Shallow Readings And Meditation

[Harry Rakhraj]

Why is it that from the moment we wake up in the morning, we start striving? We keep striving, struggling, worrying throughout the day…everyday…till we go to sleep. And then we again lie awake for any length of time because of our worries, our fears, our wants, our greed. Why can’t we simply relax with a cup of tea or coffee, our minds Quiet..our minds Still. But we strive! Strive to make a living. Strive to become something, someone. Strive to rid ourselves from some ailment or the other. And then we strive to rid our minds of worry.

Wouldn’t it be something if we could live without strife, without effort? Effortless living! No strife.. no vague sense of Fear. …no wandering of the Mind. Above all, no Chattering inside the head--- that constant , meaningless and incessant chatter? Come to think of it, are we not going through Life as back-seats passengers in a car driven by a stranger? Effortless living….wouldn’t that be Wonderful…heavenly??

From early childhood we’ve been told, we’ve heard, we’ve read and we believe that the Mind—wonderful as it is!---is the cause of all our miseries. And it is true! It’s the mind that makes us angry and jealous and vindictive and greedy and lustful….! And in our own way, each of us tries to control the mind, to keep it from wandering, from chattering inside our head, to let us live in peace….quiet and stillness. Sadly, only a minuscule minority succeeds.

The answer lies, as Bhagat Singh ji rightly points out, in Meditation. Most of us tend to see meditation as some sort of mystery, a practice that will give us mystical (ridhian, sidhian) experiences. It does nothing of the sort. It simply means to watch the mind without choice, without judgment and without any effort.

I never cease to wonder at the irony of it all: The Mind! That most wondrous of God’s gifts. Yet it’s the same mind that’s the culprit where man’s happiness is concerned. It’s a great tool, the greatest by far as compared to man made ones. It gives us the power to conceive of the Unseen, the Unheard, the Untouched…it gives us the power to conceive of the concept of Akaalpurkh..or Waheguru. It gives us the ability to conceive and produce such great things as Art and Music. And, at a more mundane level, the means to traverse vast distances by means of transportation hitherto only in the realm of dreams. It gives us the power to communicate with people all over the world through telephony, Internet.. you name it. And yet, the Mind with all these divine attributes, is the one faculty that is solely responsible for robbing us of that state of mind we value above everything else…Happiness and Peace.

One is bound to come up, sooner or later, with the Question whether, by some act of divine miracle or human magic, there is a way…any way..of controlling this ‘beast’ that makes Life so miserable? The answer, obviously is: NO. There simply is no easy way, magical way to make the mind stop its wandering and creating frightening illusions. But there is a way to watch where the Mind goes when it embarks on its wanderings, when it creates illusions that make us miserable.

And here lies the beauty of what Bhagat Singh ji says: the Simple act of watching the mind while it wanders, of being aware—simply, without judgment, without choice---of its wanderings, STOPS The MIND! Yes, it actually stops wandering….stops chattering inside our heads..stops being the ‘beast’ that constantly haunts us with its unfounded fears, its illusions! The mind becomes Quiet…and Still. It is still live, but lying dormant till such time You, its Master, gives it a command to do your bidding. Somewhat like the fictional ‘gin’ in the bottle? Maybe, but nevertheless, Quiet…Still! This is what Meditation is all about: simply being aware of where the Mind goes on its wanderings…what it is doing or building at any given moment. Tall task? Yes, very! But with devotion and time, it becomes gradually easier and, extremely fulfilling.

One needs no fancy masters or gurus to teach us ‘How to Meditate’. Just knowing the basic fact that forcing the Mind into anything, good or bad only makes it stronger and hence, more recalcitrant. You do not have to concentrate or focus on anything or anyone. All you have to do is to remain mentally awake and alert, mentally aware of the Mind, its wanderings. It’s enough!

Then what, one might ask, when the Mind stops and becomes quiet, if it does? These Questions become the first casualty of the Quiet & Still Mind: they become simply irrelevant. What becomes sharply relevant is a new faculty that is much better tuned to receive and internalize the full import of the divine ‘Gurbani’. It understands what Love is: love without the object of love or even the one that loves. It begins to understand that Love simply is. It does not result in rapture or euphoria. It nevertheless results in the absence of misery, of worry, of fear….And that is :HAPPINESS!

Many hold that simply reading gurbani and not understanding a word is worthless. A while ago, I would have agreed that reading page after page without attempting to understand a word is a pointless task. But there is something to be gained through this practice.

It is certainly beneficial to read and understand gurbani. There is no doubt about this. If one understands the Guru's message and puts it into practice, there is no match for this. The real problem is when one only reads for the sake of reading. I will call this shallow reading, as opposed to deep reading, which includes understanding.

What could it be for?

One may think that maybe it is a first step to connecting with gurbani. That you make a habit of simply reading then you go on to understand. I started that way myself. But this is irrelevant to those who are already connected and continue to practice shallow reading. I am referring to those who read 40 Jap ji's or 100 swaiyes... are they wasting their time?

It is also believed by some that reading gurbani like this will grant them superpowers, ridhiyan sidhiyan. I don't know about that... I don't think many here will take that seriously.

Anyways, I think there is value to be found in shallow readings... first, let's ask ourslves what is meditation?
There's a whole wealth of Meditation techniques from Zen meditation practices to Hindu dhyana to Sufi Islamic traditions. However, even though there are various different kinds of practices they are all developed on the principle of focusing on ONE thing. This is to train the mind to pay attention. The essence of all practices is to quiet down one's thoughts and take notice of our moment to moment experience. Notice how when something horrible happens, our brain goes nuts! All these random thoughts enter into our head, and cause suffering. Actually, horrible things need not happen. Our mind goes crazy and generates horrible thoughts even if we are in pleasant conditiones. Meditation aims to reduce those thoughts, to reduce fear and anxiety. What you are then left with are positive emotions of compassion and forgiveness. We suffer not because there are horrible events but because we have horrible thoughts. Queting these thoughts leads to a pleasant experience.

Meditation has been going on for a long time. People all over the world have wondered whether it was possible to be happy without the company of loved ones,without delicious foods, without drugs! There was a simple experiment people tried. They isolated themselves from these things, essentially from the world. In there isolation they uncovered the secrets of happiness. Later on these techniques became refined and strengthened to be applied while being in the world. One of these is known as the Discipline of Bhagati. We find Guru Sahibs advocating for these practices like Naam Simran and Seva (known holistically as Bhagati). These were powerful in social circumstances. But the principle even here was the same, to focus one's mind.

It is believed that seva in a gurughar is a purely physical task. Given how I have described meditation. It is not difficult to see how seva can be a spiritual task, there is a reason why it is included in Bhagati Yog. When you focus on the task in seva, when you focus all your attention to washing the dishes, handing out the food, making rotis even, then seva gains meditative value and thus spiritual value... that is if you can find a kitchen where the "gnanis" are quiet. Good luck with that!

Perhaps, now it is easy to see how doing shallow readings can have meditative value. If you focus your attention on the words, as you read them, and pay no attention to other thoughts, it becomes more akin to a meditation that we are already familiar with, Naam Japna. A practice has meditative value when it done to quiet one's thoughts, to bring home the wandering mind. naam Japna has meditative value because you focus on the sound of the word. Do you do that when you repeat the naam?

This reminds me of a Sakhi of Guru Nanak where he is invited to a Muslim prayer by these two muslims. Next day Guru Nanak goes over to their mosque. The prayers begin. While they follow their precribed way of praying. Guru Nanak simply stands there with his eyes closed. After the prayers are over those Muslims complain to Guru Nanak that he came but he did not pray. Guru Nanak turns this around and says "you guys invited me yet when prayers began none of you actually prayed, you were focused elsewhere. One was thinking about his business of horses and the other about his family."

Of course, many people don't do prayers in this way, including Sikhs (and of course, many don't read to understand). Even naam japna simply becomes a mindless repitition of words. The mind is left to wander and one constantly suffers. it's important to be mindFUL during meditation, to pay attention to the moment, to pay attention to the task/technique at hand.

What I am saying is that meditation is simply the focusing of one's mind on a task to quiet one's mind. If that is true then shallow readings CAN have meditative value. A sehaj paath that is not understood by the participants but is still listened to and focused upon, can be great for meditation.

Most Sikhs regard Idol worship as a useles ritual. The spirituality related to Hindu worship of idols becomes apparent when we consider the essence of meditation. I am not advocating for this practice nor do I mean to include it in the above mentioned Sikh practices. but it is important to note that if the mind of the idol worshipper is focused, then it has meditative value. Hence, God (happiness) CAN be found in a rock or shallow readings, if only you focus hard enough.

 

[Seeker9]

Another fine thread which I will need to make the time to read through...

As a general observation, I would suggest the purpose of any reading is to take in some level of information which results in a change of understanding/knowledge so you are in a different position to that which you would have been without having read anything at all

Reading itself can require different levels of effort e.g reading a novel or travel directions or studying. Studying can require personal reflection on what you have read to see if you understand it well enough to be examined on it. So, it could be argued that shallow reading of a textbook may not be the best approach to guarantee exam success!

In a similar vein, whilst I would applaud the discipline of making the attempt to read Scripture in the first place, I would suggest shallow reading of Scripture, without an attempt at personal reflection and understanding as well, is ultimately a wasted effort.

How can you use what you have read if you don't understand it???

I sometimes refer to SGGS as an instruction manual written by experts.

If you don't understand the instructions, how will you build anything? You may not be able to build a display cabinet without understanding instructions so why should Scripture be any different?

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

SEEKER9Ji,
Divine Greetings,

With due regard to the views of your message in the post the contents are appreciable.But I would disagree with your ppoint of view on SGGS as instruction manual written by experts.
SGGS is the only Granth in the world which provides complete and perfect knowledge about the WORD GURU known hitherto.In the Granths of other philosophy the word GURU is used in terms as TEACHER only.Whereas the meaning of the word GURU in SGGS is quite different.That is why this is the only Granth being reffered as SGGS.
All other Granths of the world are equally respectable as all provide a distict level of knowledge.I do have equal and great respect of all other Granths too.

The knowledge of SGGS is very specific and so fierce that manytimes we are amazed and may find difficult to digest because of our own ignorance.
I hope you to look into the contents of SGGS to make your own assessment in this regard.
With best wishes

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Ambarsaria]

spn'rs ji: Some inputs for review and comment.

1. "Harry Rakhraj ji: Then what, one might ask, when the Mind stops and becomes quiet, if it does? These Questions become the first casualty of the Quiet & Still Mind: they become simply irrelevant. What becomes sharply relevant is a new faculty that is much better tuned to receive and internalize the full import of the divine ‘Gurbani’."

"Harry Rakhraj ji: The answer lies, as Bhagat Singh ji rightly points out, in Meditation. Most of us tend to see meditation as some sort of mystery, a practice that will give us mystical (ridhian, sidhian) experiences. It does nothing of the sort. It simply means to watch the mind without choice, without judgment and without any effort."

I am sorry you cannot have your cake and eat it too. It is not possible for mind to be quiet ("quiet and still"," Mind stops and becomes quiet" your phrases ) while you are alive. It is a living organism conscious and sub-conscious designed to be active all the time during life just like our heart, our lungs, etc. You actually need mental activites and power to be at full force for better understanding. Mind's silence can be called death while verbal silence can be golden at times.


2. "Bhagat Singh ji: Yes merely doing those things you mention won't help at all. and I understand this is what is commonly done. And it's because meditation itself, the point when you are actually meditating, when the meditation is successful, is actually very hard to get to. The experience of meditation is for most a momentary experience. It is momentary because it is difficult for the mind to stay in this state.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji points to us that ego is what prevents us from getting there. Once the ego is diminished then that state can be activated 24/7 or 8 peher."

Bhagat Singh ji thanks for starting this valuable thread I request a clarification of your thoughts:

A. Give an example from Guru Granth Sahib ji that you want to shallow read having absolutely no or little concept of what it says (word, sentence, sloak, or a bani)?

Reason for clarification:
- Because, you cannot forego a meaning or read without assigning significance of some sort or meaning as the phonetics of the sound itself has a meaning.

- Furthermore once you get assignment of meaning whether it is right or wrong, you can never forego it as mind entries are not eraseable and mind if push comes to shove can retrace majority of its threads and writings or imprints.

3. "Prakash.s.bagga: IT IS EQUALLY IMPORTANT TO KNOW WHAT IS REQUIRED TO BE UNDERSTOOD?"

Comment:

I absolutely appreciate your contributions but may have either mis-read your intent but I do want to make some observations for general discourse not specific to your writing.

I believe the beauty of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is that you don't need to either set expectations or study with the concept of something you are looking for.

The reason being you will most likely find it in the wrong context. There is such a large body that resulted from such in the form of sant, mahants, babey, self-proclaimed gurus, veggie-non-veggie, meditation, elimination of (kam, karodh, lobh, moh and hankar) lectures/parchariks, naam versus "Naam Gurbani", kalyug, 8,400,000 iterations of life, and so on.

The typical methodology is Single words out of context, tuks out of context, and sometimes even sloaks out of context are quoted or used to create a following of believers or virtual groupies.

So bottomline from my understanding is:

The more you read and understand the essence you will be enabled to experience the essence. Many of the trivialities will be gone and you will still have a practical life without trying to control or quieten your mind. As a matter of fact your mind will brim with ideas, understandings and bliss otherwise hard to get.


General not poster specific:
I do see value for meditation in the context of a life driven by schedules, rigours or doing things while doing "kirat" that you really wouldn't be doing if you did not need "kamai". It can be used as a healer and invigorater of your body. Healthy body can lead to healthier mind. However for true spirituality and discovering the God within and everywhere I see little purpose for the same.

Sikhi is so full of great examples of our Gurus who while doing practical activities and living life brought us Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

In sikhi again, Our Gurus also taught us very many practical lessons and providing guidance on kam, karodh, lobh, moh and hankar where the purpose is to control the demons rather than try slaying them for all your life. This is one area also I feel great anguish when I hear some parchariks get the sangat to think in great self-doubt as though they were so maligned, so bad, and so full of faults and with little good in them that they were nothing. In such state of shock, people's wallets open up pretty easily is the stark reality. I wish there was more uplifting in our prachar approach so that we do not alienate our future generations.

Sorry about long post and any indiscretions in quoting, as I believe I am in the company of people who know more than know less.

Sat Sri Akal.peacesign

 

[Archived_member14]

Harry ji, Bhagat ji, All,


Not to be argumentative, but only wish to repeat what I’ve said in previous posts within different context.

My son on seeing that I was spending so much time in my response to Bhagat ji asked why I was doing this, was I trying to change Sikhs to Buddhism? I answered that I was throwing ideas at the people here with the hope that it will be useful at some level, like throwing seeds without thinking to come back to check whether any of them have germinated. But on the other hand I can’t help reacting to the prospect of weeds also growing in the place….


Harry:
Why is it that from the moment we wake up in the morning, we start striving? We keep striving, struggling, worrying throughout the day…everyday…till we go to sleep. And then we again lie awake for any length of time because of our worries, our fears, our wants, our greed. Why can’t we simply relax with a cup of tea or coffee, our minds Quiet..our minds Still. But we strive! Strive to make a living. Strive to become something, someone. Strive to rid ourselves from some ailment or the other. And then we strive to rid our minds of worry.


C: There are also people who go to bed with a smile, wake up with a smile and spend their day without any kind of strife. When asked if they ever have any unwholesome thoughts, would sincerely answer that they don’t. However if and when they hear about and begin to understand what ignorance, attachment, aversion, conceit etc. on one hand really are and what characterizes wholesome states such as generosity, morality, kindness, compassion and so on, they will begin to see that their life is not as they thought it was.

Relaxing with a cup of tea or coffee is desirable for those whose life is full of strife and worries. But they should not then go on to make the mistake of thinking that such is reflection of a life with little ignorance and greed. Our lives are driven by greed for sure; else we wouldn’t even be born! But greed towards apparently simple things is still greed and only adds to the tendency. Better acknowledge this even if nothing can be done about it, than make the mistake of trying to replace one kind of greed with another. Worse is when the association is made with some course of action undertaken and the fact that one is finally able to relax with a cup of tea is seen as a milestone of success.

===========
Harry:
The answer lies, as Bhagat Singh ji rightly points out, in Meditation. Most of us tend to see meditation as some sort of mystery, a practice that will give us mystical (ridhian, sidhian) experiences. It does nothing of the sort. It simply means to watch the mind without choice, without judgment and without any effort.


C: Yes, some people aim for special experiences and that is clearly ignorance and greed at play. Recognizing such obvious manifestations of greed does not however automatically mean that our own perception of things is with wisdom. I may judge another person’s habit of over drinking and getting drunk as wrong and think that I am right in having only a glass of wine with dinner.

The idea of choiceless awareness is attractive and was the hallmark of Krishnamurti’s teachings whose thoughts impressed me very much at one point in my life, but not anymore. Now I recognize what he taught in this regard as being just a more subtle form of self-indulgence. Sincere no doubt, but missing the point.

========
Harry:
I never cease to wonder at the irony of it all: The Mind! That most wondrous of God’s gifts. Yet it’s the same mind that’s the culprit where man’s happiness is concerned.


C: So why don’t you pause for a moment and consider: Is it the “mind” proper, or could it be the different mental concomitants conditioned to arise together with consciousness, one time this and another time that? Misidentification of the problem has grave consequences.

=========
Harry:
It’s a great tool, the greatest by far as compared to man made ones. It gives us the power to conceive of the Unseen, the Unheard, the Untouched…….. It gives us the ability to conceive and produce such great things as Art and Music.


C: And this I see as one consequence of not being able to identify the real enemy, namely ignorance and greed. What is so great about a Rembrandt or a Bach fugue? Ask me.

When I was in my twenties I was interested in music composition. I was being taught music theory for free, by a man who got a doctorate in some conservatoire in Russia because he was impressed by my musical ideas and thought that I could become a very good composer. I used to pride in being original, until one day when I had to acknowledge that a little piece that I had written was in fact influenced by two past composers, Bartok and Prokofiev. I realized at the time that in reality, throughout the history of music, there was no such thing as originality, not Wagner, not Schoenberg, not anyone. This caused me to lose interest and finally drop any ambition towards this end.

Today I recognize the music which still goes on in my head from time to time as being a proliferation no different from any rambling or discursive thinking. So I’d suggest that rather than see a Picasso or a Beethoven as being somehow superior to a graffiti on a wall or a song by Frank Zappa, see it merely as being expressions of the variegated nature of consciousness, acknowledging at the same time, that Beethoven’s greed is not somehow better than that of Zappa’s.

==========
Harry:
One is bound to come up, sooner or later, with the Question whether, by some act of divine miracle or human magic, there is a way…any way..of controlling this ‘beast’ that makes Life so miserable? The answer, obviously is: NO. There simply is no easy way, magical way to make the mind stop its wandering and creating frightening illusions. But there is a way to watch where the Mind goes when it embarks on its wanderings, when it creates illusions that make us miserable.


C: And if you were to one day see that no state of mind in fact lasts longer than a fraction of a finger snap, and if you got a glimpse of the fact that it is ignorance which causes you to think otherwise, would you still react this way? Indeed we often react with aversion to aversion (misery being one manifestation) which causes us to then seek objects to attach to. But clearly this creates more problems does it not? Why misery should be singled out as being a problem when in fact it is just another fleeting phenomenon, one amongst many of which we have no understanding at all about? Is it not then that ignorance is the real enemy and the imperative hence is to develop more understanding of whatever it is that appears now? In other words, why dwell on one aspect of your experience which only leads away from coming to understand the reality now?

===========
Harry:
And here lies the beauty of what Bhagat Singh ji says: the Simple act of watching the mind while it wanders, of being aware—simply, without judgment, without choice---of its wanderings, The MIND STOPS! Yes, it actually stops wandering….stops chattering inside our heads..stops being the ‘beast’ that constantly haunts us with its unfounded fears, its illusions!


C: And what is the “reality” at such times? Is it ‘chatter’, or ‘calm’, or ‘quiet’, or ‘non-wondering’, or ‘non-judgement’? No, these are just “concepts” and are so even if we did not attach any label. The reality which can be understood at the time would be “thinking”, or else the accompanying pleasant, unpleasant or neutral feeling, or the characteristic of consciousness itself could be known. These are the realities as against the associated ideas projected. In other words when the object of consciousness is a ‘thought’, the thought itself is not real, but the ‘thinking’ is. Thoughts do not arise and fall away and if you get the impression that it does, you can be sure that it is just another train of thought coming into play. On the other hand, when any of this is taking place, insight into the ‘thinking’ could arise, being that this is one of the mental phenomena arisen by conditions at the time.

And does the mind stop at any point? This could only be an illusion and yet another instance of thinking, only this time conditioned by the worst of the unwholesome realities, namely wrong understanding.

===========
Harry:
This is what Meditation is all about: simply being aware of where the Mind goes on its wanderings…what it is doing or building at any given moment. Tall task? Yes, very! But with devotion and time, it becomes gradually easier and, extremely fulfilling.


C: Easier and easier by force of attachment and wrong understanding which we all have an infinite supply of. And so we end up just adding to the problem instead of dealing with it in the correct manner.

==========
Harry:
Then what, one might ask, when the Mind stops and becomes quiet, if it does? These Questions become the first casualty of the Quiet & Still Mind: they become simply irrelevant. What becomes sharply relevant is a new faculty that is much better tuned to receive and internalize the full import of the divine ‘Gurbani’. It understands what Love is: love without the object of love or even the one that loves. It begins to understand that Love simply is. It does not result in rapture or euphoria. It nevertheless results in the absence of misery, of worry, of fear….And that is :HAPPINESS!


C: Love.
Next time when it happens, you may notice that a moment of kindness towards a stranger exhibits a quality of mind very different from what you likely feel during meditation. You’d know loving-kindness and how this is different from attachment which we sometimes label as ‘love’ and how one is good while the other is not. You’d also know that this can’t arise without the perception of another being and yes, it does not differentiate between different beings. No idea however, of this being “simply is”. There must be an object towards whom that loving kindness is directed. But it does not matter that it has arisen only once or a little, what matters is that it is the real thing. No aim to make it arise such that one then feels immersed in it.

And what of the possibility of ego coming into play when what has been identified as love is in fact attachment? What if it plays the role of both the one showered over with love and one who emanates it, the insignificant “I” and also the cosmic one?

I’ve been very critical, but please don’t take it wrongly.

 

[Harry Rakhraj]

The time, effort and thought that has obviously gone into this impressive critique by Confused ji shows, to me at least, how seriously he treats the subject. And am indeed grateful to him for doing me the favor of reading my humble offering. This is not to say that I agree or disagree with his critique, only that I appreciate his contribution to the discussion.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

AMBARSARIA Ji,
I agree in totto with your bottomline of understanding with reference to Gurbaani.The experience of essence is what has been reffered as "GOONGE KEE MITHAI" and this is individual experience which can not be shared.
But there is always second aspect of knowledge that is subject of sharing and we are here for this .You will appreciate the fact that the flow of knowledge can not be stopped.
ARCHEMEDESE ran naked to declare what he came to know.
Wecan consider an example of the flow of electricity from the point of generation.Just as electricitylights every bulb or tube it is connected to irrespective of the WATTAGE of Bulb or Tube.Similarly Reading of Gurbaani even without understanding is definitely going enlighten the person depending upon the WATTAGE of his understanding.The only difference would be that a person with knowledge of electricity can make application in different ways for himself and for others.Thus any person properly enlighted with the knowledge can guide others about the correct application of knowledge of Gurbaani
It is this conext I mentionted that it is equally important to know as what isrequired to be understood.and it is an addendum to the previous message.
I am strongly of the view that we are basically required to know how to understand the language of our GURU SGGS .Unless we understand the language we will not be able to make out understanding of the message of GURU.We may not be required to interprate the Gurbaani the way we do.But if we understand the language of our GURU we may not be cheated with wrong interpretation.

If we peep inside ourselves we would find we have accepted and are accepting whateverever is beingtold by few group of persons without understanding and knowing correctness from our SGGS.As a true Gursikh Anyone is required to know the correctness of what is being told.So everyGursikh can verify if he or she understands the language of SGGS.We are doing nothing in this regard.Closing the eyes from the problems will not be a solution.
If still we dont consider our sacred duty towardsSGGS we would be loosing the great treasure handed over to us
I am, only a small Sewak of my GURU.I have no personal interest whatsoever.I simply share my views whereever I feel doing so,
With best wishes
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Seeker9]

SEEKER9Ji,
Divine Greetings,

With due regard to the views of your message in the post the contents are appreciable.But I would disagree with your ppoint of view on Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as instruction manual written by experts.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the only Granth in the world which provides complete and perfect knowledge about the WORD GURU known hitherto.In the Granths of other philosophy the word GURU is used in terms as TEACHER only.Whereas the meaning of the word GURU in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is quite different.That is why this is the only Granth being reffered as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
All other Granths of the world are equally respectable as all provide a distict level of knowledge.I do have equal and great respect of all other Granths too.

The knowledge of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is very specific and so fierce that manytimes we are amazed and may find difficult to digest because of our own ignorance.
I hope you to look into the contents of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to make your own assessment in this regard.
With best wishes

Prakash.S.Bagga

Dear Prakash Ji

Sometimes I over-simplify things!

Many thanks for the clarification

 

[Tejindersinghdelhi]

Dear all,

wjkk,wjkf.

I am commenting to the two issues:

(1) ] piV piV BUlih cotw Kwih ] bhuqu isAwxp Awvih jwih ] nwmu jpY Bau Bojnu Kwie ] gurmuiK syvk rhy smwie ]5] Reading makes one confused and is punished, is not understood from the Mukhwat from Harmandar Sahib ji on 16 Poh. May I submit that the meaning of the stanza has not been properly understood. I give below the correct meaning of this stanza as written by Dr. Sahib Ji who has done the complete interpretation of Guru Granth Sahib ji in ten volumes:
jyhVy mnu`K (iv`idAw) pVH pVH ky (iv`idAw dy mwx ivc hI ismrn qoN) KMuJ jWdy hn auh (Awqmk mOq dIAW) cotW sihMdy hn [ (iv`idAw dI) bhuqI cqurweI dy kwrn jnm mrn dy gyV ivc pYNdy hn [ jyhVw jyhVw mnu`K pRBU dw nwm jpdw hY qy pRBU dy fr-Adb ƒ Awpxy Awqmw dI ^urwk bxWdw hY, auh syvk gurU dI srn pY ky pRBU ivc lIn rihMdy hn [5[
The correct meaning is that by reading too much into any text ( I mean religious texts), makes one proud and if one goes astray from the humbleness and devotion to God, has to be punished because of the "haume" (ahankar of vidya) and thus the Guru Ji has warned that even if one is very learned, one should continue to be humble and devoted to the rememberance of God and Service of the Humanity.

(2) The other toping is : Meditation: I very humbly submit that the word meditation has a different meaning in so far as Guru Granth Sahib ji is concerned and the one that is derieved from the Sanatan texts. In GGS, the word is used to denote that one should read the messages from Guru ji in a composed and calm manner when the mind is still and does not think of any worldly issues. In the process of the meditation in Gurmat, one has not to go to the thoughtless state, but to think positively on the text of Gurbani and take the message enshrined in Gurbani into the think tank and then keep it in memory so that the thought of the Guru is used in our day to day actions of Sewa, Simran and in enriching our lives accordingly. The meditation of Sidhas, Yogis is totally different and has been rejected when Guru ji says : 'Jog na paya, jugat gavai, kit karan sir chaayee payee" So let us not compare the methodology of Meditation of other religions with Gurmat and get confused. Guru ji has praised the practice of Naam Simran everywhere in GGS. I humbly request my friends to kindly give a thought to it. Mind is only a collectinof thoughts and we have to mould our mind according to the thoughts of Guruji enshriend in GGS. animatedkhanda1Tejinder Singh Delhi.

 

[spnadmin]

Tejindersinghdehli ji

I want to put what you wrote inside a fancy picture frame and hang in on the wall where I can see it every day. THANKS I needed to read what you wrote...so clearly ji.

 

[Tejindersinghdelhi]

animatedkhanda1Dear all,wjkk,wjkf. The issue regardng shallow reading and deep reading is a very interesting one. Before me, some of the enlightened souls have attempted answers. I appreciate the same. I feel that mere concentration on any intem of work or words without understanding their meaning and purpose is of only momentary value and it would not lead to any spiritual attainment of calming down of mind, for the reasons for disturbance of mind lie not in the noise outside, but inside in one's thoughts and action. Therefore, Guru Ji devised the system of deep reading of Gurbani and understading its text which has the remedy for all ailments of of our mind, which got disturbed due to illustionment of Maya and distracted the mind from the spiritual path. Therefore, to get back to the spiritual path and purify our mind of the pollutants of Vishe Vikars is Gurbani/Gurshabads. Gurbani has been created in such way that it has a soothing effect on mind like Japuji Sahib, Sukhmani Sahib , Anand Sahib, to name a few, though we get soothing effect while reading, but permanent soothing shall come only when we understand it by deep reading and implementing it in our daily life will change our life from Manmukh to Gurmukh. Mere repition of any particular word shall have no permanent effect on our remoulding of our mind. Gurbani says " Ram Ram sabh jag karda bhire, ram na paya jaye" and Ram Ram sabh ko kahe, kahiyan Ram na hoye,Gurparsadi Ram man vase, tao phal paye koye". The training of our mind has been decribed in detail in " Jat pahara, dheeraj suniar, ahran mat, ved hathiar, bhau khala agan tap tao, bhanda bhao, amrit *** hal, ghariye shabad sachi taksal' in Japuji Sahib. Let us never adocating any benefit from "Idol Worship" or Tota Ratan of any Nam, as advocated by Hindus or Sufis. This would only confuse our Sikhs, if these practices had any advantage, Guru must have added somewhere in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. With regards and all humility, I remain,
Guru Panth da Daas - Tejinder Singh Delhi.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

SHALLOW READING AND MEDITATION

It would be pertinent to know as to what is the method of understanding of Gurbaani
according to GURU SAHIB Ji.This may kindly be elaborated so that we can become aware of the relevent method of understanding.
Simly by mentionintg the importance of understanding is of no use as everyone appreciates it is always better to understand Gurbaani but no one is pointiing how to understand Gurbaani.
We should come forward for this .
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

SHALLOW READING AND MEDITATION

It would be pertinent to know as to what is the method of understanding of Gurbaani
according to GURU SAHIB Ji.This may kindly be elaborated so that we can become aware of the relevent method of understanding.
Simly by mentionintg the importance of understanding is of no use as everyone appreciates it is always better to understand Gurbaani but no one is pointiing how to understand Gurbaani.
We should come forward for this .
Prakash.S.Bagga

Its quite easy...IF we want to understand...

KIV SACHIAARA HOEEAH..kiv kurreh tutteh paal...? How cna we become Sachiarehs..and How can the Wall of Falsehood be broken..??
And the answer is provided..HUKM RAZAEE CHALLNNA !!!

WE KNOW that the Five thieves are roundly condmened in Gurbani...for a start lets try CONTROLLING them...our Lust..our greed..our attachment..our Hankaar..our KRODH...
WE KNOW He is TRUTH..His name is TRUTH..and Gurbani tells us..TRUTH is HIGH higher still is TRUTHFUL LIVING...
Lets begin a Life of TRUTH...tell NO LIES...LIVE no LIES..speak no lies..do no lies..listen to no lies...bein living life TRUTHFULLY...HONESTLY..on our own Hakks and not Praya Haaks...stop peeping at prayeean dheean, bhenna, wives..mothers....stop stealing...stop cheating...

We each has got about an average of 60-70 YEARS to do all this...its not easy..BUT can be DONE..if we want to...we try and we fail..we try again..and again..until we get it...GURBANI is NOT a "Theory of relativity...or Theory of Gravity..or whatever..IRS A PRACTICAL RECIPE to PRACTISE DAILY.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

GIYANI JARNAIL SINGH JI
I fully appreciate your views but I strongly differ as there is no indication of the method of understanding of Gurbaani.These are very clear messages for leading the life.
we have been knowing this for the last many years
If this is so then there is no need for knowing anything else.

With regards
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Tejindersinghdelhi]

Der Parkash Singh Ji ( Bagga),

wjkk,wjkf.

I thank you for asking this very important question as to how do we understand Gurbani. As u know for every language there is a Grammer to understand the exact meaning of a word and sentences that make Gurbani text. Dr.Sahib Singh Ji and Bhai Randhir Singh Ji of Akhand Kirtani Jatha had made Gurbani Grammer and Gurbani Lagan Matra Vilakhanta. In Gurbani, unlike, the use of matras is quite different. For singular and plural, the 'U" di matra has been used for singular noun and without "u" it is for plural noun. Similarly, the use of sihari and bihari are used differently. It may not be possible to discuss all the grammer in this amall reply. I would request u to please procure the one from SGPC or any other punjabi book seller. Besides, the full interpretation of Gurbani of Guru Granth Sahib Ji has been done in 10 volumes by Dr. Sahib Singh Ji and are available from SGPC and Bhasha Vibhag, Patiala. Unless we read Gurbani by understanding on knowing its exact meaning, the exact impact of Gurbani in shaping our lives and getting us rid of evils through practicising Dos and Donts as illustrated in Gurbani, shall not be possible. I also suggest u regularly attend some Gurmat classes in your city or town. In due course of time, u will definitely, I am sure, not only be able to understand Gurbani but also tell others. The real import of Gurbani reading, understand is to shape our lives according to the directions enshrined in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the impact of Meditation on Gurbani text shall be felt by everyone who undergoes this session. May Waheguru ji bless us all and lead us to understanding Gurbani. This is the living Treasure left by our Gurus for the benefit of their disciples in this Kalyuga. With best regards and Gur Fateh.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

TEJINDERSINGH DELHI JI,
Pl accept my Divine Greetings,
I am greatly delighted to have seen your response in reference to the understanding of Gurbaani.You have rightly pointed out the way Gurbaani should be understand.
You will also appreciate the fact that generally people are not interested in this way of Gurbaani understanding.People find the Subject Grammer as dry and are hardly prepared to accept the meanings if presented based on the grammer of the words.
I am strong advocate for gramatical understanding of Gurbaani.

By the grace of SATiGURu Ji I am well conversant with the pattern of Gurbaani Grammer.I have already gone thru in detail the books you have mentioned.But so far as even their interpretations of Gurbaani is concerned I find that grammatical considerations seem to have been ommitted for reasons best known to the interprators.

If we really are serious in understanding Gurbaani as per Grammatical considerations we will have to be verry very fair to the application of grammer.Once we are able to do this we are certainly going to have a new vista of Gurbaani understanding never imagined so far.

I am sure all viewers would give a due consideration to this .
Once again thanking you
With best wishes

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Ambarsaria]

Parkash S. Bagga ji thanks for your post and insights.

I would like to know from you and Aman Singh ji as to your ranking of the most appropriate translation existing todate in the following categories:

1. Gurmukhi to Gurmakhi
   • I have been lately reading parts of Prof. Sahib Singh ji's Viakaran and Professor Sahib have indicated his own limits in interpreting noting the following,
     • Translation no matter how accurate can be tainted on translator's training, upbringing and knowledge
     • The Gurbani contents cover a span of almost 500 years taking Baba Farid ji's portion into account
       • Professor Sahib Singh ji note that Punjabi itself changed over that time span and one needs to sink into that mental space and time to do justice
     • The references to Hindu, Islam practices and stories about various dieties in Hinduism are very difficult to translate in meaning unless one has studied or good understanding of those myths/novels/writings
       • Professor Sahib Singh ji has added lot of great explanations to elaborate where these occur so that people get better essence of the translation/arths
       • I personally am pretty deficient in this area other than Ram lellah level understanding of Ramayan from watching these Ram lellah plays around Diwali in Amritsar
   • Would I be fair to assign the following ranking and I would like to get a list of say top 3,
     1. Professor Sahib Singh ji Viakaran
     2. ?
     3. ?
2. Gurmukhi to English
   • This is a much simpler task if one basis it on a reference work as identified in 1 above
   • Even I can translate some shabads say from Professor Sahib Singh ji's Viakaran
     • Some of the translations I have seen tend to be virtually literal or near to literal versus what Professor Sahib Singh ji's Viakaran which does literal, transcribed to prose and finally translated to essence.
       • Professor Sahib Singh ji point out that unless you see and read Guru Granth Sahib ji as in the following that you will not be successful in understanding Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji,
         • As written -> literal simplified meaning -> essence of the sloak -> then the complete Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

I appreciate your comments, inputs and guidance in this regard.

Sat Sri Akal

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

AMBARSARIA Ji,

Pl accept my Divine Greetings,

I thank you for considering to present my views in subject matter mentioned in your post.

It would me a great pleasure for me if any of my views can be of any use for your perusal of Gurbaani.Your question has put me in a state of being nervous to present any views on the subject matter. However I shall try my best to put my views in the most positive way.

As you are already going thru the Gurbaani interpretations undertaken by Pro SAHIB SINGH Ji. It self it is a good start and I am sure you must be gaining useful understanding of Gurbaani. In this connection I may suggest to go thru two volumes of Gurbaani Grammar written by S JOGINDER SINGH TALWARA Ji. I find the Grammar treatise of Prof SAHIB SINGH Ji a bit hard to comprehend for the beginners.For this Gurbaani grammar by S JOGINDER SINGH TALWARA Ji is better for easy understanding of grammar of Gurbaani words.
GURMUKHI to GURMUKHI interpretations:...

The contribution of different interpreters is most respectable as all have put their best efforts to present the interpretations as close as possible to the grammar considerations.There are some deviations in all due to certain unmentioned limitations.

We all should be grateful for their contributions.Their contributions are definitely going to guide to the further interpretations of Gurbaani.

My observation is that so far everyone has made interpretation without consideration of the CORE CONCEPT OF GURBAANI. Probably this is the major cause of deviations in interpretations. All interpreters did talk of Gurbaani grammar but all overlooked the sincere application of grammar.

So in view of above consideration all interpretations can be put at PAR and no no 12or 3 can be assigned for the quality of interpretation.

GURMUKHI to ENGLISH:......

Here at the first place you can observe that while making transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji from GURMUKHI to ENGLISH there is absolute change in the form of Gurbaani words from grammar point of view. So there is very grim situation for correct interpretation of Gurbaani as per English Version of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. That is why probably even Prof Sahib Singh has rightly mentioned that it would be better to go thru Gurmukhi version also to get the correct understanding of Gurbaani.

So this is a matter of grave concern for understanding Gurbaani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji .

Here I may take an opportunity to mention about the CORE CONCEPT OF GURBAANI. By CORE CONCEPT OF GURBAANI I mean BASIC CONCEPT around which moves the understanding of the whole Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. If this can be understood based on grammatical consideration of three PRIME WORDS of Gurbaani GURU/GURu and GUR then with knowledge of just vocabulary of Gurbaani words I feel any one can ask for the GRACE of SATiGURU ji to get the understanding of the whole of Gurbaani of his own.

We can only observe and share our views on the observations but the actual understanding of Gurbaani shall be given by SATiGURu Ji only.

I hope this may be just enough and I may be excused for any mistake in presenting the views.

May SATiGURu Ji overlook anything wrong presented.

With best Wishes

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Tejindersinghdelhi]

Dear Parkash Singh (Bagga) ji, waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh. I am in total agreement with your explanations and views on the Gurbani understnding on the basis of Gurbani grammers currently in the market. We stoutly salute those Gurmukhs like Dr.Sahib Singh Ji, Bhai Randhir Singh Ji and Bhai Joginder Singh Talwara, for their pioneering efforts in this direction. I also appreciate your understanding of the Gurbani Grammer and the analysis presented by you of differnt grammers. I also agree that the best Gurbani understanding can be only on the basis of Gurbani Grammer and not without it whatever the amount of devotion or energy put into it. One can not learn Sanskrit, English, Latin or French based only on devotion without following their Grammer. We must stress on reading the original text of Gurbani as enshrined in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and understand its basic principles. Any translation can be based only on the basis of clariity of these themes which form the core of Sikh Philisophy as revealed in the Gurbani Text of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I wish S.Parkash Singh could take a lead and start and Gurbani Grammer understanding course step by step for the benefit of on line students like me. I am sure S.Parkash Singh would definitely take up this challenge willingly and offer his invaluable services for the Panthic cause. With regards,

Tejinder Singh Delhi.

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

Dear Parkash Singh (Bagga) ji, waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh. I am in total agreement with your explanations and views on the Gurbani understnding on the basis of Gurbani grammers currently in the market. We stoutly salute those Gurmukhs like Dr.Sahib Singh Ji, Bhai Randhir Singh Ji and Bhai Joginder Singh Talwara, for their pioneering efforts in this direction. I also appreciate your understanding of the Gurbani Grammer and the analysis presented by you of differnt grammers. I also agree that the best Gurbani understanding can be only on the basis of Gurbani Grammer and not without it whatever the amount of devotion or energy put into it. One can not learn Sanskrit, English, Latin or French based only on devotion without following their Grammer. We must stress on reading the original text of Gurbani as enshrined in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and understand its basic principles. Any translation can be based only on the basis of clariity of these themes which form the core of Sikh Philisophy as revealed in the Gurbani Text of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I wish S.Parkash Singh could take a lead and start and Gurbani Grammer understanding course step by step for the benefit of on line students like me. I am sure S.Parkash Singh would definitely take up this challenge willingly and offer his invaluable services for the Panthic cause. With regards,

Tejinder Singh Delhi.

Please forgive me, Tejinder Singh Delhi ji. Please forgive me, Ambarsaria ji. Please indulge me, moderators. I cannot be silent any longer. It's spelled g-r-a-m-m-a-r, grammar. I know this isn't the point, but surely, spelling is as important as grammar? :noticekudi: