So We Sikhs Want A Homeland?

[kds1980]

Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

Just curious...

Countries like China and Thailand have high Buddhist populations, but neither could be called a Buddhist homeland. Tibet perhaps???


Just wondering what a Buddhist would consider to be their homeland???

And whether Buddhists lament the lack of a clear place to call their own?

Or maybe they think there are more important things in their lives??

Don't know the answers......

May I ask you how Thailand is not a budhist?
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Thailand set to make Buddhism the state religion

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/24/world/asia/24iht-thai.1.5852389.html
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Sri Lanka is also Budhist ,so Budhists have there countries.If I am not wrong when Talibans were blowing bamiyan budha then many bushist countries including sri lanka offered them that they will relocate the statue but Talibans did not accept that offer.Imagine if tommorrow some fanatics will take over Pakistan and say they are pulling down sikh Gurdwara's then will their be any country which will offer Gurdwara's to be relocated?

 

[Seeker9]

Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

May I ask you how Thailand is not a budhist?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thailand set to make Buddhism the state religion

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/24/world/asia/24iht-thai.1.5852389.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sri Lanka is also Budhist ,so Budhists have there countries.If I am not wrong when Talibans were blowing bamiyan budha then many bushist countries including sri lanka offered them that they will relocate the statue but Talibans did not accept that offer.Imagine if tommorrow some fanatics will take over Pakistan and say they are pulling down sikh Gurdwara's then will their be any country which will offer Gurdwara's to be relocated?

Dear Kanwardeep Ji

I said:

Countries like China and Thailand have high Buddhist populations, but neither could be called a Buddhist homeland.

If you think Buddhists would regard Thailand and Sri Lanka as their homeland than that is fine. I would disagree though

Agree that declaring a state religion is significant:redturban:

 

[Seeker9]

Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

Just to develop my thinking further...if there was one place on Earth that would spring to mind as a logical location for a Buddhist homeland, I would go for the one place most closely associated with the birth of Buddha....i.e Nepal....yet clearly that is not a Buddhist homeland...in fact there are more Hindus in Nepal than there are Buddhists

 

[badshah]

Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

The last known SIkhs were those surviving WW2

After that the people of the religion went under assimulation and the weakening of the religion since the martial side become symbolic

If a kirpan has no use in 2010 then it could be a requirement of taking amrit that you are qualified in a martial art then

This way the use of a kirpan evolves into the use of your fist and therefore Sikhism remains martial and spirtual

You cannot defend the weak or let alone defend yourself if you do not undertake any martial training?

If you are a police officer that wears a gun and then tomorrow guns are banned, how would you feel if you were then asked to wear a toy water pistol?

So I am not saying that the kirpan should be removed but even a symbolic one around your neck or the one in your kanga is good enough as long as you take some sort of martial training, boxing, karate mma etc etc in its replacement

About the Sikh homeland point - well we had a Sikh homeland and then after the British we lost it

Another poster in this thread said, maybe in 100 years no one wears a turban then that is greater eveidence that we do not need a Sikh homeland becuase if we diverge from Sikh principles then you are no longer fighting for a Sikh homeland. A sikh homeland is a place to be a sikh not open up pubs and clubs, whisky partying etc etc

TBH having the Harmindr Sahib denotes out homeland without offically having one and this is more than enough

 

[spnadmin]

Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

Just to develop my thinking further...if there was one place on Earth that would spring to mind as a logical location for a Buddhist homeland, I would go for the one place most closely associated with the birth of Buddha....i.e Nepal....yet clearly that is not a Buddhist homeland...in fact there are more Hindus in Nepal than there are Buddhists

Nepal is today for all intents and purposes a Communist country. Formerly a theocracy with the king serving as head of religion and head of state, this is no longer the case.

Not any longer a Hindu nor a Buddhist nation. http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=8244&size=A

 

[spnadmin]

Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

Some unanswered questions for me on the subject of a Sikh homeland are related to the role of religion in government. Theocracy, state religion, not the same thing, pose some concerns in my humble opinion

1. Would you want it to be a theocracy, which is a state governed by a theocracy?

Definition of THEOCRACY: government of a state by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided. An example would be Saudi Arabia.

2. Would you want Sikhism to be the state religion?

A state religion (also called an official religion, established church or state church) is a religious body or creed officially endorsed by the state. (Practically, a state without a state religion is called a secular state.)

3. Would you want this homeland to be secular, but where government is dominated by the religious principles of the cultural group that founded it, or that had been the historical majority? An example would be Israel or Ireland?

For examples of the difficulties now experienced in Israel you can read this blog. Very informative http://religionandstateinisrael.blogspot.com/

 

[Seeker9]

Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

SPNAdmin Ji has asked some good meaty questions

I will think about those carefully but in the meantime I will add some mundane administrative questions to do with how the new homeland would be run ..simple things like currency, justice, imports, exports, funding, healthcare, defence, taxation, international profile, UN Recognition, currency recognition and exchange etc etc etc

I noticed another thread which I haven't had the chance to read yet, but it was called "Poverty in Punjab"

If a homeland was established within Punjab, would it make that sad situation any better? If so, how?

So to summarise in brief:

1) Why is the homeland absolutely necessary?
2) Will it be economically viable and sustainable and will the quality of life for everybody improve compared to what they have now?
3) Will it be of any spiritual benefit and make existing Sikhs into better Sikhs otherwise what is the point?


It is one thing to want a homeland and a place to call your own

It is another matter entirely to establish one on the world scene and keep it going.....

 

[hparmar]

Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

"A sikh homeland is a place to be a sikh not open up pubs and clubs, whisky partying etc etc"

Badshah ji - How would you enforce such a rule? Where do you draw a line bettween what a person can do and not do? If a person can not party or express joy in public then who would want to live in place like that? it will slowly become a country of one..lol j/khttp://www.sikhphilosophy.net/members/badshah.html<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

 

[badshah]

Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Independence_and_first_years

A Jewish homeland was formed because the British could not conclude to a suitable solition for both Muslims and Jews

However in our case during the partition it appears that we were happy to live side by side with Hindus therefore you get no homeland

Even today we live side by side with Hindus and therefore no need for homeland

If Sikhs were thrown in on Pakistans side then for sure there would be to much conflict and would would have to fight for a homeland

If we collectively are not fighting for a homeland then how can you have one?

However if our populations explodes and we all are thirtsy to be SIkhs then the idea if requiring a homeland cannot be ignored.....

If we explode in populaton but we are not that Sikh orientated then you cannot fight for a homeland

 

[badshah]

Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

"A sikh homeland is a place to be a sikh not open up pubs and clubs, whisky partying etc etc"

Badshah ji - How would you enforce such a rule? Where do you draw a line bettween what a person can do and not do? If a person can not party or express joy in public then who would want to live in place like that? it will slowly become a country of one..lol j/k<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Look at Saudi Arabia

BTW - would you spill your blood knowing that you were fighting for people who would just go and open up pubs and clubs?

 

[spnadmin]

Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

"A sikh homeland is a place to be a sikh not open up pubs and clubs, whisky partying etc etc"

Badshah ji - How would you enforce such a rule? Where do you draw a line bettween what a person can do and not do? If a person can not party or express joy in public then who would want to live in place like that? it will slowly become a country of one..lol j/khttp://www.sikhphilosophy.net/members/badshah.html<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

hparmar ji

Your comments are exactly why I asked the questions about religion and government. In the 3 examples I give of theocracy, state religion, and dominant state religion, there would be questions that go far beyond pubs and partying that would be going on. Many things we take for granted today, like a civil marriage, become major constitutional issues taking years to resolve if at all. Please look at that link I posted about problems of religion and state in Israel.

BTW In Saudi Arabia there are no pubs and partying going on involving alcohol in theory. But it does go on in private and on the sneak. Nothing happens to you if you have friends in high places or have not stepped on anyone's toes.

badshah ji

Would this be an important issue to debate when setting up a constitution for a Sikh homeland, in your opinion?

BTW - would you spill your blood knowing that you were fighting for people who would just go and open up pubs and clubs?

 

[Seeker9]

Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

Look at Saudi Arabia

BTW - would you spill your blood knowing that you were fighting for people who would just go and open up pubs and clubs?

Dear Badshah JI

I trust your blood spilling and fighting references are 21st century metaphors for a political process....(he typed nervously.......)
swordfight

 

[spnadmin]

Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

Dear Badshah JI

I trust your blood spilling and fighting references are 21st century metaphors for a political process....(he typed nervously.......)
swordfight

Thanks because that is the part of the thread that I am honestly not getting at all. So that makes 2 of us.

seeker9 ji

My decision to ask questions about the relationship between religion and state rather than the nitty gritty questions of government functions and viability was deliberate.

Your questions are asked frequently and are answered with a fair amount of passion. The end of the conversation kicks in with the reply "this can be worked out later."

I asked the questions about religion because they are rarely asked and even less often answered. There is a blithe assumption that "there is one Sikhi" and so the questions about religion and state will answer themselves. But that is a long-shot imho. I explained a few posts back why there is more than one Sikhi. Even agreement on the basics of Sikhi will not answer my questions.

When a homeland is defined by the word "Sikh" then religion does become important to knowing what the "homeland' is supposed to be. It may even be an obstacle. There is more to consider than cultural and historical identity.

 

[badshah]

Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

Dear Badshah JI

I trust your blood spilling and fighting references are 21st century metaphors for a political process....(he typed nervously.......)
swordfight

Depends on which oath you take..... if you go through political process then why would anyone give up their land (Hindustan) for Sikhs?

If you go the fighting route then you will have to take on the Indian army..... you would have to revive every SIkh to martial levels like a 100,000 strong proper army. 84 Bhindranwale tried it with waht 100 - 300 people..... maybe he should have tried Guerilla fighting as that would have been more suitable for such a small number aginst a large Indian army - but more to the point people were not all united and martial in status thats why it did not result in a Sikh homeland

There is one thing that is clear, we are not united or we collectively do not have it as our number 1 interest to have a homeland.

its not as if we are being persecuted, or have to take up arms to fight for our faith

Maybe we should channel our efforts on Sikh recognition where there are hardly any SIkhs like USA for example - they think we are Arabs. Achieving this would be much better since then the World would become our homeland rather than just Punjab

 

[hparmar]

Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

Someone earlier said how the jews got a homeland after ww1 and ww2 cause of sympathy.
Please tell me of any race or religion in history except the jews ever getting anything out of sympathy.
You seriously think having influence and money in countries like the US and UK weren't the factor? a race that was getting eraticated all of a suddden gets a homeland. Call me cynical but i dont think the world is so white and black.
either way i just think haveing a homeland without resolving current interanl issues is just asking for more trouble. Its easy to be cheerleaders and say yes we want our own homeland... its another thing to rationaly think of the complexaty of such a task.. I am truly injoying this conversation.

 

[badshah]

Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

There is more to consider than cultural and historical identity.

Like?

 

[badshah]

Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

Thanks because that is the part of the thread that I am honestly not getting at all. So that makes 2 of us.

seeker9 ji

My decision to ask questions about the relationship between religion and state rather than the nitty gritty questions of government functions and viability was deliberate.

Your questions are asked frequently and are answered with a fair amount of passion. The end of the conversation kicks in with the reply "this can be worked out later."

I asked the questions about religion because they are rarely asked and even less often answered. There is a blithe assumption that "there is one Sikhi" and so the questions about religion and state will answer themselves. But that is a long-shot imho. I explained a few posts back why there is more than one Sikhi. Even agreement on the basics of Sikhi will not answer my questions.

When a homeland is defined by the word "Sikh" then religion can't be treated as if it is not an important and practical obstacle to knowing what the "homeland' is supposed to be. There is more to consider than cultural and historical identity.

Here, this is what Sikh homeland looks like - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh_Empire

 

[Seeker9]

Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

Dear SPNAdmin Ji

You are right as usual!

Your meaty questions fall into the "opening a can of worms" category which I will think about before composing a reply

I am glad you asked because they are pretty fundamental and crucial if we are looking at a scenario where a group associated with a particular religion wants to establish an independent homeland using the religion as a basis for constitution

We have seen some unpleasant examples of what can happen when a group of people go down this route and force their system on anyone who has the misfortune to be within their borders.

Thankfully, Sikhism is not steeped in any archaic dogma that would give rise to such a thing but the separation of religion and state is a key issue. What would the legal system be based on?

Returning to the earlier comment about pubs and clubs, if we were to follow the scriptures to the letter and the law was the same, then consumption of alcohol would be banned wouldn't it and be a punishable offence???

It's very messy.......but glad you asked!!!

winkingmunda

 

[hparmar]

Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

Look at Saudi Arabia

BTW - would you spill your blood knowing that you were fighting for people who would just go and open up pubs and clubs?

I would not spill my blood for a homeland or any sort. I would spill my blood to protect my people from aggregation and nothing more.

 

[badshah]

Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

Dear SPNAdmin Ji

You are right as usual!

Your meaty questions fall into the "opening a can of worms" category which I will think about before composing a reply

I am glad you asked because they are pretty fundamental and crucial if we are looking at a scenario where a group associated with a particular religion wants to establish an independent homeland using the religion as a basis for constitution

We have seen some unpleasant examples of what can happen when a group of people go down this route and force their system on anyone who has the misfortune to be within their borders.

Thankfully, Sikhism is not steeped in any archaic dogma that would give rise to such a thing but the separation of religion and state is a key issue. What would the legal system be based on?

Returning to the earlier comment about pubs and clubs, if we were to follow the scriptures to the letter and the law was the same, then consumption of alcohol would be banned wouldn't it and be a punishable offence???

It's very messy.......but glad you asked!!!

winkingmunda

Was booze banned in the Sikh Empire or were all the Sikhs knocking back glasseys and then going moghul bashing?