Sikhism And Sex

[Ambarsaria]

findingmyway ji I cannot define morals for others. They have to do so through their understanding. That is how I am.

So I have no answer to your above post which starts with,

Ambarsaria ji, the issue is not about sex or no sex in life but whether sex prior to the commitment of marriage is moral

I assume ever since mankind started, the institution of marriage or the morals surrounding it have lived. It is also my understanding that going back in time there was more extra-marital sexual activity.

There was the same creator and same creation. Just because some dust became 7 billion people now makes no difference to the consonance that always existed and always will and the creator. That is Sikhism to me. Our Guru ji help us understand that and develop ability to decide, pick and act.

Sorry, but we don't agree here and I will not keep going back and forth with yourself till I have something new to comment on or add here.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Ambarsaria ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

My comments for consideration below. Let me know if I should correct or amend the post sometimes the tones can be wrong and I have been guilty of that.

We are all here to interact and at times our emotions take the better of us. We are all guilty of that but it is part of the learning process. So, nothing to worry about it.

Tejwant Singh ji I hear you very clearly but it is spn policy to accept the Sikh Reht Maryada as it exists and not how we want it to be. Of course there are ways of making suggestions but doing so in every thread will be considered not complying with TOS at spn. I for sure have few suggestions too on Sikh Reht Maryada. I hope you paid notice to some of the underlying I used in my quoting of SRM. For example the bridegroom can be offered a bangle and sweets.peacesign

I do not think if the Adminstrators mind if you suggest something that should be mended in SRM. In my view, the readers are reminded of SRM by the Administrators so we do not make rules out of the blue which may be anti Gurmat.

You write:

So question posed needs to be focused as posted by Learner55 ji,

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My response to the above:The question posted by Learner55 can only have any relevance and significance provided he understands the foundation of morality laid by our Gurus in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. He must remind himself that one is not born a Sikh but becomes one. If he is born a Sikh but does not practice Sikhi as per the moral values of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji our only Guru, then he is free to do anything because Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji means nothing to him but an idol worshipping. I hope I am wrong.

Your response:Why are we such harsh with others while we are perhaps as guilty in making mistakes in our execution of Sikhism. I point no fingers but posts here attest to the fact that even Sikhs make mistakes but that is all these are.

Ambarsaria ji. Now you are doing nothing but playing Dr. Ruth (I have no idea if you have someone like that in Canada or in The UK, Please Google her if you do not know who she is. BTW, she is a famous sexologist in the US with a sexy accent:redturban. To be honest, I have no idea what your point is above. Ofcourse Sikhs make mistakes, hence the name Sikh. However, pre-marital sex is not a mistake but a deliberate action of immorality if one follows the teachings of Gurbani. In my view, the question by Learner 55 has nothing to do with Sikhi values but his own desire to look like a Sikh and behave on the contrary to its core values. You and I know how easy it is to look like one.

Is it huge mistake to have protected pre-marital sex between consenting adults, I don’t think so

From Sikhi viewpoint, I am afraid it is. But outside Sikhi,who cares? Let me ask you a blunt question. Would you encourage your own daughter or sister who are single to do this in the name of Sikhi?
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My post:
Ambarsaria ji, I am afraid, you are contradicting yourself in your above post. You are right about "Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in the concept of a Guru , teacher and wisdom". So, the question arises what kind of wisdom does our Guru teaches us? And, I am sure you are aware that the first and foremost is to cultivate the highest possible moral compass and live by it.

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Your response:
Tejwant Singh ji thanks for your comment. In absolute sense you are right but in relative sense you are not. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and our Guru ji’s knew that no one can be perfect. Mistakes and transgressions are part of life. At worst pre-marital sex is a transgression, it is not end of the world in terms corrupting the person. Remembering mind before matter, the thread starter has already transgressed in his mind to think of sex per the strictest of definitions if one were to impose this logic. Let us see how it allows us to provide help to SIkhs who seek such help while 99.999+% would not do so.

Ambarsaria ji, no one is talking about mistakes which are part and parcel of life. Of course no one is perfect but that is not the point here. What do you understand by the word "Transgression"? Could you please share with us if you see it differently than what the dictionary states?

[FONT=arial,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]trans·gres·sion[/SIZE][/FONT] (tr

ns-gr

sh

n, tr

nz-) [SIZE=-2]KEY[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]NOUN:[/SIZE]

1. A violation of a law, command, or duty: "The same transgressions should be visited with equal severity on both man and woman" (Elizabeth Cady Stanton). See Synonyms at breach.
2. The exceeding of due bounds or limits.

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/transgression

Is breaking of a moral law that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji teaches us dandy with you? Please do not take this as an offence. I am just trying to understand your thought process in this case.

<table width="" border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> My post:
So, it is not a question of premarital sex but our moral compass also teaches us how to avoid adultery and rapes and do good. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Your response:
Of course it is a question of pre-marital sex as that is what the poster asked. He did not ask for moral compass as no one addressed how he linked “marital sex” to other anti-Sikh and bad behaviors and most have just talked about sex, sin and disease.

I beg to differ with you. Learner55 did ask a moral question. Read his question again. He said that intoxicants are forbidden but nothing is said about pre-marital sex. He wants to have fun with pre-marital sex in the name of Sikhi. No one is stopping Learner55 to have fun. Learner can have as much fun as much he wants but Sikhi has nothing to do with it. Sikhi has no such slogan based on pre-marital sex and Ambarasaria ji, I am no one nor in any position to tell you all this. Deep down you know all this.

Sex is a beautiful thing between people who care for each other. We are quite different from animals who use it for just pro-creation and have found other uses for the creator’s gift.

Of-course it is. "The Anand Karaj" between the two animals in the guise of mating calls is a divine act.

But, in our Human-Animal kingdom we enjoy this beauty in the confines of our Sikhi moral laws, otherwise, neither you nor I would call our parents as such if they were not married before conceiving us.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Ambarsaria]

Tejwant Singh ji thanks for your post. Couple of comments as follows,

Is it huge mistake to have protected pre-marital sex between consenting adults, I don’t think so From Sikhi viewpoint, I am afraid it is. But outside Sikhi,who cares? Let me ask you a blunt question. Would you encourage your own daughter or sister who are single to do this in the name of Sikhi?

Tejwant Singh ji I believe that we don't dictate our Sikhi or try to interpret other people's Sikhi. Why would anyone want to do such stuff in the name of Sikhi. They do it as they are and if others want to interpret in many different ways, that is not a problem of the doer. Yes it hurts to see a Sikh persona appear to be doing wrong but that has to be tolerated in self respect for all. If someone asks for help, sure. If someone appears to be open to help, of course.

Encourage your sister or daughter is not a question. If they ask sure, I would answer as honestly as I can. I believe that is the only way to do so. You cannot throw a moral code at them and expect them to carry it just because you flagged it. You can also not throw a cultural code at them as the trappings it has for both good and bad.

I am sorry to say that I do not see such moral codes (pre-marital sex, etc.) as the level of direct addressing in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and would love to be made aware even though I am not in a situation to benefit/suffer or be wary of pre-marital sex.

I also feel that we are sending very mixed messages and this was embedded in the thread starter's post by comparison to other vices.

Why suddenly Kaaam/Lust a subset of the five thieves suddenly takes centre stage other than due to cultural heritage. I try to share any understanding I have and have no mission to make people more promiscuous or such. Always trying to learn too.

Do we have a book of moral codes that young people can grasp on to? SRM is the only one I know as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not a stopping book (meaning don't do this or don't do that) but a living book that continually makes you better in-spite of whole life of errors.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: Couple of house keeping items.

1. Pretty familiar with Dr. Ruth.
2. I used the word "transgression" as a deviation from a preferred core path which for me in these matters is balance management and control of Kaam/Krodh/Lobh/Moh/Ahankaar.
3. I sincerely believe that we are on slippery slope when we start creating or interpreting moral codes versus encouraging people to understand Sikhism through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. There is perhaps virtue to reviewing if there is a specific Shabad that deals with this subject like the one for "Fools who wrangle over flesh .... ".

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Ambarsaria ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the response. I have no idea where this interaction is taking us. I just searched "women" and "Sex". The following came up. You can study each Shabad and share the moral compass about the subject according to Sikhi. I am sorry, I can not put all the Shabads here in full but I am just copying and pasting the whole pages.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

<table width="100%" cellspacing="25"><tbody><tr><td>Page 176, Line 2
ਮਾਣੈ ਰੰਗ ਭੋਗ ਬਹੁ ਨਾਰੀ ॥
माणै रंग भोग बहु नारी ॥
Māṇai rang bẖog baho nārī.
he may revel in pleasures, and enjoy many women -
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 179, Line 15
ਚੋਆ ਚੰਦਨੁ ਸੇਜ ਸੁੰਦਰਿ ਨਾਰੀ ॥
चोआ चंदनु सेज सुंदरि नारी ॥
Cẖo▫ā cẖanḏan sej sunḏar nārī.
sandalwood oil, and beautiful women in bed,
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 223, Line 4
ਨਾਰੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਸਬਾਈ ਲੋਇ ॥੩॥
नारी पुरख सबाई लोइ ॥३॥
Nārī purakẖ sabā▫ī lo▫e. ||3||
Among all the women and the men, His Light is shining. ||3||
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 225, Line 19
ਕਾਮੁ ਚਿਤੈ ਕਾਮਣਿ ਹਿਤਕਾਰੀ ॥
कामु चितै कामणि हितकारी ॥
Kām cẖiṯai kāmaṇ hiṯkārī.
The lover of women is obsessed with sex.
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 246, Line 1
ਇਸਤਰੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਾਮਿ ਵਿਆਪੇ ਜੀਉ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਬਿਧਿ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੀ ॥
इसतरी पुरख कामि विआपे जीउ राम नाम की बिधि नही जाणी ॥
Isṯarī purakẖ kām vi▫āpe jī▫o rām nām kī biḏẖ nahī jāṇī.
Men and women are obsessed with sex; they do not know the Way of the Lord's Name.
Guru Amar Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 251, Line 19
ਰਾਚਿ ਰਹੇ ਬਨਿਤਾ ਬਿਨੋਦ ਕੁਸਮ ਰੰਗ ਬਿਖ ਸੋਰ ॥
राचि रहे बनिता बिनोद कुसम रंग बिख सोर ॥
Rācẖ rahe baniṯā binoḏ kusam rang bikẖ sor.
Man remains engrossed in women and playful pleasures; the tumult of his passion is like the dye of the safflower, which fades away all too soon.
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 304, Line 13
ਜੋਰਾ ਦਾ ਆਖਿਆ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਮਾਵਦੇ ਸੇ ਅਪਵਿਤ ਅਮੇਧ ਖਲਾ ॥
जोरा दा आखिआ पुरख कमावदे से अपवित अमेध खला ॥
Jorā ḏā ākẖi▫ā purakẖ kamāvḏe se apviṯ ameḏẖ kẖalā.
Those men who act according to the orders of women are impure, filthy and foolish.
Guru Ram Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 304, Line 13
ਕਾਮਿ ਵਿਆਪੇ ਕੁਸੁਧ ਨਰ ਸੇ ਜੋਰਾ ਪੁਛਿ ਚਲਾ ॥
कामि विआपे कुसुध नर से जोरा पुछि चला ॥
Kām vi▫āpe kusuḏẖ nar se jorā pucẖẖ cẖalā.
Those impure men are engrossed in sexual desire; they consult their women and walk accordingly.
Guru Ram Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 304, Line 14
ਜੋਰਾ ਪੁਰਖ ਸਭਿ ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਇਅਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਖੇਲ ਸਭਿ ਖਿਲਾ ॥
जोरा पुरख सभि आपि उपाइअनु हरि खेल सभि खिला ॥
Jorā purakẖ sabẖ āp upā▫i▫an har kẖel sabẖ kẖilā.
He Himself created all women and men; the Lord Himself plays every play.
Guru Ram Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 417, Line 10
ਚਉਕੇ ਵਿਣੁ ਹਿੰਦਵਾਣੀਆ ਕਿਉ ਟਿਕੇ ਕਢਹਿ ਨਾਇ ॥
चउके विणु हिंदवाणीआ किउ टिके कढहि नाइ ॥
Cẖa▫uke viṇ hinḏvāṇī▫ā ki▫o tike kadẖėh nā▫e.
Without their sacred squares, how shall the Hindu women bathe and apply the frontal marks to their foreheads?
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 609, Line 9
ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਕਲਤ੍ਰ ਲੋਕ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਬਨਿਤਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਸਨਬੰਧੇਹੀ ॥
पुत्र कलत्र लोक ग्रिह बनिता माइआ सनबंधेही ॥
Puṯar kalṯar lok garih baniṯā mā▫i▫ā sanbanḏẖehī.
Children, spouses, men and women in one's household, are all bound by Maya.
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 627, Line 19
ਅਨਦ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਰ ਨਾਰੀ ॥
अनद करहि नर नारी ॥
Anaḏ karahi nar nārī.
The men and women celebrate.
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 632, Line 18
ਪਰ ਧਨ ਪਰ ਦਾਰਾ ਸਿਉ ਰਚਿਓ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਸਿਰਾਵੈ ॥੧॥
पर धन पर दारा सिउ रचिओ बिरथा जनमु सिरावै ॥१॥
Par ḏẖan par ḏārā si▫o racẖi▫o birthā janam sirāvai. ||1||
Engrossed in the wealth and women of others, his life passes away uselessly. ||1||
Guru Teg Bahadur - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 654, Line 8
ਬੇਦ ਪੜੇ ਪੜਿ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਮੂਏ ਰੂਪੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਦੇਖਿ ਨਾਰੀ ॥੩॥
बेद पड़े पड़ि पंडित मूए रूपु देखि देखि नारी ॥३॥
Beḏ paṛe paṛ pandiṯ mū▫e rūp ḏekẖ ḏekẖ nārī. ||3||
The Pandits die, reading and reciting the Vedas; women die, gazing at their own beauty. ||3||
Devotee Kabir - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 693, Line 18
ਨਾਚੰਤੀ ਗੋਪੀ ਜੰਨਾ ॥
नाचंती गोपी जंना ॥
Nācẖanṯī gopī jannā.
Women and men both dance.
Devotee Namdev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 722, Line 19
ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨੀਆ ਪੜਹਿ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਕਸਟ ਮਹਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
मुसलमानीआ पड़हि कतेबा कसट महि करहि खुदाइ वे लालो ॥
Musalmānī▫ā paṛėh kaṯebā kasat mėh karahi kẖuḏā▫e ve lālo.
The Muslim women read the Koran, and in their misery, they call upon God, O Lalo.
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 722, Line 19
ਜਾਤਿ ਸਨਾਤੀ ਹੋਰਿ ਹਿਦਵਾਣੀਆ ਏਹਿ ਭੀ ਲੇਖੈ ਲਾਇ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
जाति सनाती होरि हिदवाणीआ एहि भी लेखै लाइ वे लालो ॥
Jāṯ sanāṯī hor hiḏvāṇī▫ā ehi bẖī lekẖai lā▫e ve lālo.
The Hindu women of high social status, and others of lowly status as well, are put into the same category, O Lalo.
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 798, Line 3
ਮੰਗਲੁ ਨਾਰੀ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਆਏ ॥
मंगलु नारी गावहि आए ॥
Mangal nārī gāvahi ā▫e.
The women come and sing the songs of joy.
Guru Amar Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 973, Line 14
ਅਸੁ ਦਾਨ ਗਜ ਦਾਨ ਸਿਹਜਾ ਨਾਰੀ ਭੂਮਿ ਦਾਨ ਐਸੋ ਦਾਨੁ ਨਿਤ ਨਿਤਹਿ ਕੀਜੈ ॥
असु दान गज दान सिहजा नारी भूमि दान ऐसो दानु नित नितहि कीजै ॥
As ḏān gaj ḏān sihjā nārī bẖūm ḏān aiso ḏān niṯ niṯėh kījai.
Someone may give away horses and elephants, or women on their beds, or land; he may give such gifts over and over again.
Devotee Namdev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 983, Line 3
ਨਾਰੀ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਭ ਨਾਰੀ ਸਭੁ ਏਕੋ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
नारी पुरखु पुरखु सभ नारी सभु एको पुरखु मुरारे ॥
Nārī purakẖ purakẖ sabẖ nārī sabẖ eko purakẖ murāre.
Women and men, all the men and women, all came from the One Primal Lord God.
Guru Ram Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 1164, Line 15
ਕਾਮੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਾਮਨੀ ਪਿਆਰੀ ॥
कामी पुरख कामनी पिआरी ॥
Kāmī purakẖ kāmnī pi▫ārī.
and the sexually promiscuous man who loves women and sex,
Devotee Namdev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 1243, Line 1
ਰੰਨਾ ਹੋਈਆ ਬੋਧੀਆ ਪੁਰਸ ਹੋਏ ਸਈਆਦ ॥
रंना होईआ बोधीआ पुरस होए सईआद ॥
Rannā ho▫ī▫ā boḏẖī▫ā puras ho▫e sa▫ī▫āḏ.
Women have become advisors, and men have become hunters.
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 1255, Line 1
ਪਰ ਧਨ ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਰਤੁ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਬਿਖੁ ਖਾਈ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
पर धन पर नारी रतु निंदा बिखु खाई दुखु पाइआ ॥
Par ḏẖan par nārī raṯ ninḏā bikẖ kẖā▫ī ḏukẖ pā▫i▫ā.
Caught in slander and attachment to the wealth and women of others, they eat poison and suffer in pain.
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 1290, Line 1
ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਪੁਰਖੈ ਜਾਂ ਨਿਸਿ ਮੇਲਾ ਓਥੈ ਮੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਹੀ ॥
इसत्री पुरखै जां निसि मेला ओथै मंधु कमाही ॥
Isṯarī purkẖai jāʼn nis melā othai manḏẖ kamāhī.
But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh.
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 1362, Line 6
ਪਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਰਾਵਣਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਸੇਈ ਤਾ ਲਾਜੀਅਹਿ ॥
पर त्रिअ रावणि जाहि सेई ता लाजीअहि ॥
Par ṯari▫a rāvaṇ jāhi se▫ī ṯā lājī▫ah.
Those men who go out to enjoy other men's women shall suffer in shame.
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 1387, Line 5
ਪਰ ਧਨ ਪਰ ਅਪਵਾਦ ਨਾਰਿ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਯਹ ਮੀਠੀ ਜੀਅ ਮਾਹਿ ਹਿਤਾਨੀ ॥
पर धन पर अपवाद नारि निंदा यह मीठी जीअ माहि हितानी ॥
Par ḏẖan par apvāḏ nār ninḏā yėh mīṯẖī jī▫a māhi hiṯānī.
The wealth and women of others, arguments and slander, are sweet and dear to my soul.
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 1412, Line 13
ਸਤੀ ਰੰਨੀ ਘਰੇ ਸਿਆਪਾ ਰੋਵਨਿ ਕੂੜੀ ਕੰਮੀ ॥
सती रंनी घरे सिआपा रोवनि कूड़ी कमी ॥
Saṯī rannī gẖare si▫āpā rovan kūṛī kammī.
All the women of his home shout and cry over useless things.
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr></tbody></table>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<table width="100%" cellspacing="25"><tbody><tr><td>Page 13, Line 8
ਕਾਮਿ ਕਰੋਧਿ ਨਗਰੁ ਬਹੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਖੰਡਲ ਖੰਡਾ ਹੇ ॥
कामि करोधि नगरु बहु भरिआ मिलि साधू खंडल खंडा हे ॥
Kām karoḏẖ nagar baho bẖari▫ā mil sāḏẖū kẖandal kẖanda he.
The body-village is filled to overflowing with anger and sexual desire; these were broken into bits when I met with the Holy Saint.
Guru Ram Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 24, Line 16
ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਤਨਿ ਵਸਹਿ ਚੰਡਾਲ ॥
कामु क्रोधु तनि वसहि चंडाल ॥
Kām kroḏẖ ṯan vasėh cẖandāl.
Unfulfilled sexual desire and unresolved anger dwell in my body, like the outcasts who cremate the dead.
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 37, Line 18
ਸੁਣਿ ਸੁਣਿ ਕਾਮ ਗਹੇਲੀਏ ਕਿਆ ਚਲਹਿ ਬਾਹ ਲੁਡਾਇ ॥
सुणि सुणि काम गहेलीए किआ चलहि बाह लुडाइ ॥
Suṇ suṇ kām gahelī▫e ki▫ā cẖalėh bāh ludā▫e.
Listen, listen, O soul-bride: you are overtaken by sexual desire-why do you walk like that, swinging your arms in joy?
Guru Amar Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 43, Line 8
ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾਮਿ ਵਿਆਪਿਆ ਸਮਝੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਗਾਵਾਰੁ ॥
माइआ कामि विआपिआ समझै नाही गावारु ॥
Mā▫i▫ā kām vi▫āpi▫ā samjẖai nāhī gāvār.
Engrossed in Maya and sexual desire, the fool does not understand.
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 50, Line 7
ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਮਦਿ ਬਿਆਪਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੋਨੀ ਪਾਇ ॥੨॥
काम क्रोध मदि बिआपिआ फिरि फिरि जोनी पाइ ॥२॥
Kām kroḏẖ maḏ bi▫āpi▫ā fir fir jonī pā▫e. ||2||
Engrossed in the intoxication of sexual desire and anger, people wander through reincarnation over and over again. ||2||
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 51, Line 9
ਕਾਮਿ ਕ੍ਰੋਧਿ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ਮਾਤੇ ਵਿਆਪਿਆ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥
कामि क्रोधि अहंकारि माते विआपिआ संसारु ॥
Kām kroḏẖ ahaʼnkār māṯe vi▫āpi▫ā sansār.
The world is drunk, engrossed in sexual desire, anger and egotism.
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 58, Line 7
ਸਬਦਿ ਰਤੇ ਸੇ ਨਿਰਮਲੇ ਤਜਿ ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ॥
सबदि रते से निरमले तजि काम क्रोधु अहंकारु ॥
Sabaḏ raṯe se nirmale ṯaj kām kroḏẖ ahaʼnkār.
Those who are attuned to the Shabad are spotless and pure; they renounce sexual desire, anger, selfishness and conceit.
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 70, Line 12
ਕਾਮਿ ਕਰੋਧਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਵਸਿ ਕੀਆ ਕਿਰਪਨ ਲੋਭਿ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥
कामि करोधि मोहि वसि कीआ किरपन लोभि पिआरु ॥
Kām karoḏẖ mohi vas kī▫ā kirpan lobẖ pi▫ār.
When you are under the power of sexual desire, anger and worldly attachment, or a greedy miser in love with your wealth;
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 75, Line 16
ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਕਾਮਿ ਵਿਆਪਿਆ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਅੰਧੁਲੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਚਿਤਿ ॥
अहिनिसि कामि विआपिआ वणजारिआ मित्रा अंधुले नामु न चिति ॥
Ahinis kām vi▫āpi▫ā vaṇjāri▫ā miṯrā anḏẖule nām na cẖiṯ.
Day and night, you are engrossed in sexual desire, O my merchant friend, and your consciousness is blind to the Naam.
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 81, Line 12
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਦਇਆਲ ਕਿਰਪਾਲ ਭੇਟਤ ਹਰੇ ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਮਾਰਿਆ ॥
सतिगुर दइआल किरपाल भेटत हरे कामु क्रोधु लोभु मारिआ ॥
Saṯgur ḏa▫i▫āl kirpāl bẖetaṯ hare kām kroḏẖ lobẖ māri▫ā.
Through the Kind and Compassionate True Guru, I have met the Lord; I have conquered sexual desire, anger and greed.
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 93, Line 7
ਉਛਲਿਆ ਕਾਮੁ ਕਾਲ ਮਤਿ ਲਾਗੀ ਤਉ ਆਨਿ ਸਕਤਿ ਗਲਿ ਬਾਂਧਿਆ ॥੨॥
उछलिआ कामु काल मति लागी तउ आनि सकति गलि बांधिआ ॥२॥
Ucẖẖli▫ā kām kāl maṯ lāgī ṯa▫o ān sakaṯ gal bāʼnḏẖi▫ā. ||2||
You are overflowing with sexual desire, and your intellect is stained with darkness; you are held in the grip of Shakti's power. ||2||
Devotee Baini - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 93, Line 9
ਉਨਮਤ ਕਾਮਿ ਮਹਾ ਬਿਖੁ ਭੂਲੈ ਪਾਪੁ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਿਆ ॥
उनमत कामि महा बिखु भूलै पापु पुंनु न पछानिआ ॥
Unmaṯ kām mahā bikẖ bẖūlai pāp punn na pacẖẖāni▫ā.
Drunk with sexual desire and other great sins, you go astray, and do not distinguish between vice and virtue.
Devotee Baini - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 93, Line 10
ਅਵਰ ਮਰਤ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਨੁ ਤੋਲੇ ਤਉ ਭਗ ਮੁਖਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਵਿਗੋਇਆ ॥੩॥
अवर मरत माइआ मनु तोले तउ भग मुखि जनमु विगोइआ ॥३॥
Avar maraṯ mā▫i▫ā man ṯole ṯa▫o bẖag mukẖ janam vigo▫i▫ā. ||3||
When others die, you measure your own wealth in your mind; you waste your life in the pleasures of the mouth and sexual organs. ||3||
Devotee Baini - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 93, Line 11
ਲੋਚਨ ਸ੍ਰਮਹਿ ਬੁਧਿ ਬਲ ਨਾਠੀ ਤਾ ਕਾਮੁ ਪਵਸਿ ਮਾਧਾਣੀ ॥
लोचन स्रमहि बुधि बल नाठी ता कामु पवसि माधाणी ॥
Locẖan sarmėh buḏẖ bal nāṯẖī ṯā kām pavas māḏẖāṇī.
Your eyes water, and your intellect and strength have left you; but still, your sexual desire churns and drives you on.
Devotee Baini - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 108, Line 7
ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਕਿਲਬਿਖ ਗੁਰਿ ਕਾਟੇ ਪੂਰਨ ਹੋਈ ਆਸਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥
कामु क्रोधु किलबिख गुरि काटे पूरन होई आसा जीउ ॥३॥
Kām kroḏẖ kilbikẖ gur kāte pūran ho▫ī āsā jī▫o. ||3||
The Guru has cut out the sinful mistakes of sexual desire and anger, and my hopes have been fulfilled. ||3||
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 108, Line 18
ਹਉ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਸੰਤਨ ਤੇਰੇ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਪੀਠਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥
हउ बलिहारी संतन तेरे जिनि कामु क्रोधु लोभु पीठा जीउ ॥३॥
Ha▫o balihārī sanṯan ṯere jin kām kroḏẖ lobẖ pīṯẖā jī▫o. ||3||
I am a sacrifice to Your Saints, who have crushed their sexual desire, anger and greed. ||3||
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 122, Line 4
ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਵਸਿ ਸਚ ਸੰਜਮਿ ਜੁਗਤਾ ॥
इंद्री वसि सच संजमि जुगता ॥
Inḏrī vas sacẖ sanjam jugṯā.
They control their sexual desires, and their lifestyle is the self-discipline of Truth.
Guru Amar Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 137, Line 18
ਛਿਵੈ ਕਾਮੁ ਨ ਪੁਛੈ ਜਾਤਿ ॥
छिवै कामु न पुछै जाति ॥
Cẖẖivai kām na pucẖẖai jāṯ.
sixth, in his sexual desire, he does not respect social customs.
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 141, Line 13
ਪਰਹਰਿ ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਝੂਠੁ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਤਜਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ਚੁਕਾਵੈ ॥
परहरि काम क्रोधु झूठु निंदा तजि माइआ अहंकारु चुकावै ॥
Parhar kām kroḏẖ jẖūṯẖ ninḏā ṯaj mā▫i▫ā ahaʼnkār cẖukẖāvai.
Renounce sexual desire, anger, falsehood and slander; forsake Maya and eliminate egotistical pride.
Guru Ram Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 141, Line 14
ਤਜਿ ਕਾਮੁ ਕਾਮਿਨੀ ਮੋਹੁ ਤਜੈ ਤਾ ਅੰਜਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
तजि कामु कामिनी मोहु तजै ता अंजन माहि निरंजनु पावै ॥
Ŧaj kām kāminī moh ṯajai ṯā anjan māhi niranjan pāvai.
Renounce sexual desire and promiscuity, and give up emotional attachment. Only then shall you obtain the Immaculate Lord amidst the darkness of the world.
Guru Ram Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 145, Line 16
ਚਲਣ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣਨੀ ਕਾਮੁ ਕਰੋਧੁ ਵਿਸੁ ਵਧਾਇਆ ॥
चलण सार न जाणनी कामु करोधु विसु वधाइआ ॥
Cẖalaṇ sār na jāṇnī kām karoḏẖ vis vaḏẖā▫i▫ā.
They do not recognize the ultimate reality, that we all must go; they continue to cultivate the poisons of sexual desire and anger.
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 153, Line 3
ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਹਿ ਚੀਤੁ ॥
कामु क्रोधु माइआ महि चीतु ॥
Kām kroḏẖ mā▫i▫ā mėh cẖīṯ.
The conscious mind is engrossed in sexual desire, anger and Maya.
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 153, Line 5
ਜਿਹਵਾ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਏਕੁ ਸੁਆਉ ॥
जिहवा इंद्री एकु सुआउ ॥
Jihvā inḏrī ek su▫ā▫o.
The tongue and the sex organs each seek to taste.
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 171, Line 6
ਕਾਮਿ ਕਰੋਧਿ ਨਗਰੁ ਬਹੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਖੰਡਲ ਖੰਡਾ ਹੇ ॥
कामि करोधि नगरु बहु भरिआ मिलि साधू खंडल खंडा हे ॥
Kām karoḏẖ nagar baho bẖari▫ā mil sāḏẖū kẖandal kẖanda he.
The body-village is filled to overflowing with sexual desire and anger, which were broken into bits when I met with the Holy Saint.
Guru Ram Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 178, Line 13
ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਲਪਟਿਓ ਅਸਨੇਹ ॥
काम क्रोध लपटिओ असनेह ॥
Kām kroḏẖ lapti▫o asneh.
They are mired in sexual desire, anger and attachment;
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 210, Line 6
ਕਾਮਿ ਕ੍ਰੋਧਿ ਲੋਭਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਮਨੁ ਲੀਨੋ ਨਿਰਗੁਣ ਕੇ ਦਾਤਾਰੇ ॥
कामि क्रोधि लोभि मोहि मनु लीनो निरगुण के दातारे ॥
Kām kroḏẖ lobẖ mohi man līno nirguṇ ke ḏāṯāre.
My mind is engrossed in sexual desire, anger, greed and attachment, O Giver to the unworthy.
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 219, Line 5
ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਮੋਹ ਬਸਿ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਹਰਿ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਬਿਸਰਾਈ ॥
काम क्रोध मोह बसि प्रानी हरि मूरति बिसराई ॥
Kām kroḏẖ moh bas parānī har mūraṯ bisrā▫ī.
The mortal beings are held in the power of sexual desire, anger and emotional attachment; they have forgotten the Lord, the Immortal Form.
Guru Teg Bahadur - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 222, Line 4
ਕਾਮਿ ਬਿਰੂਧਉ ਰਹੈ ਨ ਠਾਇ ॥
कामि बिरूधउ रहै न ठाइ ॥
Kām birūḏẖa▫o rahai na ṯẖā▫e.
Engrossed in sexual desire, it does not remain steady.
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 223, Line 2
ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਬਿਨਾਸੁ ॥੧॥
काम क्रोध अहंकार बिनासु ॥१॥
Kām kroḏẖ ahaʼnkār binās. ||1||
They are destroyed by sexual desire, anger and egotism. ||1||
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 224, Line 4
ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਬਿਖੁ ਭੂਖ ਪਿਆਸਾ ॥
काम क्रोध बिखु भूख पिआसा ॥
Kām karoḏẖ bikẖ bẖūkẖ pi▫āsā.
by sexual desire, anger, corruption, hunger and thirst.
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr></tbody></table>
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[Kanwaljit.Singh]

It is easy to find shabads with correlated words in translations. But it takes time to understand each Shabad and reference of words.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Tejwant Singh ji thanks for the Shabad word search post. I don't think this is the most important topic on my mind right now.

I have something else on my mind that I am studying in Gurbani and will share if appropriate and suitable. Nothing to do with sex :sippingcoffeemunda:
Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Harry Haller]

What wonderful reading, so many points of view, in my personal opinion, everyone is correct,

Sikhism, again in my view, is not a hard and fast rule book of things you should and should not do, I think we will find the answer in the centre.

There is one line of thought that believes that certain things are bad in excess, and that one thing will lead to another, and before you know it, we are responsible for blessing young people having sex outside of marriage

There is another line of thought that believes we are all intelligent human beings and WE are responsible for our decisions, not society, it is the balance between a nanny state and anarchy. Both are clearly not desirable for the continued development of a person, the nanny state brings control through fear and guilt, anarchy puts too much on an individual, rather like a lucid dream, some people need fear and guilt, some need others to make the decision for them, some will always make the right decision regardless of personal feelings, some will submit themselves to their thoughts without even thinking, so we are all of us different, and we all approach life in different ways.

Now, lets us take religion out of this for a moment, as, having read Gyanijis post, and Ambersariaji's post, I would take the gluttony to be the issue, not the sex.

Let us take a look at the question again, and I am really sorry Amanji, I promise I will learn how to do this properly very soon,

WJKK WJKF,

I am a 22 year old sardar, with a dari and phug. I have never drank or smoked. The reason I do not engage in these things, is because they are harmful to the user and to others.


However, my question is about pre-marital sex. I have not engaged in it, however I do not see the problem in doing so if it is a) done smartly/safely b) does not become an obsession.


WHY it is considered "wrong" ? Alcohol, drugs, and treating others poorly - all are against Sikhi, because they do do harm to either the user or others.

But what does sex do?


Thank you.

Note this young man does not say, I do not drink or do drugs or cut my hair because I am forbidden by sikhi, he says he does not do it because they harm the user or others, very well done for getting the message of sikhi, not to blindly follow without understanding, but to take actions because you have completely understood the message, being in consonance, so I would take it that this is quite an intelligent young man, who wants to know why sex is bad, who it affects, why should he not do it

I do not think the question actually has anything to do with sikhi, it is a young man following the ideals of sikhi asking whether premarital sex harms the user or others, if you are in a loving relationship with someone, you care for each other, your feelings are pure, and forgetting the social problems of young sikhs having sex for a moment, then there is nothing in my view wrong with that, if however you wish to go clubbing, internet dating, whoring, and end up in bed with someone you hardly know, and have no feelings for, other than basic animal lust, then , yes you can harm yourself and others, either through an STD, emotionally, unwanted pregnancy, or feelings of shame

The social factors bring into play many many more issues, the way your parents would feel, how it could affect your future marriage prospects, how it could affect not only your family but your own standing in the community, it is for you to make an informed decision to as to what path you wish to proceed down, what seeds you wish to plant, whether those seeds are being true to you, and to which part of you, you wish to push forward as the true you, if 'you' is a man in balance who feels he can have sex before marriage and still feel completely sikhi, no problem, if 'you' is a man who feels he would be more in consonance and more true to himself by waiting, no problem, I think this is a very individual issue, clearly by the many different views on the subject.

However, we must be very careful of using fear and guilt as control, let us make the facts clear and hope the young make the correct decisions that will subject them neither to a life of Gluttony, nor a life of abstinence and frustration

 

[Chinu]

WJKK WJKF,

I am a 22 year old sardar, with a dari and phug. I have never drank or smoked. The reason I do not engage in these things, is because they are harmful to the user and to others.

So.. you know this. 0

However, my question is about pre-marital sex. I have not engaged in it, however I do not see the problem in doing so if it is a) done smartly/safely b) does not become an obsession.
WHY it is considered "wrong" ? Alcohol, drugs, and treating others poorly - all are against Sikhi, because they do do harm to either the user or others.

How can you say that sex is not harmful ?
Not only pre-marital sex, but sex of any kind is harmful for spiritual devlopment and Age factor.

But what does sex do?

Really... If you are intrested in your own spiritual progress, there are many books written on it, even in "GGS" you can see...

But if you are more intrested in sex than your spiritual progress -- than it is useless to talk on this topic...

One can only understand when he/she really want's to understand,
For Example: There are number of people in this world who drink Alcohal, take Drugs, they even know that this is harmul for us, but even than, they do not want to listen anybody going against it -- and that because they are more intrested in Alcohal and drugs than their health.

Honestly... are you intrested in spiritual progress ? ---- ask your own Mind.0
If not... till than Sex is like God for you, your God is Sex... So how can you listen anybody going againt it.

"Satshriakal"

 

[Harry Haller]

Chinuji,

The key here is moderation, that is what makes us householders and philosophers, an aversion to marital sex is just as bad as an attatchment to marital sex, When I think of a perfect Sikh man, I think of my father, he is as spirtual as he is wordly, he lives this life and enjoys it, as he basks in Naam and enjoys that, Sikhs were never meant to sit on mountains on lionskins, with a healthy covering of ash, they were meant to interact, to live, to learn and to spread the message through interaction with Creation

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Agreed but within the confines of marriage. If it occurs without marriage then we are no different to animals. If there is no commitment then what does that bond actually mean?

Way Ji Your reply implies that perhaps a fifith of the world are animals which is a bit harsh,(maybe it was like one of my off the cuff remarks.)
It does not sound immoral to me as many poeple are committed to eachother,live together but don't marry for a while ,and others marry and are seemingly not committed and get divorced.The problem is that India is sexually repressed and that creates a narrow view of morality.You can't really claim that it is immoral behaviour it is just amoral behaviour.

 

[Harry Haller]

spji,

What is a marriage?

Marriage (or wedlock) is a social union or legal contract between people that creates kinship. It is an institution in which interpersonal relationships, usually intimate and sexual, are acknowledged in a variety of ways, depending on the culture or subculture in which it is found. Such a union, often formalized via a wedding ceremony, may also be called matrimony.

Although I refer to my wife and my marriage, neither is strictly true, she is my wife because I am commited to her and we are in a social union, my marriage took place the day we swore our love for each other and promised to be faithful to each other in mind and body, but that day took place on Brighton seafront 7 years ago, and the only witnesses were 3 seagulls and a hermit crab, one day I hope to have Anand Karaj, but till then, my understanding of the word marriage is the union I have with my wife

I do not believe in ritual, Anand Karaj , to me has to be understood and embraced by us both before we could consider aspiring to those heights, but I digress

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Harry that is my point and it's relevant to distinguish committed relationships are not always what we call marriages.
I think that Way ji is pointing out the risks associated with promiscuity as premarital sex within a relationship (with one partner) would not usually lead to increased risk of STD's.

 

[Chinu]

Chinuji,

The key here is moderation, that is what makes us householders and philosophers, an aversion to marital sex is just as bad as an attatchment to marital sex, When I think of a perfect Sikh man, I think of my father, he is as spirtual as he is wordly, he lives this life and enjoys it, as he basks in Naam and enjoys that, Sikhs were never meant to sit on mountains on lionskins, with a healthy covering of ash, they were meant to interact, to live, to learn and to spread the message through interaction with Creation

Harry ji... when i said ? That to get control over lust, one should escape into himalayas and all that
Yes! "Moderation" itself is more than tuff exersise, But.. these days marital sex is being used as a daily playground of enjoying senseual pleasures,

Like... from now one has got the license to play daily in this playground.

Is this the work of Sikh? tell me...

"Satshriakal"

 

[Harry Haller]

Harry ji... when i said ? That to get control over lust, one should escape into himalayas and all that
Yes! "Moderation" itself is more than tuff exersise, But.. these days marital sex is being used as a daily playground of enjoying senseual pleasures,

Like... from now one has got the license to play daily in this playground.

Is this the work of Sikh? tell me...

"Satshriakal"

Chinuji

What goes on between a married sardar and his wife in the bedroom is, in my humble view, no concern to the Creator

I may be in breach by not having had Anand Karaj, but then that is between me and Creator

As for marital sex being used for enjoying sensual pleasures, this is exactly what I mean by mountains, there is nothing wrong with sex within marriage/union, to see marital sex as wrong is the sort of attitude that stop sikhs being householders, and stops sikhs being part of the world going on around them, enjoy sex within marriage, but do not become addicted to it, or let it become the be all and end all,

Your attitude scares and worries me brother

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Yes! "Moderation" itself is more than tuff exersise, But.. these days marital sex is being used as a daily playground of enjoying sensual pleasures,

If you think about the one who has engaged in premarital relations, he still has to control himself to a degree but one who abstains totally does not moderate himself ,as he just stays away from it altogether ,some may just fear losing their fragile grip on virtue.

I think we were meant to experience pleasure but still moderate ourselves and understand that these are lower pleasures and you are correct in saying moderation is tough.I too have met base individuals who take marriage just to be a free pass to the pleasure park.

 

[Chinu]

Your attitude scares and worries me brother

0
Harry ji... for how long do you sit on meditation/simran daily?

"Satshriakal"

 

[Harry Haller]

spji, I would say personally 'different pleasures' rather than 'lower'

Chinuji, I never do either meditation or simran, although I think of ways to apply SGGS to my daily life constantly

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

I never do either meditation or simran, although I think of ways to apply Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to my daily life constantly<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Veer ji Meditation and Simran are one if you contemplate what to do by applying our Guru's word then that is sort of Medi-action or Simraction!
That is the Sikh way and I think it was Lord Krishna said the mind is the performer of action so there might not be much difference in sitting and doing.

 

[Chinu]

Chinuji, I never do either meditation or simran,

That's why...

although I think of ways to apply Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to my daily life constantly

Which one is more important from these two in the life of sikh ?

• Simran.
• To apply GGS into daily life.

I think this can be another good topic on this board, Right ? 0
Well my answer is: By applying GGS into daily life we can know that who is called as true sikh...

So just read the stanza: "Gur satgur kaa jo sikh akahee................"

"Satshriakal"

 

[Harry Haller]

done brother, see you there