Atheism Sikhism And Atheism: A Philosophical Discourse
Lee
SPNer
Re: Why Sikhism?
A good anology for why Atheism and Sikhi are the same? Not going to happen my friend, as they clearly are not the same.
A good anology for why Atheism and Sikhi are the same? Not going to happen my friend, as they clearly are not the same.
- Jul 14, 2007
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Re: Why Sikhism?
Lee Ji,
I'm not trying to redefine Atheism but here is one similarity between the two:-
"Atheism is not an organized belief system (or "lack-of-belief system", as some may joke),
but rather a word that can be associated with anyone who does not believe in any god."
Full article: Anointed-One.net
In Chaupai Sahib there is this tuk.
Raam Rahim Puran Kuran
Anekh Kehai Mat, Ek Na maniyo
means, there are so many belief systems and I don't believe in any of them.
Lee Ji,
I'm not trying to redefine Atheism but here is one similarity between the two:-
"Atheism is not an organized belief system (or "lack-of-belief system", as some may joke),
but rather a word that can be associated with anyone who does not believe in any god."
Full article: Anointed-One.net
In Chaupai Sahib there is this tuk.
Raam Rahim Puran Kuran
Anekh Kehai Mat, Ek Na maniyo
means, there are so many belief systems and I don't believe in any of them.
Lee
SPNer
Re: Why Sikhism?
Yes I can see why some would say that they may be similar. However Sikhi does belive in a creator God, an atheist, any atheist, all atheists do not belive in a creator God.
The quote you supplied above, well I understand it comes from Dasam Granth? I can find these word in the bani you have told me it comes from? Would you kindly reproduce the entire Chaupai Sahib, as we all know by now that quoteing one part of bani does us diservice. In attempting to understand bani it is better that we see the whole not a tiny part.
Yes I can see why some would say that they may be similar. However Sikhi does belive in a creator God, an atheist, any atheist, all atheists do not belive in a creator God.
The quote you supplied above, well I understand it comes from Dasam Granth? I can find these word in the bani you have told me it comes from? Would you kindly reproduce the entire Chaupai Sahib, as we all know by now that quoteing one part of bani does us diservice. In attempting to understand bani it is better that we see the whole not a tiny part.
- Jul 14, 2007
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Re: Why Sikhism?
I furnish below the full Swaiya:-
I furnish below the full Swaiya:-
- Pae gae jab ta tumra tb ta khu anth tara nehee aneeyo. Ram rahim Puran kuran, anak kahy ma'th eek na maneyo. Simrat shastr badh sabh bohu padh kahaa ha'm ek na janeyo. Sri aspanh kirpa tumree karh maa na kheyo sab tohay bkhanyo. (30)
- O God ! Since I have held your feet, none other has entered my vision; Ram, Rahim, Puranas, Quran and many others recite, but I don't believe in even one. The Simritis, Shastras and Vedas describe many mysteries, but I don't recognise even one of them; O Sword-wielder God! All this I write, with your blessings, is not what I know but what you have shown me.
- Jul 14, 2007
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Re: Why Sikhism?
Ok you win, Lee and KulwantK. I loose. But there is more.....
Like here > #1
My atheism, like that of Spinoza,
is true piety towards the universe
and denies only gods fashioned
by men in their own image,
to be servants of their human interests.
- George Santayana
and here > What do Atheists believe? Educate me. 16 - 31
and here> http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3102
Ok you win, Lee and KulwantK. I loose. But there is more.....
Like here > #1
My atheism, like that of Spinoza,
is true piety towards the universe
and denies only gods fashioned
by men in their own image,
to be servants of their human interests.
- George Santayana
and here > What do Atheists believe? Educate me. 16 - 31
and here> http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3102
Re: Why Sikhism?
Lee ji
This is not what you asked for, but rather it is a shabad from Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Just one in which Guru Nanak is clearly addressing an all-powerful as distinct from himself.
<> siq nwmu krqw purKu inrBau inrvYru Akwl mUriq AjUnI sYBM gur pRswid ]
ik oa(n)kaar sath naam karathaa purakh nirabho niravair akaal moorath ajoonee saibha(n) gur prasaadh ||
One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru’s Grace ~
] jpu ]
|| jap ||
Chant And Meditate:
Awid scu jugwid scu ]
aadh sach jugaadh sach ||
True In The Primal Beginning. True Throughout The Ages.
hY BI scu nwnk hosI BI scu ]1]
hai bhee sach naanak hosee bhee sach ||1||
True Here And Now. O Nanak, Forever And Ever True. ||1||
socY soic n hoveI jy socI lK vwr ]
sochai soch n hovee jae sochee lakh vaar ||
By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times.
cupY cup n hoveI jy lwie rhw ilv qwr ]
chupai chup n hovee jae laae rehaa liv thaar ||
By remaining silent, inner silence is not obtained, even by remaining lovingly absorbed deep within.
BuiKAw BuK n auqrI jy bMnw purIAw Bwr ]
bhukhiaa bhukh n outharee jae ba(n)naa pureeaa bhaar ||
The hunger of the hungry is not appeased, even by piling up loads of worldly goods.
shs isAwxpw lK hoih q iek n clY nwil ]
sehas siaanapaa lakh hohi th eik n chalai naal ||
Hundreds of thousands of clever tricks, but not even one of them will go along with you in the end.
ikv sicAwrw hoeIAY ikv kUVY qutY pwil ]
kiv sachiaaraa hoeeai kiv koorrai thuttai paal ||
So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be torn away?
hukim rjweI clxw nwnk iliKAw nwil ]1]
hukam rajaaee chalanaa naanak likhiaa naal ||1||
O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||
We have had many discussions on SPN about Sikhism being akin to atheism, to pantheism, to panentheism. Yet in this shabad and many others Guru Nanak is clearly describing a powerful creator, and doing so in a way that suggests submission to a greater power that has personal significance. O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||
In defense of atheists, they do enjoy mincing about on the subject of just who exactly they are and what exactly they do not believe in. It is a kind of mental exercise designed to clarify the meanings of concepts. Really from my reading on the subject, it is self-proclaimed atheists who make the argument both interesting and maddening as they p{censored} out their self-imposed rules of construction for rejecting the existence of God, gods, gods now, gods not yet discovered and on and on. The problem becomes our problem for discussion when we think we must buy into their grammar for explaining their disbelief.
Well my 2 cents. I predict that at some point someone will say that if God is everything and God is nothing, the sarguna/nirguna analogy, then God does not exist. This is another tortured analogy. Sat Nam.
Lee ji
This is not what you asked for, but rather it is a shabad from Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Just one in which Guru Nanak is clearly addressing an all-powerful as distinct from himself.
<> siq nwmu krqw purKu inrBau inrvYru Akwl mUriq AjUnI sYBM gur pRswid ]
ik oa(n)kaar sath naam karathaa purakh nirabho niravair akaal moorath ajoonee saibha(n) gur prasaadh ||
One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru’s Grace ~
] jpu ]
|| jap ||
Chant And Meditate:
Awid scu jugwid scu ]
aadh sach jugaadh sach ||
True In The Primal Beginning. True Throughout The Ages.
hY BI scu nwnk hosI BI scu ]1]
hai bhee sach naanak hosee bhee sach ||1||
True Here And Now. O Nanak, Forever And Ever True. ||1||
socY soic n hoveI jy socI lK vwr ]
sochai soch n hovee jae sochee lakh vaar ||
By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times.
cupY cup n hoveI jy lwie rhw ilv qwr ]
chupai chup n hovee jae laae rehaa liv thaar ||
By remaining silent, inner silence is not obtained, even by remaining lovingly absorbed deep within.
BuiKAw BuK n auqrI jy bMnw purIAw Bwr ]
bhukhiaa bhukh n outharee jae ba(n)naa pureeaa bhaar ||
The hunger of the hungry is not appeased, even by piling up loads of worldly goods.
shs isAwxpw lK hoih q iek n clY nwil ]
sehas siaanapaa lakh hohi th eik n chalai naal ||
Hundreds of thousands of clever tricks, but not even one of them will go along with you in the end.
ikv sicAwrw hoeIAY ikv kUVY qutY pwil ]
kiv sachiaaraa hoeeai kiv koorrai thuttai paal ||
So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be torn away?
hukim rjweI clxw nwnk iliKAw nwil ]1]
hukam rajaaee chalanaa naanak likhiaa naal ||1||
O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||
We have had many discussions on SPN about Sikhism being akin to atheism, to pantheism, to panentheism. Yet in this shabad and many others Guru Nanak is clearly describing a powerful creator, and doing so in a way that suggests submission to a greater power that has personal significance. O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||
In defense of atheists, they do enjoy mincing about on the subject of just who exactly they are and what exactly they do not believe in. It is a kind of mental exercise designed to clarify the meanings of concepts. Really from my reading on the subject, it is self-proclaimed atheists who make the argument both interesting and maddening as they p{censored} out their self-imposed rules of construction for rejecting the existence of God, gods, gods now, gods not yet discovered and on and on. The problem becomes our problem for discussion when we think we must buy into their grammar for explaining their disbelief.
Well my 2 cents. I predict that at some point someone will say that if God is everything and God is nothing, the sarguna/nirguna analogy, then God does not exist. This is another tortured analogy. Sat Nam.
- Jul 14, 2007
- 4,576
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Re: Why Sikhism?
An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An Atheist knows that heaven is something for which we should work now - here on earth - for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist thinks that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue, and enjoy it. An Atheist thinks that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment. Therefore, he seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An Atheist knows that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist knows that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man. He wants an ethical way of life. He knows that we cannot rely on a god nor channel action into prayer nor hope for an end to troubles in the hereafter. He knows that we are our brother's keeper and keepers of our lives; that we are responsible persons, that the job is here and the time is now." - Madalyn O'Hair
Happy Atheist Forum • Welcome To Happy Atheist Forum
Sikhism teaches many of the above.
An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An Atheist knows that heaven is something for which we should work now - here on earth - for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist thinks that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue, and enjoy it. An Atheist thinks that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment. Therefore, he seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An Atheist knows that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist knows that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man. He wants an ethical way of life. He knows that we cannot rely on a god nor channel action into prayer nor hope for an end to troubles in the hereafter. He knows that we are our brother's keeper and keepers of our lives; that we are responsible persons, that the job is here and the time is now." - Madalyn O'Hair
Happy Atheist Forum • Welcome To Happy Atheist Forum
Sikhism teaches many of the above.
Re: Why Sikhism?
ਜਿਨੀ ਐਸਾ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਚੇਤਿਓ ਸੇ ਕਾਹੇ ਜਗਿ ਆਏ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਜੇ ॥ ਇਹੁ ਮਾਣਸ ਜਨਮੁ ਦੁਲੰਭੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਸਭੁ ਜਾਏ ॥ ਹੁਣਿ ਵਤੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਬੀਜਿਓ ਅਗੈ ਭੁਖਾ ਕਿਆ ਖਾਏ ॥ ਮਨਮੁਖਾ ਨੋ ਫਿਰਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਏ ॥੨॥: Jinee aisaa har naam n chetio se kaahe jagi aaye raam raaje. Ihu maanas janam dulanbh hai naam binaa birathaa sabh jaaye. Hun vatai har naam na beejio agai bhukhaa kiaa khaaye. Manmukhaa no fir janam hai Nanak har bhaaye ||2||: Those who have not kept the Lord's Name in their consciousness - why did they bother to come into the world, O Lord King? It is so difficult to obtain this human birth, and without the Naam, it is all futile and useless. Now, in this most fortunate season, man does not plant the seed of the Lord's Name; what will the hungry soul (hungry of the Naam) eat, in the world hereafter? The Manmukhs (those guided by their ego-minds) are born again and again. O Nanak, such is the Lord's Will ||2|| (sggs 450).
Thanks to forum member Soul_Jyot ji for sending me this as part of a larger document. :welcome:
ਜਿਨੀ ਐਸਾ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਚੇਤਿਓ ਸੇ ਕਾਹੇ ਜਗਿ ਆਏ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਜੇ ॥ ਇਹੁ ਮਾਣਸ ਜਨਮੁ ਦੁਲੰਭੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਸਭੁ ਜਾਏ ॥ ਹੁਣਿ ਵਤੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਬੀਜਿਓ ਅਗੈ ਭੁਖਾ ਕਿਆ ਖਾਏ ॥ ਮਨਮੁਖਾ ਨੋ ਫਿਰਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਏ ॥੨॥: Jinee aisaa har naam n chetio se kaahe jagi aaye raam raaje. Ihu maanas janam dulanbh hai naam binaa birathaa sabh jaaye. Hun vatai har naam na beejio agai bhukhaa kiaa khaaye. Manmukhaa no fir janam hai Nanak har bhaaye ||2||: Those who have not kept the Lord's Name in their consciousness - why did they bother to come into the world, O Lord King? It is so difficult to obtain this human birth, and without the Naam, it is all futile and useless. Now, in this most fortunate season, man does not plant the seed of the Lord's Name; what will the hungry soul (hungry of the Naam) eat, in the world hereafter? The Manmukhs (those guided by their ego-minds) are born again and again. O Nanak, such is the Lord's Will ||2|| (sggs 450).
Thanks to forum member Soul_Jyot ji for sending me this as part of a larger document. :welcome:
namjap Ji,
While I am new to my understanding of Sikhi I am not new to my understanding, or at least attempt there of, the Creator. I fail to see the way that Sikhism can be called atheistic - except from a western viewpoint. The Tao is very similar to many of the teachings of the Gurus and suffers from the same associated to atheism.
Please keep in mind this is my understanding only.
The Creator (by whatever name you wish to address) is reflected in the Creation. If you look at some of the great works of painters or composers you can see or hear something about those who made it. The balance or use of colors, sounds, space and quite are all a part of the creation process that reflects the state of the creator of that piece. Here we have all of Creation and only a small perspective and short time in each life to try to understand the reason for the creation or the will of its creator. This scares some people. They fixate and sometimes get violent based on an understanding of fear. (This is due to a problem of not being able to see beyond the mirror they are holding before their own eyes.) Yet those who can put down the mirror (stop thinking of self as the point of all interaction) then they can begin to see the Creation and glimpse the Creator.
So why then did I say that it is a western perspective that Sikhism could look like atheism or maybe just a philosophy? Because the western mind wants to be able to point at and define God. It is the scientific nature we are brought up with. However by defining something you limit it. By saying what it is, you say what it isn't. The Creator of All is far beyond our definitions, yet not beyond the beginning of our understanding. The Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is written by men who are trying to help people put down the mirror of self-centeredness and see with eyes unclouded. Other beliefs have done the same based on their understanding and culture at the time they were written. If you look at many of the founders of those believes you can see a common thread. First and foremost of which is that the founders (almost always) received their inspiration in Nature. Because this is where the Creator wrote the first book of understanding and from it others have been translated.
While I am new to my understanding of Sikhi I am not new to my understanding, or at least attempt there of, the Creator. I fail to see the way that Sikhism can be called atheistic - except from a western viewpoint. The Tao is very similar to many of the teachings of the Gurus and suffers from the same associated to atheism.
Please keep in mind this is my understanding only.
The Creator (by whatever name you wish to address) is reflected in the Creation. If you look at some of the great works of painters or composers you can see or hear something about those who made it. The balance or use of colors, sounds, space and quite are all a part of the creation process that reflects the state of the creator of that piece. Here we have all of Creation and only a small perspective and short time in each life to try to understand the reason for the creation or the will of its creator. This scares some people. They fixate and sometimes get violent based on an understanding of fear. (This is due to a problem of not being able to see beyond the mirror they are holding before their own eyes.) Yet those who can put down the mirror (stop thinking of self as the point of all interaction) then they can begin to see the Creation and glimpse the Creator.
So why then did I say that it is a western perspective that Sikhism could look like atheism or maybe just a philosophy? Because the western mind wants to be able to point at and define God. It is the scientific nature we are brought up with. However by defining something you limit it. By saying what it is, you say what it isn't. The Creator of All is far beyond our definitions, yet not beyond the beginning of our understanding. The Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is written by men who are trying to help people put down the mirror of self-centeredness and see with eyes unclouded. Other beliefs have done the same based on their understanding and culture at the time they were written. If you look at many of the founders of those believes you can see a common thread. First and foremost of which is that the founders (almost always) received their inspiration in Nature. Because this is where the Creator wrote the first book of understanding and from it others have been translated.
Lee
SPNer
Re: Why Sikhism?
Heh Narayanjot ji,
Many thanks for reproduceing mool mantar here for us all. I am of course Sikh myself but it is always nice to see it, and indeed conatins the very kernal of Sikhi.
You make an interesting point about atheism, and I must say that I fine the very existance of this tread quite bizzare, as in my life i have witnessed many, many time atheists argueing very strongly to deny any simularites to any faith.
The way I have found to do away with problems of grammar and the attempt to change the very definition of words in these kinds of debate i to have a very clear idea of what a word means, and to say when you feel somebody is trying to take liberties with that word.
For example the word Atheist means somebody, who holds no belife in realtion to God, or Gods or conciveably somebody who activly does not belive in God or Gods.
Any attempt to change the meaning of this word should be addressed right from the start, any argument that deviates away from this definition should be pulled up as soon as it has began, what somebody actulay means when they use a specific word needs to be clear, and if that word is being misused then the culprit needs to be told just that.
Where would we be if we could use words and langauge in any way we see fit witout rules. Heh clearly we would not be able to communicate very well.
Heh Narayanjot ji,
Many thanks for reproduceing mool mantar here for us all. I am of course Sikh myself but it is always nice to see it, and indeed conatins the very kernal of Sikhi.
You make an interesting point about atheism, and I must say that I fine the very existance of this tread quite bizzare, as in my life i have witnessed many, many time atheists argueing very strongly to deny any simularites to any faith.
The way I have found to do away with problems of grammar and the attempt to change the very definition of words in these kinds of debate i to have a very clear idea of what a word means, and to say when you feel somebody is trying to take liberties with that word.
For example the word Atheist means somebody, who holds no belife in realtion to God, or Gods or conciveably somebody who activly does not belive in God or Gods.
Any attempt to change the meaning of this word should be addressed right from the start, any argument that deviates away from this definition should be pulled up as soon as it has began, what somebody actulay means when they use a specific word needs to be clear, and if that word is being misused then the culprit needs to be told just that.
Where would we be if we could use words and langauge in any way we see fit witout rules. Heh clearly we would not be able to communicate very well.
Ik Ong Kaar can be interpreted in different ways.
1. One Creator of all ( Not One Universal Creator as Guru Nanak says in Jap ji : Patalan pataal lakh, agasan agaas. Which means all the other Milky ways and others that are still forming)
2. One Source of all= Ajuni Saibung= Creative Energy.
Tejwant Singh
1. One Creator of all ( Not One Universal Creator as Guru Nanak says in Jap ji : Patalan pataal lakh, agasan agaas. Which means all the other Milky ways and others that are still forming)
2. One Source of all= Ajuni Saibung= Creative Energy.
Tejwant Singh
- Jul 14, 2007
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Lee Ji,
It was kind enough for you to point out the importance of the full shabad. So thanks again for the enlightenment. And it is kind for the Admin to transfer these posts from the other thread - why Sikhism.
In my opinion there is no exact definition for an atheist. Because every atheist had a different reason to quit his previous religion.
It was kind enough for you to point out the importance of the full shabad. So thanks again for the enlightenment. And it is kind for the Admin to transfer these posts from the other thread - why Sikhism.
In my opinion there is no exact definition for an atheist. Because every atheist had a different reason to quit his previous religion.
Lee
SPNer
Namjap ji,
My pleasure sir.
That is the problem my friend, one's 'opinion' cannot ever change the definition of a word. Otherwise in my opinion milk is actualy only white water.
As to Atheists not all of then had any sort of faith in the begining. My wife was never religious, nor was my oldest son yet both are Atheist, so they never had a previous religion to quit.
It bears repeating, an athiest is one who activly does not belive in God, or Gods, or has no belife in regard to God or Gods.
The fact that each atheist has differant reasons for being so has absolutly no bearing at all on the definition of the word.
Lets take another word. 'Sikh', does what it mean, change with the reasons people become 'Sikhs'? By your logic it must do, but in reality of course it does not.
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Lee Ji,
So now we are talking about two different categories of atheist - those who discarded their previous religion and those who were atheist in the beginning with no religion to discard. Good going.
Here's a third kind: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/23187-sikh-atheism.html
So now we are talking about two different categories of atheist - those who discarded their previous religion and those who were atheist in the beginning with no religion to discard. Good going.
Here's a third kind: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/23187-sikh-atheism.html
Lee
SPNer
If you are refering to skd1709 then I fail to see what you mean. Incedently again although people may be atheist for many and veried reasons, what an athiest is though remains the same.
So no, not two catagories, two differant reasons for being atheist.
Skd1709 is a 'cultural Sikh', who no longer belives in God. So I would now call him, not Sikh, but atheist.
A Sikh is a Sikh not because her parents were born to Sikhi, nor because they are of Indian/Punjabi decent. Sikhs are not like Jews. Only if you activly seek God by using the Sikh path can you be said to be Sikh.
If you do not belive in God although your parents are Sikh, you are atheist not Sikh. Like I have said I am Sikh, my oldest son is atheist, not because who we are or where we come from, but based soley on what we belive.
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