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Sehajdhari Sikh Federation! Comments, Please

Feb 19, 2007
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Delhi India
Kanwardeep Singh ji,

Probably I have not used proper expressions. I do mean exactly the same thing as you are saying. That is Keshdhari Sikhs do not mind people who are Hindus by birth calling themselves as Sehajdhari Sikhs and in fact they are treated with respect and warmth

But they do resent Sikhs who were earlier Keshdharis and now have shed their Kesh but still insist on being called as Sikhs and wish to enjoy all the benefits of being a Sikh. I fully agree that this unprincipled and should be opposed.
 
Feb 25, 2010
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Dalbirk ji

We humans have nature to mold religions to suit ourself.Because ours is Young Religion that's why people have difficulty to accept sehajdhari form.
Prophet mohammed in one of Hadith's clearly said That he has no connection with people who shave their beards.Hijab is recommened in Quran.Still we see large percentage of muslims without Hijab and Beard .So in other word majority of muslims are sehajdhari muslims.It is just their leaders don't force community (barring Talibans ) to wear it.

At present hoping that 100% sikh community will keep uncut hair is like day dreaming.The more we force them the more people we loose to other carbon copy Dera's and religions.This will result in Final extinction of sikhism

Kanwardeep Singh, ji

That is precisely one of the points I wanted to raise, thanks!

Curious

PD I will be away from the PC for 4 0r 5 days
 

ballym

SPNer
May 19, 2006
260
335
Sikhism will not be extinct. Some talibani "sikhs" will live somewhere, create trouble and we will face more rigorous checking on all airports.
Hopefully there will not be any support for them in general sikh polpulation.... like it happened in 1980 and nineties. When general population support was gone, the so called terrorism died.
 
Feb 25, 2010
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Hello Every One

Any one care to give alternative translations of Sahajdhari? I have seen it translated as natural adopter, original adopter and innate adopter. and of course the often quoted slow adopter. I am not a little non-plussed, and will like to know your opinions on this, and why you hold them. Is there any relation to Sehaj?

Blessings
Curious
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
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19,219
Hello Every One

Any one care to give alternative translations of Sahajdhari? I have seen it translated as natural adopter, original adopter and innate adopter. and of course the often quoted slow adopter. I am not a little non-plussed, and will like to know your opinions on this, and why you hold them. Is there any relation to Sehaj?

Blessings
Curious

curious seeker ji

You are never going to get closure on this question. Literally the term means "slow" and "on a spiritual path" equaling someone who is taking the slow path to full acceptance of the Sikh roop (keeps hair and follow the tenets of Sikhism in their totality)

However, I found an article at Skhnet, which is in my opinion a good one, because it explores a variety of interpretations of the word "sehajdhari" in a scholarly fashion, citing the Sikh Gurdwara Act of 1925, and the Mahan Gosh, and other sources as well. I don't like to shoot from the hip, so I am more comfortable giving you a number of respected sources so you can weigh this for yourself. :)

SGPC sticks to old definition of Sehajdhari | SikhNet
 
Feb 25, 2010
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curious seeker ji

You are never going to get closure on this question. Literally the term means "slow" and "on a spiritual path" equaling someone who is taking the slow path to full acceptance of the Sikh roop (keeps hair and follow the tenets of Sikhism in their totality)

However, I found an article at Skhnet, which is in my opinion a good one, because it explores a variety of interpretations of the word "sehajdhari" in a scholarly fashion, citing the Sikh Gurdwara Act of 1925, and the Mahan Gosh, and other sources as well. I don't like to shoot from the hip, so I am more comfortable giving you a number of respected sources so you can weigh this for yourself. :)

SGPC sticks to old definition of Sehajdhari | SikhNet

Dear Narayanjot Ji

Thanks for the article , it does frame the issue, however, I am neither seeking 'closure' nor trying to string along an argument :) If Shehajdhari and Sahajdhari are the same thing, which they seem to be since you spelled it Sehajdhari, then I am definitely puzzled. Because obviously the term sehaj which is in the SGGS does not seem to mean slow but poised, balanced and/or intuitively balanced, as several different English translations and even the Spanish translation state.

So unless I have read you totally wrong, and missperceived the whole issue, it does seem that we have a difference in meaning between what the SGGS says the Sehaj, and thus Sehajdhari, means and what the SGPC says it means. N'est ce pas?

Blessings
Curious
 

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
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Dear curious seeker

The problem of accepting sehajdhari is not simple .Many things should be looked from practical point of view. In India there are more hindu's who visit Gurdwara's than sikhs.The question now is who are they?If SGPC or sikh instituitions accept them as sikhs then many of them will take benefits what are given to Sikhs and many may influence Gurdwara elections Yet in tougher times like 1984 many these will not stand by the sikhs
 

ballym

SPNer
May 19, 2006
260
335
Many things should be looked from practical point of view. In India there are more hindu's who visit Gurdwara's than sikhs.The question now is who are they?If SGPC or sikh instituitions accept them as sikhs then many of them will take benefits what are given to Sikhs and many may influence Gurdwara elections Yet in tougher times like 1984 many these will not stand by the sikhs

It does not justify denying them the option. By this logic, only amritdhari will remain as sikhs. Physical identity can not and should not be basis of anything.
If someone is embracing the religion, he should be allowed entry. He can be a khalsa or a non-khalsa sikh.
Going by the lifestyle of Hindus in punjab, they are not much different from sikhs.
there are other means to identify genuineness of a sikh rather than physical identity... otherwise ashutosh and Joginder sahni should be termed true sikhs but not many others non-keshdhari. A true follower can NEVER say that one style is better than other. All are God's people.
 

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
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It does not justify denying them the option. By this logic, only amritdhari will remain as sikhs. Physical identity can not and should not be basis of anything.
If someone is embracing the religion, he should be allowed entry. He can be a khalsa or a non-khalsa sikh.
Going by the lifestyle of Hindus in punjab, they are not much different from sikhs.
there are other means to identify genuineness of a sikh rather than physical identity... otherwise ashutosh and Joginder sahni should be termed true sikhs but not many others non-keshdhari. A true follower can NEVER say that one style is better than other. All are God's people.

If you want RSS and other hindu organisations to take over Sikhism and destroy the remaining sikhs then go ahead try this Idea.Ashutosh call himself living Guru so their is no question of him being a sikh.

Btw in all other religions their is a type of ceremony by which a person embrace that religion.I think for sehajdhari's we have to invent that ceremony
then they can become part of sikhism
 

ballym

SPNer
May 19, 2006
260
335
Btw in all other religions their is a type of ceremony by which a person embrace that religion.I think for sehajdhari's we have to invent that ceremony
then they can become part of sikhism
Great idea. After all a human need to have a defined boundary and a discipline to follow. No denying that.
But this discipline should not make people shun that path. Like a father being too strict and kids not following him at all. It does not lead to positive result.
Good practical solution.
 

ballym

SPNer
May 19, 2006
260
335
Human is first or religion is first. Boundaries are decided depending on limits tolerance, acceptance and norms whatever you may call it. I am always looking at things from a practical aspect.
Roab Ji, Most people are not able to reach to your level.
My point in writing last post was to have something ... which is better than nothing. A stricter boundary mostly results in more people outside boundary.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
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Jun 17, 2004
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Whats the purpose if you dont want to follow one boundry but want another although a lesser and lighter?

roab ji

My understanding of the conversation on this point is that many who follow all the tenets of Sikhism but do not take amrit would benefit from a form of initiation consistent with their level or stage. I did not get a sense that this would be for people who are trying avoid a boundary. But it would be a way, an important step, to acknowledge to oneself that one is not ready for Khanda da pahul, yet one wishes to identify as a Sikh. And it is important also for the panth to recognize those who do accept only Sri Guru Granth Sahib as guru, do Nit Nem, take very seriously seva to the Guru and to the Panth, and abide by all other beliefs of Sikhism. There are many things that many Sikhs take to heart. And it makes no sense for their identity to be in question given one scenario or another, oftentimes having to do with politics. The line drawn to be a Sikh can be so rigid that it drives people away into dera worship, babawale practices, or no participation at all. This is already happening. So I think the suggestion is merely a way to be inclusive. Of course if I am not getting it, then Kanwardeep ji or ballym ji will clarify their points.
 

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
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Whats the purpose if you dont want to follow one boundry but want another although a lesser and lighter?

If a person Don't follow want to follow any boundry he/she can come to Gurdwara , do sewa etc. But on the Other hand he/she has no right interfere
in Sikh Affairs or take benefits that given to sikhs.
 
Feb 25, 2010
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Dear curious seeker

The problem of accepting sehajdhari is not simple .Many things should be looked from practical point of view. In India there are more hindu's who visit Gurdwara's than sikhs.The question now is who are they?If SGPC or sikh instituitions accept them as sikhs then many of them will take benefits what are given to Sikhs and many may influence Gurdwara elections Yet in tougher times like 1984 many these will not stand by the sikhs

Dear Karwardeep Ji

I am sorry if I have given the impression that my questions are more about who runs the Gurdwaras. that is not the case, in fact, I would totally agree that members of a dedicated group, in all religions, should run its affairs, be elected to office, be involved in missionary activities, etc and not those who either do not find themselves ready for a more committed and involved disposition or are there basically to 'add' God to their busy lives or to play 'saint'

My questions are more along the lines of the meaning of the terms and whether being Khalsa is a requirement for bing a 'true' Sikh. I am not here to criticize, far from it. I consider Sikhi as having a lot more to contribute to humanity than even most Sikhs may think. But I also worry that some elements are using the spirit of the Khalsa to fanaticize and divide the Sikh Way , and I am also asking myself if I am seeing things right. I certainly would not want to make a wrong judgment or make a wrong conclusion. And that is why I pester you guys with questions.:)

Divine Light
Curious
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Dear Narayanjot Ji

Thanks for the article , it does frame the issue, however, I am neither seeking 'closure' nor trying to string along an argument :) If Shehajdhari and Sahajdhari are the same thing, which they seem to be since you spelled it Sehajdhari, then I am definitely puzzled. Because obviously the term sehaj which is in the SGGS does not seem to mean slow but poised, balanced and/or intuitively balanced, as several different English translations and even the Spanish translation state.

So unless I have read you totally wrong, and missperceived the whole issue, it does seem that we have a difference in meaning between what the SGGS says the Sehaj, and thus Sehajdhari, means and what the SGPC says it means. N'est ce pas?

Blessings
Curious

curious seeker ji

I am truly unable to understand your question? At what level are you asking?

Sehajdhari and Sahajdhari are the same word. The "e" and "a" in that noun position are pronounded the same way -- in English like the "u" in "thud." The schwa sound in English. Transliterations can be very variable and therefore throw a person off. The word "sehaj" in Gurmukhi looks like this ਸਹਜਿ, which is .... s - h - j (soft j) - eh

You notice that the "e" or "a" following the initial "s" is not even written. It is voiced but not written. Whenever that is the fate of a vowel in Punjabi, then the vowel sounds like "uh." The transliteration has to include a vowel, in the case of sehaj (an "e" or an "a") because without it the word would be mispronounced as if starting with an "sh."
-------------------------------------------

Now I think you are asking more than that. One translation for "sehaj" is intuitive ease -- or the state of equipoise experienced by one who achieves realization. But it also means "natural state" "inborn nature" "effortless state" or the "highest spiritual state." When Guru Nanak used the word he was referring to those who were moving on a path toward the highest spiritual state. On the way to sehaj, seeking the jyote or inner light of Waheguru. And yes, the modern meaning is different, but also it is not so different.

-----------------------------------------------------

In the modern sense the sehajdhari are making their way toward realization of their inner nature through their devotion as Sikhs. They have not taken a final step, which to be baptized and adopt the Sikh roop. Though this may sound as if somehow a shift has occurred and greater emphasis or value is placed on one's physical appearance, that is not the case.

In 1699 Guru Gobind Singh formed the Khalsa on Vaisakhi, soon to be celebrated on April 14. Before him inner and outer spirituality had always been two pillars of Sikhi. On Vaisakhi Guru Gobind Singh formalized this fusion of inner and outer spirituality when he created the Khalsa. Guru Gobind Singh declared Sri Guru Granth Sahib as the final and eternal Guru. But he also said to his khalsa

The Khalsa is my own special form
Within the Khalsa I’ll ever abide,
The Khalsa is the life of my life;
The Khalsa is the breath of my breath.
The Khalsa is my worshipful lord.
The Khalsa is my saintly knight.

Sikh bana, including kesh, of a baptized Sikh symbolizes that "special form." It is the representation of outer spirituality. Sure many keshdhari and amritdhari do not live up to the verses above. And many who are sehajdhari are extremely spiritual. But in the ideal sense, to be that "saintly knight," one gives up that part of one's individuality or ego that stands in the way of accepting the bana of a baptized Sikh. This is my understanding. And the best answer that I can give you. Others will have to improve on my deficiencies.
 
Feb 25, 2010
138
104
76
If you want RSS and other hindu organisations to take over Sikhism and destroy the remaining sikhs then go ahead try this Idea.Ashutosh call himself living Guru so their is no question of him being a sikh.

Btw in all other religions their is a type of ceremony by which a person embrace that religion.I think for sehajdhari's we have to invent that ceremony
then they can become part of sikhism


Dear Kanwardeep Singh JI

I do believe that All who wish to be called Sikhs should show some sort of commitment and then should be formally admitted. I am not so sure though that admittance into the Khalsa is that way at first. As to inventing a ceremony for Sehajdharis that is not true. Before Khalsa Sikhs had an Initiation ceremony, correct? I think something along those lines ought to be tried then you would not habe to worry about all those Hindus pretending to be Sehajdhari Sikks :)

Not that the re-instated ceremony would change the fact that the Khalsa as the Guru's own should still run the show, No, I look at it as a way to giving a sense of belonging to Sikhs that may otherwise feel left out specially young Sikhs and more specially so in the West. It would also help many seekers take the first step to becoming a committed Sikh.

Divine Light
Curious
 
Feb 25, 2010
138
104
76
Great idea. After all a human need to have a defined boundary and a discipline to follow. No denying that.
But this discipline should not make people shun that path. Like a father being too strict and kids not following him at all. It does not lead to positive result.
Good practical solution.

Dear Ballym Ji

Precisely! I think something along the lines of a formal and public renunciation of manmukhi ways and then a formal recognition as a Sikh would do wonders!

Divine Light
Curious
 
Feb 25, 2010
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roab ji

My understanding of the conversation on this point is that many who follow all the tenets of Sikhism but do not take amrit would benefit from a form of initiation consistent with their level or stage. I did not get a sense that this would be for people who are trying avoid a boundary. But it would be a way, an important step, to acknowledge to oneself that one is not ready for Khanda da pahul, yet one wishes to identify as a Sikh. And it is important also for the panth to recognize those who do accept only Sri Guru Granth Sahib as guru, do Nit Nem, take very seriously seva to the Guru and to the Panth, and abide by all other beliefs of Sikhism. There are many things that many Sikhs take to heart. And it makes no sense for their identity to be in question given one scenario or another, oftentimes having to do with politics. The line drawn to be a Sikh can be so rigid that it drives people away into dera worship, babawale practices, or no participation at all. This is already happening. So I think the suggestion is merely a way to be inclusive. Of course if I am not getting it, then Kanwardeep ji or ballym ji will clarify their points.

Dear Narayanjot Ji

Well you know, in my book? YOU GOT IT!!!!!. At least this is something that all my 62 years of experience tells me would do wonders for Sikhi and Sikhs. However, realistically what are the chances of something like this actually coming about?

Divine Light
Curious
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Dear Narayanjot Ji

Well you know, in my book? YOU GOT IT!!!!!. At least this is something that all my 62 years of experience tells me would do wonders for Sikhi and Sikhs. However, realistically what are the chances of something like this actually coming about?

Divine Light
Curious


Curious Seeker ji

Whatever it is that I GOT does not belong to me on this subject. I have learned from thinking about other's perspectives on this problem. As you ask "realistically what are the chances of something like this actually coming about?" I am almost certain it will happen sooner than we may think. Maybe not in my lifetime or yours. But celebration of early stages (added) of a Sikh identity is going to be increasingly more relevant as more kids leave their traditions and as more converts enter the fold. I am speaking as a convert BTW. I will not allow myself to get into arguments about whether one must be Khalsa to be Sikh. There are -- and everyone knows this is so -- many answers to that question, all depending on context and the biases of those who respond to the question. In the end, as individuals we have to take a personal account of where we are with what we know we must do. The question I like to ask myself is whether I would turn back now? Would there be any circumstance that might turn me away from Sikhism? I know there is none. Everything else pales against Sri Guru Granth Sahib who is my guru. Akaal will decide the rest. Will decide eveyrthing.
 
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