Sikhism And Feelings Of Bliss

[BhagatSingh]

Prakash ji,
What an odd thing. The Guru who we claim know everything, himself says that he is foolish. In that shabad of Bhagat Namdev, the Bhagat says that he is foolish. And there are many shabads like this.

Is it through their understanding, their knowledge of God, of everything, that they came to know they are foolish?
They can't be saying it for effect or to create influence. We know Gurus are Truthful. So what they are expressing is some kind of truth.

Again...We follow, we are Sikhs of those who go on saying that they are foolish. Something to think about.

Is it that we see something in them? So it's is us who then sees wisdom in the Guru, while the Guru goes on calling himself foolish.

We are clearly not enlightened. It is Guru that is enlightened! Guru is literally the know-it-all, he knows everything. This Guru says the wise (Guru) are foolish.

So where is the wisdom coming from? This would be a revolutionary thing, if we could figure out the source of this wisdom!

And what about those whom we declare foolish?

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
The first thing to understand is that who is GuRu in Gurbani.?All have refered to this GuRu as Omnipotent,Omnipresent and Omniscient.This GuRu is eternal.
The Bani is of Complete GuR as should be clear from a quote
"Wahu Wahu PooRe GuR Kee Pooree Banee.
PooRe GuR Te Upajee Sach Samaani" Rahao
Here it is important to understand that Nanak and all others refer themselelves as Daas of Hari.:GuR JoT
Since GuR Jot is complete in all respect so in reference of personal capacity they consider themselves as Moorakh before GuR JoT.
Since Gurbani is being read and listened by persons of different levels of wisdom as provided by the Creator so anybody automatically would refer himself as Moorakh while reading this.So this word eliminanes the effect of any Ego while readind .talking and understaning about GuR Jot.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Ambarsaria]

Great discourse Harry ji, Prakash.s.Bagga ji and Bhagat Singh ji. I make some observations with due respect for all.

We need to recognize what is the relationship between us and Guruji.

We are first and foremost and for ever, Sikhs.

• Sikhs being; students, learners

Our Guru ji are forever our teacher.

• Guru ji are our teacher
• Sikhs are blessed that they have a teacher for life and for free
• A person is not born who could even pay for such services nor would one be ever born

As we learn more and more, we start to see what our Guru ji saw centuries ago. We are enthralled, we are happy, we want to call Guru ji with different and reverence based names and qualities. However if we want to be true to our teachers, our Guru ji, we need to continue and for ever treat them as teachers. As soon as you ignore their continuous class and teaching that is there day and night, you will stop learning, you have turned your back on a teacher that is there for you for ever.

Be respectful, give accolades, be graceful but your Guru ji would be utmost unhappy if instead of continuous learning to seek answers you start to believe you found all the answers. Your Guru ji would be very happy if you reach a stage of a very bright student who can write questions for an exam that one cannot immediately answer oneself. You struggle, you work hard, you sweat it out, you get stuck. Time to check with your Guru ji and get unstuck. But don’t get in the habit of looking for easy answers all the time to questions of your living. Such should naturally flow from your own mind, your own understanding and from within you. Guru ji will put the blessing on your head as a sign of well done and the love that great teacher show towards their students.

However, there is another student who will say I am just going to keep repeating and doing exactly what Guru ji has stated, uttered in their lessons. Surely I cannot go wrong, I will pass and Guru ji will be very pleased that I am a perfect follower. Only an ordinary teacher is happy with such state of affairs, our Guru ji are not in this category. They don’t need your support to show them that you follow and do exactly per letter of the lesson. You have misunderstood. Guru ji wants you to use your brain that the creator has blessed you with. That is what makes teachers happy and they feel fulfilled.

Teachers know, so do our Guru ji, that no two people are alike in their understanding in any given instance in time for all there is to know. So students even within the same class learn in different ways, understand in different ways while still understanding the lesson.

Sikhism does not create robots, Sikhism creates thinking people who are so well assisted by our Guru ji that you got to be pretty awful to not get ahead and do so at a great pace in your understanding and living that follows such.

2....I differ to believe that every one must find his own way and his own interpretation in order to find his own bliss. Dear Harry ji this is not applicable in the case of Gurbani understanding.

Prakash.s.bagga ji I find the highlighted parts of your words not consistent with my understanding as I have written earlier in this post. Bliss is not an end game, it is a by product of understanding within and without and living with such. Since you will continue to learn and there will be always need to learn, there cannot be so called bliss of ignorance that you don’t know about yet.
​

Here we are required to understand what GuRu is telling us to do or follow. Bliss is the result of grace of GuRu only. So our affection ,Love and devotion to the Bani of GuR will create the favourable conditions for the grace of GuRu to make anyone blissful.Remember that first and foremost, Guru ji is teaching you. Guru ji is not asking you to do parroting, Guru ji is not asking you to think alike or follow some words. Guru ji insists that you get to the essence of the teachings so you don’t have to keep looking at your class notes or keep raising your hand in the class. Guru ji is interested in enabling you to think, to understand and much less to follow.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...hism-and-feelings-of-bliss-10.html#post150356
​

You are "A WAVE".
GuRu is an Ocean of SIMILAR WAVES.
So there is only ONE WAY .
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...hism-and-feelings-of-bliss-10.html#post150376

Very sorry to see this analogy brought up again. Guru ji is a teacher and we are all part of creation. If you want to call it a wave, another ethereal or liquid matter it really does not say much.​

Bhagat Singh ji: Again...We follow, we are Sikhs of those who go on saying that they are foolish. Something to think about.

Bhagat Singh ji you raise a marvelous point. Why would any one say such a thing at the stature of our Guru ji? Is it not just to emphasize the infinite that cannot be learnt and is in the first line or mool mantar. Does anyone believe that Guru ji will stop thinking or otherwise not engage their mind. Again and again Guru ji in Gurbani while guiding us students tell us, don’t assume you are going to know all, don’t try to understand all, it is infinite, continue to develop your understanding so that you understand it well, even I will call myself foolish if you doubt this.

Is it that we see something in them? So it's is us who then sees wisdom in the Guru, while the Guru goes on calling himself foolish.

So where is the wisdom coming from? This would be a revolutionary thing, if we could figure out the source of this wisdom!

Bhagat Singh ji I am like minded. I would love to know this too. Let us try to understand some of the difficulties to know all,
​

- Can we see how a Queen bee looks at worker bees as and what do the warrior bees think of the worker bees and the queen bee?
- Why Jasmine flowers in different pots seem to blossom around the same time in different pots? I know about melatonin, light and all that, why other flowers bloom differently?
- Having already defined the end of the world we live on, when the sun cools down, what is creation’s plan for everyone on our planet.
- How can a human (us) see a dog, like another dog sees the fellow dog.
- This series is infinite, the wisdom at best is partial, focused around and limited to our senses except we as species somehow believe that we have the capacity to understand and describe all.
- Wisdom is like cloud computing where all works into and through a distributed network of what creation has created.
- Just some musings!
​

And what about those whom we declare foolish?

Declaring foolish is not part of learning but application of what you have learnt so far. One who is considered foolish today may be wiser than thou in the future.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/150416-post101.html​

I hope above is not too long.

Sat Sri Akal.
​

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

AMBARSARIA Ji,
I am certainly impressed the way you elaborate the message.
Personally I seek one clarification from your goodself.The clarification is related to the reference waves in Gurbani.
Quite often I come across the word ..TARANG. in Gurbani.What meaning I should take for this word TARANG ? I consider the meaning of The word TARANG as Waves.If you can guide me some other meaning for this word I may consider to make use of that instead Waves so that I feel rectified for the meaning of this word.
Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[Harry Haller]

Ambersariaji,

Many thanks for your kind words of wisdom and information. Yourself and Prakashji seem to be almost opposites in some interpretation of the SGGS ji. You both put forward very good points, but for me, and with respect to Prakashji, I do not believe that the SGGS ji, was meant to be so hard to understand and with so much mystery to it. I don't think this is like some Indiana Jones film where the truth lies in the secret decoder that we have to steal from the nazis. I have seen in both Prakashji's posts and Balwinderji's posts evidence of a complete bliss that can be present for hours, once the decoding has been carried out, although I think this bliss is very real, I am thinking that perhaps this is not the bliss the Gurus meant us to find. Could it be like using cough mixture to get high? I think this bliss is addictive, and I think it turns people into slaves to the bliss, rather than balancing bliss with real life,

In an effort at reconciling all the various thoughts on the matter, I accepted the notion that obviously given all the different interpretations, each could find his own bliss in his own way through the SGGS ji.

I now realise that this may not be correct, Prakashji talks not of consonance or any real material to assist you in the real world, but of the bonding with the 'big light', I accept the notion that we are all little lights waiting to bond with the big light, but you state that bliss is in the journey , whereas prakashji seems to intimate it is waiting at the end.

I suppose that is my position on the subject, dear prakashji, if I have got your thoughts wrong, please feel free to correct me

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

HARRY HALLER Ji,
In the present scenario of interpretations as envisaged your stand is correct.
Thank you very much for your nice and pleasant remarks,
Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[Harry Haller]

Prakashji,

If my wife ever leaves me, my business folds, my parents die, and my dogs run away, you will find me sitting outside your front door with my hands folded.

I do not think the path you have chosen is compatible completely with 'life'. It is mountain top sikhism, but that is not to say there is anything wrong in that, if anything I feel you have to be stronger than the rest of us, to avoid attachment to bliss.

I think you have great wisdom, and I respect anyone who goes to great lengths to find the truth, Sat Sri Akal

 

[BhagatSingh]

Hahaha

Harry ji, when that happens I hope you realize you took the same path as Prakash ji and just called it something else. Ended up in some location which you thought was different than Prakash ji's location.

It is like Prakash ji puts it, it's all waves. Lots of movements. Our whole life is movement. The waves continuously do the same thing. They are LOOPING. It is a one continuous loop (ocean, universe) with infinite number of smaller loops (galaxies, stars, solar-systems, planets, people, moelecules, atoms, sub-atomic particles). One astronomical dance composed of subatomic dances!

:interestedmunda:

This smiley represents our life, and does it very well. What can we learn from it?


Notice I just called waves, movement and then loop and then dance. What was the actual thing?

The Gurus after gaining enlightenment say they are foolish. What was the actual thing?

What is the reality?

Hahaha peacesign

Reality is.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
We have only option of making Ardaasi before SATiGuRu ji as

1...Visar Nahi Daatar Apnaa Naamu Dehu
Gun Gaawan Din Raat Nanak Chao Ehu

2...Ehu Ardaasi Hamaaree Swaami Visar Naahee Sukh Daate..pp747

3....Teeno Taap Niwaranhaaraa Dukh hantaa Sukh Raasi
Taako Bighan Naa Kou Laage Jaaki Prabh Aage Ardaasi

So we should always ask for the help of Sati GuRu in every circumstances of life.
There is no other way.

Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[BhagatSingh]

(I continue to contemplate this thread. Notice the wave-, movement-, loop-, dance-like nature of a contemplation.)

So Reality is.

And notice you cannot think about that, even though the gut reaction is to start analyzing it.
"what is reality?"
"is it this?"
"is it that?"

You'll find that every thought takes you out of it. Each thought fails miserably to express the reality.

I hope you see this failure of thought.

You sit quietly in a room and try to do nothing. You'll immediately find yourself thinking! Notice how each thought fails, otherwise why would there be a need for more thoughts?
*cough*each post fails miserably, otherwise why would there be a need for more posts?*cough*

You'll notice you cannot do anything to recover from that failure. You keep thinking about that failure to express reality, and with every thought there is more failure.

With thoughts you keep trying to amend the failure of previous thoughts. In the process, more failures have arisen that must be amended. More loop-holes are discovered that must be patched.

The contemplation continues. "Gotta think harder."

Every instinct in your wants to express reality. You notice thought fails. Failure to amend the failure.

You'll even want to tell others of this reality.

If it is reality why don't they agree with you?

This is the human dilemma, duality, the hard-to-understand mystery.

Everyone knows what is true. But can never know whether the other knows it.

They express it to another and hear from them "No, I know the Truth". They then parrot the same thing back in different language "No, I know the Truth".

But in their hearts they both know the truth. Why is it that one's truth appears different to the other?

Even to the point when one listens to the other person's truth, one thinks the other is lying! "Selfish bas****."

So who is the intelligent and who is the foolish? I give up. I cannot tell. I surrender to it!

The contemplation is over. One finds bliss.


Thank you for meditating with me.

Reality is.

... and the contemplation starts again... gingerteakaur
------
Prakash ji,
Forgive me. I was still typing as you posted.

I agree that ardaas, a 'mental bow' to the Satiguru is perhaps the only way.

 

[Ambarsaria]

AMBARSARIA Ji,
I am certainly impressed the way you elaborate the message.
Personally I seek one clarification from your goodself.The clarification is related to the reference waves in Gurbani.
Quite often I come across the word ..TARANG. in Gurbani.What meaning I should take for this word TARANG ? I consider the meaning of The word TARANG as Waves.If you can guide me some other meaning for this word I may consider to make use of that instead Waves so that I feel rectified for the meaning of this word.
Prakash.s.Bagga

Prakash.s.Bagga ji let us review a shabad(s) if you can provide a reference. I will happily post it from srigranth.org including my notes.

By the way, we are all students and Guru ji expects us to work collaboratively to further our learning. This cyber sangat is one way of doing this which may not be physically possible (India, UK, Canada, Australia Sikh students talking together). mundahug

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[seeker3k]

Bhagat Singh Ji,

This is the first time heard 52 words. Can you please explain to me what 52 words mean? Is it words of lipi or slok?

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

SEEKER 3K
52 words are the words of Lipi.
So the heading of the Bani is Gauree Bawan Akharee M 5 pp250-262 SGGS
There are 55 Saloks in the Bani.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[seeker3k]

Thanks Prakash Ji,

But the sloke Bhagat Singh ji wrote is of Kabir not Nanak's.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Thanks Prakash Ji,

But the sloke Bhagat Singh ji wrote is of Kabir not Nanak's.

Just to keep correct,

ਰਾਗ ਗਉੜੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਗੁਰੂ ਅਰਜਨਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ 'ਬਾਵਨ-ਅਖੱਰੀ' (੫੨ ਅੱਖਰਾਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਬਾਣੀ)।
ਗਉੜੀ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਖਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=250&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=1

Kabir ji also below,

ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ ਪੂਰਬੀ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਖਰੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ ਕੀ
रागु गउड़ी पूरबी बावन अखरी कबीर जीउ की
Rāg ga▫oṛī pūrbī bāvan akẖrī Kabīr jī▫o kī
Raag Gauree Poorbee, Baawan Akhree Of Kabeer Jee:
ਬਾਵਨ = ਬਵੰਜਾ। ਅਖਰੀ = ਅੱਖਰਾਂ ਵਾਲੀ। ਬਾਵਨ ਅਖਰੀ = ਬਵੰਜਾ ਅੱਖਰਾਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਬਾਣੀ।

ਰਾਗ ਗਉੜੀ-ਪੂਰਬੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਭਗਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ 'ਬਾਵਨ ਅਖਰੀ'।
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=340&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=1

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

SEEKER 3K Ji,
The message related to Bawan Akahar by Bhagat singh ji is from

Rag Gauree Poorabee Bawan Akharee Kabir Jeo pp340SGGS

This Bani is without Saloks.This Bani is also related to the words of Lipi.

Prakash.S.Bagga
.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Seeker ji,
Bawan akhree is meditation on letters. Through that meditation wisdom is gained that was then translated into words (rather unsuccessfully as Bhagat Kabir points out right in the beginning). You can come to know that wisdom though meditation on any letters, words, etc. And since the words cannot capture the 'Eternal Letter' (what Kabir ji calls it), meditation on them is crucial.

I posted the last concluding bit (so to speak) of the writing. At this time, after contemplating on letters, Bhagat Kabir comes to the conclusion that letters are not so important, what is important is the Eternal Letter, the Truth behind them. That Truth which is gained through meditation (e.g. on letters).

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
From Gurbani we get a very very clear message from our GuRu ji as

"Prabh Kaa Simran Sabh Te Oochaa.".....Sukhmani Sahib ji

This is what we are required to bring in our practice.

How this should be done,we can look at the message from a Sabad at pp972
Raagu Ramkalee Naamdev Jeo

"Man Raam Naamaa Bedhiale,Jaisae Kank Kalaa Chitu Mandiyale..Rahao

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Harry Haller]

Hahaha

Harry ji, when that happens I hope you realize you took the same path as Prakash ji and just called it something else. Ended up in some location which you thought was different than Prakash ji's location.

It is like Prakash ji puts it, it's all waves. Lots of movements. Our whole life is movement. The waves continuously do the same thing. They are LOOPING. It is a one continuous loop (ocean, universe) with infinite number of smaller loops (galaxies, stars, solar-systems, planets, people, moelecules, atoms, sub-atomic particles). One astronomical dance composed of subatomic dances!

:interestedmunda:

This smiley represents our life, and does it very well. What can we learn from it?


Notice I just called waves, movement and then loop and then dance. What was the actual thing?

The Gurus after gaining enlightenment say they are foolish. What was the actual thing?

What is the reality?

Hahaha peacesign

Reality is.

I have started to embrace humility to the point that my wife has now several times raised her eyebrow at me and asked me if I am being sarcastic.

Its hard not to have a personal perspective on what we as individuals need and require from sikhism, the question of bliss being attainable is clearly a possibility given the wisdom and knowledge contained in some of the posts I have read. You know in medicine, there are many types of doctors, similarly it seems in sikhi there are those that favour seva, some favour simran, some are nihangs, some in gaining as much wisdom out of the words as possible, in that respect we are all different, possibly because of our own individual needs and circumstances.

My own conclusion, at this present time, and for me, is that true bliss is achieved by accepting the hukam and finding pleasure in using our brains as directed by the creator, whether it be simran, seva, pain, suffering, happyness, too see it all as divine will, and not only accept it, but accept it as good.

To that end, bliss within sikhism may be the ability to find pleasure in everything that is the will of the creator, the bliss of acceptance?

 

[BhagatSingh]

You are right. At the end of the day, whatever it is, is being expressed into a vessel. And it is going to get shaped by the potter in a particular way.

There is a kind of bliss in everything it seems.

Contemplate this shabad provided by Prakash Singh ji.
Hmm.. it seems srigranth.org is stopped working now, maybe some other time then.