or another for their wrong doings and is part of the insentive (NOT ALL mind you only part) to do good and live piously.

I Don't know, my logic may be flawed as I am not a Gyanee nor am I a Gurmukh so please forgive me if I've missed something somewhere and please help me to fill in the gaps.

Sat Naam Saddh Sangat

How do you know those people are happy and content? Define happiness? They way I see it is even if outwardly you seem very happy, inside there is always a restlessness. Even in Japji it is said that the more you have, the more greedy you become. This is exemplified by people who have all the latest modcons and gadgets. They seem happy playing with all their toys but are they really satisfied as they always want more! Same with money and other possessions. People who do wrong are always looking over their shoulder in case they get caught-is that being content? Gangsters are constantly worried about being backstabbed-is that happiness? Rapists and thieves are looking for a short term adrenaline rush so once they finish they are already looking ahead-is that happiness and being contented?

The only way to get real happiness and contentment is to follow the Guru's path. The shahids went through tremendous physical stress and torture yet they were not unhappy as they submitted completely to the will of Waheguru. To interpret Gurbani correctly, we 1st need to stop judging happiness referred to in Gurbani by our worldly standards but think in terms of spiritual happiness-the inner peace that i'm sure most of us don't currently have.

I'm still not 100% sure where I stand on reincarnation but I'm sure many of the janam/maran lines in Gurbani do refer to this lifetime. Certainly looking back over my life, when worldly affairs take me over to distract me and my spirituality decreases I become very unhappy and feel like a part of me dies. When I comeback to Waheguru and regain my strength, I feel like I am a new person. When I am mean to someone my conscious haunts me and bad things happen. When I am good to someone, good things happen to me.

I appreciate the work done by G Singh. However, as Narayanjot Kaur said Gurbani quotes need to be interpreted with the shabad as a whole otherwise it's very easy to get a skewed view of what is being said. Either way, the message is to be conscious of how you behave and to be the best human being you can be, whether you get the fruits of that labour in this life or the next is irrelevant for me. We can't control how we behave in other lifetimes (if there are any) so lets focus on the here and now!
 

spnadmin

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For some reason whenever a serious challenge to the topic of reincarnation comes to the surface the name of Kala Afghana is mentioned. This happened a few years back and I was called a heretic in a very unpleasant discussion.

I thank dalbirk ji for not going in that direction.

Earlier I mentioned the writing of Dr, Baldev Singh who was critical of prevailing views of karma and reincarnation in Sikhism. Dr.Baldev Singh was not a follower of Kala Afghana to the best of my knowledge. Kala Afghana is now a sick old man in Canada. His books were never available in English as far as I could determine, and they are currently unavailable in any language because of the fear book sellers have to purvey them. His influence may not be that great.
 

Tejwant Singh

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Tejwant Ji ,
I request you to kindly contact G Singh Ji on his blog
http://gursoch.blogspot.com/
or contact by mail at gursoch@yahoo.com
There are a number of schools of thought who are in no doubt regarding the acceptance of transmigration of human soul belief in Sikhism including Sikh Missionary College , Ludhiana , Giani Sant Singh Maskeen , Bhai Veer Singh , Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha , Giani Ditt Singh , Giani Pinderpal Singh , Bhai Randheer Singh & host lot of others . However the rejecting persons are all of recent origin post 1984 Kala Afghana , Spokesman Group , Inder Singh Ghagga all branded atheists in garb of Tat Gurmat Scholars mainly backed by Congress . The article of G Singh ji greatly helps to put all the doubts to rest regarding this subject .

Dalbirk ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the suggestion, however I beg to differ with you in what you wrote above.

What you mention above and what is reincarnation about are two different things.

you write:

the acceptance of transmigration of human soul belief in Sikhism
I would like to learn from the learned scholars like G Singh ji and others, what is the true meaning of SOUL? What is this SOUL that Gurbani talks about so often?

Unless we know about its meaning, we can not talk about reincarnation which in essence means taking a bodily shape again.

There are many holes according to my way of looking at Gurbani in G Singh's interpretation on reincarnation which for some reasons he calls it incarnation which has a different meaning and the reason of this change is only known to him. I will be dissecting his post step by step, time permitting.

Just as a starter, his interpretation of reshaping the iron is incorrect according to me. Iron ore is not for reshaping but for shaping into whatever we want it to. We can only reshape by melting what already had been shaped before.

His insistence on garab and joon means that one has to be reborn through the mother's womb does not make any sense either according to Sikhi. I will be doing the interpretation of each Shabad in individual posts.

G. Singh ji, as always is welcome here to contest what myself or others who write and may disagree with him.

As mentioned before and it is worth mentioning again that Sikhi did not stop in time like many other religions, hence we call it a journey rather than a destination where Hell or Heaven, which are a kind of reincarnation, are waiting for us.

The reason of us studying Gurbani daily via Nitnem, Sehaj Paath etc. etc is for us not to become parrots but rediscover ourselves with the help of Gurbani, otherwise the whole effort goes to waste and becomes futile.

The rediscovery of the self is to be shared with others. Sikhi is a very practical way of life. Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our tool box and our only Guru helps us do that.

So, for me this rediscovery is a reincarnation. Having a different outlook shows on our bodies physically. The inner metamorphosis is manifested in a physical manner.

I was talking to my daughter,Jaskeerat about it on the other day who just turned 20 on August 25th. Well, let me correct myself, she was talking about it to me about reincarnation and she had many interesting things to say about it.

One of many things she mentioned, one stuck to my heart literally and metaphorically speaking. She told me that my heart problem at the age of 46 and its remedies in a way of looking at life differently was a reincarnation for all 4 of us. Jaskeerat was 12 and Trimaan was 8 then. It changed all of us especially the young kids who had no idea how things would change. For Jaskeerat, every change, every new discovery about herself is the manifestation of reincarnation with which I totally agree with. Same goes for Trimaan who often talks about the day with me teary eyed when I had the V Tach. It affected him so much that he still remembers it and becomes emotional although the episode took place in Jan.2003.

A few days ago, I had a shock while at Trimaan's doctor. I had a bottle of water in my hand which flew away. I was fine after that because it hits like a donkey's kick for a second or 2 and then everything becomes normal. Shock is the last resort. The reason I brought this up is because I hate being late at any place and these 2 kids were delaying the process which made me a bit upset. After the episode, they both came to the conclusion that perhaps it was due to being late, their dad had the shock. From that time onwards, they are ready before time. So, for me this is reincarnation in a sense. Reincarnation will have no meaning in our lives if we did not see as an improvement of ourselves than before here and now.

The scholars you have mentioned above have contributed tremendously to Sikhi whether one agrees with some or not is not the case. Their contributions should give all of us encouragement to discover new gems in this beautiful Gurbani and we should not be afraid or fearful if we happen to disagree with them because of our own new discoveries.

Gurbani is a limitless ore of gems which I am sure, people who follow us will still be discovering something new till the end of times.

This is the beauty of Sikhi and being a Sikh.

What a blessed way to start our journey anew every time we open the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Guru!

Lastly, I would like to add is that all these discussions go to waste if we as Sikhs, are not able to make a difference in the world that we live in now.

Making a difference, changing someone's life here and now is reincarnation for me.

Regards.

Tejwant Singh
 
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spnadmin

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Tejwant ji, dalbirk ji, forum members

It is important in my opinion to distinguish between transmigration and reincarnation so that some basic understanding of exactly how "the soul" returns to take on a new "joon" and I use the Punjabi world deliberately here.

The word "joon" itself has been used differently in gurbani.

It is also in my opinion important to understand what is meant by "soul" as Tejwant ji so eloquently points out. How we understand the nature of the "soul" might guide understanding of how reincarnation or transmigration occurs as a practical matter, if indeed they do occur.

Is the soul something distict from consciousness? Or is it a special form of consciousness? If it is not consciousness then what is it?

What kind of soul are we talking about? Is there such a thing as "my soul?" Does it belong to me? Or is it on loan from a more overwhelming spiritual force, a greater soul? Do I give my soul up when I die? Or do I give it back? Or did I never own my own personal and separate soul in the first place? In other words is the soul personal? Is it a separate soul from all other souls for all other beings ever born? This question is not frivolous. Not only because how we answer it addresses the arithmetic problem mentioned by both blajeet ji and jasbirkaleka ji. But also because if we can come to terms with its nature, then we can grasp concepts of reincarnation and transmigration more clearly. But I am left wondering where this vichaar of the nature of the soul has been shared in a broad way.

More important than any of my questions about the soul and reincarnation and transmigration is the matter of how they fit into dharma.

My questions are worthless questions if we are unclear about the moral purpose of our quest. Do Sikh scholars consider the reincarnation of the soul to be a solitary karmic journey of individuals and their individual souls? Or is the karmic journey about the morality of our actions toward ourselves and others in this lifetime,whether or not reincarnation is a fact.
 

BhagatSingh

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An informal critique of Dr. Baldev Singh's article plus a discussion of things brought up in the thread.

For some reason whenever a serious challenge to the topic of reincarnation comes to the surface the name of Kala Afghana is mentioned. This happened a few years back and I was called a heretic in a very unpleasant discussion.

I thank dalbirk ji for not going in that direction.

Earlier I mentioned the writing of Dr, Baldev Singh who was critical of prevailing views of karma and reincarnation in Sikhism. Dr.Baldev Singh was not a follower of Kala Afghana to the best of my knowledge. Kala Afghana is now a sick old man in Canada. His books were never available in English as far as I could determine, and they are currently unavailable in any language because of the fear book sellers have to purvey them. His influence may not be that great.

I still have to see what Kala Afghana has written but I have read Dr. Baldev Singh's article several times now... I have to say I found it kind of funny this time around. Now that I understand the Fact of Evolution and have some understanding of Eastern Traditions (Budddhism, Hinduism and its schools, Sikhism), I don't buy into his arguments. I am sure Dr Baldev Singh ji is being quite honest with his interpretations of Gurbani but I am not so sure if they are correct at all. In fact, they have been interpreted with scientific glasses, which simply gives a scientific overtone to all verses he presents. and such overtones are just not there in the original. A simple fact of history that Modern Science is fairly recent compared to Guru Nanak's time, puts doubt on interpreting Sri Guru Granth Sahib scientifically. You just won't get the right interpretation if you interpret it in a modern context, and so Dr. Baldev Singh's article is what you would expect as a result, in hindsight.

I think G Singh's Post (provided by Dalbirk ji here i nthe thread) pretty much explains reincarnation in Sikhism. There IS a belief in reincarnation and transmigration of souls.
----------------------------
Dr Baldev Singh ji says:
...Guru Nanak rejected the caste system.

I am not so sure of this actually. This is one of the assumptions Singh makes in his article. I am not so sure Guru Nanak rejected the caste system, he certainly rejected the discrimination based on caste system. Races aren't like castes but if one takes the analogy at the superficially, then Guru Nanak was against Racism not the idea that there are separate races. Although, back in the day, castes would be considered no different to races.
As per the following Verse, we see Guru Nanak ji is not rejecting castes:
Page 349, Line 13
ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਨ ਪੂਛਹੁ ਜਾਤੀ ਆਗੈ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਹੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
जाणहु जोति न पूछहु जाती आगै जाति न हे ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jāṇhu joṯ na pūcẖẖahu jāṯī āgai jāṯ na he. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Recognize the Lord's Light within all, and do not consider social class or status; there are no classes or castes in the world hereafter. ||1||Pause||
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok



In this verse, Guru Ramdas ji says that castes were created by God.
Page 553, Line 16
ਆਪੇ ਦਸ ਅਠ ਵਰਨ ਉਪਾਇਅਨੁ ਆਪਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਆਪਿ ਰਾਜੁ ਲਇਆ ॥
आपे दस अठ वरन उपाइअनु आपि ब्रहमु आपि राजु लइआ ॥
Āpe ḏas aṯẖ varan upā▫i▫an āp barahm āp rāj la▫i▫ā.
He Himself created the people of the eighteen castes; God Himself acquired His domain.
Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

So he says based on his assumption Guru Nanak would have rejected the whole concept of Reincarnation because it supports Caste. Whether reincarnation supports caste, is a separate issue and it may not have to be the case all the time, but since we see that Caste is not rejected, there is no reason to think Guru Nanak would reject reincarnation.

In all Eastern Traditions there exists this notion of Samsara, the cycle of creation and destruction. At the largest scale, it is the creation and destruction of the cosmos. At a smaller scale of the individual, it is the creation of destruction of life. Life is full of suffering and so to escape the cycle, samsara, was the goal of human life if one wanted peace and happiness.

[side note: Life was full of suffering during Guru Nanak Dev ji's time and before. Its much easier now because of Modern Medicine and all the technologies such as sewer systems, electricity and proper housing and such. But back then sickness and death were very common and old age was pretty unbearable.]

-----------------------
Baldev Singh ji then says:
You will be amazed to find that what you wrote [about Evolution] sounds more like the language of reincarnation.

Well, I am not so sure that it evolution is even remotely similar to reincarnation, and Baldev Singh ji has presented no reason to show that it is. His claim is basless. Recall that reincarnation is Samsara on the smaller scale, on an individual 'scale. It is a cycle of creation and destruction. Evolution is not a cyclical cycle of creation and destruction.

-----------------------------------
Singh then argues that:
Again, here the Nanakian philosophy radically differs from other religions. In Nanakian philosophy, soul is God--the Transcendent One that permeates the entire cosmos and it is called as jyoti (light).
Hence, essence of God is present in everything. We call it soul when it is specifically present in life. It does not have to be consciousness, in that sense.
BTW contrary to what Singh seems to believe, this is exactly what Hindu tradtions also say about the soul, and it does not contradict with reincarnation.

In Sri Guru Granth Sahib, soul is not separate from God but it does have to suffer during life. Reincarnation means that the soul has to suffer over and over again. The discipline of Bhagati is ultimately meant to release the soul from the the cycle of births and deaths, from the suffering.


-------X----------X-----------X---------------

Narayanjot Kaur ji,
Your questions can not be so easily answered because Hinduism has evolved so much since its beginnings. What makes it worse is that Hinduism keeps all the beliefs it ever had, it does not discard anything, and it continues to evolve and branch.


1. Karma 4. Caste System (and maybe even 7.) 2. How is the Hindu view of reincarnation (and karma and caste) different from the Sikh view of reincarnation (if they are different)?
We come to see that older notions of caste, karma and reincarnation in Hindu Traditions involve a movement of the soul higher on the hierarchy system of Castes. Good karma leads to a higher position on the "Caste ladder".... eventually one becomes a Kshatriya then Brahman then Sadhu/Bhagat (highest position) and is then liberated.

This is not mentioned or discussed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, as far as I know.


3. Is belief in reincarnation central to the practice of Sikhism? If it is central, then why so?
It is central because the Bhagati discipline prescribed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib is a way of obtaining God's grace, which releases us from reincarnation. Reincarnation means constant suffering, release from it gives peace and satisfaction. God's grace is the door out of it and Bhagati is the way to the door.
If one says its not central, I would ask why follow Guru Nanak's way to life if you don't believe in reincarnation?

5. /6. Do children who are victims of war and famine, or women who are victims of horrific disfigurement at the hands of their husbands, suffer because of previous karmas? Does their suffering clean them up according to gurmat?
Well, according to Sri Guru Granth Sahib, apparently the past actions do affect us in this life. But we are only to concern ourselves with this life, and cleansing only occurs when:
ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਕਰਨ ਸੁਣਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ
मेरे मन करन सुणि हरि नामु ॥
Mere man karan suṇ har nām.
O my mind, with your ears, listen to the Name of the Lord. [Part of the discipline of Bhagati]

ਮਿਟਹਿ ਅਘ ਤੇਰੇ ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੇ ਕਵਨੁ ਬਪੁਰੋ ਜਾਮੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
मिटहि अघ तेरे जनम जनम के कवनु बपुरो जामु ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Mitėh agẖ ṯere janam janam ke kavan bapuro jām. ||1|| rahā▫o.
The sins of your many past lifetimes shall be washed away; then, what can the wretched Messenger of Death do to you? ||1||Pause||
Page 1006, Line 10 Guru Arjan Dev ji
 
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Re: An informal critique of Dr. Baldev Singh's article plus a discussion of things brought up in the thread.

Bhagat Singh ji

Here are a few reactions to your comprehensive answers.

Dr. Baldev Singh was a humorist. So there may have been places in his article where you thought it funny and he was in fact being facetious. I would have to go back and find exact examples. Dr. 'Baldev Singh was a scientist. As a matter of fact he had his doctorate in pharmacology and worked in pharmaceutical research for many years before his recent passing. Rather than see the results of his analysis "scientific" I tend to see his approach to be more revealing of the keen logic of a good researcher. He has written extensively about Sikhism and I encourage you to read the vast number of articles he has contributed over the years.

His work appears in Sikh Spectrum, Global Sikh Studies, and Sikh Bulletin. The latter publication has frequently been targeted as a pro Kala Afghana and atheist journal.

Are you sure that Sri Guru Granth Sahib connects reincarnation to movement of the soul through a hierarchy of spiritual states? Are you sure that it does not? What do you believe Sri Guru Granth Sahib teaches are the steps to liberation from the cycle of life and death? Is this similar to the Hindu concept of mukhti or not?

It is precisely my concern that an ordinary understanding of reincarnation nearly always refers to successive stages of improvement. That idea of working every so sequentially toward mukhti, that makes me pause and ask questions.

You are quite right when you say that Hinduism has evolved. It is always difficult to talk about "hinduism" in comparison to x y or z belief system without being simplistic because there are so many ways to practice Hinduism. For some it is not even a religion but a way of life. And many reject the caste system while others have a very abstract view of god, as non personal and transcendent. I am both aware and sensitive to the issues you raise.

I hope I have used the word not so much generically, but in reference to the Law of Manu and the Ramayana, rather than all of Hinduism.


I do wonder about the vichaar you have given for several of the verses from Gurbani. But look forward to your posting the entire shabads and telling us what you believe they say..




But my questions have not been answered. :happykaur:
 
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BhagatSingh

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Re: An informal critique of Dr. Baldev Singh's article plus a discussion of things brought up in the thread.

Narayanjot kaur ji,
Bhagat Singh ji

Here are a few reactions to your comprehensive answers.

Dr. Baldev Singh was a humorist. So there may have been places in his article where you thought it funny and he was in fact being facetious. I would have to go back and find exact examples.

Dr. 'Baldev Singh was a scientist. As a matter of fact he had his doctorate in pharmacology and worked in pharmaceutical research for many years before his recent passing. Rather than see the results of his analysis "scientific" I tend to see his approach to be more revealing of the keen logic of a good researcher. He has written extensively about Sikhism and I encourage you to read the vast number of articles he has contributed over the years.
Yes, its quite clear from the article that he is a scientist. He does use good logic but I am afraid his interpretations may not be correct. Many verses he presents have scientific overtones.


His work appears in Sikh Spectrum, Global Sikh Studies, and Sikh Bulletin. The latter publication has frequently been targeted as a pro Kala Afghana and atheist journal.
Sure, I'll read his material.
Are you sure that Sri Guru Granth Sahib connects reincarnation to movement of the soul through a hierarchy of spiritual states? Are you sure that it does not?
Not at all. I said Sri Guru Granth Sahib does not mention or discuss it. Am I sure that it does not mention it? Nope.

What do you believe Sri Guru Granth Sahib teaches are the steps to liberation from the cycle of life and death? Is this similar to the Hindu concept of mukhti or not?
I have mentioned before, in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, the discipline of Bhagati (Bhakti Yog) seems to be the prescribed method for obtaining God's Grace, which then leads to liberation.

In Bhakti Movement, this is a prevalent thought. Not in other schools though. Some Hindu schools even consider Bhagati as inferior, instead they might advocate for Royal Discipline of Meditation (Raj Yog).

Also important to note: Bhakti Yog is a bit different in Sikhism. Look at this list of "ways of Bhakti", Sri Guru Granth Sahib does not advocate all of them.
"(1) śravaṇa("listening" to the scriptural stories of Kṛṣṇa/God and his companions), (2) kīrtana ("praising", usually refers to ecstatic group singing), (3) simaraṇa ("remembering" or fixing the mind on Viṣṇu/God), (4) pāda-sevana (rendering service), (5) arcana (worshiping an image), (6) vandana (paying homage), (7) dāsya (servitude), (8. sākhya (friendship), and (9) ātma-nivedana (self-surrender). (from Bhagata Purana, 7.5.23-24)"


It is precisely my concern that an ordinary understanding of reincarnation nearly always refers to successive stages of improvement, working every so sequentially toward mukhti, that makes me pause and ask questions.
No, reincarnation is not always progressive. Only good karma and the following can lead to progression and thus Mukti:
Bhakti Yog(Sikhism, Bhakti Movement, Sufism)
Raj Yog (Advaita Vedanta, Vishishtadvaita Vedanta, Buddhism, Zen Buddhism)

You are quite right when you say that Hinduism has evolved. It is always difficult to talk about "hinduism" in comparison to x y or z belief system without being simplistic because there are so many ways to practice Hinduism. For some it is not even a religion but a way of life. And many reject the caste system while others have a very abstract view of god, as non personal and transcendent. I am both aware and sensitive to the issues you raise.

I hope have used the word not so much generically but in reference to the Law of Manu and the Ramayana, rather than all of Hinduism.
Yes, I understand that completely.

I do wonder about the vichaar you have given for several of the verses from Gurbani. But look forward to your posting the entire shabads and telling us what you believe they say..
The verses in Dr. Baldev Singh ji's article?


But my questions have not been answered. :happykaur:
Well in that case, you should see what has been answered, what still needs to be answered. And then we can start researching from there.
------------------

We have to be honest here.. yes we have our own interpretations of things but it ultimately comes from a scientific mindset . Such a mindset with knowledge of latest scientific discoveries was not present during Guru Nanak's time. And to attribute the discoveries to ancient texts whether its the Bible, Quran or even something more modern as Sri Guru Granth Sahib, is kind of dishonest.
Yes, on a personal level one could believe those interpretations, but ultimately, if we are to find out exactly what Guru Nanak Dev ji meant, we are going to have to consider the influences and conditions of his time.
We have to learn to recognize and abandon all the assumptions we make knowingly or unknowingly, when analyzing such texts. Problem is that shunning some of the assumptions is seen as "disrespectful"... if you get the gist.
We are also going to have to consider what was known during that time. E.g. we should not interpret verses to describe Higg's Uncertainty Principle.
 

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Re: An informal critique of Dr. Baldev Singh's article plus a discussion of things brought up in the thread.

]Bhagat Singh ji

I have omitted some of your comments from the quoted text in my reply and need to return to them later. In a way I am almost reluctant because that would stand the chance of getting the discussion off onto a few tangents. So let's see. You make some interesting points. So I am replying to the end of your last comment. My thoughts are in blue.


I am wondering whether you read my comments much earlier in the thread where I said that perhaps there is a 3rd school of thought, maybe even more than 3 schools of thought on the subject of reincarnation. That one need not be forced into accepting the more common vichaars of gurbani verus rejecting reincarnation completely. It has been my sole intent in the past day or so to ask questions, as I myself do not have answers.


I am also less interested in coming to conclusions on this than I am in seeing the questions asked. Because I do not think they have been addressed for the most part in the many different sources I have read (neither on Dr. Baldev Sigh's side, nor from opposing perspectives). I personally do not agree with Dr. Baldev Singh. At the same time he has raised issues that need to be considered because he has shown where we have deviated from Guru Nanak's teaching.


We have to be honest here.. yes we have our own interpretations of things but it ultimately comes from a scientific mindset .


You know, many times when someone challenges or questions a vichaar they are accused of putting mannnmat above gurmat. I often wonder how any vichaar could be anything but the results of our thinking, analysis, comparisons and contrasts. We assemble our thinking and hope that we have captured the essence of shabads that we feel hold the answers. Where else would our understanding come from if not from our intellect. So the only difference between Dr. Baldev Singh and the rest of us is that he iwas trained to use his mind in a certain way, and used it in a disciplined way for many years.

So where do we Gurmat? We find it in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. The sense that we make of it iis what we need to evaluate. Not the words of the Guru but our understanding needs to be evaluated. That is what I am trying to accomplish in my own life. Questions are what keep us honest.



Such a mindset with knowledge of latest scientific discoveries was not present during Guru Nanak's time. And to attribute the discoveries to ancient texts whether its the Bible, Quran or even something more modern as Sri Guru Granth Sahib, is kind of dishonest.

I am not sure where these words are coming from actually. Who was using recent scientific discoveries to interpret ancient texts? Dr. Singh? But how many times have we read that Guru Nanak actually had an intuitive grasp of modern scientific views such as quantum theory and used such a scientific framework to explain his worldview. Maybe you would elaborate.

Yes, on a personal level one could believe those interpretations, but ultimately, if we are to find out exactly what Guru Nanak Dev ji meant, we are going to have to consider the influences and conditions of his time.
We have to learn to recognize and abandon all the assumptions we make knowingly or unknowingly, when analyzing such texts. Problem is that shunning some of the assumptions is seen as "disrespectful"... if you get the gist.

I do get the gist. However if we ground all of our understanding in the historical realities of Guru Nanak's time then his teaching would logically become outdated or lose its relevance for modern times. You are confusing me. On one hand you seem unwilling to see Guru Nanak's teaching being relevant to modern science. On the other hand you seem to say that his teaching must be placed in an historical context in order to be understood. Certainly knowledge of the history and events surrounding his teaching enriches our understanding. But why limit his teaching by either science or history? Guru Nanak I thought wrote for all peoples and all ages, and Guru Gobind Singh makes Sri Guru Granth Sahib our eternal Guru. To me that means that even without the historical background, the shabad must be piercing in its relevance to our times.

We are also going to have to consider what was known during that time. E.g. we should not interpret verses to describe Higg's Uncertainty Principle.

Please elaborate. How are you tying this statement to the discussion so far? Unless of course you want to offer your own scientific model for interpreting the shabad guru.



Are there really only two views of reincarnation in this thread?
 

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Re: An informal critique of Dr. Baldev Singh's article plus a discussion of things brought up in the thread.

Bhagat Singh ji

I do have a question for you - asked earlier. What is your understanding of this shabad? It is one that you quoted maybe 4 posts back. You said you were not certain the Guru Nanak rejects the caste system. Would you relate your ideas about science and history to your understanding of the shabad? It is important to get back to the entire shabad so the individual verses are not taken out of context. Thanks



ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
आसा महला १ ॥
Āsā mėhlā 1.
Aasaa, First Mehl:

ਜੇ ਦਰਿ ਮਾਂਗਤੁ ਕੂਕ ਕਰੇ ਮਹਲੀ ਖਸਮੁ ਸੁਣੇ ॥
जे दरि मांगतु कूक करे महली खसमु सुणे ॥
Je ḏar māʼngaṯ kūk kare mahlī kẖasam suṇe.
If a beggar cries out at the door, the Master hears it in His Mansion.

ਭਾਵੈ ਧੀਰਕ ਭਾਵੈ ਧਕੇ ਏਕ ਵਡਾਈ ਦੇਇ ॥੧॥
भावै धीरक भावै धके एक वडाई देइ ॥१॥
Bẖāvai ḏẖīrak bẖāvai ḏẖake ek vadā▫ī ḏe▫e. ||1||
Whether He receives him or pushes him away, it is the Gift of the Lord's Greatness. ||1||

ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਨ ਪੂਛਹੁ ਜਾਤੀ ਆਗੈ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਹੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
जाणहु जोति न पूछहु जाती आगै जाति न हे ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jāṇhu joṯ na pūcẖẖahu jāṯī āgai jāṯ na he. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Recognize the Lord's Light within all, and do not consider social class or status; there are no classes or castes in the world hereafter. ||1||Pause||

ਆਪਿ ਕਰਾਏ ਆਪਿ ਕਰੇਇ ॥
आपि कराए आपि करेइ ॥
Āp karā▫e āp kare▫i.
He Himself acts, and He Himself inspires us to act.

ਆਪਿ ਉਲਾਮ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਚਿਤਿ ਧਰੇਇ ॥
आपि उलाम्हे चिति धरेइ ॥
Āp ulāmeĥ cẖiṯ ḏẖare▫e.
He Himself considers our complaints.

ਜਾ ਤੂੰ ਕਰਣਹਾਰੁ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥
जा तूं करणहारु करतारु ॥
Jā ṯūʼn karanhār karṯār.
Since You, O Creator Lord, are the Doer,

ਕਿਆ ਮੁਹਤਾਜੀ ਕਿਆ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
किआ मुहताजी किआ संसारु ॥२॥
Ki▫ā muhṯājī ki▫ā sansār. ||2||
why should I submit to the world? ||2||

ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਏ ਆਪੇ ਦੇਇ ॥
आपि उपाए आपे देइ ॥
Āp upā▫e āpe ḏe▫e.
You Yourself created and You Yourself give.

ਆਪੇ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਮਨਹਿ ਕਰੇਇ ॥
आपे दुरमति मनहि करेइ ॥
Āpe ḏurmaṯ manėh kare▫i.
You Yourself eliminate evil-mindedness;

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦਿ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥
गुर परसादि वसै मनि आइ ॥
Gur parsāḏ vasai man ā▫e.
by Guru's Grace, You come to abide in our minds,

ਦੁਖੁ ਅਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੇਰਾ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਜਾਇ ॥੩॥
दुखु अन्हेरा विचहु जाइ ॥३॥
Ḏukẖ anĥerā vicẖahu jā▫e. ||3||
and then, pain and darkness are dispelled from within. ||3||

ਸਾਚੁ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪਿ ਕਰੇਇ ॥
साचु पिआरा आपि करेइ ॥
Sācẖ pi▫ārā āp kare▫i.
He Himself infuses love for the Truth.

ਅਵਰੀ ਕਉ ਸਾਚੁ ਨ ਦੇਇ ॥
अवरी कउ साचु न देइ ॥
Avrī ka▫o sācẖ na ḏe▫e.
Unto others, the Truth is not bestowed.

ਜੇ ਕਿਸੈ ਦੇਇ ਵਖਾਣੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਗੈ ਪੂਛ ਨ ਲੇਇ ॥੪॥੩॥
जे किसै देइ वखाणै नानकु आगै पूछ न लेइ ॥४॥३॥
Je kisai ḏe▫e vakẖāṇai Nānak āgai pūcẖẖ na le▫e. ||4||3||
If He bestows it upon someone, says Nanak, then, in the world hereafter, that person is not called to account. ||4||3||
 

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Re: An informal critique of Dr. Baldev Singh's article plus a discussion of things brought up in the thread.

Bhagat Singh ji

I have moved your last reply to this thread.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/32050-can-the-modern-mind-comprehend-gurbani.html

The only minds we have to read and interpret gurbani, or to have this discussion about Reincarnation, are the minds we now have. Be we merchants, professors, biochemists, students, and the like. Of course we have filters. there is no getting around it. So did each and every person who every wrote a translation of SGGS, or the author of Guru Granth Darpan, Professor Sahib Singh. He wrote from the perspective of the late 19th and early 20th Century, as a Sanskirt scholar and activist in the Gurdwara Reform Movement. Thus it is unworkable to make "filters" cause for dismissing individual points of view.

I have asked you to give your vichaar of a shabad rather than quoting one line, so that the forum can understand how you have responded to points rasied in previous posts by me and other members.

However, you have been a bit unfair.Your reply so changed the basic direction of the discussion that one would have to debate each and every new and unique presumption you have introduced, before being able to circle back to the thread itself. By that time the original direction of the thread would be lost.

Please do give us your vichaar of the shabad. Be sensitive to issues raised by others. Do not change the framework of conversation in a way that absolves you from being responsive, and rather gives you a way to redefine the debate. Thanks.
 

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Here is a very good article by my enlightened friend G singh ( pk70 ) on his blog . Describes the whole concept in its entireity .

http://gursoch.blogspot.com/
20100810
The concept of Incarnation in Gurbani
First of all, I must mention here that talking about the Creator bears no rationality. It is a personal belief. This belief leads to an experience which doesn’t need verification from those who turn hyper - rational while following rationality. In Sikhi, the concept of incarnation exists, and I shall prove it in detail with the help of Guru’s own words. I shall also share with you the expressions, used in Gurbani, that clearly express the concept of incarnation. We will also see if they are merely metaphors. If the concept of incarnation is taken away from Sikhi, as I have learned from studying Gurbani, the purpose of doing Naam - Simran and living detached from Maya appear hardly useful. Doubtlessly, Naam – Simran and remaining detached from Maya filth are basics of Sikhi; therefore, the concept of incarnation in Gurbani is a very important factor. There are many questions about some references given in Gurbani about “after - death” scenario; those can never be answered through rational approach. For instance, the statements as “nothing goes with the soul but His Name [595 Sri Guru Granth Sahib, 1342 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Mehla 1,” are repeatedly given in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Because I have been a student of literature, I am very well aware of usage of metaphors. Most often, the thing that bothers me is that whenever people talk about “unique Nanakian – philosophy” [indeed it is], they forget one thing that to prove that uniqueness, distortion of Gurbani is not required to satisfy rational – world. To put in other words, we Sikhs, should never try to make numbers by declaring that Sikhi is a scientific religion. In a matter of fact, no religion can be scientific. Out there the people, who are trying to teach science from their religious scriptures, have failed to contribute anything of significance to science. Obviously, it becomes a joke if any person does so.
Distortion in Gurbani occurs when people use “Janam – Maran” as “stages of life.” Of course, there are some usages where “janam – Maran/taking birth, dying” indeed are used for zigzags of life which happen because of the frequent tides of joy and pains in life. In Gurbani, when there is a direct reference to the incarnation, it should be accepted as it is. Some hyper – rational people say that the talk about incarnation is there because Gurus and Bhagatas didn’t want to get into a controversy openly, so they used it as metaphors or references to established thoughts [It is totally laughable idea though]. I wonder what are they are thinking! In fact, all enlightened ones have been into controversy due to their different approach towards life than the rest of the population; History verifies it. It remains a fact that they have never shown fear while expressing their spiritual experience; we shall check that as well. Let us start with Guru Nanak Dev’s own words, on 752 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Raag Suhee, Mehla 1

ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ਜਿਉ ਆਰਣਿ ਲੋਹਾ ਪਾਇ ਭੰਨਿ ਘੜਾਈਐ ॥ ਤਿਉ ਸਾਕਤੁ ਜੋਨੀ ਪਾਇ ਭਵੈ ਭਵਾਈਐ ॥੧॥
Sūhī mėhlā 1. Ji▫o āraṇ lohā pā▫e bẖann gẖaṛā▫ī▫ai. Ŧi▫o sākaṯ jonī pā▫e bẖavai bẖavā▫ī▫ai. ||1||

In Essence: Just as the iron is put in a furnace to melt it for reshaping it, Maya – lover is put through various existences.

In the above Vaakas, a comparison of the reshaping of the iron and the going into existences of the Maya - lover mortals, is done. In these Vaakas,there is no other metaphoric expression which can change its meaning. Let us for a moment, assume it is a metaphor referring to miseries of life; however, then a question rises: why a mortal is put through various miseries? Is it done to make him or her better? What about those who never become better though they go through miseries all the time? In the above Vaakas, it is said clearly that something is done to accomplish something, isn’t? Otherwise, why to put the mortals into miseries? In other words, what is accomplished by doing so? Reshaping of the iron means to sculpture it again; what is accomplished by putting Maya - lovers into miseries then? Most of the Maya - lovers remain devoid of eternal happiness, isn’t that enough? Obviously, here it [Joni pae] is not a metaphor used to convey miseries etc. Guru makes it easier to understand the concept of incarnation by comparing it with the process of iron - refashioning; the mortals who do not live in His love, go through various existences like the iron put in the furnace to reshape it. Clearly, it is a simple comparison of iron and plight of the Maya – lovers. There is no way anyone can deny this concept of incarnation in Gurbani. Please read on the next Vaakas of “Rahao” this idea becomes crystal clear:

ਜਿਵੇਂ ਭੱਠੀ ਵਿਚ ਲੋਹਾ ਪਾ ਕੇ (ਤੇ) ਗਾਲ ਕੇ (ਨਵੇਂ ਸਿਰੇ) ਘੜਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਲੋਹੇ ਤੋਂ ਕੰਮ ਆਉਣ ਵਾਲੀਆਂ ਚੀਜ਼ਾਂ ਬਣਾਈਆਂ ਜਾਂਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ) ਤਿਵੇਂ ਮਾਇਆ-ਵੇੜ੍ਹਿਆ ਜੀਵ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦੇ ਗੇੜ ਵਿਚ ਪਾਇਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਗੇੜ ਵਿਚ ਚੱਕਰ ਲਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਤੇ ਆਖ਼ਿਰ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਮੇਹਰ ਨਾਲ ਸੁਮਤਿ ਸਿੱਖਦਾ ਹੈ)।੧।


ਬਿਨੁ ਬੂਝੇ ਸਭੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਕਮਾਵਣਾ ॥ ਹਉਮੈ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਵਣਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Bin būjẖe sabẖ ḏukẖ ḏukẖ kamāvaṇā. Ha▫umai āvai jā▫e bẖaram bẖulāvaṇā. ||1|| rahā▫o.

In Essence: Without knowing Him/realizing Him, all what the mortals get is distress. Because of the conceit, people keep coming and going, and the doubt keeps deluding them. [Pause]

For the hyper – rational, everything finishes here because nothing is left to recycle. As per above Guru Vakaas, due to conceit they come and go, but from where they come and to where they go? To find out the truth; therefore, we should understand what is being talked in the Vaakas?
Actual meaning of “coming and going” is to be born to die as a routine after a life. From where mortals come and to where they go, is answered in the first Vaakas: they take birth to die to take birth again. Doubtlessly, in the “Raho” Vaakas, the concept of coming and going is also made clear. Hence the Coming and the going is not any metaphor that can change the meaning of above Guru Vaakas. If anyone doesn’t believe in it, I call it his or her choice, but Guru Nanak – path certainly is based on getting the soul saved from this coming and going by obtaining union with the Creator.

(ਸਹੀ ਜੀਵਨ-ਜਾਚ) ਸਮਝਣ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਮਨੁੱਖ (ਜੇਹੜਾ ਭੀ) ਕਰਮ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਦੁੱਖ (ਪੈਦਾ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ) ਦੁੱਖ ਹੀ ਦੁੱਖ (ਸਹੇੜਦਾ ਹੈ)। ਹਉਮੈ ਦੇ ਕਾਰਨ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦੇ ਗੇੜ ਵਿਚ ਪਿਆ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਭਟਕਣਾ ਵਿਚ ਪੈ ਕੇ ਕੁਰਾਹੇ ਪਿਆ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ।੧।ਰਹਾਉ।
In this Shabada which partially quoted above, Guru keeps explaining how the loss of not having union with the Creator occurs, and how it is still possible to be with Him. It is a simple concept: As a soul, a part of the Creator is away from Him and it will continue going into existences until it settles with the Creator finally. In the last Vaakas of the Shabada, Guru concludes that if one turns towards Him, it is possible that His grace occurs and the union with Him will happen. If the mortals remain attached to Maya – love, they will pass through various existences; however, in this human life, a chance to realize Him certainly comes. If it is lost, who knows when such chance will come again? On 725 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Mehla 1:

ਜਿਨਿ ਰੰਗਿ ਕੰਤੁ ਨ ਰਾਵਿਆ ਸਾ ਪਛੋ ਰੇ ਤਾਣੀ ॥ ਹਾਥ ਪਛੋੜੈ ਸਿਰੁ ਧੁਣੈ ਜਬ ਰੈਣਿ ਵਿਹਾਣੀ ॥੨॥
Jin rang kanṯ na rāvi▫ā sā pacẖẖo re ṯāṇī. Hāth pacẖẖoṛe sir ḏẖuṇai jab raiṇ vihāṇī. ||2||

In Essence: That soul – bride repents eventually, who doesn’t enjoy being in love with her Spouse [Creator], and when the life - night ends, she will repent seriously [by hitting head with something, an expression of repentance]

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਜਿਸ ਜੀਵ-ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਨੇ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਨਾਲ ਖਸਮ-ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕੀਤਾ, ਉਹ ਆਖ਼ਰ ਪਛੁਤਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ। ਜਦੋਂ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਦੀ ਰਾਤ ਬੀਤ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ ਤਦੋਂ ਉਹ ਆਪਣੇ ਹੱਥ ਮਲਦੀ ਹੈ, ਸਿਰ ਮਾਰਦੀ ਹੈ;।੨।

ਪਛੋਤਾਵਾ ਨਾ ਮਿਲੈ ਜਬ ਚੂਕੈਗੀ ਸਾਰੀ ॥ ਤਾ ਫਿਰਿ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਰਾਵੀਐ ਜਬ ਆਵੈਗੀ ਵਾਰੀ ॥੩॥
Pacẖẖoṯāvā nā milai jab cẖūkaigī sārī. Ŧā fir pi▫ārā rāvī▫ai jab āvaigī vārī. ||3||

In Essence: [Idea from first Vaakas continues]. Nothing is gained by repenting when the Life – night ends. She [the soul –bride] can contemplate on Him only when she gets her turn again. [Vari: turn/chance]
Above, there is not only the use of Vari/turn” but also the word “Fir/again” is used with it to explain the occurrence of the next turn.

(ਪਰ) ਜਦੋਂ ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਦੀ ਸਾਰੀ ਰਾਤ ਮੁੱਕ ਜਾਏਗੀ, ਤਦੋਂ ਪਛੁਤਾਵਾ ਕੀਤਿਆਂ ਕੁਝ ਹਾਸਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ। ਉਸ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨੂੰ ਫਿਰ ਤਦੋਂ ਹੀ ਸਿਮਰਿਆ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਦੋਂ (ਮੁੜ ਕਦੇ) ਮਨੁੱਖਾ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੀ ਵਾਰੀ ਮਿਲੇਗੀ।੩।

After the end of life, what is the “turn = chance” Guru ji is talking about? Living life to the fullest doesn’t need any Divine knowledge; such goals are put into the heads by Maya – inflicted societies anyway. Divine knowledge is all about Him. To understand Him, love Him, and to live this given life in His love. For that, a True Guru, who has seen Him and is able to show others, is required. Other than that, all other things like conquering area and becoming Master of that area has nothing to do with the Divine knowledge. The urges to get power are enforced by “self – conceit”, which blocks the spiritual progression. We are aware of the fact that so called warriors of establishing Islam or other religions didn’t think for a second to kill their own brothers to fetch power. Often religion is used to satisfy one’s own conceit; it is called exploitation of the religion and giving bad name to the religion. Where conceit exists, the growth of spirituality related with the creator remains stagnant. As per Gurbani advice, the human birth is a chance to realize Him, so we should rise above rubbish of the worldly talk and live totally in His love. By doing so, He is realized, and the purpose of this human birth is accomplished. Otherwise, when will such chance/turn [to contemplate on Him] come, nobody knows but the Creator. Talking about the Creator and still chasing lustful – pursuits do not go together. Talking about praising the Creator and establishing empires by killing others is not a religious goal. All such goals are conceit - guided. His devotee divorces from such pursuits because he/she doesn’t live for such goals but to be with Him.


As per Guru – thought, if this life is wasted in other pursuits, a chance at hand to contemplate on Him is missed. Guru Nanak Dev is not interested in science; Guru Ji is not worried if some hyper - rational people will not be convinced with what he says. As per his personal experience with the Creator, he simply keeps stressing the need of the Creator in the life to get free from all bonds .

Sometimes some people try to be cute by proving Gurbani – concepts as rationality – based concepts, sometimes they try to distort Gurbani to meet their own life styles, and sometimes to please hyper -rational people by claiming that they belong to a faith which is scientific. Having such approach, they claim Guru Nanak Dev doesn’t believe in the incarnation, and they try to give new meanings to the words like “maran, Jaman, joon/ dying/taking birth/existence” forgetting that this concept is also described in Gurbani with a clear cut word “Garbh/womb”; a list of such proofs in this regard is not lmited. It is also a sheer blindness not to comprehend the truth, which goes beyond rationality. That is why Guru – directions stress on abandoning our own intellect to follow the Guru. Going into “garbh” is not a metaphor, it is all about taking birth through a mother; it is that simple.

Since I am not a scholar of other religions, so I shall talk about Sikhi only which is based on Gurbani. I admit that Gurbani deals with rationality, but on some avenues, it detours from it and talks about paranormal issues like “nothing goes with the being but His Naam after death or a journey of the souls into different existences”. Those Sikhs [As they believe to be], who do not believe in the incarnation, claim that Sikhi has nothing to do with the incarnation; however, they have no way out to interpret the words like “ ਗਰਭ ਜੂਨੀ Garabẖ Joni”repeatedly used in Gurbani. Keeping Gurbani statements in my mind, I must say this that they are not only naive about the concept of incarnation in Gurbani but also in denial to accept this fact supported by the Gurus vigorously. As stated earlier, hyper – rational intellectuals interpret that “Janam/marn/birth and death” as the metaphors defining “stages of life.” Let us agree with them for a second, still the words like “ਗਰਭ ਜੂਨੀgarbh/ existence through mother’s womb,” overwhelmingly, defines the origin of birth. What kind of metaphor is that? Guru is very clear on that and continuously talks about the journey of the soul.
On 715 Todi Mehla 5

ਸੁਣਿ ਮਨ ਸੀਖ ਸਾਧੂ ਜਨ ਸਗਲੋ ਥਾਰੇ ਸਗਲੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਛਤ ਮਿਟਿਓ ਰੇ ॥ ਜਾ ਕੋ ਲਹਣੋ ਮਹਰਾਜ ਰੀ ਗਾਠੜੀਓ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਗਰਭਾਸਿ ਨ ਪਉੜਿਓ ਰੇ ॥੨॥੨॥੧੯॥
Suṇ man sīkẖ sāḏẖū jan saglo thāre sagle parācẖẖaṯ miti▫o re. Jā ko lahṇo mahrāj rī gāṯẖ▫ṛī▫o jan Nānak garbẖās na pa▫oṛi▫o re. ||2||2||19||

In Essence: Oh mind! Listen to the teachings of Saints, your all sins will be eliminated. Who is destined to get [Naam] from Prabh’s treasure, they do not enter into mother’s womb.
What can be the other meaning of “going into mother’s womb” than ‘incarnation” here?
Now look at the whole concept of Sikhi given by Guru Nanak on 414 Sri Guru Granth Sahib

ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਮਹਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥ ਅਕਲ ਕਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਸਾਚਿ ਟਿਕਾਵੈ ॥ ਸੋ ਨਰੁ ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ ਨਹੀ ਆਵੈ ॥੪॥
Nirankār mėh ākār samāvai. Akal kalā sacẖ sācẖ tikāvai. So nar garabẖ jon nahī āvai. ||4||

In Essence: The one, who immerses in Formless Prabh and stables with the Eternal Creator having power beyond measure, doesn’t enter into womb-existence.

It is all about attaching to Him and never getting separated from Him through involving in His Simran.

On 604 Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Third Nanak uses “maran/die” as a metaphor, in the following Guru Vaakas, it is very much clear in its use; let us look at it, but keep in mind that in the Guru Vaakas that follow these Vaakas below, its use has different meaning:

ਸਬਦਿ ਮਰਹੁ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੀਵਹੁ ਸਦ ਹੀ ਤਾ ਫਿਰਿ ਮਰਣੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਦਾ ਮਨਿ ਮੀਠਾ ਸਬਦੇ ਪਾਵੈ ਕੋਈ ॥੩॥
Sabaḏ marahu fir jīvhu saḏ hī ṯā fir maraṇ na ho▫ī. Amriṯ nām saḏā man mīṯẖā sabḏe pāvai ko▫ī. ||3||

In Essence: When the mortal totally involves in The Guru – Shaabada and dies [gets detached], he or she doesn’t die again [metaphor: once one learns how to live detached through Guru Shabada, then there is no chance that he or she will ever go through painful moments again]. A few obtain the ever sweet Name of Prabh through Guru Shabada.

Again stress is on The Guru – teachings that inspire the mind to be with the Name of the Creator; once that is happened, pains do not bother again. Therefore, the use of “Maran/to die” here is indeed a metaphor. Now look at the below Guru Vaakas, there is no way it can be a metaphoric expression with the same meaning stated above:

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿਚ ਜੁੜ ਕੇ (ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਵਲੋਂ) ਅਛੋਹ ਹੋ ਜਾਵੋ, ਫਿਰ ਸਦਾ ਲਈ ਹੀ ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਜੀਊਂਦੇ ਰਹੋਗੇ, ਫਿਰ ਕਦੇ ਆਤਮਕ ਮੌਤ ਨੇੜੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਢੁਕੇਗੀ। ਜੇਹੜਾ ਭੀ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਹਰਿ-ਨਾਮ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਇਹ ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੇਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਦਾ ਲਈ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਮਿੱਠਾ ਲੱਗਣ ਲੱਗ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ।

ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਇਆ ਹਉਮੈ ਬੰਧਨ ਕਮਾਏ ॥ ਜੰਮਣੁ ਮਰਣੁ ਸਿਰ ਊਪਰਿ ਊਭਉ ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਏ ॥੨॥
Ŧarai guṇ mā▫i▫ā bẖaram bẖulā▫i▫ā ha▫umai banḏẖan kamā▫e. Jamaṇ maraṇ sir ūpar ūbẖa▫o garabẖ jon ḏukẖ pā▫e. ||2||

In Essence: Those who are bound due to their conceit are deluded by three modes of Maya. Birth and death hang over their heads, and by going through the womb -existences, they suffer in pain. ||2||

Here if we take, “Jaman-Maran” as a metaphor, what we will do with the word “ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ Garbhjoon” used in the above Vaakas? Guru has used both “Jaman – Maran” and “garbh – joon” together to express his belief in “going into existences”. What more proof we need to admit that Guru Nanak Dev believes in various existences after death? How anyone can call it a metaphor and give new meanings to “garbh-joon/ existence through a womb”?

Now look how Guru stresses on “ਫੁਨਿ FUN /again/”
On 898 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Mehla 5

ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਇਹ ਲੋਕੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ ਨਹੀ ਭੇਟਤ ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇਆ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਦਰਗਹ ਸੋਭਾਵੰਤ ॥ ਫੁਨਿ ਗਰਭਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਬਸੰਤ ॥੧॥
Rāmkalī mėhlā 5. Ih loke sukẖ pā▫i▫ā. Nahī bẖetaṯ ḏẖaram rā▫i▫ā. Har ḏargėh sobẖāvanṯ. Fun garabẖ nāhī basanṯ. ||1||

In Essence: In this world, I have procured peace. In His court I will be memorable; there will be no meeting with righteous judge, and I shall not abide in the womb again.

(ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੂੰ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਮਿੱਤ੍ਰਤਾ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ ਉਸ ਨੇ) ਇਸ ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ (ਆਤਮਕ) ਸੁਖ ਮਾਣਿਆ, (ਪਰਲੋਕ ਵਿਚ) ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਧਰਮਰਾਜ ਨਾਲ ਵਾਹ ਨਾਹ ਪਿਆ। ਉਹ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਹਜ਼ੂਰੀ ਵਿਚ ਸੋਭਾ ਵਾਲਾ ਬਣਦਾ ਹੈ, ਮੁੜ ਮੁੜ ਜਨਮਾਂ ਦੇ ਗੇੜ ਵਿਚ (ਭੀ) ਨਹੀਂ ਪੈਂਦਾ।੧।

Please read carefully, “eh loke/this world”, if this world is ਇਹ ਲੋਕੇ / Ih loke, then question rise: is there any other world? Guru talks about that too. When Guru says that there will be no meeting with the “dharamrajsupposedly known to be the judge who serves justice on behalf of the Creator,” obviously he talks about afterlife; his statement is about going to the Creator with honor without any obstacle. After this world, after getting His honor, Guru also says that there will be no going into womb again. I don’t see any other meanings implied in the above quoted Vaakas.

The words, “ਫੁਨਿ ਗਰਭਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਬਸੰਤ” again tell the whole story: going into a womb again. Obviously it means to reincarnate. Guru also uses another word “ਫਿਰਿ” which means “again;” here it is on 717 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Mehla 5

ਚਾਰਿ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਅਸਟ ਮਹਾ ਸਿਧਿ ਕਾਮਧੇਨੁ ਪਾਰਜਾਤ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਰੁਖੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਨਿ ਗਹੀ ਸੁਖ ਸਾਗਰ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਫਿਰਿ ਗਰਭ ਨ ਧੁਖੁ ॥੨॥੧੦॥੨੯॥
Cẖār paḏārath asat mahā siḏẖ kāmḏẖen pārjāṯ har har rukẖ. Nānak saran gahī sukẖ sāgar janam maran fir garabẖ na ḏẖukẖ. ||2||10||29||

In Essence: Akalpurakh Himself is the source of four blessings, eight supernatural powers of great Sidhas, the wish – fulfilling Elysian cow and the wish – fulfilling tree. Nanak says that the person who takes support of the Ocean of peace, the Creator, will not worry to go back to “womb – existence” again. [Means only this life is outcome of womb but again there will be none; well if a person remains into duality is there another life? The answer follows]

ਹੇ ਮਾਂ! ਚਾਰ ਪਦਾਰਥ (ਦੇਣ ਵਾਲਾ), ਅੱਠ ਵੱਡੀਆਂ ਕਰਾਮਾਤੀ ਤਾਕਤਾਂ (ਦੇਣ ਵਾਲਾ) ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਹੈ। ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਕਾਮਧੇਨ; ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਪਾਰਜਾਤ ਰੁੱਖ। ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! (ਆਖ-ਹੇ ਮਾਂ! ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੇ) ਸੁਖਾਂ ਦੇ ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਆਸਰਾ ਲੈ ਲਿਆ, ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦੇ ਗੇੜ ਦਾ ਫ਼ਿਕਰ, ਜੂਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਪੈਣ ਦਾ ਫ਼ਿਕਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ।੨।੧੦।੨੯।

On 128 Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Third Nanak explains it explicitly and this is what Guru believes in. If some do not want to believe in it, they are free to enjoy the swings of their own thoughts:

ਮਾਝ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਪੜਹਿ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਕਹਾਵਹਿ ॥ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਮਹਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਵਹਿ ॥ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਮਾਤੇ ਕਿਛੁ ਸੂਝੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੂਨੀ ਆਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥
Mājẖ mėhlā 3. Manmukẖ paṛėh pandiṯ kahāvėh. Ḏūjai bẖā▫e mahā ḏukẖ pāvahi. Bikẖi▫ā māṯe kicẖẖ sūjẖai nāhī fir fir jūnī āvaṇi▫ā. ||1||

In Essence: The mind – slaves study and deem themselves pundit. Due to others love [other than the Creator], they suffer greatly. Being intoxicated in Maya, they do not understand anything; therefore, they go into existence repeatedly [ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ which means again and again]

ਆਪਣੇ ਮਨ ਦੇ ਪਿੱਛੇ ਤੁਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ (ਵੇਦ ਆਦਿਕ ਧਰਮ ਪੁਸਤਕਾਂ) ਪੜ੍ਹਦੇ ਹਨ (ਤੇ ਇਸ ਕਾਰਨ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ) ਪੰਡਿਤ ਵਿਦਵਾਨ ਅਖਵਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ (ਪਰ ਫਿਰ ਭੀ ਉਹ) ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਪਿਆਰ ਵਿਚ (ਟਿਕੇ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਧਰਮ-ਪੁਸਤਕਾਂ ਪੜ੍ਹਦੇ ਹੋਏ ਭੀ ਹਉਮੈ ਆਦਿਕ ਦਾ) ਵੱਡਾ ਦੁੱਖ ਸਹਿੰਦੇ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ। ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਵਿਚ ਮਸਤ ਰਹਿਣ ਕਰਕੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ (ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੀ) ਕੁਝ ਭੀ ਸਮਝ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੈਂਦੀ, ਉਹ ਮੁੜ ਮੁੜ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਪਏ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ।੧।

It is just not a talk or a reference to the established belief, but it is a part of Guru Message. As per Gurbani, our being in an existence is an explicit picture of separation from the Creator. This is the pain that needs to be ended just as His true devotees do. On 336 Fifth Nanak says that most of the people are in love with Maya, which keeps them going into various existences:

ਏਤੁ ਮੋਹਿ ਡੂਬਾ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕੋਈ ਉਤਰੈ ਪਾਰਿ ॥੩॥
Ėṯ mohi dūbā sansār. Gurmukẖ ko▫ī uṯrai pār. ||3||

In Essence: In this love [the love of Maya], the world is drowned, a rare Guru – follower swims across [Maya ocean].

ਇਹ ਮੋਹ ਵਿਚ ਸਾਰਾ ਜਗਤ ਡੁੱਬਾ ਪਿਆ ਹੈ, ਕੋਈ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਜੋ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਦੱਸੇ ਰਸਤੇ ਤੇ ਤੁਰਦਾ ਹੈ (ਮੋਹ ਦੇ ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਵਿਚੋਂ) ਪਾਰ ਲੰਘਦਾ ਹੈ।੩।

ਏਤੁ ਮੋਹਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੂਨੀ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ ਮੋਹੇ ਲਾਗਾ ਜਮ ਪੁਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥੪॥
Ėṯ mohi fir jūnī pāhi. Mohe lāgā jam pur jāhi. ||4||

In Essence: Because of this love [Maya love instead of loving the Creator], the mortal goes through existence again; due to this love, he or she has to go through death [again].
Note: Everybody faces death, why in above Vaakas, facing death is described as a loss, or painful? Doubtless, it makes clear that as long as one remains into existences by forgetting the Creator, facing death remains dreadful because it comes again and again and separates the soul from its attachments. For His devotees, it becomes a last call because they merge with the Creator once for all and do not face it again. This idea is elaborated in the following Guru Vakaas:

(ਹੇ ਭਾਈ!) ਇਸ ਮੋਹ ਵਿਚ (ਫਸਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ) ਤੂੰ ਮੁੜ ਮੁੜ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਪਏਂਗਾ, ਮੋਹ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਜਕੜਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਤੂੰ ਜਮਰਾਜ ਦੇ ਦੇਸ ਵਿਚ ਜਾਵੇਂਗਾ।੪।
Now read a verification of the concept of going through various existences, it is on 769 Mehla 3

ਸਾਚੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਬੁਝਾਇਆ ਪਤਿ ਰਾਖੈ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਸਚਾ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਭਾਉ ਸਚਾ ਹੈ ਸਚੈ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਈ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਸਾਚੈ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਈ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਗਰਭਿ ਨ ਜੂਨੀ ਵਾਸਾ ॥ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਈ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਈ ਸਚਿ ਨਾਇ ਪਰਗਾਸਾ ॥ ਜਿਨੀ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਤਾ ਸੇ ਸਚੇ ਹੋਏ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਸਚੁ ਧਿਆਇਨਿ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਿਨ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਵਸਿਆ ਨਾ ਵੀਛੁੜਿ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਨਿ ॥੨॥
Sācẖai saṯgur sācẖ bujẖā▫i▫ā paṯ rākẖai sacẖ so▫ī rām. Sacẖā bẖojan bẖā▫o sacẖā hai sacẖai nām sukẖ ho▫ī rām. Sācẖai nām sukẖ ho▫ī marai na ko▫ī garabẖ na jūnī vāsā. Joṯī joṯ milā▫ī sacẖ samā▫ī sacẖ nā▫e pargāsā. Jinī sacẖ jāṯā se sacẖe ho▫e an▫ḏin sacẖ ḏẖi▫ā▫in. Nānak sacẖ nām jin hirḏai vasi▫ā nā vīcẖẖuṛ ḏukẖ pā▫in. ||2||

In Essence: Whom, the True Guru makes realized the Eternal Prabh, their honor is saved. Their true love for the Creator becomes their diet and they obtain peace. They obtain peace with the name of the Eternal Prabh, and they don’t die to go into existence because their light merges with the Eternal Prabh; His Name enlightens them. Those who have realized the Eternal Creator, get imbued with the Eternal One, and remain always meditated on Him. Nanak says that in whose hearts the Eternal Name abides, they never get separated from Him to bear pain again.

Separation from the Creator is certainly full of pains. Even being alive, who get imbued with Him, don’t die [death is deemed fearful for those who are attached to Maya]. They leave this body - house to be with Him; therefore, for them there is no “death”again. In other words, they do not enter into body – house that eventually crumbles; consequently, they will not go again through that coming and going.

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਰੂਪ ਗੁਰੂ ਨੇ ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੂੰ ਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਗਿਆਨ ਦੇ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਲਾਜ ਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਆਪ ਰੱਖਦਾ ਹੈ। ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਚਰਨਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਅਟੱਲ ਪਿਆਰ ਉਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੀ ਆਤਮਕ ਖ਼ੁਰਾਕ ਬਣ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰ ਹਰਿ-ਨਾਮ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਆਤਮਕ ਆਨੰਦ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਜਿਸ ਭੀ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੂੰ ਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਚ ਆਤਮਕ ਆਨੰਦ ਲੱਭਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਕਦੇ ਆਤਮਕ ਮੌਤ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਹੇੜਦਾ, ਉਹ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦੇ ਗੇੜ ਵਿਚ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੈਂਦਾ। (ਗੁਰੂ ਨੇ ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੀ) ਸੁਰਤਿ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਵਿਚ ਮਿਲਾ ਦਿੱਤੀ, ਉਹ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਵਿਚ ਲੀਨ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰ ਹਰਿ-ਨਾਮ ਦੀ ਬਰਕਤਿ ਨਾਲ (ਉਸ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਦਾ) ਚਾਨਣ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਮਨੁੱਖਾਂ ਨੇ ਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨਾਲ ਡੂੰਘੀ ਸਾਂਝ ਪਾ ਲਈ ਉਹ ਉਸੇ ਦਾ ਰੂਪ ਬਣ ਗਏ, ਉਹ ਹਰ ਵੇਲੇ ਉਸ ਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਦੇ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ। ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਮਨੁੱਖਾਂ ਦੇ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਵੱਸ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਫਿਰ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਵਿਛੁੜ ਕੇ ਦੁੱਖ ਨਹੀਂ ਪਾਂਦੇ।੨।

In above Vaakas, two things are very clear: those, who through Guru, merge with the Creator, don’t die to take birth again.The second, because they don’t get separate from Him; consequently, there is no pain.

On 1289 Sri Guru Granth Sahib First Nanak in very compact expression talks about stability of mind and a “full stop” to existences, please read carefully:

ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਅਜਰੁ ਜਰੈ ਤ ਨਉ ਕੁਲ ਬੰਧੁ ॥ ਪੂਜੈ ਪ੍ਰਾਣ ਹੋਵੈ ਥਿਰੁ ਕੰਧੁ ॥
Mėhlā 1. Ajar jarai ṯa na▫o kul banḏẖ. Pūjai parāṇ hovai thir kanḏẖ.

In Essence: When one learns to control the uncontrollable mind [mercurial state of mind], all nine sensual organs become stable [they don’t drag the mind to many directions]. Then, through every breath one adores the Creator, and the body totally goes into stable state [free from vice].

ਜਦੋਂ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਮਨ ਦੀ ਉਸ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਤੇ ਕਾਬੂ ਪਾ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਕਾਬੂ ਪਾਣਾ ਔਖਾ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ (ਭਾਵ, ਜਦੋਂ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਮਨ ਨੂੰ ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਡਿੱਗਣ ਤੋਂ ਰੋਕ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ), ਜਦੋਂ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਸੁਆਸ ਸੁਆਸ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨੂੰ ਸਿਮਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ ਇਸ ਦੇ ਨੌ ਹੀ (ਕਰਮ ਤੇ ਗਿਆਨ) ਇੰਦ੍ਰੇ ਜਾਇਜ਼ ਹੱਦ ਵਿਚ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਇਸ ਦਾ ਸਰੀਰ ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਵਲੋਂ ਅਡੋਲ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ।

ਕਹਾਂ ਤੇ ਆਇਆ ਕਹਾਂ ਏਹੁ ਜਾਣੁ ॥ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਤ ਰਹੈ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਬੂਝੈ ਤਤੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥ ਇਹੁ ਪਰਸਾਦੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੇ ਜਾਣੈ ॥
Kahāʼn ṯe ā▫i▫ā kahāʼn ehu jāṇ. Jīvaṯ maraṯ rahai parvāṇ. Hukmai būjẖai ṯaṯ pacẖẖāṇai. Ih parsāḏ gurū ṯe jāṇai.
In Essence: [idea continues, once the mind gets imbued with the Creator, whole situation is changed] from where it has come and to where it has to go? [Through a question Guru explains: everything comes to an end, the coming, and the going doesn’t remain active then] A person is accepted by the Creator, when he or she lives being detached. [As stated above, when uncontrollable mind is stilled, it remains fixed on the Creator] Only the one, who understands His Ordinance, can know Him; however, this understanding comes through Guru’s blessings.

In the next Vaakas, Guru very clearly states that it is the “self – conceit” that causes the mortal to get caught into this cycle of coming and going; when it is eradicated, “going into existences” stops.

ਕਿੱਥੋਂ ਆਇਆ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਕਿੱਥੇ ਇਸ ਨੇ ਜਾਣਾ ਹੈ? (ਭਾਵ, ਇਸ ਦਾ 'ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦਾ ਚੱਕਰ' ਮਿਟ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ), ਜੀਵਤ-ਭਾਵ (ਭਾਵ, ਨਫ਼ਸਾਨੀ ਖ਼ਾਹਸ਼ਾਂ) ਤੋਂ ਮਰ ਕੇ (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਰ ਤੇ) ਪ੍ਰਵਾਨ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਤਦੋਂ ਜੀਵ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਰਜ਼ਾ ਨੂੰ ਸਮਝ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਅਸਲੀਅਤ ਨੂੰ ਪਛਾਣ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ-ਇਹ ਮਿਹਰ ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੋਂ ਮਿਲਦੀ ਹੈ।

ਹੋਂਦਾ ਫੜੀਅਗੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਾਣੁ ॥ ਨਾ ਹਉ ਨਾ ਮੈ ਜੂਨੀ ਪਾਣੁ ॥੨॥
Hoʼnḏā faṛī▫ag Nānak jāṇ. Nā ha▫o nā mai jūnī pāṇ. ||2||

In Essence: Nanak says that it must be understood that as long as one’s “conceit/I – force” exists, one remains bound [to Maya, consequently, coming and going goes on]. When there is no “conceit/I – force,” there is no “coming and going”.
The same idea is explicitly made clear by Fifth Nanak on 278 Sri Guru Granth Sahib

ਜਬ ਲਗੁ ਜਾਨੈ ਮੁਝ ਤੇ ਕਛੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਤਬ ਇਸ ਕਉ ਸੁਖੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਜਬ ਇਹ ਜਾਨੈ ਮੈ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਤਾ ॥ ਤਬ ਲਗੁ ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਫਿਰਤਾ ॥
Jab lag jānai mujẖ ṯe kacẖẖ ho▫e. Ŧab is ka▫o sukẖ nāhī ko▫e. Jab ih jānai mai kicẖẖ karṯā. Ŧab lag garabẖ jon mėh firṯā.

In Essence: As long as the mortal thinks that he or she can do something, he or she doesn’t get peace. When he or she believes that it is him/her who is the doer of everything [dominance of conceit], he or she keeps wandering into existences.

As stated earlier, it is the conceit that keeps the human beings into a cycle of death and birth; once it is eradicated through Guru, this cycle stops. On 330 Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Guru applauds those who get attached with the Creator and get out of this cycle of existences:

ਪਉੜੀ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਸੋਭਾ ਕਿਆ ਗਣੀ ਜਿਨੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਲਧਾ ॥ ਸਾਧਾ ਸਰਣੀ ਜੋ ਪਵੈ ਸੋ ਛੁਟੈ ਬਧਾ ॥ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀਐ ਜੋਨਿ ਗਰਭਿ ਨ ਦਧਾ
Pa▫oṛī. Ŧin kī sobẖā ki▫ā gaṇī jinī har har laḏẖā. Sāḏẖā sarṇī jo pavai so cẖẖutai baḏẖā. Guṇ gāvai abināsī▫ai jon garabẖ na ḏaḏẖā

In Essence: It is not possible to express the glory of those persons who have realized the Creator. Those who seek the refuge of His Devotees [who have realized Him], get liberated from all bonds because they only sing the virtues of Imperishable Prabh, and do not get burnt though existences.

Again going through existences is deemed as painful process as getting burnt.

ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ (ਗੁਰਮੁਖਾਂ) ਨੇ ਰੱਬ ਨੂੰ ਲੱਭ ਲਿਆ ਹੈ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਬਿਆਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕੀਤੀ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੀ, ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਾਂ ਦੀ ਸ਼ਰਨ ਆਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਹ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਬੰਧਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਬੱਝਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਮੁਕਤ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਭਾਵ, ਉਸ ਦੇ ਮਾਇਕ ਬੰਧਨ ਟੁੱਟ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ), ਉਹ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਪੈ ਪੈ ਕੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਸੜਦਾ,

On 598 Sri Guru Granth Sahib, First Nanak stresses that through True Guru, a person is saved from the cycle of existences, please read on:

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬੰਧਨ ਤੋੜਿ ਨਿਰਾਰੇ ਬਹੁੜਿ ਨ ਗਰਭ ਮਝਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਗਿਆਨ ਰਤਨੁ ਪਰਗਾਸਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੮॥
Saṯgur banḏẖan ṯoṛ nirāre bahuṛ na garabẖ majẖārī jī▫o. Nānak gi▫ān raṯan pargāsi▫ā har man vasi▫ā nirankārī jī▫o. ||4||8||

In Essence: Whose bonds True Guru shatters, they are set free from Maya – influences and do not enter into a womb again. Nanak says in whose heart Guru’s jewel of Divine – knowledge is manifested, the Formless Creator abides in their minds.

ਹੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ! ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਬੰਧਨ ਤੋੜ ਕੇ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਬੰਦਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਤੂੰ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੋਂ ਨਿਰਲੇਪ ਕਰ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈਂ, ਉਹ ਮੁੜ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦੇ ਗੇੜ ਵਿਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੈਂਦਾ। ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! (ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਨਾਲ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ) ਗਿਆਨ ਦਾ ਰਤਨ ਚਮਕ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਹਰੀ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ (ਆਪ) ਆ ਵੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ।੪।੮।

On 693 Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Bhagat Namdev says a very interesting thing, please read on:

ਇਹ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਤੇ ਤਬ ਹੀ ਛੂਟਉ ਜਉ ਮਾਇਆ ਨਹ ਲਪਟਾਵਉ ॥ ਮਾਇਆ ਨਾਮੁ ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ ਕਾ ਤਿਹ ਤਜਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਾਵਉ ॥੩॥
Ih sansār ṯe ṯab hī cẖẖūta▫o ja▫o mā▫i▫ā nah laptāva▫o. Mā▫i▫ā nām garabẖ jon kā ṯih ṯaj ḏarsan pāva▫o. ||3||

In Essence: Only then I can get rid of bonds of this world when I do not get caught into Maya - love because it is the cause of womb – existences [Maya is another name of womb –existence which means due to it, womb – existence is there, also remember, the conceit is also Maya].

ਇਸ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਦੇ ਬੰਧਨਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਮੇਰੀ ਤਦੋਂ ਹੀ ਖ਼ਲਾਸੀ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ ਹੈ ਜੇ ਮੈਂ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਵਿਚ ਨਾ ਫਸਾਂ; ਮਾਇਆ (ਦਾ ਮੋਹ) ਹੀ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦੇ ਗੇੜ ਵਿਚ ਪੈਣ ਦਾ ਮੂਲ ਹੈ, ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਤਿਆਗ ਕੇ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਦੀਦਾਰ ਹੋ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ।੩। .

In Gurbani, there is a concept of separation from the Creator and a union with Him; our existence is due to our separation from the Creator. To get out of separation is to seek union with Him. His union occurs due to mortal’s pure love for Him, but the separation exists due to the game of Maya – love. To put it different way, those persons who are into His love are set free from womb existences and they obtain union with the Creator; however; those who are into Maya - love, are subject to existences for the Maya realm.

When people lose virtues, they lose Him. As a result of it,without hesitating, they obtain lofty aim with treachery. Interestingly, that is the choice most of the worldly people often make in reality. it doesn’t bother them if they have any faith in the Creator or not, they take whatever faith they choose as per their own terms, and their chosen faith doesn’t bound them to virtues. Their gratification is to satisfy their conceit; however, all this worldly significant stuff, is literally useless for His devotees. They think that since it is all meaningless and doesn’t go with the soul as the death comes, then why they need to go through existences and remain separate from the Creator? This is the stand of His devotees. In such kind of thinking, lies their gratification. Their life is the Creator, their breath is the Creator and without Creator, nothing exists for them. Having that much love for Him, they go above all worldly thoughts and entanglements. In spiritual realms, they are victorious. When the goal of life is changed, the approach towards world will certainly change.

The People, who advocate that Guru Nanak Dev doesn’t believe in the incarnation, give Gurbani – quotes which state that no one knows where the soul goes after death. Let me give that kind of quote that states that it is not known where the soul goes; however, I must say that we should look at its context as well. It is on 752 - 753 Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Mehla 1

ਹਉ ਨਾਹੀ ਤੂ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਤੁਧ ਹੀ ਸਾਜਿਆ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਥਾਪਿ ਉਥਾਪਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਨਿਵਾਜਿਆ ॥੫॥
Ha▫o nāhī ṯū hovėh ṯuḏẖ hī sāji▫ā. Āpe thāp uthāp sabaḏ nivāji▫ā. ||5||

In Essence: Oh Prabh! You are there where conceit [awareness of “I”] doesn’t exist, and all this [Like conceit/Maya/creation], you have created. You create and destroy, and through Guru Shabada, you exalt and elevate beings. [Here in meaning of this Guru Vaakas, I slightly differ from Dr S.S. Ji]

ਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ! ਤੂੰ ਹੀ (ਸਾਰਾ ਜਗਤ) ਪੈਦਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ, ਤੂੰ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਪੈਦਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈਂ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਨਾਸ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈਂ। ਜਿਸ ਜੀਵ ਨੂੰ ਤੂੰ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿਚ ਜੋੜ ਕੇ ਨਿਵਾਜਦਾ ਹੈਂ ਜਿਸ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਤੂੰ (ਪਰਗਟ) ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈਂ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ 'ਹਉਮੈ' ਨਹੀਂ ਰਹਿ ਜਾਂਦੀ।੫।


ਦੇਹੀ ਭਸਮ ਰੁਲਾਇ ਨ ਜਾਪੀ ਕਹ ਗਇਆ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ਸੋ ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਭਇਆ ॥੬॥
Ḏehī bẖasam rulā▫e na jāpī kah ga▫i▫ā. Āpe rahi▫ā samā▫e so vismāḏ bẖa▫i▫ā. ||6||
In Essence: Leaving the body to roll in the dust, where the soul/being goes is not known. It is a great wonder that Prabh pervades everywhere. [Expression is about His incomprehensible Ordinance and power to permeate in all]

ਜੀਵਾਤਮਾ (ਆਪਣੇ ਸਰੀਰ ਨੂੰ ਛੱਡ ਕੇ) ਸਰੀਰ ਨੂੰ ਮਿੱਟੀ ਵਿਚ ਰੁਲਾ ਕੇ, ਪਤਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਲੱਗਦਾ, ਕਿੱਥੇ ਚਲਾ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਅਚਰਜ ਕੌਤਕ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਹੈ। (ਪਰ ਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ!) ਤੂੰ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਹਰ ਥਾਂ ਮੌਜੂਦ ਹੈਂ।੬।

Read the above Vaakas carefully. First it is stated that He is known only when conceit departs, He creates and destroys His creation and through Guru Shabada He exalts and elevates too; however, in the next Vaakas, Guru talks about the soul. After death, as the body is left to become dust, where the soul goes, it is unknown. Only Akalpurakh knows what occurs after death because it is not possible to explain what happens to every one. His pervading - power all over is amazing itself. How His ordinance works in context of a departed soul, is not surely known. However, if we read, Asa Dee Vaar, Guru Nanak Dev narrates in detail what happens after death to those who chose Maya over the Creator. In the above Vaakas, in a broad sense, he is saying that we just cannot express His ordinance. In other words, we just cannot say for surely how the Creator deals with every one after death. It doesn’t mean Guru is saying that the soul just doesn’t exist. In the last Vaakas of this Shabada Guru offers a prayer to have His grace to get attached to His Naam which brings peace. The stability of the mind and the soul while being alive and after death is sought in Gurbani repeatedly. Now let us look at Vaakas from Asa Dee Vaar [462] on 464 Sri Guru Granth Sahib

ਪਉੜੀ ॥ ਆਪੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਭੋਗ ਭੋਗਿ ਕੈ ਹੋਇ ਭਸਮੜਿ ਭਉਰੁ ਸਿਧਾਇਆ ॥ ਵਡਾ ਹੋਆ ਦੁਨੀਦਾਰੁ ਗਲਿ ਸੰਗਲੁ ਘਤਿ ਚਲਾਇਆ ॥ ਅਗੈ ਕਰਣੀ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਵਾਚੀਐ ਬਹਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਕਰਿ ਸਮਝਾਇਆ ॥ ਥਾਉ ਨ ਹੋਵੀ ਪਉਦੀਈ ਹੁਣਿ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਕਿਆ ਰੂਆਇਆ ॥ ਮਨਿ ਅੰਧੈ ਜਨਮੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥੩॥
Pa▫oṛī. Āpīnĥai bẖog bẖog kai ho▫e bẖasmaṛ bẖa▫ur siḏẖā▫i▫ā. vadā ho▫ā ḏunīḏār gal sangal gẖaṯ cẖalā▫i▫ā. Agai karṇī kīraṯ vācẖī▫ai bahi lekẖā kar samjẖā▫i▫ā. Thā▫o na hovī pa▫uḏī▫ī huṇ suṇī▫ai ki▫ā rū▫ā▫i▫ā. Man anḏẖai janam gavā▫i▫ā. ||3||

In Essence: When the soul goes away, after having enjoyed revelment, the body becomes heap of ashes. When the mortal dies, the restrained soul is led away [for justice]. The soul’s account of good and bad deeds is explained. The faulty one [phony] gets no place [of stability], and there the bewailing of the soul is not cared about. Thus, the blind (in Maya) mortal wastes his life.

To understand above stanza, we must look at the second stanza of Asa Dee Vaar as well, here it is:

ਪਉੜੀ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੀਅ ਉਪਾਇ ਕੈ ਲਿਖਿ ਨਾਵੈ ਧਰਮੁ ਬਹਾਲਿਆ ॥ ਓਥੈ ਸਚੇ ਹੀ ਸਚਿ ਨਿਬੜੈ ਚੁਣਿ ਵਖਿ ਕਢੇ ਜਜਮਾਲਿਆ ॥ ਥਾਉ ਨ ਪਾਇਨਿ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ਮੁਹ ਕਾਲ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਦੋਜਕਿ ਚਾਲਿਆ ॥ ਤੇਰੈ ਨਾਇ ਰਤੇ ਸੇ ਜਿਣਿ ਗਏ ਹਾਰਿ ਗਏ ਸਿ ਠਗਣ ਵਾਲਿਆ ॥ ਲਿਖਿ ਨਾਵੈ ਧਰਮੁ ਬਹਾਲਿਆ ॥੨॥
Pa▫oṛī. Nānak jī▫a upā▫e kai likẖ nāvai ḏẖaram bahāli▫ā. Othai sacẖe hī sacẖ nibṛai cẖuṇ vakẖ kadẖe jajmāli▫ā. Thā▫o na pā▫in kūṛi▫ār muh kālĥai ḏojak cẖāli▫ā. Ŧerai nā▫e raṯe se jiṇ ga▫e hār ga▫e sė ṯẖagaṇ vāli▫ā. Likẖ nāvai ḏẖaram bahāli▫ā. ||2||

In Essence: After creating beings, they are made subject to Dharma - judgment. Under that, based on the truth, decision is taken and faulty ones are taken out, and they get no place [of stability]; they get dishonored through His justice, and go through miseries. Who are absorbed in your Name oh Prabh! They pass [that test], the cheaters meet the defeat. Thus Almighty has established the Justice system.

What is this all talk about justice? Indeed, there is His justice established [stanza 2]. It is stated in very simple language that after death the soul is taken to have justice as per the deeds it has done through the given body, and without caring of the bewailing of the soul, justice is served. What kind of justice, Guru doesn’t specify that save for hinting about bad time; it is again left to Him because it is His realm. Now talking about the incarnation, why Guru Nanak Dev is saying all that stuff which occurs after death? Why he has to go into so much detail about what occurs after death? As stated earlier, there are some people who say that Gurus and Bhagatas didn’t want to get into controversy about all this so they kept giving references about the incarnation. Wait a minute, where is the proof of this assumption? We all know that in their Bani, they openly question many prevailed concepts and beliefs without caring about the controversies or anger of other people with opposite views, then, why only in case of “incarnation” they should become hesitant. In reality, they have a concept of the Creator, His Ordinance and a path that leads to merge with the Creator; they believe that there are those who are into Maya, and He keeps them into Maya through various existences; there are those who are into His love, He takes them out of this cycle to keep them with Him. How it occurs, they keep explaining through various Shabadas.

If the concept of incarnation is taken out of Gurbani, how the importance of “Naam – Simran” can be defined? In Gurbani, the “Naam – Simran” is done solely to have His grace to get united with Him and not to get into a womb again. As a matter of fact, Sikhi is not designed to satisfy scientific minds; it is all about experience of the Guru who envisions the Creator, and enables the followers to envision Him certainly within and out [If the followers sincerely follow the Guru].

Remaining in Maya - love leads to various existences. Once it is abandoned, the Creator is envisioned. If He is envisioned, interest in Maya goes away; when interest in Maya is gone, going into existence stops.

Systematically Guru Nanak Dev expresses this whole concept of His path on 1030 Sri Guru Granth Sahib

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਗੁਰ ਬਚਨੀ ਬੋਲਹੁ ॥ ਸੰਤ ਸਭਾ ਮਹਿ ਇਹੁ ਰਸੁ ਟੋਲਹੁ ॥ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਖੋਜਿ ਲਹਹੁ ਘਰੁ ਅਪਨਾ ਬਹੁੜਿ ਨ ਗਰਭ ਮਝਾਰਾ ਹੇ ॥੪॥
Rām nām gur bacẖnī bolhu. Sanṯ sabẖā mėh ih ras tolahu. Gurmaṯ kẖoj lahhu gẖar apnā bahuṛ na garabẖ majẖārā he. ||4||

In Essence: Utter the Name of all pervading Creator through Guru Shabada; find His Name – nectar in the company of Saints. Find your real place [with our origin, the Creator] through Guru - guidance and you will not caste into a womb again. [In the end a hint is given about stability of the soul]

(ਹੇ ਭਾਈ!) ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰੋ (ਆਤਮਕ ਆਨੰਦ ਮਿਲੇਗਾ, ਪਰ ਇਹ ਆਨੰਦ ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਵਿਚ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ) ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਵਿਚ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਇਸ ਆਨੰਦ ਦੀ ਭਾਲ ਕਰੋ। ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਮਤਿ ਤੇ ਤੁਰ ਕੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਉਹ ਆਤਮਕ ਟਿਕਾਣਾ ਲੱਭੋ ਜਿਥੇ ਪਹੁੰਚ ਕੇ ਮੁੜ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦੇ ਗੇੜ ਵਿਚ ਨਾਹ ਪੈਣਾ ਪਏ।੪।

Gurmat revolves around this concept which is based on the idea of suffering through bonds of Maya and going through existences; it also gives a solution to end both kinds of sufferings --- Maya bonds and various existences. In above Vaakas, in a nut shell, Guru Nanak Dev has explained his path and the goal of life. Please remember that he refers here to incarnation also because that is a part of his ideology. Why it is repeatedly said that nothing goes with us, there is a valid reason behind that, please read on 191Sri Guru Granth Sahib Mehla 5:

ਸਾਸਿ ਸਾਸਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਮਨਹਿ ਸਮਾਲੇ ॥ ਸੋ ਧਨੁ ਸੰਚਹੁ ਜੋ ਚਾਲੈ ਨਾਲੇ ॥੩॥
Sās sās parabẖ manėh samāle. So ḏẖan sancẖahu jo cẖālai nāle. ||3||

In Essence: With every breath, keep Prabh in the heart, gather the wealth [the wealth of Naam] that goes with you.

Where His Name goes with the soul?

(ਹੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈ!) ਹਰੇਕ ਸਾਹ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਸਾਂਭ ਰੱਖ। ਉਹ (ਨਾਮ-) ਧਨ ਇਕੱਠਾ ਕਰ ਜੇਹੜਾ ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਲ ਸਾਥ ਕਰੇ।੩।

Above, it is stated clearly that this worldly wealth doesn’t go with us, we see that. How His Name goes with us? Where we go? If there is no incarnation, what Guru ji is talking about here? Isn’t all this about after death scenario?

In Anand Sahib, in very simple way, Guru states that nobody goes with the soul as it departs but Guru –teachings and love of Akalpurakh: On 918 Mehla 3

ਏ ਮਨ ਪਿਆਰਿਆ ਤੂ ਸਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸਮਾਲੇ ॥ ਏਹੁ ਕੁਟੰਬੁ ਤੂ ਜਿ ਦੇਖਦਾ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਤੇਰੈ ਨਾਲੇ ॥ ਸਾਥਿ ਤੇਰੈ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਾਲਿ ਕਿਉ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਈਐ ॥ ਐਸਾ ਕੰਮੁ ਮੂਲੇ ਨ ਕੀਚੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਅੰਤਿ ਪਛੋਤਾਈਐ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਕਾ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਸੁਣਿ ਤੂ ਹੋਵੈ ਤੇਰੈ ਨਾਲੇ ॥ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਮਨ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਤੂ ਸਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸਮਾਲੇ ॥੧੧॥
Ė man pi▫āri▫ā ṯū saḏā sacẖ samāle. Ėhu kutamb ṯū jė ḏekẖ▫ḏā cẖalai nāhī ṯerai nāle. Sāth ṯerai cẖalai nāhī ṯis nāl ki▫o cẖiṯ lā▫ī▫ai. Aisā kamm mūle na kīcẖai jiṯ anṯ pacẖẖoṯā▫ī▫ai. Saṯgurū kā upḏes suṇ ṯū hovai ṯerai nāle. Kahai Nānak man pi▫āre ṯū saḏā sacẖ samāle. ||11||


In Essence: Oh my mind! Always contemplate on the Eternal Almighty. This family you behold will not go with you (as you depart from here, it won't). When it will not depart along with you, why to get attached to it? Never do a deed upon which one has to repent eventually. Listen to True Guru Instruction, it shall be with you. Nanak says oh dear mind! Always meditate on the Eternal Akalpurakh.

Again my question is, where do we go after death? Why only Guru – teachings and His love go with us?

These answers can be found in the following Guru Vaakas on 62 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Sri Raag, Mehla 1

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ਚਿਤੇ ਦਿਸਹਿ ਧਉਲਹਰ ਬਗੇ ਬੰਕ ਦੁਆਰ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਮਨ ਖੁਸੀ ਉਸਾਰਿਆ ਦੂਜੈ ਹੇਤਿ ਪਿਆਰਿ ॥ ਅੰਦਰੁ ਖਾਲੀ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਬਿਨੁ ਢਹਿ ਢੇਰੀ ਤਨੁ ਛਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1. Cẖiṯe ḏisėh ḏẖa▫ulhar bage bank ḏu▫ār. Kar man kẖusī usāri▫ā ḏūjai heṯ pi▫ār. Anḏar kẖālī parem bin dẖėh dẖerī ṯan cẖẖār. ||1||

In Essence: The entire painted mansion with white - washed beautiful doors we see, were constructed to please the mind in Maya – love [It was all a game of Maya – love]. This body crumbles without the love of Akalpurakh.
Interestingly, both the beautiful mansions and body devoted to Maya crumble here [there is nothing in them that a departing soul can take with it], both don’t go with the soul; this idea is elaborated further in the next Guru Vaakas:

ਹੇ ਮਨ! ਜਿਵੇਂ ਬੜੇ ਚਾਉ ਨਾਲ ਉਸਾਰੇ ਹੋਏ ਚਿੱਤਰੇ ਹੋਏ ਮਹਲ-ਮਾੜੀਆਂ (ਸੁੰਦਰ) ਦਿੱਸਦੇ ਹਨ, ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਸਫ਼ੈਦ ਬਾਂਕੇ ਦਰਵਾਜ਼ੇ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ। (ਪਰ ਜੇ ਉਹ ਅੰਦਰੋਂ ਖ਼ਾਲੀ ਰਹਿਣ ਤਾਂ ਢਹਿ ਕੇ ਢੇਰੀ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਤਿਵੇਂ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਵਿਚ ਪਿਆਰ ਵਿਚ (ਇਹ ਸਰੀਰ) ਪਾਲੀਦਾ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਜੇ ਹਿਰਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਤੋਂ ਸੱਖਣਾ ਹੈ, ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਹੈ, ਤਾਂ ਇਹ ਸਰੀਰ ਢਹਿ ਕੇ ਢੇਰੀ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਵਿਅਰਥ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ)।੧।

ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਤਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਸਾਥਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਨੁ ਨਿਰਮਲੋ ਗੁਰੁ ਦਾਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Bẖā▫ī re ṯan ḏẖan sāth na ho▫e. Rām nām ḏẖan nirmalo gur ḏāṯ kare parabẖ so▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.

In Essence: Oh Brother! The body and the wealth do not accompany with anyone. The Name of All pervading Prabh is the only pure wealth which is gifted through Guru by Him. {Pause] [The word pure is used for His Name because unlike other wealth it goes with the soul, this is understood if the whole context is kept in the mind while reading these Guru Vaakas]


ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਇਹ ਸਰੀਰ ਇਹ ਧਨ (ਜਗਤ ਤੋਂ ਚਲਣ ਵੇਲੇ) ਨਾਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਨਿਭਦਾ। ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ (ਐਸਾ) ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਧਨ ਹੈ (ਜੋ ਸਦਾ ਨਾਲ ਨਿਭਦਾ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਇਹ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਹੈ) ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ ਉਹ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾਤਿ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ।੧।ਰਹਾਉ।


ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਨੁ ਨਿਰਮਲੋ ਜੇ ਦੇਵੈ ਦੇਵਣਹਾਰੁ ॥ ਆਗੈ ਪੂਛ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜਿਸੁ ਬੇਲੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥ ਆਪਿ ਛਡਾਏ ਛੁਟੀਐ ਆਪੇ ਬਖਸਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
Rām nām ḏẖan nirmalo je ḏevai ḏevaṇhār. Āgai pūcẖẖ na hova▫ī jis belī gur karṯār. Āp cẖẖadā▫e cẖẖutī▫ai āpe bakẖsaṇhār. ||2||

In Essence: The Name of Almighty is pure; one gets it if the Giver gives. Whose friends are the Guru and Akalpurakh, is not questioned hereafter because the Creator Himself saves the mortal and forgives.

Why His Name is pure wealth? It is so because it goes with the soul, unlike the wealth and the body. What does mean by “ਆਗੈ Āgai/ hereafter, next? It is about after life time.

ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਧਨ ਹੈ (ਤਦੋਂ ਹੀ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ) ਜੇ ਦੇਣ ਦੇ ਸਮਰੱਥ ਹਰੀ ਆਪ ਦੇਵੇ। (ਨਾਮ-ਧਨ ਹਾਸਲ ਕਰਨ ਵਿਚ) ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦਾ ਸਹਾਈ ਗੁਰੂ ਆਪ ਬਣੇ, ਕਰਤਾਰ ਆਪ ਬਣੇ, ਪਰਲੋਕ ਵਿਚ ਉਸ ਉੱਤੇ ਕੋਈ ਇਤਰਾਜ਼ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ। ਪਰ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਤੋਂ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਬਚਾਏ ਤਾਂ ਬਚ ਸਕੀਦਾ ਹੈ, ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਸ਼ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈ।੨।

Please note it down, first Guru states about the big things created in the love of Maya and then advises his followers that without His love everything crumbles {because of being perishable]. His Name only is pure wealth. The mortal who is lucky to have friendship [exceedingly being close] of Guru and the Creator, is free from any questioning to be occurred hereafter because the Creator Himself saves and forgives such mortal. This thought can become easier to understand if we recall the second and the third stanzas of Asa Dee Var quoted above in which Guru Nanak Dev says that one’s deeds are subject to His justice. Once, one gets involved in Him through Guru and ignore the Maya - love, this “hereafter – questioning” is eliminated. Now look at another Guru Vaakas to understand how after death, Maya – lovers appear looted; contrarily, Prabh - lovers loose nothing but gain by having His Name with them; these Vaakas are on 756 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Mehla 3

ਸੁਇਨਾ ਰੁਪਾ ਪਾਪ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਸੰਚੀਐ ਚਲੈ ਨ ਚਲਦਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਨਾਲਿ ਨ ਚਲਸੀ ਸਭ ਮੁਠੀ ਜਮਕਾਲਿ ॥੨੭॥
Su▫inā rupā pāp kar kar sancẖī▫ai cẖalai na cẖalḏi▫ā nāl. viṇ nāvai nāl na cẖalsī sabẖ muṯẖī jamkāl. ||27||

In Essence: Gold and Silver [wealth] are gathered by committing sins; however, they don’t go with [when one dies]. Except the Name of Akalpurakh, nothing goes with the mortals, all are plundered by death.

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! (ਕਈ ਕਿਸਮ ਦੇ) ਪਾਪ ਕਰ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਸੋਨਾ ਚਾਂਦੀ (ਆਦਿਕ ਧਨ) ਇਕੱਠਾ ਕਰੀਦਾ ਹੈ, ਪਰ (ਜਗਤ ਤੋਂ) ਤੁਰਨ ਵੇਲੇ (ਉਹ ਧਨ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੇ) ਨਾਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਂਦਾ। ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਹੋਰ ਕੋਈ ਭੀ ਚੀਜ਼ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਵੇਗੀ। ਨਾਮ ਤੋਂ ਸੁੰਞੀ ਸਾਰੀ ਲੁਕਾਈ ਆਤਮਕ ਮੌਤ ਦੀ ਹੱਥੀ ਲੁੱਟੀ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ (ਆਪਣਾ ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਲੁਟਾ ਬੈਠਦੀ ਹੈ)।੨੭।

ਮਨ ਕਾ ਤੋਸਾ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਹੈ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਰਖਹੁ ਸਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਲਿ ॥ ਏਹੁ ਖਰਚੁ ਅਖੁਟੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਿਬਹੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੨੮॥
Man kā ṯosā har nām hai hirḏai rakẖahu samĥāl. Ėhu kẖaracẖ akẖut hai gurmukẖ nibhai nāl. ||28||

In Essence: For the journey, Prabh’s Name is real stock, hold on to it carefully. This stock is inexhaustible and it goes a long way with The Guru – followers.

In the above Vaakas, Guru leaves no doubt about what is the need of the soul after death. The rationality cannot help to comprehend the experienced fact.

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੇ ਮਨ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਹੀ (ਜੀਵਨ-ਸਫ਼ਰ ਦਾ) ਖ਼ਰਚ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਸਫ਼ਰ-ਖ਼ਰਚ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਸਾਂਭ ਕੇ ਰੱਖੋ। ਇਹ ਖ਼ਰਚ ਕਦੇ ਮੁੱਕਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ। ਜੇਹੜਾ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਦੱਸੇ ਰਸਤੇ ਉਤੇ ਤੁਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ ਇਹ ਸਦਾ ਲਈ ਸਾਥ ਬਣਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ।੨੮।

Why those people who gather wealth get robbed off it by the death? Why Guru – followers, who hold on to His Name, are not affected in this regard when they also face the death? The answer is very simple: when Maya – lovers depart, they leave behind everything they gathered by committing so many sins; however, Guru - followers lose nothing when they depart because they don’t gather or get attached to it to worry about it, but they take His Name with them, and thus His Name helps them in the end too. Again, “after death – talk” is done here. In Gurmat, in fact, the concept of incarnation is stressed. It is repeatedly said that those who do not hold on to His Name are subject to cycle of birth and death. It is impossible to deny it through guessed explanations. On 761 – 762 Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Mehla 5, reasons are given for this incarnation belief:

ਸੋਧਤ ਸੋਧਤ ਸੋਧਿ ਤਤੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿਆ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਨਾਹਿ ਸਰਪਰ ਹਾਰਿਆ ॥੪॥
Soḏẖaṯ soḏẖaṯ soḏẖ ṯaṯ bīcẖāri▫ā. Nām binā sukẖ nāhi sarpar hāri▫ā. ||4||

In Essence: By repeatedly analyzing it, I have understood this fact that without Prabh’s Name, there is no peace but a sure defeat.

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਚੰਗੀ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਪੜਤਾਲ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਨਿਰਨਾ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਅਸੀਂ ਇਸ ਅਸਲੀਅਤ ਉਤੇ ਪਹੁੰਚੇ ਹਾਂ ਕਿ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਆਤਮਕ ਆਨੰਦ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲ ਸਕਦਾ। ਨਾਮ ਤੋਂ ਵਾਂਜੇ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਜ਼ਰੂਰ (ਮਨੁੱਖਾ ਜਨਮ ਦੀ ਬਾਜ਼ੀ) ਹਾਰ ਕੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ।੪।


ਆਵਹਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਮਰਿ ਮਰਿ ਜਨਮਤੇ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਬੂਝੇ ਸਭੁ ਵਾਦਿ ਜੋਨੀ ਭਰਮਤੇ ॥੫॥
Āvahi jāhi anek mar mar janmaṯe. Bin būjẖe sabẖ vāḏ jonī bẖarmaṯe. ||5||

In Essence: Many come and go and repeatedly die to be born again. Without knowing the Creator, all their efforts are useless; consequently, they wander through existences.

(ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਤੋਂ ਖੁੰਝ ਕੇ) ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ (ਮੁੜ ਮੁੜ) ਜੰਮਦੇ ਹਨ ਮਰਦੇ ਹਨ। ਆਤਮਕ ਮੌਤ ਸਹੇੜ ਸਹੇੜ ਕੇ ਮੁੜ ਮੁੜ ਜਨਮ ਲੈਂਦੇ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ। (ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੀ) ਸੂਝ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਸਾਰਾ ਹੀ ਉੱਦਮ ਵਿਅਰਥ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਭਟਕਦੇ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ।੫।


By all means, what Guru says here cannot be verified with any rational measure, but being His followers, we must believe what he says if we want to be successful in pursuing Guru – path. Being Sikhs, If rationality still bothers us, it is obvious that our rationality is our Guru not Guru Nanak dev. If incarnation is not a part of Sikhi, then why in Gurbani, inevitable - questioning after death on the deeds is refereed to? If this wealth and body do not go with us, why His Name and Guru – teachings said to go with us? Where we go with His Name? Why so much stress is given on “after – death”? Why detachment to Maya is mandatory? Why Guru also talks about a state of mind where acknowledgment of the genders disappears [685 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Mehla 1]? Why Guru stresses on “luck”? In rationality, there is no luck but coincidence. In Gurbani, destiny is repeatedly referred. Besides, His grace and meeting of the Guru, are left solely on “luck.”

There is no proof in Sri Guru Granth Sahib where Guru speaks against the concept of incarnation; instead, Guru verifies it repeatedly. Those people who truly want to follow The Guru, must understand this fact once for all that without attaching to Him, our souls do not get stability [That is what Guru says repeatedly]. Those who are denial about this concept of incarnation, let them enjoy the swings of their own coined philosophy. Remember the following Guru Vaakas on 40 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Mehla 4

ਬਿਨੁ ਭਾਗਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਨਾ ਮਿਲੈ ਘਰਿ ਬੈਠਿਆ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਨਿਤ ਪਾਸਿ ॥ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਦੁਖੁ ਭਰਮੁ ਹੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਪੜਦਾ ਦੂਰਿ ਪਈਆਸਿ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭੇਟੇ ਕੰਚਨੁ ਨਾ ਥੀਐ ਮਨਮੁਖੁ ਲੋਹੁ ਬੂਡਾ ਬੇੜੀ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੩॥
Bin bẖāgā saṯgur nā milai gẖar baiṯẖi▫ā nikat niṯ pās. Anṯar agi▫ān ḏukẖ bẖaram hai vicẖ paṛ▫ḏā ḏūr pa▫ī▫ās. Bin saṯgur bẖete kancẖan nā thī▫ai manmukẖ lohu būdā beṛī pās. ||3||

In Essence: Without luck, True Guru is not met even if one sits daily near Guru in the house. [Why? The answer follows]. Because within is ignorance and doubts, a curtain is drawn, and the Creator appears far away. Without meeting [truly meeting means following True Guru without a doubt] True Guru, the mortal doesn’t become gold [doesn’t obtain virtues]. Without following Guru, like the iron, the mortal drowns even though the Guru - boat is close by.[It is matter of following the True Guru sincerely]

ਚੰਗੀ ਕਿਸਮਤਿ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਦਾ (ਤੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਮਿਲਾਪ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ, ਭਾਵੇਂ) ਸਾਡੇ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਬੈਠਾ ਹਰ ਵੇਲੇ ਸਾਡੇ ਨੇੜੇ ਹੈ, ਸਾਡੇ ਕੋਲ ਹੈ। ਜਿਸ ਜੀਵ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਅਗਿਆਨਤਾ (ਦੇ ਹਨੇਰੇ) ਦਾ ਦੁੱਖ ਟਿਕਿਆ ਰਹੇ, ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੀ ਭਟਕਣੀ ਲੱਗੀ ਰਹੇ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨਾਲੋਂ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਦਾ ਤੇ ਭਟਕਣਾ ਦਾ ਪਰਦਾ ਬਣਿਆ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਉਸ ਦੀ ਜਿੰਦ ਅੰਦਰ-ਵੱਸਦੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨਾਲੋਂ ਦੂਰ ਪਈ ਰਹਿੰਦੀ ਹੈ। ਆਪਣੇ ਮਨ ਦੇ ਪਿੱਛੇ ਤੁਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਮਨੁੱਖ (ਮਾਨੋ) ਲੋਹਾ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਗੁਰੂ-ਪਾਰਸ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲਣ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਸੋਨਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਣ ਸਕਦਾ, ਗੁਰੂ-ਬੇੜੀ ਉਸ ਮਨਮੁਖ-ਲੋਹੇ ਦੇ ਪਾਸ ਹੀ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਉਹ (ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਨਦੀ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ) ਡੁੱਬਦਾ ਹੈ।੩।

Sikhi s not about science, Sikhi is about a spiritual experience with the Creator. It is designed to be one with the Creator from whom we all emanate. It is explained what is the cause of this separation, and it is also explained how one gets out of Creator’s staged show. Whom He keeps in the show are those who are totally lost in Maya through various existences; even while following Guru they never get rid of their own thinking which is deeply cemented in their intellectually flavored conceit. Those whom He takes out of this show with His grace are the ones who, even being very much present in His Maya Show, remain detached to it by rejecting its influences and giving up their own thoughts. Those who want to convince the scientists regarding Sikhi must understand that no religion or a faith or the concept of the Creator is based on scientific standard anyway. It is a Message Guru Nanak Dev directly received from the Creator by experiencing Him [Majh Kee Vaar Stanza 27 150 Sri Guru Granth Sahib] and has passed on to others.

A dear friend of mine wrote to me lately: Gurbani is not for preaching but experiencing. Indeed, it is only for experiencing.

Punjabi interpretation is by Dr Sahib Singh Ji

G Singh
From the Book "Guru Message" under publication.
Posted by G.Singh

Sadh Sangat,

First and foremost, I want to thank G.Singh ji for this excellent thoughtful essay and Dalbirk ji for posting it.

This gives us a lot to contemplate, think and makes us ask ourselves how we should conduct ourselves in the only life we know.

As, I mentioned in my earlier post that I would talk about the essay in various parts by discussing the whole shabad in each part.

Before I do that, I seek your help in understanding certain things which I put in the following questions. I must admit that I have sent the same questions to G. Singh ji and hope to get his response which with his permission, I will post them here. After all we are Sadh Sangat and it is our duty to interact, exchange Gurmat ideas in order to learn from each other.


1. What is the difference between incarnation and reincarnation?

2. Do our Gurus talk about the former-incarnation- on which the above essay is based on or about the latter?

3. Can Gursoch ( how the Shabad is understood) be different for different Sikhs about the same Shabad as long as it is based on Gurmat ideals given to us in SGGS, our only Guru?

4. How does one reconcile if they are different because we all know that our Gurus did not leave any interpretation of Gurbani in the form of prose?

I would urge all for their insights, input and Gurmat wisdom.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh
 

BhagatSingh

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Apr 24, 2006
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Re:

Bhagat Singh ji

I have moved your last reply to this thread.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/32050-can-the-modern-mind-comprehend-gurbani.html

The only minds we have to read and interpret gurbani, or to have this discussion about Reincarnation, are the minds we now have. Be we merchants, professors, biochemists, students, and the like. Of course we have filters. there is no getting around it. So did each and every person who every wrote a translation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, or the author of Guru Granth Darpan, Professor Sahib Singh. He wrote from the perspective of the late 19th and early 20th Century, as a Sanskirt scholar and activist in the Gurdwara Reform Movement. Thus it is unworkable to make "filters" cause for dismissing individual points of view.
I disagree with that notion; I don't like the attitude where one thinks that "there is no getting around to it". in fact we CAN get around it.

Do you think there is no difference between the interpretation done by the average "Joeinder" and a person who has studied history around Guru Sahibs time and has learned Sanskrit?

Filters are present in both but the latter has reduced them. He can work around most of his because of his qualifications, while Joeinder doesn't have the resources to do so. Now read the first paragraph of that post. I am precisely talking about this kind of reduction in filters and not a removal of them. Removal is just not going to happen... duh! lol

I have asked you to give your vichaar of a shabad rather than quoting one line, so that the forum can understand how you have responded to points rasied in previous posts by me and other members.

However, you have been a bit unfair.Your reply so changed the basic direction of the discussion that one would have to debate each and every new and unique presumption you have introduced, before being able to circle back to the thread itself. By that time the original direction of the thread would be lost.

Please do give us your vichaar of the shabad. Be sensitive to issues raised by others. Do not change the framework of conversation in a way that absolves you from being responsive, and rather gives you a way to redefine the debate. Thanks.
I apologize if you found my reply unfair but did you not ask me to elaborate? So then be patient...

Ok now that that's (literally) out of the way. Onto the shabad icecreammunda

My explanation is meant to me supplementary to the quoted shabad's translation.
Aasaa, First Mehl:
If a beggar cries out at the door, the Master hears it in His Mansion.
Whether He receives him or pushes him away, it is the Gift of the Lord's Greatness. ||1||
Guru Nanak says: Good and Bad things are gifts of God.

"Gift of the Lord's greatness" = In other words, in this world of multiplicity, we perceive intellectual distinctions. Like a ray of light splitting off into the rainbow when passing through a prism. Our mind is like that prism which sees the One as many. The greatness lies in the power of Maya that is associated with the One. Maya creates the prism.


Recognize the Lord's Light within all, and do not consider social class or status; there are no classes or castes in the world hereafter. ||1||Pause||
God's essence is in all living things. Do not worry about social status because that does not exist outside of this world of multiplicity.


He Himself acts, and He Himself inspires us to act.
He Himself considers our complaints.
Since You, O Creator Lord, are the Doer,
why should I submit to the world? ||2||
So what we perceive as a world of multiplicity, is actually coming from the one. Thus no need to "submit to the world".


You Yourself created and You Yourself give.
You Yourself eliminate evil-mindedness;
by Guru's Grace, You come to abide in our minds,
and then, pain and darkness are dispelled from within. ||3||
By Guru's Grace (through Bhagati) that prism is broken, and we see one ray of light instead of multiple distinct rays.

"come to abide in minds" - we get a direct experience of the Oneness

He Himself infuses love for the Truth.
Unto others, the Truth is not bestowed.
If He bestows it upon someone, says Nanak, then, in the world hereafter, that person is not called to account. ||4||3||
Once the prism is broken, we see the Oneness and will not suffer through reincarnation.
"person not called to account" - that's only done if the person is still in samsara (cycle of births and deaths)
 
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spnadmin

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Re:

Bhagat Singh ji

How do you decide who is the average "Joeinder?" And how do you decide who is the authority you want to respect?

Thanks for your vichaar. More later.
 

BhagatSingh

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Apr 24, 2006
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Naryanjot kaur ji
People with qualifications in Sikh history and languages are good candidates for the authority you want to respect. Those with an additional background in Eastern Philosophy are better candidates. Those who are also disinterested and objectively studying texts are even better.
Over time as interpretations converging from independent sources (from good candidates) are (probably) going to be more accurate.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
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Jun 17, 2004
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Naryanjot kaur ji
People with qualifications in Sikh history and languages are good candidates for the authority you want to respect. Those with an additional background in Eastern Philosophy are better candidates. Those who are also disinterested and objectively studying texts are even better.
Over time as interpretations converging from independent sources (from good candidates) are (probably) going to be more accurate.


And what criteria do you propose to judge the qualifications of these candidates? And by what publicly vetted process do you plan to gain consensus? And how do you propose to find a consensus or demonstrate that a consensus is there?

You still have not told me who the average "joeinder" is. winkingmundathanks
 

BhagatSingh

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Apr 24, 2006
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And what criteria do you propose to judge the qualifications of these candidates? And by what publicly vetted process do you plan to gain consensus? And how do you propose to find a consensus or demonstrate that a consensus is there?
Well if they have studied Sikh History, Indian Languages and Eastern Philosophy formally that would be awesome.
I do not really plan on getting a consensus. I am not sure what a consensus has to do with anything I have said.

You still have not told me who the average "joeinder" is. thanks
I am the average Joeinder. icecreammunda I only have a bucket full from the vast oceans of knowledge I need to grasp (that is knowledge of Sikh History, Languages and Eastern Philosophy) before I can make accurate historical interpretations.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
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Well if they have studied Sikh History, Indian Languages and Eastern Philosophy formally that would be awesome.
I do not really plan on getting a consensus. I am not sure what a consensus has to do with anything I have said.

I am the average Joeinder. icecreammunda I only have a bucket full from the vast oceans of knowledge I need to grasp (that is knowledge of Sikh History, Languages and Eastern Philosophy) before I can make accurate historical interpretations.

Bhagat ji

I am glad you clarified. It is always amazing how many noted and/or accepted scholars of Gurbani do not have academic credentials in History, languages or eastern Philosophy. In fact it would be worth the effort to do an analysis just to see how inter-disciplinary and multi-discplinary Sikh scholarship is.

My concern would be that if one waits until one has conquered the ocean, one will never realise what has collected within the bucket. I.E., you will never begin a serious programme of vichaar and hold it out for others to consider, question and evaluate.

I was asking about a consensus because at least in academic and scholarly domains finding a critical mass of people schooled in a subject is usually the way in which works of scholarship are agreed on as scholarship.
 
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