Grammer / Vyakarn Request For Assistance With Marking Tests

[Ishna]

Page 29
Exercise 2B
Translate the following verses into English:

1. ਕਿਆ ਨਾਓੁ ਤੁਮਾਰਾ = what name yours = what [is] Your name?
2. ਸਭਿ ਰਸ ਮਿਠੇ = all flavours sweets = all [the] flavours [are] sweet / all [the] sweet flavours
3*. ਏਕੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਦੁਇ ਰਾਹ = one lord two ways = [there is] one Lord, [there are] two ways
4*. ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਏਕੁ ਹੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਹੀ = Lord my one is other not = My Lord is one, [there is] no other
5*. ਤੇਰੇ ਗੁਣ ਬਹੁਤੇ = your qualities many = Your qualities [are] many {not sure how this is two short sentences...}
6. ਇਕਿ ਦਾਤੇ ਇਕਿ ਮੰਗਤੇ = some givers some beggars = some [are] givers [and] some [are] beggars
7. ਸੇਈ ਪੂਰੇ ਸਾਹ = they complete lords = they [are the] complete lords {ਪੂਰੇ can also mean 'pure' but I've used 'complete' per the book'}
8. ਹਮ ਪਾਪੀ = we sinners = we [are] sinners
9. ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਹੈ ਸਾਚਾ = name your is true = Your name is true
10. ਕੇਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਜੀਅ = how many your creatures = how many are Your creatures!
11. ਸਭੁ ਜੀਓੁ ਤੁਮਾਰਾ = all soul yours = Every soul [is] yours
12. ਏਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹੈ = just one name command is = just [the] one name [is the] command
13*. ਅਸੰਖ ਨਾਵ ਅਸੰਖ ਥਾਵ = countless names countless places = [there are] countless names, [there are] countless places
14. ਮਿਠਾ ਕਓੁੜਾ ਦੋਵੈ ਰੋਗ = sweet bitter both diseases = [the] sweet [and the] bitter [are] both diseases
15. ਸਭਿ ਗੁਣ ਤੇਰੇ = all virtues yours = all virtues [are] Yours
16*. ਇਕਿ ਖੋਟੇ ਇਕਿ ਖਰੇ = some counterfeits some genuine = some [are] couterfeits [and] some are genuine
17. ਤੇ ਮੁਖ ਓੁਜਲੇ = those faces shining = those faces [are] shining
18. ਕੇਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਰੂਪ ਰੰਗ = how many your forms colours = how many are your forms and colours!
19*. ਸਗਲ ਗੁਣ ਅਵਗਣੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ = all virtues vice not anyone = all [have] virtues, no one [has a] vice
20. ਕਵਨੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ = who? ours = who is ours?
21. ਤੂ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਪੇ = you every anything yourself = {I'm stuck on this one!! }


Word-for-word translation in isolation like this is really challenging. It's like feeling a small grain with your fingers and being asked which grain it is!

I'm probably going to slow down a bit now as I work on memorizing the vocabulary.

Tip: You can use a little week-to-a-view diary, with 4 days on the left page and 3 days and a note section on the right page. You can write the vocabulary words on the right-hand page (in Gurmukhi) and over the page write the translation and other information (noun, adjective, gender, etc.). It's handy having the pages split into four little sections - it helps group words together.

Then you can open the book and look at the words in Gurmukhi on the right-hand page, think about what it means and to check just flip the page over.

Many thanks again jios.

 

[harmanpreet singh]

greetings Ishna ji , well done !

ਤੂ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਪੇ = you every anything yourself = {I'm stuck on this one!!

}

ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ is taken as one word

ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ = every thing ;
ਤੂ(You)(ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ) every thing(ਆਪੇ) Yourself .

ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ appears more than 170 times in Gurbani .
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Search&Param=punjabi



are you learning Pronunciation also ?

 

[Ishna]

Ah of course! Thank you bhaji. I think that's in the book and I must have forgotten. Time for review and contemplation. I've read about other people doing this course and it's quite intense and takes a long time to complete. Need to remember to take my time.

Regarding pronounciation, I've got an audio CD about Punjabi language and there are some really good Youtube videos coming out lately. I really struggle with pronounciation, compounded by my Australian accent - I can't say the letter 'r' properly (Aussies usually make more of an 'a' sound in place of 'r' - like instead of saying 'car' we'll say 'caah'. Makes me feel weird when I pronounce 'r'.

I plan to try and recruit someone (a very patient someone) at Gurdwara Sahib for 1:1 pronounciation lessons.

Also I listen to Rajnarind Kaur's recordings and try to copy her. http://www.sikhsangeet.com/albumid575-Rajnarind-Kaur-Bani-Pro-1.html

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

2. ਸਭਿ ਰਸ ਮਿਠੇ = all flavours sweets = all [the] flavours [are] sweet / all [the] sweet flavours
>> all the flavours are sweet

3*. ਏਕੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਦੁਇ ਰਾਹ = one lord two ways = [there is] one Lord, [there are] two ways
>> two roads to One Lord, we see the two roads but forget that there is one Lord

6. ਇਕਿ ਦਾਤੇ ਇਕਿ ਮੰਗਤੇ = some givers some beggars = some [are] givers [and] some [are] beggars
>> I assume you know Ik means one, it is more like we use in english.. on one hand

16*. ਇਕਿ ਖੋਟੇ ਇਕਿ ਖਰੇ = some counterfeits some genuine = some [are] couterfeits [and] some are genuine
>> lol I forgot what ਖਰੇ meant

19*. ਸਗਲ ਗੁਣ ਅਵਗਣੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ = all virtues vice not anyone = all [have] virtues, no one [has a] vice
>> more like = has all virtues, no vice

21. ਤੂ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਪੇ = you every anything yourself
>> You are everything anything Yourself

PS: There was a Nihang who was telling me one day how the model of the Universe is replicated inside each of our bodies. And there is Fibonacci pattern common in nature and on our finger tips

 

[Ishna]

Thanks Kanwaljit ji.

6. ਇਕਿ ਦਾਤੇ ਇਕਿ ਮੰਗਤੇ = some givers some beggars = some [are] givers [and] some [are] beggars
>> I assume you know Ik means one, it is more like we use in english.. on one hand

The book suggests ਇਕਿ = some, and ਇਕ = one. Is that right or have I missed something?

 

[spnadmin]

Just a tip when there could be more than one choice for the meaning of a word.

Using this as an example 7. ਸੇਈ ਪੂਰੇ ਸਾਹ = they complete lords = they [are the] complete lords {ਪੂਰੇ can also mean 'pure' but I've used 'complete' per the book'}

Per the book, ਪੂਰੇ will mean "complete" because the sense of that is that Akaal is unbreakable, indivisible, one continuous reality, and therefore "complete." Shackle in his introduction states that the intention of the text is to enable students to be able to read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The choices of meanings have to be guided by that, and in a way Punjabi dictionaries won't be helpful all the time. Therefore, go with the book.

I am making a minor point here, but it should help with efficiency.

Ironically, that is what Professor Sahib Singh's objective was. Ever wonder why he translated the Punjabi of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji into Punjabi - Punjabi into Punjabi? Why did he need to do that? Because there was a need to zoom into the best choice based on the Gurus' intended meaning. Language is fascinating.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

I agree with Spnadmin ji. We all who are trying to help her should keep in mind that Ishna ji is learning Gurmukhi not spoken Punjabi. The grammar and the meanings are much different in the latter.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Thanks Kanwaljit ji.



The book suggests ਇਕਿ = some, and ਇਕ = one. Is that right or have I missed something?

Ishna ji,

Guru Fateh.

You are right. ਇਕਿ in this specific sentence means Some type, not One. That is why both nouns are in plural. ਇਕਿ ਦਾਤੇ ਇਕਿ ਮੰਗਤੇ. And yes, ਇਕ = one.

There are many subtleties in Gurmukhi which are absent in Punjabi.

You are doing a great job btw.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Ishna]

Lesson Three
Feminine nouns, feminine forms of adjectives and pronouns

Page 33
Exercise 3A
Put the following phrases into the plural direct:

(singular) ... (plural)
ਭਲੀ ਦਾਤਿ ... ਭਲੀਆ ਦਾਤੀ (good gift ... good gifts)
ਸਚੀ ਸਿਢਤਿ ... ਸਚੀਆ ਸਿਢਤੀ (true praise ... true praises)
ਕੂੜੀ ਗਲ ... ਕੂੜੀਆ ਗਲਾ (false thing ... false things)
ਕੂੜੀ ਗਾਲਿ ... ਕੂੜੀਆ ਗਾਲੀ (false thing ... false things)
ਸਾ ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ ... ਸੇ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ (that happy bride ... those happy brides)
ਤੇਰੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ... ਤੇਰੀਆ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ (your glory ... your glories)
ਊਚੀ ਜਾਇ ... ਊਚੀਆ ਜਾਈ (lofty place ... lofty places)
ਸਾਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ... ਸਾਚੀਆ ਬਾਣੀਆ (true bani ... true banis)
ਏਹ ਜੋਤਿ ... ਏਹ ਜੋਤੀ (this light ... these lights)

I have a question - I'm confused about the boundary between the gender of people being described and the gender of words. For example, in the case of ਤੇਰੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ, if the person whose glory is being described is a man, does the possessive adjective (ਤੇਰੀ) stay in the feminine form to agree with the feminine noun ਵਡਿਆਈ ?

Thank you sangat ji.

 

[spnadmin]

yes

In languages that deflect nouns and adjectives (vary word endings) to show gender, number and case, adjectives agree with nouns they modify. The English language deflects nouns only for the number (singular/plural) by adding -s/-es. Adjectives don't change their form. In other languages adjectives do change endings according to gender, number and in some languages also by case, according to the nouns they modify. The rule holds, Except in rare cases where the adjective itself does not take on endings, perhaps because it was borrowed from another language.

p/s I couldn't resist.

In English: believable story, believable stories = in French histoire veritable, histoires veritables

In English groovy story, groovy stories = In French, histoire "groovy," histoires "groovy"

 

[Ishna]

Thank you Admin ji, what you say is very veritables (sic) and makes senses. :grinningkaur:

 

[Ishna]

Page 33
Exercise 3B
Translate the following verses into English:

1. ਤੂ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਮੇਰੀ ਰਾਸਿ = you Lord my wealth = You, Lord, are my wealth
2. ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਨੁਰਮਲ ਬਾਣੀ = body mind pure pure bani = Body and mind are pure, pure is the Bani
3. ਸਭ ਤੇਰੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ = all Your glory
4. ਸਾ ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ = that happy bride
5. ਏਹ ਕਿਨੇਹੀ ਦਾਤਿ = this 'what sort of?' gift = what sort of gift is this?
6. ਸਚੀ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਿਢਤਿ ਸਚੀ ਸਾਲਾਹ = true your praise true glory = true is Your praise and true [is Your] glory
7. ਦੁਨੀਆ ਖੋਟੀ ਰਾਸਿ = world false wealth = material wealth is false
8. ਦੂਜੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਾਇ = other no place = [there is] no other place
9. ਸਾਈ ਭਲੀ ਪਰੀਤਿ = 'that very' good love = that [particular] love [is] good
10. ਸਗਲ ਭਵਨ ਤੇਰੀ ਮਾਇਆ = all worlds your maya = all worlds [are] Your maya ... {not sure}

... to be continued

Thank you.

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

ਸਭ ਤੇਰੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ = all Your glory
It would be nice not to forget Vadiyayee comes from Vada (which means bigger)

ਸਾਲਾਹ also means praise in a way.

PS: New website found http://www.shabdkosh.com/pa/browse

ਜਾਇ - go to (place) (it is imp to remember how the word is derived)

ਭਵਨ = palace

 

[Ishna]

Thanks Kanwaljit ji. I don't think I've gotten that far yet - I've only done masculine and feminine direct, singular and plural nouns, pronouns and adjectives. And going by the translation of words provided in the book. Sometimes it's hard when a word has two meanings, like ਸਾਲਾਹ. The book/course I'm using is focusing more on the grammar than the meaning of the words I think, giving a cursory translation of each.

Thanks for the website.

Regarding ਜਾਇ - go to (place), do you think this is a better translation:

ਦੂਜੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਾਇ = other no place = [there is] no other place [to go to]

Many thanks again for everyone's patience.

 

[Ishna]

Page 34
Continuing Exercise 3B
Translate the following verses into English:

11. ਗਾਲੀ ਕੂੜੀਆ = things false = false things
12. ਅੰਧੀ ਦੁਨੀਆ = dark world
13. ਏਹਾ ਭਗਤਿ ਏਹੋ ਤਪਤਾਉ = 'just this' devotion 'just this' austerity = this in particular is devotion, this in particular is auspicious
14. ਸਾਈ ਵਡਿਆਈ = 'that very' greatness
15. ਸਗਲੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ = all light yours = all the light is Yours
16. ਕਵਣਿ ਸਿ ਰੁਤੀ = which? those seasons = which seasons [are] those? / which [are the] seasons
17. ਗਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਕਾਈ = salvation no someone = no one [gets] salvation
18. ਅੰਮਿ(r)ਤੁ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਾਣੀ = nectar your bani = Your bani [is] nectar
19. ਸਭ ਤੇਰੀ ਰਜਾਇ = all your pleasure = [it is] all Your pleasure
20. ਹੋਰਿ ਗਲਾ ਸਭਿ ਕੂੜੀਆ = second things all false = all other things [are] false


Thank you again!

 

[Aisha]

Ishna Ji, I am sorry I can not be of any help, I am useless when it comes to reading or writing any language other than English hehe

A few months ago, I wanted to self-teach myself Modern Standard Arabic, but gave up after the first week. I will not be trying that again unless I am enrolled in a class with a good teacher.

It is very inspirational to see you tackling Gurmukhi, particularly as you have been doing it so far without one-on-one guidance from anyone in real life. It has certainly motivated me to get up off my behind and learn a language other than English.

I CAN speak Punjabi, so I think that learning to read it and write it would be the next logical step. I would just like to know, was it difficult for you to learn the alphabet, particularly as it is not roman text?

Also, in your exercises, when you pronounce the Gurmukhi phrase, are you pronouncing the English translation, or are you saying something in Punjabi? Like in Exercise 3B #11, when you read "ਗਾਲੀ ਕੂੜੀਆ", are you reading "things false", or something in Punjabi that you later translate into English yourself?

Keep up the good work!

 

[Ishna]

Aisha ji

I'm glad to motivate others to learn Gurmukhi or other languages. :cheerleaders:

I'm a slow learner and I've had a teach-yourself-Punjabi (speaking) book and audio CDs for a couple of years but haven't had much luck with it. I'm finding this course much easier to understand although still very challenging.

Arabic is well known for being a tricky language to learn so I don't envy the task. Do you do your salat in Arabic? (feel free to pass on this question, I know it's a bit personal)

I've found learning to read Gurmukhi script quite easy. The letters I struggled with the most are 'm' ਮ and 's' ਸ. It only sunk in when there was a guy at Gurdwara talking to his friend about the writing on the noticeboard and he said to his friend that it wasn't m, but s, because 's stops the top'.

Also, in your exercises, when you pronounce the Gurmukhi phrase, are you pronouncing the English translation, or are you saying something in Punjabi? Like in Exercise 3B #11, when you read "ਗਾਲੀ ਕੂੜੀਆ", are you reading "things false", or something in Punjabi that you later translate into English yourself?

11. ਗਾਲੀ ਕੂੜੀਆ = things false = false things

The exercises I've done so far are only for nouns, pronouns and adjectives, so the translations might look a little odd at this stage.

What I'm trying to do is present the Gurmukhi, followed by a word-for-word English translation (as far as I can), then the proper English translation last (rearranging the words so they make proper sense in English). I did it this way to try and show others which Gurmukhi word corresponds to which English word before reshuffling.

It's hard to be clear. :interestedkudi:

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

ISHNA ji,
I think that the correct meaning for ਗਾਲੀ ਕੂੜੀਆ = things false = false things
should be for False speeches or spoken words.

Just an information.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Ishna ji,

Guru Fateh.

And needless to say that you amaze me more and more with every exercise you do.

A couple of tips that you may already be aware of.

I've found learning to read Gurmukhi script quite easy. The letters I struggled with the most are 'm' ਮ and 's' ਸ. It only sunk in when there was a guy at Gurdwara talking to his friend about the writing on the noticeboard and he said to his friend that it wasn't m, but s, because 's stops the top'.

The interesting difference between the Sanskrit based languages and the Latin plus Anglo- Saxon based languages is that, the straight line of the written words is on the top like Punjabi has (without the lagah matras) unlike the latter which is at the bottom).

So it is easy to confuse 'm' ਮ and 's' ਸ. Once one gets used to this observation, it is easier to enunciate Gurmukhi. One other thing you are doing which is admirable is that you are learning Gurmukhi according to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which is written differently than the spoken/written Punjabi.

In my opinion, Gurnukhi explains grammar much better than Punjabi with the help of lagah matras which is helpful for you.
Quote:

Also, in your exercises, when you pronounce the Gurmukhi phrase, are you pronouncing the English translation, or are you saying something in Punjabi? Like in Exercise 3B #11, when you read "ਗਾਲੀ ਕੂੜੀਆ", are you reading "things false", or something in Punjabi that you later translate into English yourself?
11. ਗਾਲੀ ਕੂੜੀਆ = things false = false things

I have noticed that some subtleties are missing in your lessons which are very important.

The only thing I can see at the moment and a bit confused about is the phrase ਗਾਲੀ ਕੂੜੀਆ.

In the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it is like this and used only once if I am not mistaken.

ਪੰਨਾ 594, ਸਤਰ 7
ਨਾਨਕ ਗਾਲੀ ਕੂੜੀਆ ਬਾਝੁ ਪਰੀਤਿ ਕਰੇਇ ॥
Nānak gālī kūṛī▫ā bājẖ parīṯ kare▫i.
O Nanak, false is the speech of one who acts without loving the Lord.

It is false speech because ਗਾਲੀ is singular and it means speech.

Let me elaborate it a bit more but I do not want to confuse you.

ਗਲ= Chat. ਗਲਾੰ= chats =GALAn

ਗਾਲੀ= also means a curse word like what the F...

ਗਾਲੀਆੰ= curse words= GAALIAn

ਕੂੜੀ= Bitter in singular

ਕੂੜੀਆੰ= Bitter in plural KUUREEAn

ਕੂੜੀ ਗਲ= Bitter/unpleasant speech/chat

ਕੂੜੀਆੰ ਗਲਾੰ= Bitter/unpleasant chats

Here comes the whopper:

ਕੁੜੀ= a girl =KUREE

ਕੁੜੀਆੰ= girls= KUREEAn

You may not have learnt these yet. My only idea is for you to stay ahead of the game mentally.


I apologise for making your head spin.

Keep it up!!

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Ishna]

Thank you Prakash ji and Tejwant ji, that's very helpful!! Shackle's translation of ਗਲ is indeed thing (said) / matter. I didn't make proper use of the words provided. Thanks for picking me up on it.

It's interesting to not the subtle difference between bitter/false/girl. I'm reminded a bit of English words bear (animal) and bare (naked!).