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I agree with Gyaniji, there are pleasures, and then there are needs, and then there are addictions, addictions is a fancy way of saying gluttony
Sikhism And Sex
Sp ji,
Guru fateh.
Would you be kind enough to elaborate what do you mean by having honourable intentions about engaging in a premarital sex? The lady is someone's daughter and sister.
Would you also consider the intentions to be honourble of the other person, if the lady happens to be your sister or daughter and you come to know that she is having premarital sex with him, and perhaps she is also underage?
Tejwant Singh.
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Tejwantji,
My father would say exactly the same, I am curious, would you be drinking that glass of milk in peace, or out of a sense of denial?
many thanks
Veer ji If she is someones wife then that would be more relevant morally,perhaps he was talking about a western girl and and she is not tarnished in the eyes of her society then her dignity is not affected.He should not use her as a means to an ends and respect her freedom.If she in herself does not want to abstain and only does so out of fear of her family or society, then she is just conforming to a rule imposed on her ,much more value lies in her acting under rules she imposes on herself.
As for an apology it also has more value if it has been offered freely and has not been coerced,notwithstanding I understand Admin and Moderators are human and on reflection taking one side in a discourse is not a defence of an individual,although anyone reading the post would have seen that it was a very personal view and should not have been posted in the guise of Admin.As for the accusation, I agree it was not gentlemanly of me.
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I would like to bring some focus back to this thread. Here are some questions to contemplate:
1) Why the hurry? Why not wait until you are ready to get married to the right person?
2) No form of contraceptive is 100% effective. If the result is a child would you be ready? How would you deal with the situation? Would you be able to do the best for the child?
3) If you do end up changing partners and marrying someone else, how would you feel about their past? How would they feel about yours? Can you really say the bond you have as as special as it would be had you been patient?
4) Why do you feel you cannot wait? Is that society's pressure/peer pressure that makes you feel as if you are missing out? Waiting may not be a result of old culture, not waiting may be a result of the new culture we are in!!
1) Why the hurry? Why not wait until you are ready to get married to the right person?
2) No form of contraceptive is 100% effective. If the result is a child would you be ready? How would you deal with the situation? Would you be able to do the best for the child?
3) If you do end up changing partners and marrying someone else, how would you feel about their past? How would they feel about yours? Can you really say the bond you have as as special as it would be had you been patient?
4) Why do you feel you cannot wait? Is that society's pressure/peer pressure that makes you feel as if you are missing out? Waiting may not be a result of old culture, not waiting may be a result of the new culture we are in!!
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The following answers are honest answers and do not reflect my current state of mind:-
1. Because its all I thought about at 17, maybe it was the media, maybe it made me feel more of a man, maybe it was the thought that the impending arranged marriage meant that I had a limited time to experience the world , and also there seemed no problem for boys that were not virgins to get married.
2. 3 close scares, 2 abortions, at the time, it was a case of being lucky, what worried me more was infection, having said that, numbers wise, I managed to get into the early hundreds, so it is possible that there are some little Harry's out there, if the situation had arisen at the time, my parents would have killed me, but for most of my twenties, I remained completely at the mercy of my lust.
3. Now this is an interesting one, I have no regrets, my past enables me to find the thought of another woman quite boring, pointless even,. I do not look at porn, I do not think of other women, my wife also has a history, although not as extensive as mine, there are times when 'ghosts of the past' do rear their ugly heads, but they are more emotional than sexual issues, the question here is do I wish I had only slept with my wife? that answer would have to be 'NO', as attraction to other partners is an issue that has not arisen in 7 years of marriage. The way I look at it, it took me well over a hundred women to find the right one.
4. If my understanding of sikhism at 17 had been similar to my understanding now, I would have definately waited, I would have had that arranged marriage (which I never had), I would have had kids, mum and dad would have had their grandchildren, I would be part of a huge family of cousins, uncles, aunties, weddings etc, I would be a normal sikh sardar. But it does not work like that, all the sikh men I know of my age are mostly stuck in Maya, they are married, but they go with *****s, they have a secret life, and a sikhi life, I was shocked to find that on my last trip to India, and having a knack for delving and digging deeper than most, I realised that most marriages were a sham, most wives were treated quite poorly, the dowry system is still in place, the arguments about quantities of dowry still go on, most sikh ceremonies are ritualistic and without any note given to the message or the information being shared, just the food and booze afterwards,
Sure, I have led a wicked and selfish life, but I would rather be where I am now, with the path ahead of me.
Of course I could have married young, given myself to my wife, and also found sikhi, but a part of me feels that would be have been unlikely, it is only so much exposure to all the thieves that has made me determined to find something more
I am starting to view the sexually active (outside of marriage) as weak willed lemmings, now when I think of the model of man that I could admire, it is the traditional saint soldier fighting wrong, embracing philosophy that is in line with sikhi, being strong both in will and in body, a giant of goodness that cannot be swayed by something as trivial as sex, if I were to meet me aged 27 now, I would pity me
1. Because its all I thought about at 17, maybe it was the media, maybe it made me feel more of a man, maybe it was the thought that the impending arranged marriage meant that I had a limited time to experience the world , and also there seemed no problem for boys that were not virgins to get married.
2. 3 close scares, 2 abortions, at the time, it was a case of being lucky, what worried me more was infection, having said that, numbers wise, I managed to get into the early hundreds, so it is possible that there are some little Harry's out there, if the situation had arisen at the time, my parents would have killed me, but for most of my twenties, I remained completely at the mercy of my lust.
3. Now this is an interesting one, I have no regrets, my past enables me to find the thought of another woman quite boring, pointless even,. I do not look at porn, I do not think of other women, my wife also has a history, although not as extensive as mine, there are times when 'ghosts of the past' do rear their ugly heads, but they are more emotional than sexual issues, the question here is do I wish I had only slept with my wife? that answer would have to be 'NO', as attraction to other partners is an issue that has not arisen in 7 years of marriage. The way I look at it, it took me well over a hundred women to find the right one.
4. If my understanding of sikhism at 17 had been similar to my understanding now, I would have definately waited, I would have had that arranged marriage (which I never had), I would have had kids, mum and dad would have had their grandchildren, I would be part of a huge family of cousins, uncles, aunties, weddings etc, I would be a normal sikh sardar. But it does not work like that, all the sikh men I know of my age are mostly stuck in Maya, they are married, but they go with *****s, they have a secret life, and a sikhi life, I was shocked to find that on my last trip to India, and having a knack for delving and digging deeper than most, I realised that most marriages were a sham, most wives were treated quite poorly, the dowry system is still in place, the arguments about quantities of dowry still go on, most sikh ceremonies are ritualistic and without any note given to the message or the information being shared, just the food and booze afterwards,
Sure, I have led a wicked and selfish life, but I would rather be where I am now, with the path ahead of me.
Of course I could have married young, given myself to my wife, and also found sikhi, but a part of me feels that would be have been unlikely, it is only so much exposure to all the thieves that has made me determined to find something more
I am starting to view the sexually active (outside of marriage) as weak willed lemmings, now when I think of the model of man that I could admire, it is the traditional saint soldier fighting wrong, embracing philosophy that is in line with sikhi, being strong both in will and in body, a giant of goodness that cannot be swayed by something as trivial as sex, if I were to meet me aged 27 now, I would pity me
Veer ji Bit risky to sleep with one hundred women before marriage but you have to say thats pretty good going,although I don't mean to encourage the chap.What is contentious in this matter is what value you put to premarital sex and how does it impact upon Sikhi Precepts?
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veerji,
its different for me, there are two values here, the value one has for oneself, and the value one ascribes to family values, my wife is an orphan, so has no family to care who she marries, mine are just happy I have settled down, I would imagine the family value is the one that most twenty year olds are worried about, rare at that age is the one that even knows their own values on this subject, certainly from a male point of view.
As I said, if I knew then, what I know now, things would be different, I would have seen chastity and discipline as greater values than quanitities and variety
its different for me, there are two values here, the value one has for oneself, and the value one ascribes to family values, my wife is an orphan, so has no family to care who she marries, mine are just happy I have settled down, I would imagine the family value is the one that most twenty year olds are worried about, rare at that age is the one that even knows their own values on this subject, certainly from a male point of view.
As I said, if I knew then, what I know now, things would be different, I would have seen chastity and discipline as greater values than quanitities and variety
Harry ji, Thank you for sharing your experiences. However, this thread is not about your past but about guidance for other youngsters. Let us not confuse arranged marriages with either Sikhi or premarital relations. There is absolutely no connection between them. I do not understand the point you are making in the above paragraph? Are you trying to say these things wouldn't happen if people slept around? The behaviours you describe are wrong but have nothing to do with the topic in hand. They reflect the difficulties people have in living in accordance to Sikh principles, they do not reflect whether sex before marriage is right or wrong. We must be very careful in what we are telling vulnerable minds! I think point 2 in your posts demonstrates perfectly why sex before marrige is completely irresponsible and not in line with Sikhi ideals.
The question is it wrong is the incorrect question. Lets think of it another way. What is right about sex before marriage? How does it fit in with our ideals? How does it fit in with the meaning represented by a kacchera? Is the act compatible with Sikh philosophy? Can you imagine the Guru's or any of our shaheeds behaving this way? Would you accept it of an amritdhari singh? If not, even if you are not at that stage, should you not be aiming to behave like them too? If not moving in that direction and having awareness of it (whether you achieve in the short or long term), can we really say we are on the path? By making excuses or saying that it is normal, are we encouraging others (often youngsters) in the situation to come toward Sikhi or move away? Are we really thinking about the consequences or focussing merely on personal gratification?
These are just some points to ponder........
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- Jan 31, 2011
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I answered Jasleenji's question first, when I should really have answered yours Learner55ji first as quite rightly Jasleenji has pointed out that my contribution to this thread is quite negative from the point of view of someone young like yourself,
What does sex do, well each time you have sex, you lose part of yourself, you give some of your spirit away, yes, the body is always eager beforehand, but afterwards, you go through feelings of guilt, shame, disgust, repulsion. You go through a cycle of getting home as fast as you can and scrubbing yourself clean, every spot, every blemish, every rash causes you to lie in bed at night worried sick, you convince yourself that this was the last time, but it happens time and time again, and the same cycle of lust, disgust, shame, the number of women burns in your head, after a while it does not matter any more, the respect that you once had for yourself fades, it is replaced with the knowledge that you are the dirtiest and the lowest of the low, you find it difficult even to shake the hand of a Sardar, because you do not want him to catch anything from you, you develop a smell, a smell of dirt, that only you can smell, the disgust and the fear affects your relationship with your family, your mother and father treat you with pride, but you know who you are, you know the life you are living, you constantly think if people knew who you really were, they would not even make conversation with you, you end up alone, you cry a lot, you drink a lot to blot out the disgust you have for yourself, you look at young married sikh couples with envy, innocence, the smell of purity, you realise just how bad things have become when you end up with a knife to your throat by an angry husband, oh the shame, the drive home, the tears, the people you let down the most are your parents, as you cannot be honest with them, the world laughs and smiles, the world in all its innocence, babies, dogs, nice clean houses, no, they are not for you, yours is the stench of your lust, and the constant cycle of pleasure and disgust, and then as you lie in your hospital bed, being told, you are probably going to die, as your lifestyle has weakened your strong singh body, you cry, and you regret, and you scream out loud, why didn't anyone tell me all this
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Harry veer ji thanks for your post. I will shake your hand and hug you in spite of all you described about in your past. mundahug
Back to the topic, let us put facts on the table here perhaps with a glass of milk and cookies.
Facts are:
1. There is no code or prohibition against sex per se in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji before or after marriage.
Under Article XVIII:
e. When a girl becomes marriageable, physically, emotionally and by virtue of maturity of character, a suitable Sikh match should be found and she be married to him by Anand marriage rites.
f. Marriage may not be preceded by engagement ceremony. But if an engagement ceremony is sought to he held, a congregational gathering should be held and, after offering the Ardas before the Guru Granth Sahib, a kirpan, a steel bangle and some sweets may be tendered to the boy.
Under Article XVIII:
3. Cohabiting with a person other than one's spouse;
Sikh Reht Maryada only states sex as or cohabitation out of “Anand Karaj”. Even by any stretch of the imagination, pre-marital sex is not cohabitation or “Marriage” as no “Anand Karaj” has taken place. Hence Sikh Reht Maryada does not rule against pre-marital sex.
So under worst of circumstances it falls under “Kaam/Lust”. Kaam can be a thought, a touch, a glance, a kiss, a brush on the subway or a bus, a dream, and so on. You commit no sin as there are no sins in Sikhism. You don’t want Kaam to go out of control. If one can do that, one is as good as if not the better than the next person.
Control or management of Kaam/lust is an individual responsibility. The more we encourage others to recognize this, the better help we are providing. There is no one here at spn (or you can stone me in the village square) who had no lustful thoughts over time. You had a thought once, it is with you for ever in conscious or sub-conscious.
We should refrain from making rules on the go as one thing leads to another till the whole purpose or approach of our help becomes a sham.
“Fools who wrangle over Kaam!”
Sat Sri Akal.
Harry veer ji did you ever think about becoming a politician with a comment like above. I wish I could learn such tact and wisdom.
Back to the topic, let us put facts on the table here perhaps with a glass of milk and cookies.
Facts are:
1. There is no code or prohibition against sex per se in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji before or after marriage.
- Why so! Folks it is not a book of codes or laws and bylaws. It is wisdom and a teacher.
Under Article XVIII:
e. When a girl becomes marriageable, physically, emotionally and by virtue of maturity of character, a suitable Sikh match should be found and she be married to him by Anand marriage rites.
f. Marriage may not be preceded by engagement ceremony. But if an engagement ceremony is sought to he held, a congregational gathering should be held and, after offering the Ardas before the Guru Granth Sahib, a kirpan, a steel bangle and some sweets may be tendered to the boy.
Under Article XVIII:
3. Cohabiting with a person other than one's spouse;
So question posed needs to be focused as posted by Learner55 ji,
Using and understanding Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in the concept of a Guru , teacher and wisdom, there is no code or edict against pre-Marital sex neither I expected any. I continue to emphasize it is not a code book or a cook book of ready made answers.
Sikh Reht Maryada only states sex as or cohabitation out of “Anand Karaj”. Even by any stretch of the imagination, pre-marital sex is not cohabitation or “Marriage” as no “Anand Karaj” has taken place. Hence Sikh Reht Maryada does not rule against pre-marital sex.
So under worst of circumstances it falls under “Kaam/Lust”. Kaam can be a thought, a touch, a glance, a kiss, a brush on the subway or a bus, a dream, and so on. You commit no sin as there are no sins in Sikhism. You don’t want Kaam to go out of control. If one can do that, one is as good as if not the better than the next person.
Control or management of Kaam/lust is an individual responsibility. The more we encourage others to recognize this, the better help we are providing. There is no one here at spn (or you can stone me in the village square) who had no lustful thoughts over time. You had a thought once, it is with you for ever in conscious or sub-conscious.
We should refrain from making rules on the go as one thing leads to another till the whole purpose or approach of our help becomes a sham.
“Fools who wrangle over Kaam!”
Sat Sri Akal.
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Veer ji Don't be too hard on yourself I guess what you did was a bit of sharing others ,I meant sharing with others!They lusted after you too I hope, so it's just a mutual exchange.I would not shake your hand though as that much honesty deserves a hug.
Veer Ji Ambarsaria I agree that was a lesson in tact and diplomacy from Harry,but to your analysis even if it had been in the Code of Conduct it would have needed amending eventually in my view.The body is easy to make yogi , mann nu yogi karna is much harder.
I would recommend getting married to the young man if that does not kill your lust nothing will!
Veer Ji Ambarsaria I agree that was a lesson in tact and diplomacy from Harry,but to your analysis even if it had been in the Code of Conduct it would have needed amending eventually in my view.The body is easy to make yogi , mann nu yogi karna is much harder.
I would recommend getting married to the young man if that does not kill your lust nothing will!
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Harry ji,
Guru Fateh.
I am sure your father used that in a metaphorical sense as I did. It just means restraint and the most difficult part is when the hormones due to the certain age are tearing one's seams out-pun intended- and the other partner, in this case a woman is willing.
Gurbani teaches us morality and wrongs and rights, especially at those moments when we are most vulnerable.
Temptation is a normal thing and I had many but I dropped the ladies at their doors and left. They and their kids come and visit me even today from the UK, Portugal, Italy, Spain, Brasil, Austraila, Argentina and Uruguay. We are all very good friends. Some are even grandmas.
Regards
Tejwant Singh
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Tejwant Singh ji thanks for your post. That shows you travelled unless all came to see you in USA. Nothing like meeting people from all different backgrounds and traveling as it in itself is educational. I think, it goes without saying that Tejwant Singh ji and Harry Haller ji were some kind of intelligent and handsome dudes in years past! My father used to say to encourage me to marry, "Your market value keeps dropping after certain age".
How can anyone ever forget their first love :blushh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xt6L02Kuoq0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EuDqNew2K4
Sat Sri Akal.
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Ambarsaria ji, are STD's and unwanted pregnancies not negative effects on the body? Some STD's have long term and devastating effects on several parts of the body. I have patients who have gone permanently blind from an STD. The SGGS is not a rule book but it does give us a moral compass to make our own decisions. Are you saying risking pregnancy before commitment is a moral and responsible way to behave? I truly don't understand why it is so hard to wait until a person is ready for commitment?
I don't think the decision should be governed about whether guilt and sin as these are not what Sikhi relies on. As a Sikh our behaviour should be governed by the RIGHT thing to do so once I again I ask not why it is wrong but why it is right?
Once again, I would like to know whether it is in line with the symbolism of the kachhera? We were given the kachhera by Guru Gobind Singh Ji for chastity so is sex before marriage compatible with this?
Harry ji wrote this great line in another thread, I hope he doesn't mind me using it here:
Is sex before firm commitment not just giving in to our animal instincts??
:interestedkudi:
Ambarsaria ji,
Guru Fateh.
You write:
You are right about that, but SGGS, our only Guru is not about do's and don'ts but will's and will nots. 1429 pages of SGGS are filled with this and they give us the tools how we can manouver our mann-mind towards being productive in this world from all aspects. Hence, the permission or prohibition of premarital sex is irrelevant the way this beautiful poetry teaches us morality. It depends on us if we adhere to that.
SRM is written and haphazardly put together by a few without giving it a deeper thought and I wrote about it many years ago that it has to be updated with the modern times so the dogmas inserted in it should be taken out and the tools of pragmatism should be added in. But, sadly due to the division in the Panth and lack of Gurmat practices by the rule makers themselves makes it difficult. Case in point is the bigamy of Jathedar of Takhat Patna Sahib.
The question posted by Learner55 can only have any relevance and significance provided he understands the foundation of morality laid by our Gurus in SGGS. He must remind himself that one is not born a Sikh but becomes one. If he is born a Sikh but does not practice Sikhi as per the moral values of SGGS our only Guru, then he is free to do anything because SGGS means nothing to him but an idol worshipping. I hope I am wrong.
Ambarsaria ji, I am afraid, you are contradicting yourself in your above post. You are right about "SGGS in the concept of a Guru , teacher and wisdom". So, the question arises what kind of wisdom does our Guru teaches us? And, I am sure you are aware that the first and foremost is to cultivate the highest possible moral compass and live by it.
Our own Sikh history is the best proof of this moral compass of the highest level. Our brave Sikhs spared many Hindu and Muslim women and girls from the hands of the Muslim fiends where they were raped mercilessly and brought back to their parents.
Before the holocaust of 1984 agaisnt the Sikhs, I am sure you are very well aware that both Muslim and Hindu families urged their daughters to look for a Sikh driver of 3-wheeler or a car taxi.
Sikhs were and still keep these high moral standards, thanks to the moral compass laid by our visionary Gurus. One more case in point is the Sikh regiments working for the UN. Many regiments from other countries were accused of rapes except the Sikhs and they have had the most dangerous task in hand which is to secure the borders between Lebanon and Israel. During the war some years ago, they helped the both sides equally.
So, it is not a question of premarital sex but our moral compass also teaches us how to avoid adultery and rapes and do good.
Regards
Tejwant Singh
Guru Fateh.
You write:
You are right about that, but SGGS, our only Guru is not about do's and don'ts but will's and will nots. 1429 pages of SGGS are filled with this and they give us the tools how we can manouver our mann-mind towards being productive in this world from all aspects. Hence, the permission or prohibition of premarital sex is irrelevant the way this beautiful poetry teaches us morality. It depends on us if we adhere to that.
SRM is written and haphazardly put together by a few without giving it a deeper thought and I wrote about it many years ago that it has to be updated with the modern times so the dogmas inserted in it should be taken out and the tools of pragmatism should be added in. But, sadly due to the division in the Panth and lack of Gurmat practices by the rule makers themselves makes it difficult. Case in point is the bigamy of Jathedar of Takhat Patna Sahib.
The question posted by Learner55 can only have any relevance and significance provided he understands the foundation of morality laid by our Gurus in SGGS. He must remind himself that one is not born a Sikh but becomes one. If he is born a Sikh but does not practice Sikhi as per the moral values of SGGS our only Guru, then he is free to do anything because SGGS means nothing to him but an idol worshipping. I hope I am wrong.
Ambarsaria ji, I am afraid, you are contradicting yourself in your above post. You are right about "SGGS in the concept of a Guru , teacher and wisdom". So, the question arises what kind of wisdom does our Guru teaches us? And, I am sure you are aware that the first and foremost is to cultivate the highest possible moral compass and live by it.
Our own Sikh history is the best proof of this moral compass of the highest level. Our brave Sikhs spared many Hindu and Muslim women and girls from the hands of the Muslim fiends where they were raped mercilessly and brought back to their parents.
Before the holocaust of 1984 agaisnt the Sikhs, I am sure you are very well aware that both Muslim and Hindu families urged their daughters to look for a Sikh driver of 3-wheeler or a car taxi.
Sikhs were and still keep these high moral standards, thanks to the moral compass laid by our visionary Gurus. One more case in point is the Sikh regiments working for the UN. Many regiments from other countries were accused of rapes except the Sikhs and they have had the most dangerous task in hand which is to secure the borders between Lebanon and Israel. During the war some years ago, they helped the both sides equally.
So, it is not a question of premarital sex but our moral compass also teaches us how to avoid adultery and rapes and do good.
Regards
Tejwant Singh
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Tejwant Singh ji thanks for your post.
My comments for consideration below. Let me know if I should correct or amend the post sometimes the tones can be wrong and I have been guilty of that.
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Sex is a beautiful thing between people who care for each other. We are quite different from animals who use it for just pro-creation and have found other uses for the creator’s gift.
Sat Sri Akal.[/FONT]
My comments for consideration below. Let me know if I should correct or amend the post sometimes the tones can be wrong and I have been guilty of that.
Tejwant Singh ji I hear you very clearly but it is spn policy to accept the Sikh Reht Maryada as it exists and not how we want it to be. Of course there are ways of making suggestions but doing so in every thread will be considered not complying with TOS at spn. I for sure have few suggestions too on Sikh Reht Maryada. I hope you paid notice to some of the underlying I used in my quoting of SRM. For example the bridegroom can be offered a bangle and sweets.peacesign
Why are we such harsh with others while we are perhaps as guilty in making mistakes in our execution of Sikhism. I point no fingers but posts here attest to the fact that even Sikhs make mistakes but that is all these are. Is it huge mistake to have protected pre-marital sex between consenting adults, I don’t think so.
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Tejwant Singh ji thanks for your comment. In absolute sense you are right but in relative sense you are not. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and our Guru ji’s knew that no one can be perfect. Mistakes and transgressions are part of life. At worst pre-marital sex is a transgression, it is not end of the world in terms corrupting the person. Remembering mind before matter, the thread starter has already transgressed in his mind to think of sex per the strictest of definitions if one were to impose this logic. Let us see how it allows us to provide help to SIkhs who seek such help while 99.999+% would not do so.
Of course it is a question of pre-marital sex as that is what the poster asked. He did not ask for moral compass as no one addressed how he linked “marital sex” to other anti-Sikh and bad behaviors and most have just talked about sex, sin and disease.
Sex is a beautiful thing between people who care for each other. We are quite different from animals who use it for just pro-creation and have found other uses for the creator’s gift.
Sat Sri Akal.[/FONT]
Agreed but within the confines of marriage. If it occurs without marriage then we are no different to animals. If there is no commitment then what does that bond actually mean?
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findingmyway ji comments on your comment from following post.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/37533-sikhism-and-sex-4.html#post156171
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Sikhism enables and very little is promulgated. Let us not turn the clocks backwards. Who wants a follower in Sikhism. We are all leaders and self learners who seek help when they wish.
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</td></tr></tbody></table>How does the above translate into abstinence before or after marriage. Perhaps Harry ji can clarify it for all.
Findingmyway ji, if anything is of personal bother please let me know. I am trying to write as specifically as the comments.
Sat Sri Akal.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/37533-sikhism-and-sex-4.html#post156171
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Are mental anguish and suppression of good feelings of closeness with someone as bad? There is no suggestion in sex that one should not take appropriate precautions and be ready for any unforeseen consequences. Sex by itself is not a disease or we won’t be here. Neither is the suppositions true that Sikhism disagrees with the enjoyment of Sex. We will become a branch of pure Catholicism if we were do such.
Sikhism enables and very little is promulgated. Let us not turn the clocks backwards. Who wants a follower in Sikhism. We are all leaders and self learners who seek help when they wish.
Wow! Why scare people out of sex. It even can be an exercise.
Because we are all different. We can have Karodh/Lobh?Moh/Ahankar but somehow Kaam you have to save for marriage. We definitely think differently that is why creation created us so.
I thought there are studies about the positive health effects of sex including the ability to renewing and sharing one’s love for each other.
This is definitely news to me and I don't know who is teaching what to whom. I am very sorry, but what Kachhera has to do with sex!
It was given for modesty so that when dead Sikhs and Sikhnis were thrown into rivers that modesty still pervaded.[/FONT]
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</td></tr></tbody></table>How does the above translate into abstinence before or after marriage. Perhaps Harry ji can clarify it for all.
No more than thinking about it, acting on it like the other parts of the quintuplet Kaam/Karodh/Lobh/Moh/Ahankar.
Findingmyway ji, if anything is of personal bother please let me know. I am trying to write as specifically as the comments.
Sat Sri Akal.
Ambarsaria ji, the issue is not about sex or no sex in life but whether sex prior to the commitment of marriage is moral so in that context many of your comments above do not apply. STDs are unlikely in a committed monogamous relationship and that is a fact. If there is no commitment and a child comes into the equation then there are many complications which are far more likely to have a negative impact on all concerned. This is not responsible behaviour. Kachhera is not just for modesty but also for moral behaviour. As Tejwant Veerji states, it is vitally important to have our moral compass in the right direction. Merely thinking about it doesn't create babies or cause disease so the ohysical and mental acts are not equivalent in this case! If you are ready to be so intimate with someone, why not commit to them?!
No personal bother but I truly don't understand your viewpoint as demonstrated with my points, many of which have remained unanswered. This goes to anyone who thinks sex before marriage is morally correct and acceptable as a Sikh. It baffles me!
No personal bother but I truly don't understand your viewpoint as demonstrated with my points, many of which have remained unanswered. This goes to anyone who thinks sex before marriage is morally correct and acceptable as a Sikh. It baffles me!
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