Reincarnation

Tejwant Singh · Sep 2, 2010

BhagatSingh said:
Tejwant Singh ji,
I understand you so far, please continue.

Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have said what I had to say and even asked you a question.

So, please carry on.

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant Singh · Sep 2, 2010

Santokh Singh1989 said:
I have a few questions, if i may humbly ask them, for those people who do not believe in transmigration and/or reincarnation in the traditional sense, (traditonal sense being the body dies and as per their karma, their soul transfers to another life form, be it plant, animal, human, etc). They will be straightforward.

What do you believe happens to the soul after the body dies?

Where does it go if anywhere? and

Is there any such thing as negetive reprocutions for our actions outside of the life we currently live?

Thank you.

Regards.

Santokh Singh ji,

Guru Fateh. Welcome to the forum which is like a perfect family. By that I mean is, that disagreements can only happen in a perfect family and they are also the way of learning process. After all we are all Sikhs,learners, seekers.

Secondly, the first and second words in SGGS, our only Guru, indicate what we as Sikhs,seekers are looking for. Ik Ong Kaar= One Source of all there is, SatNaam= Truth is its manifestation. Then the first pauri of Jap what is normally known as Japji describes this manifestation of Truth.

You have used a very interesting and commonly used word in dogmatic religions which is Believe.

Believe has many meanings as I am sure you are aware of but in the religious sense it means something that can not be proven, hence more likely not true, like Hell and Heaven as real places believed by many dogmatic religions.

Truth stands on its own. It needs no belief as the Mool Mantar and Japji then the rest of SGGS, our only Guru, show us.

Now, coming back to your original question, I have said this many times and will repeat again that Reincarnation is just a fancy word for recycling. The Awe! & The Wow! factors that we are surrounded by whether organic or inorganic and as Ik Ong Kaar's omnipresence is there in both, get recycled.

I tend to use a line by a song from the 60's group named, Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes:

"It is the law of the land whether you like it or you understand".

Now, if we are looking for a pragmatic answer, then the answer is that no one knows the real answer, it is all speculation, hence The Belief.

But the interesting part is that our Gurus give us the solution and the formula that teaches us how to get rid of this Belief. That is by being a Sikh and following Gurus' message in order to find connection with Ik Ong Kaar. All Shabads that talk about reincarnation in the SGGS, end with this indication of the solution.

Thanks for the question and by that allowing me to think aloud.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

spnadmin · Sep 2, 2010

jasleen ji/findingmywayji

My own thinking about the soul has been moving in the direction that you describe for almost a year now. Borrowed "energy" if you like or perhaps borrowed consciousness. But imho we give back what we borrow when we die. The soul's energy returns after we die. The soul reincarnates in that sense. However, my thinking at this time is that it is not a "personal" soul because it was not ours to begin with. That is where my thinking is at this time.

In other words I do not own or possess my soul but received it at birth from a much larger ocean of "energy." Still struggling with exactly what to call it, but "energy" is good enough for now.

Tejwant Singh · Sep 2, 2010

Narayanjot Kaur said:
jasleen ji/findingmywayji

My own thinking about the soul has been moving in the direction that you describe for almost a year now. Borrowed "energy" if you like or perhaps borrowed consciousness. But imho we give back what we borrow when we die. The soul's energy returns after we die. The soul reincarnates in that sense. However, my thinking at this time is that it is not a "personal" soul because it was not ours to begin with. That is where my thinking is at this time.

In other words I do not own or possess my soul but received it at birth from a much larger ocean of "energy." Still struggling with exactly what to call it, but "energy" is good enough for now.

Narayanjot ji,

Guru Fateh.

Well said and I agree with you both.

Soul is nothing but a lump of energy that leaves our bodies and merges with the bigger energy. Yes, it was borrowed/given/bestowed. So, now the question arises how does this lump of invisible energy suffer? Our human concept of soul suffering is a bit screwed up. What are we trying to say here? If some souls suffer and others do not, then are these lumps are all separate floating in the Universe like flying saucers? Does that mean that the suffering souls and the happy ones have some form?

Or are we just a tiny part of this Awe! and Wow! factors that surround us?

Just thinking aloud!

Tejwant Sinngh

spnadmin · Sep 2, 2010

Tejwant Singh said:
Narayanjot ji,

Guru Fateh.

Well said and I agree with you both.

Soul is nothing but a lump of energy that leaves our bodies and merges with the bigger energy. Yes, it was borrowed/given/bestowed. So, now the question arises how does this lump of invisible energy suffer? Our human concept of soul suffering is a bit screwed up. What are we trying to say here? If some souls suffer and others do not, then are these lumps are all separate floating in the Universe like flying saucers? Does that mean that the suffering souls and the happy ones have some form?

Or are we just a tiny part of this Awe! and Wow! factors that surround us?

Just thinking aloud!

Tejwant Sinngh

Tejwant ji

Thank you for opening up this angle to the discussion.

I do not think the soul suffers. Where did the idea of a suffering soul come from?

In my limited view: The mind suffers. Or better put, the mind thinks that it suffers.

findingmyway · Sep 2, 2010

I agree. So many shabads talk about controlling our mind that surely it follows that the mind is what is suffering. The mind suffers from delusion which causes barriers in thinking and therefore we think we are separated from Ik Onkar. However, if our soul is borrowed 'energy' it is never separated from the creator! Maybe Ik-jivan ji can elaborate on this further from the research? Does gurbani talk about the soul suffering in addition to the mind suffering?
Jasleen

Randip Singh · Sep 3, 2010

findingmyway said:
Is there anything good about the caste system? What is the purpose of it outside of repression? I know it didn't start as a repressive force but by Guru Ji's time it was too far down the path of repression to reverse it. It was no longer a socially functioning system. The quotes you gave in earlier posts in support of the caste system just say to me that God created all, not that the Guru's supported the caste system! Please expand on your view.......

Exactly!!

The Hindu notion of Karma and the notion of Reincarnation is fundemental to the caste system.

There is a Karmic order in Hinduism.

Rock>Plant>Animal>Untouchable>Sudra>Vaish>Kshatria> Brahmin

Sikhism doen not believe in a hierarchy and hence the caste system:

Animal
Plant >>>>>> Human
Rock

It sees Humans at one level, and everything else below that.

BhagatSingh · Sep 3, 2010

Randip Singh said:
<o> </o>
Come on, stop playing games welcomemunda
<o> </o>
The question is what YOU think so, not me!!!
<o> </o>
I do not have a problem with understanding why the Guru’s theory of Karma and Reincarnation was fundamentally different from Hinduism, but you clearly do.
<o> </o>
The question is why do YOU think they either:
<o> </o>
1) Opposed the evils of the caste system.
<o> </o>
Or
<o> </o>
2) Opposed the entire system.
<o> </o>
My view is clear. They didn’t believe in Karma (in the same way as Hinduism), hence they didn’t believe in the caste system.

Haha, I am not playing games. I was hoping to get some motivation from your reply to get up off my a** to look into this. I don't think I have a cogent argument to back up my view yet.

Anyways, as I have said earlier, that I am not sure whether Gurus are outright rejecting the caste system itself. I am certain though that they are rejecting the evils that stem from it.

dalbirk · Sep 3, 2010

Dear Tejwant Ji ,
G Singh ji has taken Prof Sahib Singh Ji's translations word by word . Can you just take some time out to see what Prof Sahib Singh Ji is saying in the following links . Kindly see the following link & search for the pages G Singh ji has mentioned .
http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/0762.html
Now IMHO each one of us on this forum SPN belives that Prof Sahib Singh's translation of SGGS as the ultimate we as Sikhs have come upto in last 300+ years . Can we search Guru Granth Darpan to see about not only transmigration of human soul ( also called by some as reincarnation of soul ) , the definition of SOUL , KARMA , CASTE SYSTEM seems like a whole can of worms have been opened . Sikhism is certainly not ATHEISM & soul is definitely not a BUNDLE OF ENERGY by any means .

Tejwant Singh · Sep 3, 2010

dalbirk said:
Dear Tejwant Ji ,
G Singh ji has taken Prof Sahib Singh Ji's translations word by word . Can you just take some time out to see what Prof Sahib Singh Ji is saying in the following links . Kindly see the following link & search for the pages G Singh ji has mentioned .
http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/0762.html
Now IMHO each one of us on this forum SPN belives that Prof Sahib Singh's translation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib as the ultimate we as Sikhs have come upto in last 300+ years . Can we search Guru Granth Darpan to see about not only transmigration of human soul ( also called by some as reincarnation of soul ) , the definition of SOUL , KARMA , CASTE SYSTEM seems like a whole can of worms have been opened . Sikhism is certainly not ATHEISM & soul is definitely not a BUNDLE OF ENERGY by any means .

Dalbirk ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the response but unfortunately, my questions posed have not been answered.

Once, when I found G. Singh's interpretation not up to par, I suggested him in this forum to consult Prof. Sahib Singh's Guru Granth Darpan. He said that he does not consult any translation because Guru has given him the understanding. I tried but could not locate the post. May be you or someone else can. But that is not the point.

The point is that your own contention claims that now after this essay by G Singh ji, the subject of reincarnation has been settled. It is more of a declaration on your part. But, unfortunately Sikhi is based on learning all our lives, so we learn and discover new things from Gurbani everyday. Do you mean that we should stop talking about Reincarnation which he has changed to incarnation because according to your declaration the dispute is settled, thanks to G. Singh ji? I am a bit baffled at your comments.I have no idea what you mean by that and would like you to elaborate it.

In fact, when I interpret a Shabad in my own words, at times after consulting most of the translations including Prof. Sahib's, I myself do not agree at times of his explanation, but consulting what others have written gives me some idea about the Shabad. The beauty of Sikhi is that nothing is etched on stone which can not be erased. If that were true, Guru Gobind Singh ji could have offered the interpretation of SGGS,our only Guru to us in the form of prose on a platter.But that did not happen,on purpose. The name Sikh means for us to question, learn, unlearn and relearn daily.

You write:

the definition of SOUL , KARMA , CASTE SYSTEM seems like a whole can of worms have been opened . Sikhism is certainly not ATHEISM & soul is definitely not a BUNDLE OF ENERGY by any means.

I would not call "SOUL,KARMA,CASTE SYSTEM seem like a whole can of worms has been opened" because they are parts of SGGS, our only Guru, but that is your choice of words,not mine.

No one said that Sikhism is Atheism, but to the contrary. The thread "Is there God", and posts written in there including by myself should have given you that indication. I have no idea if you have gone through the whole thread or not, if not, I would urge you to do that and comment on it, so we can learn from you.

Dalbarik ji, I have a request to make to you. Please explain in your own words what are SOUL AND KARMA? What do you understand by them? If SOUL is NOT a BUNDLE OF ENERGY, then what is it? It must be something or someone. Right?

Please, respond to my questions posted earlier, from your own Gurmat opinion including the one about the womb that I posted later.

Please participate as part of the Sadh Sangat so all of us collectively can learn from each other.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

findingmyway · Sep 20, 2010

G Singh Ji,
I have been pondering over your essay for sometime. The beauty of poetry is that it can be interpreted in many ways including literally or metaphorically. I am posting one of the shabads you took a tuk from and presenting an alternate understanding as I don't think things are written in black and white. If I have the wrong end of the stick, someone please let me know! This shabad is from panaa 717

ਟੋਡੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਮਾਈ ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਕੋ ਸੁਖੁ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਅਨੰਦ ਰਾਜ ਸੁਖੁ ਭੁਗਵੈ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਸਭ ਦੁਖੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ਕੋਟਿ ਜਨਮ ਕੇ ਕਿਲਬਿਖ ਨਾਸਹਿ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਪਾਵਨ ਤਨ ਮਨ ਸੁਖ ॥ ਦੇਖਿ ਸਰੂਪੁ ਪੂਰਨੁ ਭਈ ਆਸਾ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਭੇਟਤ ਉਤਰੀ ਭੁਖ ॥੧॥
ਚਾਰਿ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਅਸਟ ਮਹਾ ਸਿਧਿ ਕਾਮਧੇਨੁ ਪਾਰਜਾਤ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਰੁਖੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਨਿ ਗਹੀ ਸੁਖ ਸਾਗਰ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਫਿਰਿ ਗਰਭ ਨ ਧੁਖੁ ॥੨॥੧੦॥੨੯॥

ttoddee mehalaa 5 ||
maaee maerae man ko sukh ||
kott ana(n)dh raaj sukh bhugavai har simarath binasai sabh dhukh ||1|| rehaao ||
kott janam kae kilabikh naasehi simarath paavan than man sukh ||
dhaekh saroop pooran bhee aasaa dharasan bhaettath outharee bhukh ||1||
chaar padhaarathh asatt mehaa sidhh kaamadhhaen paarajaath har har rukh ||
naanak saran gehee sukh saagar janam maran fir garabh n dhhukh ||2||10||29||

Meditating on God (naam japna which is much more than the common concept of meditation but I don;t know how to express in English), I feel very happy and at peace, the happiness felt by a thousand kings. The body and mind (soul) become pure and I feel at peace (spiritual peace rather than worldly ease). Pain has departed (spiritual pain not worldly pain) Rahao. Previous 'sins' (I can't think of a better English word) are erased. With God's blessing, the worldly hunger that cannot be assuaged is eliminated. This is one of the soul's wishes, all of which are granted. God has given the 4 treasures of substance, wealth, blessing and treasure as well as 8 great supernatural powers as well as the elysian cow (from hindu mythology) as well as the benefactor of the mystical tree from the garden of Indra (hindu mythology). Whoever has taken God's support will not go through the cycle of lives.

The central theme of this shabad when viewed as a whole is not reincarnation but focussing on God. The rest of the shabad explains why this is important-to obtain peace and leave your worries behind. The final line which contains the reference to the womb also contains reference to mythological entities. We accept that they aren't real but are used as analogies to demonstrate the greatness of God. By that logic I see the womb also being used as an analogy in this line so people can understand better that the ups and downs of everyday life are equivalent to dying and rebirth. To escape this cycle is what we need to do so that we always remain at peace in our lives in a spiritual way. You have to work hard to achieve this and that is why the result is so wonderful for the rest of your life-you leave your past behind (previous sins)

:feedback:

spnadmin · Sep 20, 2010

findingmyway ji

Here is one reaction. Would you elaborate more on your vichaar of this line
ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਨਿ ਗਹੀ ਸੁਖ ਸਾਗਰ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਫਿਰਿ ਗਰਭ ਨ ਧੁਖੁ ॥੨॥੧੦॥੨੯॥
naanak saran gehee sukh saagar janam maran fir garabh n dhhukh ||2||10||29||

"janam maran" is what most take to be a direct reference to the cycle of life and death, and therefore reincarnation. You are coming up with a different emphasis from the surrounding words, from the context, to arrive at your understanding. It would be helpful if you would elaborate.

findingmyway · Sep 21, 2010

spnadmin said:
findingmyway ji

Here is one reaction. Would you elaborate more on your vichaar of this line
ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਨਿ ਗਹੀ ਸੁਖ ਸਾਗਰ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਫਿਰਿ ਗਰਭ ਨ ਧੁਖੁ ॥੨॥੧੦॥੨੯॥
naanak saran gehee sukh saagar janam maran fir garabh n dhhukh ||2||10||29||

"janam maran" is what most take to be a direct reference to the cycle of life and death, and therefore reincarnation. You are coming up with a different emphasis from the surrounding words, from the context, to arrive at your understanding. It would be helpful if you would elaborate.

Thank you for the feedback. I am still trying to figure out which is the best way to interpret gurbani so am thinking out aloud as to whether there is another way of looking at things! The emphasis is always on looking at the shabad as a whole and the I've often noticed that taking single lines is misleading-at the minimum a couplet should be analysed all together.

When you take the above tuk alone, it certainly does seem to support reincarnation when translated literally. However, when you look at the line above (the other half of the couplet) a lot of mythological concepts are alluded to so they are not meant to be taken literally. Then it could be possible that this half of the couplet is also an analogy and not meant to be taken literally? It has been proposed by several people that janam maran refers to the phases during our lifetime. So according to this theory we can then look at the pain from the womb as an analogy. I'll try and explain. The common man at that time would have mainly had experience of new life in humans and mammals (eg cows). Therefore, they would have had experience of new life from the womb only and may not have been aware of life from an egg, seed etc. People would also have been familiar with the pain of childbirth either from experience or from hearing the shouts (no drugs available then)! So in that respect it could be a metaphorical way of illustrating the pain of going through several joons as the tuk refers specifically to the pain from the womb. Guru ji was very good at writing in a way that the common man could understand, using concepts they were familiar with but giving them another meaning.

The other reason for looking at the line in this way is that the tuk you show above is not the rahao line. The rahao line is always the central theme of the shabad and the rest is merely illustrating the point. In the case of this shabad, therefore the shabad is about obtaining peace while meditating on God. Therefore, the tuk above can be read metaphorically rather than literally as it is an illustration rather than a central theme. Hope that makes sense! Secondly, what is the point of meditating if you are only going to be rewarded in another life. In the rahao tuk, the Guru seems to be happy as he has obtained peace now-he talks in the present tense not the future (however i am not an expert in grammar so may have got this wrong).

I am merely thinking out loud. If what I have said does not make sense, feel free to correct me! Thank you for the opportunity to expand on my musings. I do not know which is the correct interpretation. Perhaps someone more learned such as Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji can enlighten us further?
:confusedkudi:

p.s. Mai Ji-I would love a smiley of a gorilla scratching its head

spnadmin · Sep 21, 2010

findinmyway ji

Thank you for your time spent thinking about this out loud with us.

I hope it is clear that I deliberately pulled that line from the shabad so that it would be easier to see why there is a widely held opinion, that janam maran should be understood literally as reference to reincarnation.

On the other side of the debate, quite as you say, many times, references to the cycle of life and death, when separated from the context of the imagery of an entire shabad, and without reference to the rehao line, may lead to a literal understanding. And an acceptance of a literal reincarnation may not be correct.

Another question! Has the term jaanam maran ever appeared in the rehao line of a shabad.? I would be curious to find out.

It would make a difference if that were true.

Tejwant Singh · Sep 21, 2010

spnadmin said:
findingmyway ji

Here is one reaction. Would you elaborate more on your vichaar of this line
ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਨਿ ਗਹੀ ਸੁਖ ਸਾਗਰ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਫਿਰਿ ਗਰਭ ਨ ਧੁਖੁ ॥੨॥੧੦॥੨੯॥
naanak saran gehee sukh saagar janam maran fir garabh n dhhukh ||2||10||29||

"janam maran" is what most take to be a direct reference to the cycle of life and death, and therefore reincarnation. You are coming up with a different emphasis from the surrounding words, from the context, to arrive at your understanding. It would be helpful if you would elaborate.

Spnadmin ji,

Guru Fateh.

If we take the last tuk of the Shabad literally then it can only apply to women because giving birth is quite a painful thing which a man can never even fathom.

So, in other words, this Shabad has nothing to do with the Hindu belief of reincarnation which our Gurus did acknowledge and showed how deeply ingrained it is in the Hindu psyche.

Just thinking aloud!

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant Singh · Sep 21, 2010

findingmyway said:
Thank you for the feedback. I am still trying to figure out which is the best way to interpret gurbani so am thinking out aloud as to whether there is another way of looking at things! The emphasis is always on looking at the shabad as a whole and the I've often noticed that taking single lines is misleading-at the minimum a couplet should be analysed all together.

When you take the above tuk alone, it certainly does seem to support reincarnation when translated literally. However, when you look at the line above (the other half of the couplet) a lot of mythological concepts are alluded to so they are not meant to be taken literally. Then it could be possible that this half of the couplet is also an analogy and not meant to be taken literally? It has been proposed by several people that janam maran refers to the phases during our lifetime. So according to this theory we can then look at the pain from the womb as an analogy. I'll try and explain. The common man at that time would have mainly had experience of new life in humans and mammals (eg cows). Therefore, they would have had experience of new life from the womb only and may not have been aware of life from an egg, seed etc. People would also have been familiar with the pain of childbirth either from experience or from hearing the shouts (no drugs available then)! So in that respect it could be a metaphorical way of illustrating the pain of going through several joons as the tuk refers specifically to the pain from the womb. Guru ji was very good at writing in a way that the common man could understand, using concepts they were familiar with but giving them another meaning.

The other reason for looking at the line in this way is that the tuk you show above is not the rahao line. The rahao line is always the central theme of the shabad and the rest is merely illustrating the point. In the case of this shabad, therefore the shabad is about obtaining peace while meditating on God. Therefore, the tuk above can be read metaphorically rather than literally as it is an illustration rather than a central theme. Hope that makes sense! Secondly, what is the point of meditating if you are only going to be rewarded in another life. In the rahao tuk, the Guru seems to be happy as he has obtained peace now-he talks in the present tense not the future (however i am not an expert in grammar so may have got this wrong).

I am merely thinking out loud. If what I have said does not make sense, feel free to correct me! Thank you for the opportunity to expand on my musings. I do not know which is the correct interpretation. Perhaps someone more learned such as Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji can enlighten us further?

p.s. Mai Ji-I would love a smiley of a gorilla scratching its head

Findingway ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am not learned as Gyani ji but please allow me to give my 2 cent worth. Before we do that, I want to commend you for thinking out aloud and sharing your thirst to understand Gurbani or shall we put it to enjoy this multifaceted beautiful diamond. In order to do that, let's go back to the Shabad.

ਟੋਡੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਮਾਈ ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਕੋ ਸੁਖੁ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਅਨੰਦ ਰਾਜ ਸੁਖੁ ਭੁਗਵੈ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਸਭ ਦੁਖੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Hey Mum,my mind is content, serene, at peace. It is so much at peace that it seems like as if I have reigned (as a caring King) on millions of kingdoms. I have found the true connection with Ik Ong Kaar which has made me bear all my pains with a smile as if they never existed.

Rahao is the nectar of the flower and rest of the verses act like petals. So, the main idea is that once we find the true connection with The Source, the world becomes a blissful place.

ਕੋਟਿ ਜਨਮ ਕੇ ਕਿਲਬਿਖ ਨਾਸਹਿ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਪਾਵਨ ਤਨ ਮਨ ਸੁਖ ॥

Here is the twist. If we see the above verse in a literal sense then we admit (without any proof of course) that I have been a bad bad boy for millions of my previous lives which are unknown to me. I have no knowledge of these lives. Now the question arises that if I have been bad then by whose fault? Where was my Father- Ik Ong Kaar- then? Why did not He guide me towards the right path? After all it was His duty. Wasn't it? and Isn't it?

Now, if we take the above in a metaphorical manner then we can see this facet of the diamond through a completely different light.

So, let's try that. Shall we?

Mum, let me share another thing with you. I have come to the realisation that I have made millions of mistakes in my life. The admittance came after I found the connection with the ONE. And now due to this connection, I have been able to learn from my mistakes which has given me serenity, peace and it has taken all my guilts away. Finally, I am at peace with myself.

ਦੇਖਿ ਸਰੂਪੁ ਪੂਰਨੁ ਭਈ ਆਸਾ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਭੇਟਤ ਉਤਰੀ ਭੁਖ ॥੧॥

Mum, the connection is so strong that I can feel it in all the pores of my body and hence, my hunger for the worldly futile things has been taken care of. It is satiated. In other words, due to this connection with The Source, I have been able to lasso the five thieves.

ਚਾਰਿ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਅਸਟ ਮਹਾ ਸਿਧਿ ਕਾਮਧੇਨੁ ਪਾਰਜਾਤ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਰੁਖੁ ॥

The above is all about Hindu mythology as you have explained it so well in your post.

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਨਿ ਗਹੀ ਸੁਖ ਸਾਗਰ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਫਿਰਿ ਗਰਭ ਨ ਧੁਖੁ ॥੨॥੧੦॥੨੯॥

Again, the above verse talks about multiple things. In literal sense, it seems as if Guru Sahib is talking about mother's pains in giving birth and then more pains due to the premature death of the child ( the norm is that our parents die before we do due to the age) and this cycle repeats itself non stop.

But that is not the case. If we go back and check the Rahao, it mentions about our peace of mind and serenity.

Oh, Nanak. The one who has found the true connection with Ik Ong Kaar and has found peace in oneself, he/she does not have to feel the pains as a mother does when she gives births.

ttoddee mehalaa 5 ||
maaee maerae man ko sukh ||
kott ana(n)dh raaj sukh bhugavai har simarath binasai sabh dhukh ||1|| rehaao ||
kott janam kae kilabikh naasehi simarath paavan than man sukh ||
dhaekh saroop pooran bhee aasaa dharasan bhaettath outharee bhukh ||1||
chaar padhaarathh asatt mehaa sidhh kaamadhhaen paarajaath har har rukh ||
naanak saran gehee sukh saagar janam maran fir garabh n dhhukh ||2||10||29||

Jasleen ji,

You are right. This Shabad has nothing to do with reincarnation but all to do with the connection with Ik Ong Kaar.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Amarpal · Sep 21, 2010

Dear Khalsa Ji,

In the text that follows, I share with you my very personal understanding about reincarnation; it is with this rational that i move forward with understanding Gurbani further.

I start with my very person idea of thought and then go over to the subject of this discussion:

(i) All that we do through our Karmendriyas has its origin in thoughts - what we speak, what we do, where we go, indulge in reproduction activity or defecate, all have thought behind them.

(ii) Thought is generated in the functioning brain. The brain uses the energy received thought the processes of metabolism to function; Thought results as an output of functioning brain using this energy.

(iii) We all know energy cannot be created or destroyed; it can change form and even can be converted into material and vice versa. We all know that the thought is not material; hence if the input to the thought generating process is energy and the output is not material then thought too has to be some form of energy. Thus I conclude that Thought is a form of energy.

(iv) As mentioned earlier, energy cannot be created or destroyed; hence the Thought being a form of energy, once generated must remain floating around.

(v) This way, all the Thoughts generated in a functioning brain during this life time of remain in air. To this are added the Thoughts generated during the past birth.

(vi) Collectively this assemblage of thoughts defines the persons tendencies and desires. This entity in ancient scripture of the land, as I understand, must be what is referred to as 'Lingasarira'.

(vii) From this assemblage of thoughts the soul concludes when it leaves the body, as to the extent of mission has been achieved.

(viii) In case the conclusion is that the mission has failed, the person has strayed from the right path of its mission and accumulated negative Karmas, then the soul enters the form of body or many bodies successively, where these negative Karmas can be exhausted to enable the person to come back to the path of its original mission.

(ix) In case the conclusion is that the mission is partly achieved, then the souls enters a body through which the remaining part of the mission can be accomplished.

(x) In case the conclusion is that the mission is fully achieved then their is no need for rebirth; the soul merges with 'The Sat'.

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With love and respect for all.

Amarpal Singh

findingmyway · Sep 23, 2010

Dear Amarpal Ji,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I always enjoy your posts but am a little confused by this one and would be grateful if you could elaborate using Gurbani. Looking at things from a biology perspective, I have added in my comments.

Amarpal said:
Dear Khalsa Ji,

In the text that follows, I share with you my very personal understanding about reincarnation; it is with this rational that i move forward with understanding Gurbani further.

I start with my very person idea of thought and then go over to the subject of this discussion:

(i) All that we do through our Karmendriyas has its origin in thoughts - what we speak, what we do, where we go, indulge in reproduction activity or defecate, all have thought behind them.

A lot of these are innate behaviours therefore the thought process is subconscious-we do not know that we have had a thought!!

(ii) Thought is generated in the functioning brain. The brain uses the energy received thought the processes of metabolism to function; Thought results as an output of functioning brain using this energy.

There are some innate behaviours that are so much programmed into us that the brain is not used at all! The neural pathway bypasses the brain as the thought process is not very complicated. None come to mind right now but I can check in my biology textbooks if you require.

(iii) We all know energy cannot be created or destroyed; it can change form and even can be converted into material and vice versa. We all know that the thought is not material; hence if the input to the thought generating process is energy and the output is not material then thought too has to be some form of energy. Thus I conclude that Thought is a form of energy.

Biologically, thought is not energy itself. The neurones firing to produce the thought use energy. The energy used by neurones is dissipated as heat. Thought is a product of that process. It is not an entity but the result of chemical processes in neurones. This is proved by numerous studies where thoughts can be created or changed by artificially stimulating certain neurones or areas of the brain. If thoughts were energy this could not be done so easily as rate of respiration would need to be changed rather than chemical balance.

(iv) As mentioned earlier, energy cannot be created or destroyed; hence the Thought being a form of energy, once generated must remain floating around.

see above. thought is not energy

(v) This way, all the Thoughts generated in a functioning brain during this life time of remain in air. To this are added the Thoughts generated during the past birth.

thoughts cannot remain in the air as they are not an entity. if thoughts were energy (which they are not) then that energy would be dissipated in the air or converted to another form as it reacted with other substances in the air. in order for energy to remain for a long time it has to be in a v v v steady state so this is not common. Even oxygen changes form depending on what it comes into contact with.

(vi) Collectively this assemblage of thoughts defines the persons tendencies and desires. This entity in ancient scripture of the land, as I understand, must be what is referred to as 'Lingasarira'.

(vii) From this assemblage of thoughts the soul concludes when it leaves the body, as to the extent of mission has been achieved.

please define soul? if a soul has a consciousness as you have stated here then it must also output its energy according to your theory so where does this energy go? how does the soul generate energy since it cannot respire to think enough to make a decision about whether the mission has been achieved? what happens to its thoughts? where does the cycle end?

(viii) In case the conclusion is that the mission has failed, the person has strayed from the right path of its mission and accumulated negative Karmas, then the soul enters the form of body or many bodies successively, where these negative Karmas can be exhausted to enable the person to come back to the path of its original mission.

how can energy judge karma?

(ix) In case the conclusion is that the mission is partly achieved, then the souls enters a body through which the remaining part of the mission can be accomplished.

how does the energy enter a body? does it take a chemical reaction or other form? how do you define soul? is everyone's mission the same? are different paths acceptable? how does the soul judge whether a suitable path has been taken?

(x) In case the conclusion is that the mission is fully achieved then their is no need for rebirth; the soul merges with 'The Sat'.

as above. can you support this theory with gurbani?

 With this rational and consequent understanding, Reincarnation is no longer a belief for me; it is a realisation.[/FONT]

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal Singh

best wishes,
jasleen

ik-jivan · Sep 24, 2010

Actually, what Amarpal is talking about is scientifically and philosophically discussed in Information Theory, CEMI Theory, Theories of Consciousness, et cetera. All biological organisms operate off of electromagnetic energy.

Amarpal’s thought approach those of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin and Vladimir Vernadsky as relates to the Noosphere, which is currently being researched as part of the Princeton Global Consciousness Project. That’s Princton University. CEMI Theory is the product of Johnjoe McFadden out of Surrey University in the UK.

Long before Pierre Teilhard de Chardin and Vladimir Vernadsky gave thought to the question of permanence of thought waves, the scribes of the Vedas wrote about it, naming it the Akashic Records.

With the accelerated discoveries in Quantum Mechanics, the CERN LHC experiments with sound waves instead of photon particles, we are fast dissolving the notion that ‘if you can’t see it, touch it, smell it, tastes it, it’s not real’. Physics now recognises that consciousness and energy are intrinsic to the constructs of the material world.

FYI References:
Consciousness Based or Wireless?:
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2002/05/52674
CEMI Theory:
http://www3.surrey.ac.uk/qe/pdfs/mcfadden_JCS2002b.pdf
Electromagnetic Theories of Consciousness:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_theories_of_consciousness
Noosphere:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noosphere
Akashic Records:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akashic_records

I’ve reconciled the whole ‘mess’ this way: we’re a work-in-progress, a cultivation of consciousness . . . the Universal Consciousness. The One Consciousness is like a multi-processor computer and each entity is processing a small algorithm as part of The Program. When an algorithm finishes its calculation, it makes its final contribution, by storing its data bytes in memory and is silent as the other algorithms continue their calculations. The resources that the completed algorithm was using are freed up. The algorithm, as a ‘soul’, loses consciousness of self and is blended with the Source (The SAT).

Using this metaphor, reincarnation is simply the algorithm going through another iteration of the routine on a different range of data. The Program doesn’t have a form. It’s just electromagnetic data stored on media, which does have form. The media – hard drive, for instance – is unintelligent without the Operating System, which is the Laws of Nature and the Cosmic Law is The Program. Now, if the Operating System (Laws of Nature) needs a reboot, because of a power surge (5 evils) corrupted it, The Program Developer (God) restarts the machine and then continues working on The Program. Will The Program ever be finished? Sure. We’ve already had a few software releases, but every so often there will be an upgrade release.

God, The Program Developer, is in The Program, just as a potter is in the pot he crafts. The Developer is also in the machine and hardware, which is the material world, because The Program is in the machine. Now, all programs have a purpose. The purpose of The Program is to create a 3-D image of the Program Developer, which is to say ‘manifest God in creation’. However, this is a ‘new software application’, it won’t be the last one release, because the Program Developer always wants to expand His knowledge and that is consciousness cultivation / evolution.

This computer analogy can even be used to represent human relations. . . we, the algorithms, are all handling the same 1’s and 0’s, but some might be handling a range of mainly 1’s and others, mainly 0’s. That’s the nature of our individual routines (personalities & philosophies). All algorithms are right and the only time there is a real conflict is when there is a resource sharing conflict. Some algorithms are suspended and have to wait until resources are free and the algorithm can resume its routine. That’s the equivalent of ‘death’, but there is no real death, as the algorithm (individual soul) just picks up where it left off (reincarnates) before it was suspended. Algorithms repeat (reincarnate) until their tasks are completed.

Sat Sri Akal,
t

findingmyway · Sep 25, 2010

ik-jivan said:
Actually, what Amarpal is talking about is scientifically and philosophically discussed in Information Theory, CEMI Theory, Theories of Consciousness, et cetera. All biological organisms operate off of electromagnetic energy.

Amarpal’s thought approach those of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin and Vladimir Vernadsky as relates to the Noosphere, which is currently being researched as part of the Princeton Global Consciousness Project. That’s Princton University. CEMI Theory is the product of Johnjoe McFadden out of Surrey University in the UK.

Long before Pierre Teilhard de Chardin and Vladimir Vernadsky gave thought to the question of permanence of thought waves, the scribes of the Vedas wrote about it, naming it the Akashic Records.

With the accelerated discoveries in Quantum Mechanics, the CERN LHC experiments with sound waves instead of photon particles, we are fast dissolving the notion that ‘if you can’t see it, touch it, smell it, tastes it, it’s not real’. Physics now recognises that consciousness and energy are intrinsic to the constructs of the material world.

Thanks for explaining further. It appears this theory comes from several sources but does not seem to be supported by Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Click to expand...

I’ve reconciled the whole ‘mess’ this way: we’re a work-in-progress, a cultivation of consciousness . . . the Universal Consciousness. The One Consciousness is like a multi-processor computer and each entity is processing a small algorithm as part of The Program. When an algorithm finishes its calculation, it makes its final contribution, by storing its data bytes in memory and is silent as the other algorithms continue their calculations. The resources that the completed algorithm was using are freed up. The algorithm, as a ‘soul’, loses consciousness of self and is blended with the Source (The SAT).

Using this metaphor, reincarnation is simply the algorithm going through another iteration of the routine on a different range of data. The Program doesn’t have a form. It’s just electromagnetic data stored on media, which does have form. The media – hard drive, for instance – is unintelligent without the Operating System, which is the Laws of Nature and the Cosmic Law is The Program. Now, if the Operating System (Laws of Nature) needs a reboot, because of a power surge (5 evils) corrupted it, The Program Developer (God) restarts the machine and then continues working on The Program. Will The Program ever be finished? Sure. We’ve already had a few software releases, but every so often there will be an upgrade release.

God, The Program Developer, is in The Program, just as a potter is in the pot he crafts. The Developer is also in the machine and hardware, which is the material world, because The Program is in the machine. Now, all programs have a purpose. The purpose of The Program is to create a 3-D image of the Program Developer, which is to say ‘manifest God in creation’. However, this is a ‘new software application’, it won’t be the last one release, because the Program Developer always wants to expand His knowledge and that is consciousness cultivation / evolution.

This computer analogy can even be used to represent human relations. . . we, the algorithms, are all handling the same 1’s and 0’s, but some might be handling a range of mainly 1’s and others, mainly 0’s. That’s the nature of our individual routines (personalities & philosophies). All algorithms are right and the only time there is a real conflict is when there is a resource sharing conflict. Some algorithms are suspended and have to wait until resources are free and the algorithm can resume its routine. That’s the equivalent of ‘death’, but there is no real death, as the algorithm (individual soul) just picks up where it left off (reincarnates) before it was suspended. Algorithms repeat (reincarnate) until their tasks are completed.

The description you give of the creator here implies he is not perfect. Gurbani tells us that the creator is perfect and therefore there would not be any need for updates. He already knows everything and does not need to expand knowledge base. You also talk about a 3D image of the programme developer. However, mool mantar tells us that God has no form so this is not possible. My understanding is that God is in his creation to look after it rather than emulate himself. You talk about a resource sharing conflict. Does this mean there aren't enough souls for the bodies? With the expanding population does this mean more souls are being created even as some merge with the source as they become complete? If the algorithm retains memory then why cannot we remember our past lives? The other thing Gurbani talks about is how we can never fully understand his hukam so i guess we'll never really know whether this theory or any other theory about the after life is right!!!

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Tejwant Singh

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