Sikhism And Homosexuality

[ISDhillon]

she could but the question is why the girl dumped her lesbian partner for a male husband.
i don't think child is the only reason for this.she could have adopted the child or she could
use artificial techniques for getting pregnant.you revolt against the society and your parents you threaten to commit suicide and then you leave your partner just after 2 years
what is this.as far as live and let live is concerned this is applicable to mature persons who very well know the consequences of their actions.majority of 19 and 20 years are not capable of doing this they sometime take rash decisions.

So you believe she left her girlfreind because she wanted a husband and not a child? - i think you are trying to strenghten youre case through youre personal opinion,

I believe anybody in love is not able to make rational decisions because love is irrational, still doesnt mean you cant love.

Anyways believe what u want,

Indy

 

[kds1980]

So you believe she left her girlfreind because she wanted a husband and not a child? - i think you are trying to strenghten youre case through youre personal opinion,

I believe anybody in love is not able to make rational decisions because love is irrational, still doesnt mean you cant love.

Anyways believe what u want,

Indy

I am not trying to strengthen my case i am just guessing.The other reason could be that she knew that in homosexual relationship she has to live like an outcaste from the society.

 

[Randip Singh]

ok, i'm sorry i'm saying this but same sex marriage is just WRONG! i do not believe it is how god intended us to be and sex marriage is based on nothing but LUST! proved by the article above it said : "When I first met her I felt like touching her) :advocate::shock: I know u should keep ur opinions to ur self, but i just HAD to say something about this.

Hmm I can never understand why a Homosexual relationship must be based on Lust yet a Hetrosexual on Love?

I am assuming that you are saying this because a same sex couple do not have sex to procreate......well news for you my dear ....I know many Hetro couples who cannot have children but still got married. I take it every time they have sex they are doing so out of Lust? Could it be it is their expression of love.

I think you need to analyse what you have stated before passing judgment on whose relationsip is based on Kaam and who's is not.

PS I say this as someone who was very Homophobic at one time.....and through Bani I have learned there is room for us all on this planet.

 

[CaramelChocolate]

Alhamdulilah (praise be to God), Randip, your post was very touching and inspiring.

 

[skeptik]

I dont know if it has been mentioned before, so I will mention it now: Culturally we have never entertained homosexuality. Why should that change now?

 

[CaramelChocolate]

I dont know if it has been mentioned before, so I will mention it now: Culturally we have never entertained homosexuality. Why should that change now?

Culture is not timeless, it changes. If Guru Nanak did not question his culture then Sikhi would not be here today. He questioned many social norms such as caste discrimination, murti puja and a ritual approach to God... the possibilities are limitless.

 

[skeptik]

Culture is not timeless, it changes. If Guru Nanak did not question his culture then Sikhi would not be here today. He questioned many social norms such as caste discrimination, murti puja and a ritual approach to God... the possibilities are limitless.

Sure, culture is not timeless and it changes. That is exactly our challenge as Sikhs though -- to maintain the way of our founders. We owe it to them and to ourselves to live the way they did. It doesn't follow that by Sikhi we are free to innovate ourselves away from our past. Of those limitless possibilities, our duty lies in following the path of tradition. After all that is where we find the richness of our faith and our best guide to living as Sikhs. You have not answered my question: Why should we depart so drastically from our culture?

 

[CaramelChocolate]

Sure, culture is not timeless and it changes. That is exactly our challenge as Sikhs though -- to maintain the way of our founders. We owe it to them and to ourselves to live the way they did. It doesn't follow that by Sikhi we are free to innovate ourselves away from our past. Of those limitless possibilities, our duty lies in following the path of tradition. After all that is where we find the richness of our faith and our best guide to living as Sikhs. You have not answered my question: Why should we depart so drastically from our culture?

I am not sure I would use the words culture and religion interchangeably, yet Sikhism isn't really a religion in that sense - so how should a Sikh, or Sikhism be defined? The Sikhism today is drastically different from Sikhism of the Gurus times and the British empire, initially it was a universal house of prayer for people of all faiths and a Sikh was some one of any faith/culture who believed in God... times have changed. At the Gurus time I could have called myself a Sikh, but now I cannot because I either have to be an amritdhari (convert) or a punjabi 'born' Sikh. So in reality, no one has stuck to the traditions of the Gurus.
Due to such changes, I am not in a position to answer your question. Maybe 100 years ago I would have been.

 

[skeptik]

I am not sure I would use the words culture and religion interchangeably, yet Sikhism isn't really a religion in that sense - so how should a Sikh, or Sikhism be defined?

There is no need to trouble over definitions -- all you have to do is take a honest look at our community. It did not spring from a vacuum -- we are not very far ahead, in time, from that original source. Let's leave the squabbling over definitions to those who have nothing better to do, and instead choose a better approach. Common sense dictates we look at our common reality. Our culture does not entertain homosexuality -- there is no place for it in our society except possibly at the margins. That is the way it has been since the beginning -- and I do not see any reason to change now.

There is no difference between Sikhi then and now. Sure times have changed -- this hardly bares mentioning for it is obvious -- but the essense of Sikhi remains the same. We cannot claim to be the Sikhs of Guru Nanak and at the same time fork from the rich tradition we have inherited. Many things change -- politics, technology and so on -- but we have in possession the same ideas on good society as did our founders.

Why should we innovate away from our tradition? Why should we abandon our centuries old culture? I am not convinced this even a good idea and I am struggling to understand the logic behind it.

 

[ISDhillon]

Why should we innovate away from our tradition? Why should we abandon our centuries old culture? I am not convinced this even a good idea and I am struggling to understand the logic behind it.

[/QUOTE]


why are you trying to understand the logic behind it? youre not willing to question centuries old tradition either, then homosexuality does not concern you neither does the need for you to entertain it arise, be happy in youre place and youre space, if homosexuals feel they have a need you do not have the need to butt in either.

 

[skeptik]

The need to understand arose because someone made this thread to discuss it. It concerns us all of us if we are to change our way of living. It is a drastic change to admit homosexuality into society -- and if we do not discuss it thoughtfully we will have let down our ancestors and those who will come after us. We have a responsibility to preserve the Sikh way -- and this must mean we do not innovate without good reason.

I must also add that you should not take things personally for in the big picture neither of us, nor anyone in this discussion, matter. What does matter is what we inherited in common and what traditions we will leave for our children.

 

[ISDhillon]

The need to understand arose because someone made this thread to discuss it. It concerns us all of us if we are to change our way of living. It is a drastic change to admit homosexuality into society -- and if we do not discuss it thoughtfully we will have let down our ancestors and those who will come after us. We have a responsibility to preserve the Sikh way -- and this must mean we do not innovate without good reason.

I must also add that you should not take things personally for in the big picture neither of us, nor anyone in this discussion matter. What does matter is what we inherited and what we will leave for our children.

Youve just come into this discussion now if you had read the previous posts you would have indeed seen a presence of homosexuality in sikh society during moghul periods, indeed many elevated bhagats were homosexuals it may come as a surprise to you, sha hussain, sarmad, etc etc were gay get used to it and do some research, this discussion started when vedanti opened his mouth not because of anyone on this forum , youre forgiven i dont take it personally.

 

[skeptik]

Maybe it impresses you that some bhagats were gay but that means little in the big picture. The facts are that we've never had a society that embraced homosexuality and there is zero proof for that ever happening. Look around you, tell me there is any even a small chance that a proud manly race like ours would ever accept such a thing. Our men are extremely macho -- your experience cannot be any different, and if it is, it is unrepresentative. It wouldn't happen now, and it wouldn't happen then. Whatever your history is telling you -- it is wrong. Only a defective mind which would hold any different from the obvious facts. Feel free to create an imaginary reality, but keep it out of a serious debate on Sikhi.

 

[CaramelChocolate]

but the essense of Sikhi remains the same.

Not really. It was initially to unify people of all faiths, this changed since the British empire and resulted in the current attitudes to homosexuality.

 

[Astroboy]

Equal Marriage for Same-Sex Couples | In our faiths | Purging toxic religion in Canada

 

[skeptik]

Not really. It was initially to unify people of all faiths, this changed since the British empire and resulted in the current attitudes to homosexuality.

a rather speculative statement.

The old "the brits did it" conspiracy theory which has been much abused over the years. What hasn't been hidden away in that convenient catchall. In this instance I think you've reached too far. You've made a concrete assertion: that prior to the british arrival, our attitudes towards homosexuality were different. Why should they have changed? How did this change come about? Why did the Sikhs accept the change so readily? These are just some questions you should address with a convincing argument if you can. It appears rather tenuous.

 

[skeptik]

Equal Marriage for Same-Sex Couples | In our faiths | Purging toxic religion in Canada

Some choice quotes:

This from a country where it is common for Hindus and Sikhs to slaughter each other in response to disputes.

and another fine one:

We're most confident that Sikhs in this country will not revert to the superstitions and behaviour of the underdeveloped countries they left behind, edicts from abroad notwithstanding.

Well, what a bunch of uncivilized savages we must be!

 

[ISDhillon]

Maybe it impresses you that some bhagats were gay but that means little in the big picture. The facts are that we've never had a society that embraced homosexuality and there is zero proof for that ever happening. Look around you, tell me there is any even a small chance that a proud manly race like ours would ever accept such a thing. Our men are extremely macho -- your experience cannot be any different, and if it is, it is unrepresentative. It wouldn't happen now, and it wouldn't happen then. Whatever your history is telling you -- it is wrong. Only a defective mind which would hold any different from the obvious facts. Feel free to create an imaginary reality, but keep it out of a serious debate on Sikhi.

It does not impress me at all, there are homosexuals in the gurdwara even in many sant deras there are granthis who give there life to sikhi cos their gay, nothing macho there. Views such as yours lead to the molestation of boys in the sangat by older granthis such was the recent case in canada, do not be blinded by youre personal feelings and try to look at things objectively. If you believe that same-sex marriages will not become an integral part of sikhi in the future then you are heading for a rude awakening, the revolution has started in punjab and will filter out into the diaspora too, youre views are shrivel in the wake of that.

Gurfateh

Indster

 

[kds1980]

It does not impress me at all, there are homosexuals in the gurdwara even in many sant deras there are granthis who give there life to sikhi cos their gay, nothing macho there. Views such as yours lead to the molestation of boys in the sangat by older granthis such was the recent case in canada, do not be blinded by youre personal feelings and try to look at things objectively. If you believe that same-sex marriages will not become an integral part of sikhi in the future then you are heading for a rude awakening, the revolution has started in punjab and will filter out into the diaspora too, youre views are shrivel in the wake of that.

Gurfateh

Indster

Dhillon ji so many sikh youngsters visit and complain on sikh sites that they cannot marry partners because they are of another caste and you are saying that same-sex marriages will be accepted by sikh society.It looks like sikh society is going backward.i am sorry to say but acceptance of same sex marriage is just a dream.

 

[skeptik]

there are homosexuals in the gurdwara even in many sant deras there are granthis who give there life to sikhi cos their gay, nothing macho there

That is a neglible group of people you are talking about. The set of Sikhs who frequent dere are very small compared to the total number of Sikhs. I wouldn't even consider them representative of ordinary Sikhs -- people who have jobs and families and children and so on, unlike idlers who have the time to waste visiting Deras.

Views such as yours lead to the molestation of boys in the sangat by older granthis such was the recent case in canada, do not be blinded by youre personal feelings and try to look at things objectively

Please stick to the subject. It doesn't give you any credibility when you make wild claims like these. You only end up looking silly.

f you believe that same-sex marriages will not become an integral part of sikhi in the future then you are heading for a rude awakening, the revolution has started in punjab and will filter out into the diaspora too, youre views are shrivel in the wake of that.

It doesn't matter what I believe. What matters is our common belief. Sikhs have never embraced homosexuality and we have no reason to change things now. The fact that you seem to believe our ideas on good society can change so violently is amusing. I dont know how you can sustain such a silly view, but since you've been unable to provide any reasoning behind your opinions, I can only guess that you have some serious common sense issues