Sikhi After Life

[Harry Haller]

I put to all of you that Sikhi after life is nothing short of an excellent oxy{censored}.

But now I am curious, to my mind, Sikhi must be practiced during life, every breathing moment, so I would ask what aspect of Sikhi is practiced in the alleged afterlife?

Is everything perfect? are the five thieves dead? is temptation no more? what do you spend all day doing? Do they have Range Rovers?

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

I know we are supposed to post full passages... (I'm not sure how to tell when one begins and when one ends... as a side note is it when it says 'First Mehl' that a new one begins??) Sorry for the long quote of Gurbani I wanted to make sure I copied the whole thing...

Anyway how one views reality is going to affect how they interpret Gurbani. Those who believe the physical word is 'IT' and that the creator is really referring to the Universe itself without any 'persona' then those people will naturally believe that when it says we 'merge' back with the creator, it really means the end for us and that our bodies become worm food.

For those of us who believe that not matter but a universal field (consciousness itself perhaps) or some deeper nonphysical truth is the basis of reality and matter is the illusion, then to us (myself included) will interpret Gurbani to mean merging back with the creator in a conscious way (ie we transcend physical death). In fact, I believe that when it says we merge back with the ONE we are really just waking up to who we really are... because I believe that there really is only ONE in existence and we are the dream of the creator. - Hence there really is no death - because we were never separate from the ONE to begin with... and THAT I believe is what the truth is...

What I have trouble with is all of the places Gurbani tells us that through naam etc we can transcend death... If it really means 'sorry mate you're gonna cease to exist and become worm food'... I don't see how there is any chance of transcending death (how could that even be a poetic meaning??'... and this one line gets to me every time I read it "To reach your true home when you die, you must conquer death while still alive." This to me (along with the rest of the passage I quoted below) seems to suggest that there IS a 'home' or place we go after death, and that the TRUE home is to unite back with the creator and that to conquer death (or death and rebirth) we must awaken to our true nature (which is spiritual and not merely physical) before we die. It even mentions that we need to realize our 'own self' by going within and recognizing the divine light within us all. I think that means we need to awaken to the fact that we are spiritual beings not just physical and as spirutual in nature we are part of that nonphysical creator.

Or else if you go by what the atheists believe, it's a lot of meaningless poetry that seems to get people's hopes up of surviving physical death, when there really is no hope and our lives are really just by chance. It could have been said easier by just saying 'hey mate you might as well give up because when you're gone thats it and nothing you do matters because everyone who is here to witness what you do will also die and cease to exist and beocme worm food'

The boat of 'truth' will ferry you across... across where???

The 'ONE' who formed the Universe... suggests that the Universe didn't just form itself without guidance. If it's a metaphor for 'truth' then why not use the word for 'underlying truth' instead?? Using this descriptor seems to suggest a persona who created.

"Without Virtue, it is useless, the body shall crumble into a pile of dust. O my mind, earn the profit before you return home." How can the mind return home if its exists as simply part of the body which has turned to dust? This suggests clearly, that with virtue the mind can transcend this. Because with or without virtue...the physical body will succumb to the same fate... so it's clearly talking about something else beyond the physical body... so if not our body, then just what exactly returns to its true home with virtue?

Anyway this is just MY PERSONAL belief... I know there a many Sikhs on here who are athiest and are totally satisfied thinking that they will become worm food and that death is the end and everything goes black... but for me that just doesn't make sense.

<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥


Sirīrāg mėhlā 1.

Siree Raag, First Mehl:



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਾਨਕ ਬੇੜੀ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਤਰੀਐ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥


Nānak beṛī sacẖ kī ṯarī▫ai gur vīcẖār.

O Nanak, the Boat of Truth will ferry you across; contemplate the Guru.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਇਕਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਇਕਿ ਜਾਵਹੀ ਪੂਰਿ ਭਰੇ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ॥


Ik āvahi ik jāvhī pūr bẖare ahaʼnkār.

Some come, and some go; they are totally filled with egotism.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਮਨਹਠਿ ਮਤੀ ਬੂਡੀਐ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਚੁ ਸੁ ਤਾਰਿ ॥੧॥


Manhaṯẖ maṯī būdī▫ai gurmukẖ sacẖ so ṯār. ||1||

Through stubborn-mindedness, the intellect is drowned; one who becomes Gurmukh and truthful is saved. ||1||



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਕਿਉ ਤਰੀਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥


Gur bin ki▫o ṯarī▫ai sukẖ ho▫e.

Without the Guru, how can anyone swim across to find peace?



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਉ ਰਾਖੁ ਤੂ ਮੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ਕੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥


Ji▫o bẖāvai ṯi▫o rākẖ ṯū mai avar na ḏūjā ko▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.

As it pleases You, Lord, You save me. There is no other for me at all. ||1||Pause||



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਆਗੈ ਦੇਖਉ ਡਉ ਜਲੈ ਪਾਛੈ ਹਰਿਓ ਅੰਗੂਰੁ ॥


Āgai ḏekẖ▫a▫u da▫o jalai pācẖẖai hari▫o angūr.

In front of me, I see the jungle burning; behind me, I see green plants sprouting.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਉਪਜੈ ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਸਚੁ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥


Jis ṯe upjai ṯis ṯe binsai gẖat gẖat sacẖ bẖarpūr.

We shall merge into the One from whom we came. The True One is pervading each and every heart.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਹੀ ਸਾਚੈ ਮਹਲਿ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥੨॥


Āpe mel milāvahī sācẖai mahal haḏūr. ||2||

He Himself unites us in Union with Himself; the True Mansion of His Presence is close at hand. ||2||



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਾਹਿ ਸਾਹਿ ਤੁਝੁ ਸੰਮਲਾ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਵਿਸਾਰੇਉ ॥


Sāhi sāhi ṯujẖ sammlā kaḏe na vesāra▫o.

With each and every breath, I dwell upon You; I shall never forget You.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਸਾਹਬੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੇਉ ॥


Ji▫o ji▫o sāhab man vasai gurmukẖ amriṯ pe▫o.

The more the Lord and Master dwells within the mind, the more the Gurmukh drinks in the Ambrosial Nectar.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਤੂ ਧਣੀ ਗਰਬੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਸਮੇਉ ॥੩॥


Man ṯan ṯerā ṯū ḏẖaṇī garab nivār same▫o. ||3||

Mind and body are Yours; You are my Master. Please rid me of my pride, and let me merge with You. ||3||



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜਿਨਿ ਏਹੁ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਕਰਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥


Jin ehu jagaṯ upā▫i▫ā ṯaribẖavaṇ kar ākār.

The One who formed this universe created the creation of the three worlds.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਮੁਗਧੁ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥


Gurmukẖ cẖānaṇ jāṇī▫ai manmukẖ mugaḏẖ gubār.

The Gurmukh knows the Divine Light, while the foolish self-willed manmukh gropes around in the darkness.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਤਰੀ ਬੂਝੈ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੪॥


Gẖat gẖat joṯ niranṯrī būjẖai gurmaṯ sār. ||4||

One who sees that Light within each and every heart understands the Essence of the Guru's Teachings. ||4||



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਿਨੀ ਜਾਣਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਕੀਚੈ ਸਾਬਾਸਿ ॥


Gurmukẖ jinī jāṇi▫ā ṯin kīcẖai sābās.

Those who understand are Gurmukh; recognize and applaud them.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਚੇ ਸੇਤੀ ਰਲਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਸਚੇ ਗੁਣ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥


Sacẖe seṯī ral mile sacẖe guṇ pargās.

They meet and merge with the True One. They become the Radiant Manifestation of the Excellence of the True One.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੰਤੋਖੀਆ ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੫॥੧੬॥


Nānak nām sanṯokẖī▫ā jī▫o pind parabẖ pās. ||5||16||

O Nanak, they are contented with the Naam, the Name of the Lord. They offer their bodies and souls to God. ||5||16||



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥


Sirīrāg mėhlā 1.

Siree Raag, First Mehl:



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸੁਣਿ ਮਨ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਪਿਆਰਿਆ ਮਿਲੁ ਵੇਲਾ ਹੈ ਏਹ ॥


Suṇ man miṯar pi▫āri▫ā mil velā hai eh.

Listen, O my mind, my friend, my darling: now is the time to meet the Lord.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜਬ ਲਗੁ ਜੋਬਨਿ ਸਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਤਬ ਲਗੁ ਇਹੁ ਤਨੁ ਦੇਹ ॥


Jab lag joban sās hai ṯab lag ih ṯan ḏeh.

As long as there is youth and breath, give this body to Him.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਣ ਕਾਮਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਢਹਿ ਢੇਰੀ ਤਨੁ ਖੇਹ ॥੧॥


Bin guṇ kām na āvī dẖėh dẖerī ṯan kẖeh. ||1||

Without virtue, it is useless; the body shall crumble into a pile of dust. ||1||



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਲੈ ਲਾਹਾ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥


Mere man lai lāhā gẖar jāhi.

O my mind, earn the profit, before you return home.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਲਾਹੀਐ ਹਉਮੈ ਨਿਵਰੀ ਭਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥


Gurmukẖ nām salāhī▫ai ha▫umai nivrī bẖāhi. ||1|| rahā▫o.

The Gurmukh praises the Naam, and the fire of egotism is extinguished. ||1||Pause||



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸੁਣਿ ਸੁਣਿ ਗੰਢਣੁ ਗੰਢੀਐ ਲਿਖਿ ਪੜਿ ਬੁਝਹਿ ਭਾਰੁ ॥


Suṇ suṇ gandẖaṇ gandẖī▫ai likẖ paṛ bujẖėh bẖār.

Again and again, we hear and tell stories; we read and write and understand loads of knowledge,



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਅਗਲੀ ਹਉਮੈ ਰੋਗੁ ਵਿਕਾਰੁ ॥


Ŧarisnā ahinis aglī ha▫umai rog vikār.

but still, desires increase day and night, and the disease of egotism fills us with corruption.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਓਹੁ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ਅਤੋਲਵਾ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੨॥


Oh veparvāhu aṯolvā gurmaṯ kīmaṯ sār. ||2||

That Carefree Lord cannot be appraised; His Real Value is known only through the Wisdom of the Guru's Teachings. ||2||



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਲਖ ਸਿਆਣਪ ਜੇ ਕਰੀ ਲਖ ਸਿਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਪੁ ॥


Lakẖ si▫āṇap je karī lakẖ si▫o parīṯ milāp.

Even if someone has hundreds of thousands of clever mental tricks, and the love and company of hundreds of thousands of people -



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਬਿਨੁ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਾਧ ਨ ਧ੍ਰਾਪੀਆ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਦੂਖ ਸੰਤਾਪੁ ॥


Bin sangaṯ sāḏẖ na ḏẖarāpī▫ā bin nāvai ḏūkẖ sanṯāp.

still, without the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, he will not feel satisfied. Without the Name, all suffer in sorrow.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਜੀਅਰੇ ਛੁਟੀਐ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚੀਨੈ ਆਪੁ ॥੩॥


Har jap jī▫are cẖẖutī▫ai gurmukẖ cẖīnai āp. ||3||

Chanting the Name of the Lord, O my soul, you shall be emancipated; as Gurmukh, you shall come to understand your own self. ||3||



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਪਹਿ ਵੇਚਿਆ ਮਨੁ ਦੀਆ ਸਿਰੁ ਨਾਲਿ ॥


Ŧan man gur pėh vecẖi▫ā man ḏī▫ā sir nāl.

I have sold my body and mind to the Guru, and I have given my mind and head as well.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਖੋਜਿ ਢੰਢੋਲਿਆ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਖੋਜਿ ਨਿਹਾਲਿ ॥


Ŧaribẖavaṇ kẖoj dẖandẖoli▫ā gurmukẖ kẖoj nihāl.

I was seeking and searching for Him throughout the three worlds; then, as Gurmukh, I sought and found Him.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਤਗੁਰਿ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੪॥੧੭॥


Saṯgur mel milā▫i▫ā Nānak so parabẖ nāl. ||4||17||

The True Guru has united me in Union, O Nanak, with that God. ||4||17||



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥


Sirīrāg mėhlā 1.

Siree Raag, First Mehl:



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਮਰਣੈ ਕੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਨਹੀ ਜੀਵਣ ਕੀ ਨਹੀ ਆਸ ॥


Marṇai kī cẖinṯā nahī jīvaṇ kī nahī ās.

I have no anxiety about dying, and no hope of living.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਤੂ ਸਰਬ ਜੀਆ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲਹੀ ਲੇਖੈ ਸਾਸ ਗਿਰਾਸ ॥


Ŧū sarab jī▫ā parṯipālahī lekẖai sās girās.

You are the Cherisher of all beings; You keep the account of our breaths and morsels of food.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਅੰਤਰਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤੂ ਵਸਹਿ ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਉ ਨਿਰਜਾਸਿ ॥੧॥


Anṯar gurmukẖ ṯū vasėh ji▫o bẖāvai ṯi▫o nirjās. ||1||

You abide within the Gurmukh. As it pleases You, You decide our allotment. ||1||



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜੀਅਰੇ ਰਾਮ ਜਪਤ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨੁ ॥


Jī▫are rām japaṯ man mān.

O my soul, chant the Name of the Lord; the mind will be pleased and appeased.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਅੰਤਰਿ ਲਾਗੀ ਜਲਿ ਬੁਝੀ ਪਾਇਆ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥


Anṯar lāgī jal bujẖī pā▫i▫ā gurmukẖ gi▫ān. ||1|| rahā▫o.

The raging fire within is extinguished; the Gurmukh obtains spiritual wisdom. ||1||Pause||

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<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>ਅੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲੀਐ ਸੰਕ ਉਤਾਰਿ ॥


Anṯar kī gaṯ jāṇī▫ai gur milī▫ai sank uṯār.

Know the state of your inner being; meet with the Guru and get rid of your skepticism.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਮੁਇਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਤਿਤੁ ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਮਰੁ ਮਾਰਿ ॥


Mu▫i▫ā jiṯ gẖar jā▫ī▫ai ṯiṯ jīvḏi▫ā mar mār.

To reach your True Home after you die, you must conquer death while you are still alive.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦਿ ਸੁਹਾਵਣੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥੨॥

Anhaḏ sabaḏ suhāvaṇe pā▫ī▫ai gur vīcẖār. ||2||

The beautiful, Unstruck Sound of the Shabad is obtained, contemplating the Guru. ||2||



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਅਨਹਦ ਬਾਣੀ ਪਾਈਐ ਤਹ ਹਉਮੈ ਹੋਇ ਬਿਨਾਸੁ ॥


Anhaḏ baṇī pā▫ī▫ai ṯah ha▫umai ho▫e binās.

The Unstruck Melody of Gurbani is obtained, and egotism is eliminated.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਹਉ ਸਦ ਕੁਰਬਾਣੈ ਤਾਸੁ ॥


Saṯgur seve āpṇā ha▫o saḏ kurbāṇai ṯās.

I am forever a sacrifice to those who serve their True Guru.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਖੜਿ ਦਰਗਹ ਪੈਨਾਈਐ ਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ॥੩॥


Kẖaṛ ḏargėh painā▫ī▫ai mukẖ har nām nivās. ||3||

They are dressed in robes of honor in the Court of the Lord; the Name of the Lord is on their lips. ||3||



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲੁ ॥


Jah ḏekẖā ṯah rav rahe siv sakṯī kā mel.

Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of consciousness and matter.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਗੁਣ ਬੰਧੀ ਦੇਹੁਰੀ ਜੋ ਆਇਆ ਜਗਿ ਸੋ ਖੇਲੁ ॥


Ŧarihu guṇ banḏẖī ḏehurī jo ā▫i▫ā jag so kẖel.

The three qualities hold the body in bondage; whoever comes into the world is subject to their play.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਵਿਜੋਗੀ ਦੁਖਿ ਵਿਛੁੜੇ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਲਹਹਿ ਨ ਮੇਲੁ ॥੪॥


vijogī ḏukẖ vicẖẖuṛe manmukẖ lahėh na mel. ||4||

Those who separate themselves from the Lord wander lost in misery. The self-willed manmukhs do not attain union with Him. ||4||



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਮਨੁ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਘਰਿ ਵਸੈ ਸਚ ਭੈ ਰਾਤਾ ਹੋਇ ॥


Man bairāgī gẖar vasai sacẖ bẖai rāṯā ho▫e.

If the mind becomes balanced and detached, and comes to dwell in its own true home, imbued with the Fear of God,



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਗਿਆਨ ਮਹਾਰਸੁ ਭੋਗਵੈ ਬਾਹੁੜਿ ਭੂਖ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥


Gi▫ān mahāras bẖogvai bāhuṛ bẖūkẖ na ho▫e.

then it enjoys the essence of supreme spiritual wisdom; it shall never feel hunger again.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਾਨਕ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਮਿਲੁ ਭੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਦੁਖੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥੫॥੧੮॥


Nānak ih man mār mil bẖī fir ḏukẖ na ho▫e. ||5||18||

O Nanak, conquer and subdue this mind; meet with the Lord, and you shall never again suffer in pain. ||5||18||

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

[spnadmin]

Akasha ji I am not going to reply to your post at this time. I am going to acknowledge and thank you for getting this thread back on a serious path.

 

[Luckysingh]

This kind of topic always causes confusion and tends to sidetrack to reincarnation.
My question is ' if there is an afterlife, as in a place we are at after death, then how can we keep reincarnating' ??
Doesn't quite add up does it ?

What is primary and fundamental is what we do 'NOW' not for later or for the next life, but for the life we have now.
To me, this tells me-
-No point to just be doing good deeds of charity,etc.. so that you think you will be born in a better place next time.
- It doesn't mean that a prostitute is such because in her previous life she was a sex maniac and rapist.
- and neither does it mean that you are the reincarnation of your dear missed Grandad who died a few months before your birth!
I could go on but it will go off topic into reincarnation again !!

Getting back to the afterlife, I think the question really is -
'Is this life all there is ? and 'What will I really experience after death if anything' ?

My answer to this is that i shouldn't be worrying about the after life when i haven't fulfilled all that i can do or be in this life !!
Or better still, - I don't think that i have the right to question this when I am spending my whole life learning and fixing myself.
So when do or can I have the right to question this ??
After I have achieved and fixed myself by conducting on the highest order as per Guru.
I think that my life should be focused on trying to become Gurmukh as per gurbani whilst alive and not focused on where i shall be in my afterlife. If and when I become gurmukh, then I may have a much better idea of what happens next.

Let's say that to get to gurmukh status is the destination and train ride that i am on now. The gurmukh station is like the heart of the transit where all other lines join like we have London Euston, New York Grand central etc.. These are the stations where one has to stop at on longer journeys or they change lines for further destinations.
In the same way, you can't get to your further or end destination unless you first get to the Gurmukh station. Therefore, why try and plan or guess the line that will take you further when the only place it can officially be confirmed is the Gurmukh station ?

You have to learn to crawl before you learn to walk (Aerosmith!)

 

[Tejwant Singh]

The initial question begs the meaning of "life" from the thread starter. Once we know its meaning, then only we can talk about afterlife.

 

[spnadmin]

Sat sri akaal

lets discuss "Sikhi Afterlife " in light of Gurbani,what you think ,kindly gave your views

sri waheguru ji ki fateh
​

Tejwant ji

I am just pulling up the OP so readers can see it without paging back for discussion.

Yes --- what is meant by "life" and by "afterlife" according to the intentions of the poster Harmanpreet Singh?

 

[Ishna]

Akasha ji

For those of us who believe that not matter but a universal field (consciousness itself perhaps) or some deeper nonphysical truth is the basis of reality and matter is the illusion, then to us (myself included) will interpret Gurbani to mean merging back with the creator in a conscious way (ie we transcend physical death).

This would required us to have a personal consciousness within us that is not a product of our physical bodies. Is this what you believe?

In fact, I believe that when it says we merge back with the ONE we are really just waking up to who we really are... because I believe that there really is only ONE in existence and we are the dream of the creator. - Hence there really is no death - because we were never separate from the ONE to begin with... and THAT I believe is what the truth is...

No death and no birth either? Do you have to die to merge back with the one, or can you "die while alive"?

What I have trouble with is all of the places Gurbani tells us that through naam etc we can transcend death... If it really means 'sorry mate you're gonna cease to exist and become worm food'... I don't see how there is any chance of transcending death (how could that even be a poetic meaning??'... and this one line gets to me every time I read it "To reach your true home when you die, you must conquer death while still alive." This to me (along with the rest of the passage I quoted below) seems to suggest that there IS a 'home' or place we go after death, and that the TRUE home is to unite back with the creator and that to conquer death (or death and rebirth) we must awaken to our true nature (which is spiritual and not merely physical) before we die. It even mentions that we need to realize our 'own self' by going within and recognizing the divine light within us all. I think that means we need to awaken to the fact that we are spiritual beings not just physical and as spirutual in nature we are part of that nonphysical creator.

See I get a completely different interpretation of this shabad.


The boat of truth ferrys you across the turbulance of the world-ocean, of the ups-and-downs of life - not between death and the afterlife. It's the mind that drowns in everyday struggles and duality and maya. Without Guru, how can we have peace in this world-ocean? "In front of me, I see the jungle burning; behind me, I see green plants sprouting." The past is calm in hindsight but the future is a jungle of fearful uncertainty. "He Himself unites us in Union with Himself; the True Mansion of His Presence is close at hand." Close at hand here and now! "Mind and body are Yours; You are my Master. Please rid me of my pride, and let me merge with You. ||3||" Does it say Please rid me of my pride and kill me [i.e. kill me physically so I can merge with You?" "One who sees that Light within each and every heart understands the Essence of the Guru's Teachings. ||4||" We're already merged, we're already in the ocean of light, we just need to realise it. "O Nanak, they are contented with the Naam, the Name of the Lord. They offer their bodies and souls to God. ||5||16|| " PS, this was the last line of the first Shabad.

We need a member with teh smartz to translate and analyse this tuk for us please, as it is the only line that remotely even suggests anything continuing after life IMHO:

ਮੁਇਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਤਿਤੁ ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਮਰੁ ਮਾਰਿ ॥


Mu▫i▫ā jiṯ gẖar jā▫ī▫ai ṯiṯ jīvḏi▫ā mar mār.

To reach your True Home after you die, you must conquer death while you are still alive.

However if you're dead while alive you've already died.

Or else if you go by what the atheists believe, it's a lot of meaningless poetry that seems to get people's hopes up of surviving physical death, when there really is no hope and our lives are really just by chance. It could have been said easier by just saying 'hey mate you might as well give up because when you're gone thats it and nothing you do matters because everyone who is here to witness what you do will also die and cease to exist and beocme worm food'

Humbly I disagree 100%.

"Without Virtue, it is useless, the body shall crumble into a pile of dust. O my mind, earn the profit before you return home." How can the mind return home if its exists as simply part of the body which has turned to dust?

Precisely, so perhaps 'return home' doesn't mean what you think it means (or what I think it means).

:whatzpointkudi:

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Ishna ji,

Guru Fateh.

First of all I want to congratulate you for your understanding of the Shabad with which I happen to agree.

I must admit that I am no expert in Gurbani but I will give it a shot.

Death is the fear that most of the religions have instilled in their followers. Hence the fear of hell, lake of fire etc etc are thrown at the followers by the men who claim to have direct link to some deity.

That is why people call themselves God fearing rather than God loving. In fact I wrote a piece about that some years ago from Sikhi view point,” Are we God fearing or God loving”?

Sikhi is opposite to that. It teaches us to embrace death by living life at its full potential.

My thoughts are in Blue.

The following Shabad starts on page 20:

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1.
Siree Raag, First Mehl:
ਮਰਣੈ ਕੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਨਹੀ ਜੀਵਣ ਕੀ ਨਹੀ ਆਸ ॥
Marṇai kī cẖinṯā nahī jīvaṇ kī nahī ās.
I have no anxiety about dying, and no hope of living.

One who is in consonance with Ik Ong Kaar is not worried about death nor about living a very long (eternal) life.

Here is the verse you wanted to be explained:

ਮੁਇਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਤਿਤੁ ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਮਰੁ ਮਾਰਿ ॥
Mu▫i▫ā jiṯ gẖar jā▫ī▫ai ṯiṯ jīvḏi▫ā mar mār.
To reach your True Home after you die, you must conquer death while you are still alive.

Even before dying, the person is fearful about death knowing quite well that it is inevitable.

Sant Singh Khalsa has added TRUE to home on his own, whereas "home" here means, "The last place".

Here are some more examples from Gurbani. They are one liners just because of the subject being discussed

Guru Arjan says in the following on page 296:

ਪੰਨਾ 296, ਸਤਰ 19
ਮਰਣੁ ਮਿਟੈ ਜੀਵਨੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਬਿਨਸਹਿ ਸਗਲ ਕਲੇਸ ॥
Maraṇ mitai jīvan milai binsahi sagal kales.
Conquer death and obtain eternal life; all your troubles will depart.

Once one conquers the fear of death, one actually begins to relish life.

Here Guru Amardas says here about the fear of death on page 555

ਮਰਣੈ ਤੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਡਰੈ ਜੀਵਿਆ ਲੋੜੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ ॥
Marṇai ṯe jagaṯ darai jīvi▫ā loṛai sabẖ ko▫e.
The world is terrified of death; everyone longs to live.

The whole world is terrified of death. Everyone is looking for the elixir to live for ever.


I hope this clears things a bit.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Luckysingh]

ਮੁਇਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਤਿਤੁ ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਮਰੁ ਮਾਰਿ ॥
Mu▫i▫ā jiṯ gẖar jā▫ī▫ai ṯiṯ jīvḏi▫ā mar mār.
To reach your True Home after you die, you must conquer death while you are still alive.

To me this 'dying whilst living' is about being liberated whilst alive or Jivan mukht.
The old Vedanta schools all had mukhti and stages explained which were all about liberation after you die or being liberated in the after life.
However, the term jivan mukht refers the same liberation or salvation whilst alive !!

How does one do this ??
Simple, the problem is 'EGO', once this ego is completely killed then you are liberated, there is no more me,me, and you, it ALL becomes Ek and Him.
So dying whilst alive is about being completely egoless.

So how can this true home be reached after you die as mentioned in the shabad ??
Remember, that death itself is only acknowledged if there is Ego(confusing!)
The Ego is what cause the duality and separation. Therefore, when there is no Ego or separation, then there is no death.
Thus , one shall Already be in the True Home as well. (True- being his home, him, the whole Ek onkaar..the Truth..etc)

 

[Tejwant Singh]

To me this 'dying whilst living' is about being liberated whilst alive or Jivan mukht.
The old Vedanta schools all had mukhti and stages explained which were all about liberation after you die or being liberated in the after life.
However, the term jivan mukht refers the same liberation or salvation whilst alive !!

How does one do this ??
Simple, the problem is 'EGO', once this ego is completely killed then you are liberated, there is no more me,me, and you, it ALL becomes Ek and Him.
So dying whilst alive is about being completely egoless.

So how can this true home be reached after you die as mentioned in the shabad ??
Remember, that death itself is only acknowledged if there is Ego(confusing!)
The Ego is what cause the duality and separation. Therefore, when there is no Ego or separation, then there is no death.
Thus , one shall Already be in the True Home as well. (True- being his home, him, the whole Ek onkaar..the Truth..etc)

Lucky ji,

Guru Fateh.

That is fine and dandy but this is not what the verse says:

ਮੁਇਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਤਿਤੁ ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਮਰੁ ਮਾਰਿ ॥
Mu▫i▫ā jiṯ gẖar jā▫ī▫ai ṯiṯ jīvḏi▫ā mar mār.
To reach your True Home after you die, you must conquer death while you are still alive.

The one in bold literally means " One lives his/her life immersed in the fear of death unless one "kills" this fear". In other words the fear of death makes him/her," A dead man/woman walking". It is tough to relish life in this manner. No where in the verse TRUE HOME is mentioned.


If you understand Gurmukhi, this is how Prof. Sahib Singh explains the verse:

ਜਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ = ਜਿਸ ਘਰ ਵਿਚ। ਮੁਇਆ = ਮਰ ਕੇ, ਆਖ਼ਰ ਨੂੰ। ਮੁਇਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ = ਜਿਸ ਮੌਤ ਦੇ ਵੱਸ ਅੰਤ ਨੂੰ ਪਈਦਾ ਹੈ। ਮਰੁ = ਮੌਤ, ਮੌਤ ਦਾ ਡਰ। ਮਾਰਿ = ਮਾਰ ਲਈਦਾ ਹੈ।
ਮਰਨ ਤੋਂ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਹੀ ਉਸ ਮੌਤ ਦਾ ਡਰ ਮਾਰ ਲਈਦਾ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਮੌਤ ਦੇ ਵੱਸ ਆਖ਼ਰ ਪੈਣਾ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ।

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Luckysingh]

Lucky ji,

Guru Fateh.

That is fine and dandy but this is not what the verse says:

ਮੁਇਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਤਿਤੁ ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਮਰੁ ਮਾਰਿ ॥
Mu▫i▫ā jiṯ gẖar jā▫ī▫ai ṯiṯ jīvḏi▫ā mar mār.
To reach your True Home after you die, you must conquer death while you are still alive.

The one in bold literally means " One lives his/her life immersed in the fear of death unless one "kills" this fear". In other words the fear of death make him/her," A dead man/woman walking". It is tough to relish life in this manner. No where in the verse TRUE HOME is mentioned.


If you understand Gurmukhi, this is how Prof. Sahib Singh explains the verse:

ਜਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ = ਜਿਸ ਘਰ ਵਿਚ। ਮੁਇਆ = ਮਰ ਕੇ, ਆਖ਼ਰ ਨੂੰ। ਮੁਇਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ = ਜਿਸ ਮੌਤ ਦੇ ਵੱਸ ਅੰਤ ਨੂੰ ਪਈਦਾ ਹੈ। ਮਰੁ = ਮੌਤ, ਮੌਤ ਦਾ ਡਰ। ਮਾਰਿ = ਮਾਰ ਲਈਦਾ ਹੈ।
ਮਰਨ ਤੋਂ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਹੀ ਉਸ ਮੌਤ ਦਾ ਡਰ ਮਾਰ ਲਈਦਾ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਮੌਤ ਦੇ ਵੱਸ ਆਖ਼ਰ ਪੈਣਾ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ।

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Thank you for explaining.
I am correct in thinking that it is the fear of death that should be removed ?
As mentioned about EGO above, I also think that this fear itself is only present because of Ego, since the ego is our identifier(the me!) to our time bound body.
I feel that killing ego is a huge component in killing the fear. We know that death is a guaranteed certainty for all of us and we should welcome it with loving arms as the divine Hukam or calling for 'times out'

 

[harmanpreet singh]

AKASHA
For those of us who believe that not matter but a universal field (consciousness itself perhaps) or some deeper nonphysical truth is the basis of reality and matter is the illusion, then to us (myself included) will interpret Gurbani to mean merging back with the creator in a conscious way (ie we transcend physical death). In fact, I believe that when it says we merge back with the ONE we are really just waking up to who we really are... because I believe that there really is only ONE in existence and we are the dream of the creator. - Hence there really is no death - because we were never separate from the ONE to begin with... and THAT I believe is what the truth is...

"To reach your true home when you die, you must conquer death while still alive." This to me (along with the rest of the passage I quoted below) seems to suggest that there IS a 'home' or place we go after death, and that the TRUE home is to unite back with the creator and that to conquer death (or death and rebirth) we must awaken to our true nature (which is spiritual and not merely physical) before we die. It even mentions that we need to realize our 'own self' by going within and recognizing the divine light within us all. I think that means we need to awaken to the fact that we are spiritual beings not just physical and as spirutual in nature we are part of that nonphysical creator.

Or else if you go by what the atheists believe, it's a lot of meaningless poetry that seems to get people's hopes up of surviving physical death, when there really is no hope and our lives are really just by chance. It could have been said easier by just saying 'hey mate you might as well give up because when you're gone thats it and nothing you do matters because everyone who is here to witness what you do will also die and cease to exist and beocme worm food'


Anyway this is just MY PERSONAL belief... I know there a many Sikhs on here who are athiest and are totally satisfied thinking that they will become worm food and that death is the end and everything goes black... but for me that just doesn't make sense.

Akasha ji , . thanks for expressing ,MY VIEW !!!! i feel these fully resonates with Guru Granth Sahib ji .

 

[japjisahib04]

Mu▫i▫ā jiṯ gẖar jā▫ī▫ai ṯiṯ jīvḏi▫ā mar mār.

To reach your True Home after you die, you must conquer death while you are still alive.
However if you're dead while alive you've already died.
Humbly I disagree 100%.

Let us first know what is death and life through the lense of gurbani. In our nitnem we daily recite, 'aakha jeevan visrai mar jaon' (when I delve in gurbani I live and forgetting I die) or 'Nanak jit vaila visrai mera suwami *** vailai mar jao' - When I forget you Oh my beloved I die. SGGS 562.4 - Now do I physically die by ignoring the gurbani and or am not living? This mean through these pankties, guru sahib is trying to convey the definition of janam and maran and is referring to spiritual death or spiritual living and not physical death.

Further definition of janam maran has been beautifully depicted in following sabds,'ਤਤੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ਕਹੈ ਜਨੁ ਸਾਚਾ ॥ ਜਨਮਿ ਮਰੈ ਸੋ ਕਾਚੋ ਕਾਚਾ ॥ ਆਵਾ ਗਵਨੁ ਮਿਟੈ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸੇਵ ॥ ਆਪੁ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਸਰਨਿ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ॥ Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.288.13 or ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਧਿਆਇਨਿ ਸਚੁ ॥ ਜੋ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੇ ਸੁ ਕਚੁ ਨਿਕਚੁ ॥੧॥ What survives and take birth again and again is the separation and Milan THOUGHTS - Meri, Meri. Even Khushwant Singh echoes the sentiment of Sura XXV11, 2 of the Koran : "He who turneth away from the path of Allah is dead.

Gurbani further clarifies the meaning of 'ਆਵਾ ਗਵਨੁ'. ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਥਾਪਿ ਕੀਆ ਸਭੁ ਅਪਨਾ ਏਹੋ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣਾ ॥ - attachment to the body & mind is the cause and is the cycle of physical birth and death (tossing and turning). This notion is not only stressed in this particular sabd but this notion of "Deh-Adhyaas"[I am the body], is repeated over and over in all Gurbani. This is the root cause of ego (Haumei)-the crux of all probems. Based on this guru sahib says, ' ਪਰ ਧਨ ਪਰ ਤਨ ਪਰ ਤੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਪਰ ਅਪਬਾਦੁ ਨ ਛੂਟੈ ॥ ਆਵਾ ਗਵਨੁ ਹੋਤੁ ਹੈ ਫੁਨਿ ਫੁਨਿ ਇਹੁ ਪਰਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਤੂਟੈ ॥੨॥ by keeping an eye on others wealth or conspiring to capture others wealth, every moment I die and am reborn and yell like a dog or bite like a snake. I don't expect whether people judge me as good or bad but when I am not at peace within myself, I don't take it like living but dead. So as per gurbani 'aava gavan' - alleged reincarnation is spiritual death or living and not physical death.

Finally guru sahib declars, 'ਮਤੁ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜਗੁ ਜੀਵਦਾ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਮੁਇਆਸੁ ॥ entangle with dilemma (death) no one is living.

best regards
sahni mohinder

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

I really can't believe how many people here think this is IT.

Ishna Ji, to answer your question, yes that's exactly what I believe... that the BASE of the Universe is NOT MATTER. But ONE Universal field... pure consciousness. I do not think consciousness is merely a product of matter.

We're already merged, we're already in the ocean of light, we just need to realise it.

EXACTLY!!!!!!! Some people describe us as being like a drop of water that is away from the ocean... the thing is... we never left the ocean! We just forgot where we were (thanks to this transient illusion).

Due to some experiences I had... I TRULY wholeheartedly believe that there is existence beyond the physical. Maybe it would be better to describe it as some other higher dimension (that would sound more sciencey.... but either way I think the physical body is what is transient and is just a vehicle for interacting with this physical world. The part of us that makes us US.... is beyond the physical).

For however many athiest SIkhs there are out there, there are many more who believe that this life is not IT. And it just proves my point that whatever side of the coin you sit on, you will interpret it differently...

But as you pointed out, it's hard to look at that one line from an Athiest point of view... In order to reach your true home AFTER you die, you must conquer death while in this life... (paraphrased). It's obviously making a distinction between this lifetime and what happens after it.

Due to personal experiences and reasons, I can not and will never go to the Athiest camp. Its like a child who was just told there is no Santa Claus... he can never go back to believing there is when he is... it can never be the same. I have had such a personal experience spiritually that will never allow me to believe that there really is nothing except the physical and this one life and then ....blackness ceasing to exist and worm food.

Some of you may be happy and totally expecting a blanket of blackness to hit you when you die... and then you are no more... all your memories and wisdom and who you were just cease to exist. I really hope you will be surprised at what happens (in a good way).

Again, these are MY beliefs... I am not trying to change the Athiests. Just show my views... I asked though around my Sangat here locally and ALL replied they believe in God, they believe we are more than the physical and that we transcend death and they believe in the birth / death cycle of reincarnation. They are ALL Punjabi Sikhs born in India and moved here....

 

[Harry Haller]

I asked though around my Sangat here locally and ALL replied they believe in God, they believe we are more than the physical and that we transcend death and they believe in the birth / death cycle of reincarnation. They are ALL Punjabi Sikhs born in India and moved here....<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Do they celebrate pooranmashi too? or shangrandh, do they light candles? do they have a plethora of pictures of strange indian men in Mughal style turbans that they pray too? Do they practice rituals and ceremonies? Is the Ardass full of requests for little mintu's forthcoming driving test?

If the answer is yes, then I would not expect anything less lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Do they celebrate pooranmashi too? or shangrandh, do they light candles? do they have a plethora of pictures of strange indian men in Mughal style turbans that they pray too? Do they practice rituals and ceremonies? Is the Ardass full of requests for little mintu's forthcoming driving test?

If the answer is yes, then I would not expect anything less lol lol lol lol

I think the answer to the above is no to all of them (they are NOT Hindu and as far as I know none celebrate Hindu things)... and many are devout and some of them are Amritdhari. They ALL have a strong belief in Waheguru Ji, in our spirituality and existence beyond the physical.

I am actually surprised Harry Ji, that you would actually put not one but 4 laughing smileys at someone else's beliefs just because they don't agree with yours...

There are far more Sikhs who DO believe in spirituality than that don't... and it has been brought to my attention that this site is managed by a good number from the 'Sikh Missionary' which are all Athiest... so that explains a lot. I didn't know about the mass exodus in 2009-2010 of the devout. I thought this was a Sikh site... not an Athiest site... which means not ridiculing each other's interpretations. I always out in my posts that these are MY beliefs... I never put laughing smileys to anyone else's posts just because they don't believe the same interpretation as I do.

 

[Ishna]

Some people describe us as being like a drop of water that is away from the ocean... the thing is... we never left the ocean! We just forgot where we were (thanks to this transient illusion).

But there is no we. Only IT!!! There is no separation, no individuality. Individuality is false! That's why there can be no afterlife, because it would by default require us to be eternally separate from the Creator, eternally stuck in the illusion of haumai (separation).

IMHO, from what I've learned so far.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

But there is no we. Only IT!!! There is no separation, no individuality. Individuality is false! That's why there can be no afterlife, because it would be default require us to be eternally separate from the Creator, eternally stuck in the illusion of haumai (separation).

EXACTLY THIS is how I am thinking... WE (as in all of us colelctively) ARE the creator..... and since the creator is BEYOND birth and death... we also are beyond birth and death! It's not an afterlife as per some paradise etc... It's awakening back to who we really are. But we don't cease to exist. I liken it to awakening from a dream or amnesia and that moment where we realize hey I REMEMBER!!!

There is a quote in Gurbani I cant find right now that actually says when we realize 'He is me' - This is saying it right there.

 

[Ishna]

EXACTLY THIS is how I am thinking... WE (as in all of us colelctively) ARE the creator..... and since the creator is BEYOND birth and death... we also are beyond birth and death! It's not an afterlife as per some paradise etc... It's awakening back to who we really are. But we don't cease to exist. I liken it to awakening from a dream or amnesia and that moment where we realize hey I REMEMBER!!!

There is a quote in Gurbani I cant find right now that actually says when we realize 'He is me' - This is saying it right there.

LOL this is hilarious how you and I keep agreeing and disagreeing at the same time! I think essentially we aren't too far from each other, the details are symantics.

I don't think there is any "I" to say "hey I remember". But what would I know? :sippingcoffee:

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

LOL this is hilarious how you and I keep agreeing and disagreeing at the same time! I think essentially we aren't too far from each other, the details are symantics.

I don't think there is any "I" to say "hey I remember". But what would I know? :sippingcoffee:

Exactly! LOL Logically speaking... if we are all collectively the ONE Universal Creator God... and God is beyond birth and death, then to me that just doesn't say everything goes black and we cease to exist. (we cease to exist as an individual that's different)

Think of it like a dream at night... you are in fact ALL of the characters... and when you wake in the morning, you realize you were all the characters. Thsoe characters individually are gone (maybe even forgotten), but in reality they did not 'die' because they were really you all the time. They never actually existed as individuals... That's how I think.... And that thinking is Spiritual, NOT Athiest. Athiest thinking is that there is nothing beyond the physical and that when we die we are worm food and cease to exist alltogether...