Sehajdhari Sikh Federation! Comments, Please

[Gurbinderp]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki Fateh,

I, myself a sahejdhari,

It was my decision to be like this, When i have chosen this path i knew that i will loose many of rights. SGPC is the foremost and the supreme committee of Sikh religion, Decision made by SGPC not to include the sahejadharis is important to keep the religion in the current form. It was the decsions made at the time of the formation of the religion since 1699. If someone wants to be worthy to be a part of sikh mainstream then he must obey the rules of the religion. I do not understand why sehajdhari, amritdhari have came to the existence. There is only one form of the religion, which have been clearly directed by dashmesh pita ji.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

The "sehajdharees" did DISAPPEAR..while actually BEING THERE in their THOUSANDS !!
Where and When ??
IN Chandni Chowk.....in DELHI..on the Day when Guru Teg bahdur Ji was PUBLICLY EXECUTED.
Thousands of his sehajdharee Sikhs were THERE..among the CROWD..but they had "disappeared" juts like David Copperfield's Jumbo 747 or Great Wall of China "disapperared".

THIS was one of the Main reaosns why GUru Gobind Singh Ji declard that NEVER AGAIN will His SIKH ever do such a disappearing act while being present..Sava Lakh se ek larroaan..sava lakh se EK will be VISIBLE !!

Actually NO ONE is stopping any sehajdharees from starting their OWN Gurdawras..where ONLY sehajdharees can be presidents pardhaans skatars and Panj Piayaras..whatever. There are in fact some such Places already existing in Delhi and other towns...just LOOK for them...they are run by "sehajdharees" whio OUTWARDLY donned the Banna and look like Amrtidharees..but deep inside they remained sehjadharee...one such is a famous kirtaniyah who was a Lal....he runs a sehajdharee gurdwara ! Again there was a commotion about another such Gurdwara-mandir complex....

 

[ballym]

What are chances of these so-called Sehajdharis sticking around once the Amritdharis start suing violence against them? I don't think they will at all.

In this conflict, if Sehajdharis decided to take over Gurdwaras for example, eventually there would be violence against them and then they will give up this fight...QUOTE]
Surprisingly , a clear comment by PCJ... great.
Sehajdharis may fight back. Some win some loose.Depends on local factors. My point is that we should not let ego bring the situation to that level.
Right now it is undeclared division .... Sehajdhari go to Gurudwara without problem.... contribute. get emotional satisfaction. get guidance.
Let them be there. If Amritdharis feel threatened, let them make it clear in the maryada that sehajdhari are welcome but can not have full rights.
If they choose to become amritdhari, they get full membership. It leave an option to improve .
At present the move is going inthe direction to exclude them from sikh religion.
Sikh is not only khalsa as it is being made out to be.

 

[spnadmin]

ballym ji

I am not as pessimistic. What appears to be a move to exclude sehajdhari to me looks more like one of two things.

1. The necessity of defining terms for purposes of governance in India only.
2. Emotionalism and extremism on the world wide web by very provincial minded individuals and groups, limited to a small number of web sites.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

The "EXCLUSION" per se is from the VOTING LISTS of the SGPC.
The SGPC is the Governign Executive of all Major Historical gurdawaras in areas under its Jurisdiction as per the Gurdawras Act 1925 in Punjab/Haryana/Himachal and for the DGMC in Delhi.

These SIKH "VOTERS" ( who have to be visibly Amritdharees and sign a declaration affirming their total Faith in ONLY the Ten Gurus, SGGS and the Pahul(amrit) and have no other religious affinities )...VOTE in SGPC ELECTIONS to elect SGPC Members...who will then RUN the Gurdawars and Takhats.

There is nothing wrong/excluisve/discriminatory about this.

1. I am a Punjabi Indian originally from India..now malaysian CITIZEN..thus I have RIGHTS to VOTE in Malaysian elections for the Govt of malaysia. For a Voter there are certain RESTRICTIONS. Mnay just arrived Punjabis form India..DONT have this RIGHT..neither od those Punjabis who arrived earlier but who have just PR - permanent residence..etc etc..different laws for different categories. ALL are welcoem to stay here..work here..eat here..BUT VOTE is only for CITIZENS !! Can somebody say this is DISCRIMINATION ?? That Malaysia earns money form non-Citizens..yet discriminates by not allowing them to Vote ?? Same set of Laws apply in every country..I CANNOT VOTE in PUNJAB..i Cannot vote in SGPC elections even though I am also Amrtidharee and satsify ALL the religious requirements...SO ?? what shall I say ?? shout ??? I have also sent money to Darbar sahib..Takhat sahib..so can i VOTE ?? why NOT ?? IS every Single cent in GOLUCKS of Indian Gurdawars contributed ONLY by INDIANS ?? so why take money form NRI's and deny them Votes ?? BUT we KNOW the LAW..and so we keep QUIET. The LAW is the LAW.No one is above the LAW. Period. accept it.
:happysingh::happysingh::happysingh::happysingh::happysingh:

 

[Sinister]

The "EXCLUSION" per se is from the VOTING LISTS of the SGPC.
The SGPC is the Governign Executive of all Major Historical gurdawaras in areas under its Jurisdiction as per the Gurdawras Act 1925 in Punjab/Haryana/Himachal and for the DGMC in Delhi.

These SIKH "VOTERS" ( who have to be visibly Amritdharees and sign a declaration affirming their total Faith in ONLY the Ten Gurus, SGGS and the Pahul(amrit) and have no other religious affinities )...VOTE in SGPC ELECTIONS to elect SGPC Members...who will then RUN the Gurdawars and Takhats.

There is nothing wrong/excluisve/discriminatory about this.

1. I am a Punjabi Indian originally from India..now malaysian CITIZEN..thus I have RIGHTS to VOTE in Malaysian elections for the Govt of malaysia. For a Voter there are certain RESTRICTIONS. Mnay just arrived Punjabis form India..DONT have this RIGHT..neither od those Punjabis who arrived earlier but who have just PR - permanent residence..etc etc..different laws for different categories. ALL are welcoem to stay here..work here..eat here..BUT VOTE is only for CITIZENS !! Can somebody say this is DISCRIMINATION ?? That Malaysia earns money form non-Citizens..yet discriminates by not allowing them to Vote ?? Same set of Laws apply in every country..I CANNOT VOTE in PUNJAB..i Cannot vote in SGPC elections even though I am also Amrtidharee and satsify ALL the religious requirements...SO ?? what shall I say ?? shout ??? I have also sent money to Darbar sahib..Takhat sahib..so can i VOTE ?? why NOT ?? IS every Single cent in GOLUCKS of Indian Gurdawars contributed ONLY by INDIANS ?? so why take money form NRI's and deny them Votes ?? BUT we KNOW the LAW..and so we keep QUIET. The LAW is the LAW.No one is above the LAW. Period. accept it.
:happysingh::happysingh::happysingh::happysingh::happysingh:

that is what i have been saying all along...there is a difference between discrimination and words like distinction, discernment and distinguishment...elements of group formation.

it is the same for every non-profit organization...you can donate but you have no say in the allocation of the funds themselves nor do you have a seat at the board (unless that is you pay enough).

that is all well and good.

what is being expressed here by me?
the beleif that the panth is shrinking and power is being concentrated at the SGPC like an exclusive country club. Couldn't the political organization of sehajdaari's play positive role in shaking up the current SGPC. namely parties like shiromani akali dal (badal)?

the greater utilitarian argument is that all akali dal's have been largely unsuccessful at disasembling badal's power over the SGPC...at the end of the day may even strengthen the panth

 

[ballym]

A true Hindu must have janeu, Muslim must have beard and should not listen to music.
So all have conflicts but they are stiill one. No one is expelled.
What is our problem.
yes, we were given an identity but others were not excluded. Matter ends.... Only problem is if someone attacks if a sehajdhari goes to gurudwara( even keshdharis are attacked!). This is what is being reached at. there are motivated people behind this. Otherwise entire population lives with diffrences. Why not us. We were living with differences. Suddenly it is being made violent, not tolerated any more.
There are hidden motives for sure.

 

[kds1980]

The truth as that if the sehajdhari's are recognised then Turbans will become rare or almost extinct.Almost every teenager sikh boy in his home will ask his parents that when so many sehajdhari's are sikhs then why I am wearing Turban?

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

The truth as that if the sehajdhari's are recognised then Turbans will become rare or almost extinct.Almost every teenager sikh boy in his home will ask his parents that when so many sehajdhari's are sikhs then why I am wearing Turban?

do they really "ask" such questions ?? I thought they cut their hair first and then the parents find out !! Nearly all the ones i know did that...eve a GRANFATHER did that. He is a Gynacologist..with a religious wife...has two teenage children. At first he would "complain complain..every weekend..when his son washed his hair...about the hair beign so long..tangles etc etc and then began to CUT the sons hair FROM INSIDE (center)..when I foudn out..he smiled liek a sheep and said..kesh bahut bhareh hai nah..mera son bolda..sir dukhda...too much hair..my son says headache...and then he came home totally bald.Then his sister who used to trim and pluck eyebrows etc..became shoudler length..the mother cried a bit..and thats it...THEN the Daddy began to wear a woven Cap ALL the time...i suspected he had no hair..a year later i caught him unprepared..then he admitted..i cut the hair but still wear a turban..becasue with a TURBAN..the Chinese think I LOOK MORE like a DOCTOR that cna be respected/trusted !! And its TRUE..his colleague down the street also had asimialr clinic..that sikh cut his hair and discarded hsi turban 30 years ago...his clinets began to drop off like flies...today he is a relative NOTHING..compard to this gyne who is a multi millionaire !! The HIS FATHER who is 80+ also said oen day..OIyeh mein vee katt kar ke vekh laan..OH let me also try cuuting..all my life i wnated to do so..BUT was SCARED fo what people will say...and this man has been a Pardhaan of a Gurdawra for 30 years...its thus TRUE that he is a BHEKHI SINGH who kept the hair/turban only for the SOCIETY..not his conviction...There must be many like this..ALIENS among Sikhs..as the X-Files would say..!!!

 

[curious seeker]

Ushta Ve

Well I can only say, that Sikhs like any one else have to come to grips with what is the essential teachings of their scriptures and what is not. The question of the hair , the turban, etc can only be resolved this way. Is the turban ordered by the SGGS or is it a tradition? Is the hair ordered by the SGGS or is it a tradition? Is the Khalsa, for every Sikh or is an order of the commited to defend the religion? Those are questions that only Sikhs can answer. But they ought to answer them. I would not ever presume to try to answer them.

I will, however, give all you guys a special bit of advice from the heart. A Christian Bishop faced with even worse divisions than Sikhs have today said.

Brethren: In essential things be in agreement. In Non-essentials have liberty and, in the name of God, in all things have love for each other.

Ushta
Curious

 

[kds1980]

do they really "ask" such questions ?? I thought they cut their hair first and then the parents find out !! Nearly all the ones i know did that...eve a GRANFATHER did that. He is a Gynacologist..with a religious wife...has two teenage children

The circumstances differ from family to family..There are families where children sit with their parents discuss their problems and parents do tell them about their problems life etc.While their are families where persons are like North east south west.Each one has his/her own life

 

[spnadmin]

PCJ ji

I have just removed a comment regarding your perspective, SGPC, power, money, and Arnold Schwartzeneggar, Governor of California, and his salary. It had nothing to do with the conversation.

 

[kds1980]

Then why didn't you remove the comments towards me?

This makes me real happy as I learn more about you people, more I understand how lost you people are....

Someone who had even a little bit of self-confidence would at least couter-argue....

You want to curse Sikhism turbaned sikhs,Amrithdari's and anything related to sikhism Yet you want people should not write anything against you.

You have love-hate relations with Sikhs .You can't Live with them You can't live without them

 

[PCJ]

You want to curse Sikhism turbaned sikhs,Amrithdari's and anything related to sikhism Yet you want people should not write anything against you.

You have love-hate relations with Sikhs .You can't Live with them You can't live without them

OK show me what I said about turban, amritdharis and anything related to Sikhism and then prove it that it's any worse than calling people Patit and Saakat and sons of prostitute....

 

[kds1980]

OK show me what I said about turban, amritdharis and anything related to Sikhism and then prove it that it's any worse than calling people Patit and Saakat and sons of prostitute....

Is there anyone on this forum who called you son of prostitute

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Is there anyone on this forum who called you son of prostitute

Kanwardeep ji,

Guru Fateh.

Good question. The same thing happened with me. First PCJ accused me of being angry, offended and upset etc. etc. and when I challenged him to show the posts, he sheepishly said that people on Sikhnet did that.

This kind of character this person has which lacks honesty and hence no open and honest discussion can be held with him because he has shown his true colours of a dishonest person again and again and keep on talking about his Lord but too shamed to say who he/she is.

Tejwant Singh

 

[PCJ]

Is there anyone on this forum who called you son of prostitute

The point here is that what I have been saying about Amritdharis is nothing compared to what they say about others. You people are having tough time accepting what I have to say because you are so used to calling others names without any reaction from the other side that it bothers you when someone like me even tells that you are wrong. You think telling you that you are wrong is like calling you names. This is how spoiled you people are and then you claim to be saints...

Calling me or anybody else names is the same thing. You people call monas Patit and Saakat, do you not? Your Guru compared so-called Saakats to sons of prostitutes, did he not? If you are really an honest person, you would answered this as yes and accept this.

Then how on this earth can you deny any name-calling from your side? But you think even pointing out that you are wrong is like name-calling...

 

[PCJ]

Kanwardeep ji,

Guru Fateh.

Good question. The same thing happened with me. First PCJ accused me of being angry, offended and upset etc. etc. and when I challenged him to show the posts, he sheepishly said that people on Sikhnet did that.

This kind of character this person has which lacks honesty and hence no open and honest discussion can be held with him because he has shown his true colours of a dishonest person again and again and keep on talking about his Lord but too shamed to say who he/she is.

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant, in good debate, this is very important for everyone to be honest. You have no argument at all. That's the reason why you making up stuff that I was being dishonest.

I am more honest you and every Sikh I known so far could ever be...

I warned you because from my experience Sikhs were getting upset and hurt because of my reason to lose faith in Sikhi. Can you understand something so simple? Yes on people on Sikhnet were upset. I just gave you fair warning before I gave you the reason why I lost faith in Sikhi and I only told you why I lost faith in Sikhi because you kept insisting and I knew if I didn't give my reason to lose faith in Sikhi, you would keep using this against me.

You are lying right now. You obviously have no valid argument at all. So, you falsely keep repeating that I am dishonest...

 

[kds1980]

The point here is that what I have been saying about Amritdharis is nothing compared to what they say about others. You people are having tough time accepting what I have to say because you are so used to calling others names without any reaction from the other side that it bothers you when someone like me even tells that you are wrong. You think telling you that you are wrong is like calling you names. This is how spoiled you people are and then you claim to be saints...

Calling me or anybody else names is the same thing. You people call monas Patit and Saakat, do you not? Your Guru compared so-called Saakats to sons of prostitutes, did he not? If you are really an honest person, you would answered this as yes and accept this.

Then how on this earth can you deny any name-calling from your side? But you think even pointing out that you are wrong is like name-calling...

First of all I am not Amritdhari

2nd I have never called anybody patit.Many people don't even know the full meaning of patit they use it for someone becoming a mona or cutting their hair and I don't even know what is saakat?

3rd point I have never considered myself saint neither I call myself

4th point What sikhs do is their matter .The if anyone mona consider himself or herself sikh then he can discuss this issue .You don't consider yourself sikh so you don't have any Right to discuss this issue.

5th point If you are so upset then go and discuss this matter with people who called mona's son of prostitute if any.Why are you blaming all the sikhs for it.You just have revegeful mentality and you just want to take revenge with sikhs whatever previous discussions you have on sikhnet that's why you visit sikh forums and blame each and everybody without even knowing to whom you are discussing with

6th point To be fair here on SPN we don't even know who is Mona, who trims his beard who wax etc unless
someone himself or herself tells it.All are welcome as long as they discuss and abide by the rule's of SPN

 

[ballym]

Point # 7 is added.
Why should we discuss with an unknown entity. What and who are you at persent. We must know your current context. You wereborn sikh. But what now. identify uor thinking and then discuss. I can not discuss with someone who can not identify him/herself.
I do not know if you are formless/ genderless, which gender.
Thanks,
Only request: Play fare game.