Sikhism And Homosexuality

[Rajs]

Re: Legalising Homosexuality

God created mankind with a divine purpose; man and woman were created as a family unit and reproduction process being the channel of growth and spread of mankind.

There is no need for any debate or dicussion on homosexuality being ******* and immoral by any religious standard - Sikhism or others. Any person with a minuscule moral fabric and common sense can ascertain that human **** was not designed for sex. Each part of human body has a function and even a three year old child can work that out!

So all those depraved minds, who seek a platform for any discussion on homosexuality ought to take a cold shower and perhaps ask their parents about the process of their own birth and ask what role did rear-end play in it?

Regards
Rajs

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Legalising Homosexuality

God created mankind with a divine purpose; man and woman were created as a family unit and reproduction process being the channel of growth and spread of mankind.

There is no need for any debate or dicussion on homosexuality being ******* and immoral by any religious standard - Sikhism or others. Any person with a minuscule moral fabric and common sense can ascertain that human **** was not designed for sex. Each part of human body has a function and even a three year old child can work that out!

So all those depraved minds, who seek a platform for any discussion on homosexuality ought to take a cold shower and perhaps ask their parents about the process of their own birth and ask what role did rear-end play in it?

Regards
Rajs

If you are only made to reproduce then what if you cannot have children?

 

[Randip Singh]

LOL Is there any way one can truly recognise who is His/her true soul mate?

There are people who fell in love and say that they are true soul mate of each other and will die if separated and after some time of marriage they divorce each other by saying that
they can't live with each other

If we truly LOVE each other and not LUST after each other then why not?

 

[Lee]

I'm not trying to dodge any question. I am just trying to fathom why people are all of a sudden presuming that Sikhism condones homosexuality amongst its adherents?

So far all I have seen is the argument that silence (on the part of our scriptures and literature) may suggest acceptance (that is unless I am misunderstanding). I was merely pointing out such an interpretation is mistaken in my view. The argument that something not mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib or rehats indicates acceptance is plain false. That is all I was saying.



.

What two consenting adults do in the big wide world is their business. I am not here to judge them. But saying that this is acceptable within a Sikh lifestyle framework is another matter altogether.

I would like to ask, is there a danger, in todays world of mass communication. That we may erroneously project the norms of one culture/way of life onto another? I think this may be happening here.

I think it is right that Sikhs do not attack or vilify homosexuals, but saying that homsexuality is essentially sanctioned by Sikhi is being intellectually dishonest in itself. I don't know where the ultimate answer lies but the panth will probably come to some conclusion in due time....probably. In the meanwhile I am glad that Sikhs are not systematically attacking homosexuals like some groups.

Anyway, I am taking Rupinder's advice:



I'll leave you all to it.

Dalsingh Ji,

I am glad that you decided to answer my post and applogise if you thought the wording a bit strong.

You see from the words you use I get a sense of what yo belive, so that when you say:

'But saying that this is acceptable within a Sikh lifestyle framework is another matter altogether.'

And:

'The argument that something not mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib or rehats indicates acceptance is plain false. That is all I was saying.'

I can quite correctly infer that you belive that homosexuality is not condoned nor considered correct behaviour for any practicing Sikh.
Further, you state that Guru Granths Sahib fails to mention homoexuality, then I am left wondering exactly from what source this belife of yours comes, and so I have asked (this being the second time) for you to clarify this to me?

The intelectual dishonesty I speak of stems from your seemingly unwillingness to examine such a belife, to find where it comes from, and to decide whether it has any value or merit.

Of course I may be wrong, it may all be a case of myself having not made myself clear?

I an effert to fix any problems of communication betwen us let me offer you my own reasoning for why I belive that Sikhi can do nothing else than embrace homosexuality as as normal human behaviuor.

It is clear that being gay is not a choice, that a gay man or woman can no more choose to be sexualy excited by memebers of the opposite gender than you or I can choose to find members of our own gender sexualy attractive. If this is the case, then surely a gay man is exactly how God has made him. Who are we humans then to decide who can and who cannot seek God via the path of Sikhi?

Indeed Guru ji remains silent on the issue, one has to ask why is this. You are correct it may not mean acceptance, although again I must ask why? What it is about being homosexaul do you think that many of our religions condone?

 

[vsgrewal48895]

If you are only made to reproduce then what if you cannot have children?

Randip Ji,

Then the husband should go and see a Urologist and wife a gyenacologist.

Virinder

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Randip Ji,

Then the husband should go and see a Urologist and wife a gyenacologist.

Virinder

virindfer Ji,
Nice sense of humour..he he.

 

[KulwantK]

Yes, there certainly are some extremely pressing matters indeed!
Wahe Guru!

 

[Randip Singh]

Randip Ji,

Then the husband should go and see a Urologist and wife a gyenacologist.

Virinder

What if even after that they cannot have children?

They cannot procreate so what is the point of their marriage?

 

[spnadmin]

What if even after that they cannot have children?

They cannot procreate so what is the point of their marriage?

Randip ji

Another wonderful example that makes me think you have been reading medieval European philosophy.

Children can be one purpose for marriage. What is created can be children. But not the only thing that is created in marriage. When we live in an unmarried state there are many aspects of our Ego that go untested. In marriage Ego is tested continually. Marriage is a growth experience unlike few others. Raising children and caring for elderly parents are on the same plane. So then, marriage is also an opportunity to create the perfection of the soul bride, and a chance to overcome that sense of false self through the marriage itself.

Our path IMHO is to discover how we can be truly married to each other when both are brides to the Divine Bridegroom, within a marriage and as a single person. So I am wondering whether it is putting the cart before the horse when we explore our earthly predicaments in marriage or in an unmarried state without the overarching goal in sight.

 

[vsgrewal48895]

What if even after that they cannot have children?

They cannot procreate so what is the point of their marriage?

Dear Randip Ji,

Most of the infertility problems have medical answer.

Cordially,

Virinder

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Randip ji

Another wonderful example that makes me think you have been reading medieval European philosophy.

Children can be one purpose for marriage. What is created can be children. But not the only thing that is created in marriage. When we live in an unmarried state there are many aspects of our Ego that go untested. In marriage Ego is tested continually. Marriage is a growth experience unlike few others. Raising children and caring for elderly parents are on the same plane. So then, marriage is also an opportunity to create the perfection of the soul bride, and a chance to overcome that sense of false self through the marriage itself.

Our path IMHO is to discover how we can be truly married to each other when both are brides to the Divine Bridegroom, within a marriage and as a single person. So I am wondering whether it is putting the cart before the horse when we explore our earthly predicaments in marriage or in an unmarried state without the overarching goal in sight.

Narayanjot Kaur Jio,
gurfateh Ji.

THAT is exactly why we SIKHS are so incredibly fortunate to have Guru Jis Sikhia by way of the LAAVAN. The Laavan are not just for a worldly marriage/physical relationship/children/procreation etc....the Laavaan carry a much much DEEPER Messgae..a Divine "Constitution" for the Perfect Marriage...if only we listen to what Guru Ji is saying to us...ALAS..we take the Laavan to be just a fromality thta has to be "hurried" through..so we can get to the "Very Important" aspects of Marriage Lunc, wedding Dinner and Dance..bhnagra etc..we have taken the ICING as VITAL..and THROWN AWAY THE CAKE !! if that is not unfortunate..I dont know what is.
Just as Todays cheap skate Iicng..is all fats and bad for us/our health...so is the Marriage Icing..bhangras, dinners, alcohol and dancing, extra rituals and all....ABSOLUTELY HARMFUL for our social Health and well being..we are being KILLED by this POISNOUS ICING...and the result is more and more Divorces/ social problems, fighting, wife ebating, wife burning, domestic violence, children turning into gangsters...etc etc..the LAAVAN CAKE is the REMEDY...we refuse to eat it...and instead choose to DEVOUR the Poisonous Icing...who can help us ??

 

[Randip Singh]

Dear Randip Ji,

Most of the infertility problems have medical answer.

Cordially,

Virinder

I beg to differ.

I know many childless couples. It is becoming an increasing problem.

However, that is not the point. If you cannot have children (despite treatment) what is the point of marriage?

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Dear Randip Ji,

Firstly I have been a Urologist for 40 years and have treated patients for the problems. One of my grand daughter was fertilized in a dish and implanted later. Adoption is another choice including other medical options.

Besides this one needs the company to be a house holder as advised by our faith and renunciation of family life is not advised.

I have nothing further to say on this thread. Thanks for your interaction.

Cordially,

Virinder

 

[Randip Singh]

Dear Randip Ji,

Firstly I have been a Urologist for 40 years and have treated patients for the problems. One of my grand daughter was fertilized in a dish and implanted later. Adoption is another choice including other medical options.

Besides this one needs the company to be a house holder as advised by our faith and renunciation of family life is not advised.

I have nothing further to say on this thread. Thanks for your interaction.

Cordially,

Virinder

Grewal ji, you of all people know that some couples cannot have children.

As you have stated adoption is an option and in the UK Gay couples can adopt.

Gay Adoption Group UK. Lesbian Mums & Gay Dads. Support. LGB Adopters & Families

Although religious people have objection.

I said in another post, I know Gay couples who live the lives of a "housholder". Only difference is they are same sex.

I know many of us may find the actual physical acts they do abhorrent, but I can tell you I know many people who find the physical act between a man and a woman abhorrent.

That aside, if a couple love each other, commit to each other, and live a good clean life, where then is the objection?

In India we thing Alexander the Great is almost like a God, yet he was bi-sexual and had a male lover. Maybe we should try and erase that from history books.

 

[kds1980]

I found this article on another forum

Robert Epstein, Scientific American Mind, Vol 20, Number 3, 2009.
Page 68
... A recent position statement by the American Academy of Pediatrics and eight other national organisations agrees that “sexual orientation fall along a continuum.” In other words, sexual attraction is simply not a black and white matter, and the labels straight, and gay do not capture the complexities.
For obvious evolutionary reasons, most people are strongly inclined to prefer opposite sex partners, because such relationships produce children who continue the human race. But a few probably between 3 and 7 percent of the population are exclusively attracted to members of the same sex, and many are in the middle. If a person’s genes place him or her towards one end of what I call the Sexual Orientation Continuum, he or she almost certainly can never become homosexual. If the genes place the person at the other end of the curve, he or she almost certainly cannot become straight – or atleast not a happy straight. But if an individual is somewhere in between, environment can be a major influence, especially when the person is young. Because society strongly favours the straight life, in the vast majority of cases the shift will be towards heterosexuality.
The way sexuality plays out is eerily similar to the process by which people become left- or right-handed. I may sound contrary to common sense, but scientific studies suggest that genes play a relatively small role in handedness; its heritability – an estimate of what proportion of a trait’s variability can be accounted for by genes – is only about 0.32 compared with, say, 0.84 for height, and 0.95 for head width. Then why is more than 90 percent of the population right-handed? It is because of that cultural push working again. Subtle and not so subtle influences make children favour their right hand, and the flexibility they probably had when they were young is simply lost as the grow up. Although they can still use the left hand, their handedness becomes so well established that they would find it difficult, if not impossible, to become left-handed.
Preliminary studies by psychologist J. Michael Bailey of Northwestern University, Michael King of University College London and others suggest that the heritability of homosexuality is not much higher than that of handedness – perhaps in the range 0.25 to 0.50 or so for males and somewhat lower for females. This finding raises an intriguing question : If people were raised in a truly orientation-neutral culture, what sexual orientation would they express? Although it is unlikely that half of us would end up gay, without societal pressure it is clear that a much larger proportion of the population would express homosexuality than we see now.

 

[kds1980]

So in other words if Homosexuality becomes acceptable we will find much more homosexuals according to this research.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

So in other words if Homosexuality becomes acceptable we will find much more homosexuals according to this research.

Thats is the intention...imho...
IF its "criminal"..then it will be underground..in secret..IF "acceptable"..it will come out in the open...
Hiding ones head under the carpet doesnt mean a thing...SWITCHING on the LIGHT reveals all the rubbish/treasures...in the room...if the light is switched off and we cant "see" anything doesnt mean all the rubbish and the treasures are NOT THERE.

1. all this while the west society condemned this..its condemned in the Bible, the Old testament, the Koran etc...lately they have become more liberal...
2. IN Sikh Scriptures..sggs or rehitnamahs the subject is not discussed at all....so its up to us the Panth to decide our position on the touchstone of Gurbani in sggs...

 

[spnadmin]

Forgive me...in these times, Who is the Panth?

 

[Tejwant Singh]

I fail to understand why this fear against homosexuality. Someone else's sexual orientation does not affect my life in any shape or form. My heterosexuality is not in danger because of them.

We know that homosexuality also exists in the animal kingdom, so it is not a choice but part of creation.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Randip Singh]

So in other words if Homosexuality becomes acceptable we will find much more homosexuals according to this research.

KDS ji.

In society homosexuality is far less acceptable then say the time of Alexander the great (when it was actually encouraged). Christianity has done a lot to do this. The traditional Indian attitude has been tolerance.

Homophobia is real. I have heard my Gay friends get abuse because of this.

In anycase there are may articles on this. Some claim this is inherited, and some its genetic.

BBC NEWS | Health | How homosexuality is 'inherited'