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Sometimes culture trumps religion and spirit ssgg ji. Good question. Also, I am led to believe from various things I have read that seva in Darshan Sahib is very political. A matter of who knows who and connections. So there may also be men who are excluded but who may be very sincere. Hope I am wrong.
SSGG,
Guru Fateh.
Because we men remain chauvinistic **** who do not care about our Gurus nor about their teachings, BUT we have memorised the SGGS.
In other words, parrots with big pugs and long beards not a Sikh make.
Regards
Tejwant Singh
Why should we provide scriptural evidence.Panth itself can take take timely decisions
BTw look who is talking about equal rights for women the person who follows religion That is considered as most oppressive religion for women on earth:}{}{}::}{}{}::}{}{}::}{}{}::}{}{}:
You are not good at answering questions if asked, that I have learned yesterday, yesterday, you even couldn’t echo for the harmony of the world with many faiths.
Yesterday you kept blaming Raj Khalsa for the same thing you were doing. As a scholar you really disappointed me.
After having said that, I am going to give you verses from Sri Guru Granth Sahib that advocates men and women having the same light of the Creator, no difference, no inferiority or superiority exists if there is the same light.
Now do me a favor, give me a verse from Holy Quran if it says so in context of women. Thanks
ਧਰਣਿ ਗਗਨ ਨਹ ਦੇਖਉ ਦੋਇ ॥
Ḏẖaraṇ gagan nah ḏekẖ▫a▫u ḏo▫e.
In the earth and in the sky, I do not see any second.
ਨਾਰੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਸਬਾਈ ਲੋਇ ॥੩॥
Nārī purakẖ sabā▫ī lo▫e. ||3||
Among all the women and the men, His Light is shining. ||3||
ਪੰਨਾ 983, ਸਤਰ 3ਨਾਰੀਪੁਰਖੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਭ ਨਾਰੀ ਸਭੁ ਏਕੋ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
Nārī purakẖ purakẖ sabẖ nārī sabẖ eko purakẖ murāre.
Women and men, all the men and women, all came from the One Primal Lord God.
Javanmard
Banned
- Feb 17, 2009
- 61
- 1
kds1980 wrote:
I asked a simple question of jurisprudence. The first poster said the Gurus gave equal rights. I have no problem with that. I just want to see scriptural evidence of jurisprudential nature from the Gurus.
As for the rest of your post I would appreciate the comment if it didn't come from a person who belongs to the community that has the worst gender imbalance in teh world and that is known for commiting a daily holocaust on baby girls and female foetuses.And if you wish to discuss fiqh regarding the rights of women why not start a discussion with real points instead of just relying on fox news...
I asked a simple question of jurisprudence. The first poster said the Gurus gave equal rights. I have no problem with that. I just want to see scriptural evidence of jurisprudential nature from the Gurus.
As for the rest of your post I would appreciate the comment if it didn't come from a person who belongs to the community that has the worst gender imbalance in teh world and that is known for commiting a daily holocaust on baby girls and female foetuses.And if you wish to discuss fiqh regarding the rights of women why not start a discussion with real points instead of just relying on fox news...
Javanmard
Banned
- Feb 17, 2009
- 61
- 1
pk70 wrote:
That is a nice passage agreed. But this is not a jurisprudential text. It just states that men and women were created by God. It does not refer to their righst and duties. My question wasn't about the ontological status of men and women as creations which is exactly what the Quran states. My question is jurisprudential not theological as it deals with rights. If someone says that xyz are given rights then we are dealing with jurisprudence. It's one thing to state the common origin of men and women, yet another to define their rights.I hope I made myself understood.
When the same light exists then why discrimination? Who are you and I to give right to them, they have the same light as you and I have. The problem is this that dominating spice took away their right away from them. You are here just excusing to be in denial of the fact. Human are humans regardless the gender. Many regard that, they are known as civilized and progressed ones though many dont, they are known as frozen in old times
Javanmard
Banned
- Feb 17, 2009
- 61
- 1
Pk70 wrote:
These are your personal thoughts, which I am sure are inspired by good intentions. But I didn't was for you own opinion on an issue which you continue to situate at the level of ethics. We are not discussing ethics here which is a fascinating subject. We are discussing law and jurisprudence as the first poster spoke of rights. There is no issue that women have the same ontological status as men. But that is not what we are discussing.
Animals and trees were also created by God, does that mean that they have the same rights as humans from that fact alone? Or rather are these rights to be defined by scriptural evidence that is jurisprudential in nature?
These are your personal thoughts, which I am sure are inspired by good intentions. But I didn't was for you own opinion on an issue which you continue to situate at the level of ethics. We are not discussing ethics here which is a fascinating subject. We are discussing law and jurisprudence as the first poster spoke of rights. There is no issue that women have the same ontological status as men. But that is not what we are discussing.
Animals and trees were also created by God, does that mean that they have the same rights as humans from that fact alone? Or rather are these rights to be defined by scriptural evidence that is jurisprudential in nature?
Female foeticide is a cultural problem mainly of North India Its obvious that 99% sikhs are punjabi's so there imbalance is going to be high compared to another religions.Just go and visit Mewat Region of Haryana and see that girls are sold cheaper than cattles and It is Mev muslims that living their and sex ratio among them is also very poor.BTW also check the crime rate of Muslim youths in India and it is among the highest but do I blame Islam for Crime rate The answer is NO.Only an ignorant person can say that sikhism is responsible for female foeticide.
Pk70 wrote:quote]
These are your personal thoughts, which I am sure are inspired by good intentions.
No you are wrong, they are coming out of the concept of verses I quoted< I see that, you don’t
But I didn't was for you own opinion on an issue which you continue to situate at the level of ethics. We are not discussing ethics here which is a fascinating subject.
Whatever I said it is based on the concept of “one Light”
We are discussing law and jurisprudence as the first poster spoke of rights. There is no issue that women have the same ontological status as men. But that is not what we are discussing.
Again I have given you proof that Sikhs are advised to see and treat them considering the same Light pervades in them, what more clarification a civiled man needs
Animals and trees were also created by God, does that mean that they have the same rights as humans from that fact alone? Or rather are these rights to be defined by scriptural evidence that is jurisprudential in nature?
In the verse, there is no mention of animals its just your own imagination
Javanmard
Banned
- Feb 17, 2009
- 61
- 1
kds1980 wrote:
Then stop your stupid remarks about Islam being oppressive to women because much of that bad stuff that happens to ladies in Islamic countries is based on culture not religion. So please spare me the Fox news rhetorics.
Now back to our issue at hand: we are discussing law and jurisprudence regarding rights of women in Sikhism as given by the Gurus (so the first poster claims).
Then stop your stupid remarks about Islam being oppressive to women because much of that bad stuff that happens to ladies in Islamic countries is based on culture not religion. So please spare me the Fox news rhetorics.
Now back to our issue at hand: we are discussing law and jurisprudence regarding rights of women in Sikhism as given by the Gurus (so the first poster claims).
Still you respond very aversively. I gave you instruction of Guru who asks us to see the same light in both sexes (Nari=woman, no mention of animals), reason behind is very simple, Guru witnessed the discrimination and penned down the instruction.
What you are doing just taking refuge in denial that is fine with me; I know such instruction doesn’t exist in Holy Quran. If it does, I am sorry, its your duty to share it with us.
Again you are asking KDs1980 to stop talking about Islam in context of women discrimination without any support from your scripture- dictation. When you take an issue and the way you want to have answer in fairness, be kind enough to act in the same way. From religion to culture is a twist, we are not discussing people but scriptures. So stick to it. Please come up with your religious scripture that proves that Islam doesn’t carry any negativity or inequality for woman and surprise the world
Archived_member7
SPNer
- Mar 26, 2006
- 458
- 96
The poor illiterate fools from the sands of Saudi Arabia needed everything in writing ..common sense was not that common..so the man who lacked peace (pbuh) had to tell them everything...he alone had decided what should be the rights...otherwise how could they have known !!!
Archived_member7
SPNer
- Mar 26, 2006
- 458
- 96
I peity Persia (present day Islamic Iran) which was such a forward Nation was captured and converted ..from a noble religion of Zaruthushtra to a primitive uncivilised crude ideology of suppression
Javanmard
Banned
- Feb 17, 2009
- 61
- 1
pk70 wrote:
As for Islam give me an example of inequality regarding women given the fact that the Quran considers men and women to be equal before God.
Rajkhalsa wrote:
1. There was no Saudi dynasty at the time of the Prophet (pbuh) hence no Saudi Arabia.
2. You state that Arabs were illiterate yet needed everything in writing.
3. Define common sense.
4. The Prophet (pbuh) didn't speak from himself. He related what God revealed to him.
1. Persia is a part of Iran. Iran is the real name of the country not Persia.
2. Iranians converted gradually to Islam and it took several centuries until the majority of the country became Muslims.
3. Maybe you should re-read teh Avesta that contains the same punishments for adultery, theft etc as the Quran. Maybe you shouldn't talk about Hazrate Zartosht (as) when you can't even read Avestic.
4. The greatest genius of Islamic civilization were Iranians. If anything Iranian culture flourished under Islam. Maybe you should take some classes on Iranian history before making ignorant comments.
Pk70 I am not denying the good intentions of the Gurus or the way they treated women. The first poster said they came with "rights" but that entails a jurisprudential system of which I am asking scriptural proof of.There is a huge difference between on the one hand making theological statements about the dignity of women and giving these statements a legal or jurisprudential system to sustain it.Still you respond very aversively. I gave you instruction of Guru who asks us to see the same light in both sexes (Nari=woman, no mention of animals), reason behind is very simple, Guru witnessed the discrimination and penned down the instruction.
What you are doing just taking refuge in denial that is fine with me; I know such instruction doesn’t exist in Holy Quran. If it does, I am sorry, its your duty to share it with us.
Again you are asking KDs1980 to stop talking about Islam in context of women discrimination without any support from your scripture- dictation. When you take an issue and the way you want to have answer in fairness, be kind enough to act in the same way. From religion to culture is a twist, we are not discussing people but scriptures. So stick to it. Please come up with your religious scripture that proves that Islam doesn’t carry any negativity or inequality for woman and surprise the world
As for Islam give me an example of inequality regarding women given the fact that the Quran considers men and women to be equal before God.
Rajkhalsa wrote:
You contradict yourself:
1. There was no Saudi dynasty at the time of the Prophet (pbuh) hence no Saudi Arabia.
2. You state that Arabs were illiterate yet needed everything in writing.
3. Define common sense.
4. The Prophet (pbuh) didn't speak from himself. He related what God revealed to him.
1. Persia is a part of Iran. Iran is the real name of the country not Persia.
2. Iranians converted gradually to Islam and it took several centuries until the majority of the country became Muslims.
3. Maybe you should re-read teh Avesta that contains the same punishments for adultery, theft etc as the Quran. Maybe you shouldn't talk about Hazrate Zartosht (as) when you can't even read Avestic.
4. The greatest genius of Islamic civilization were Iranians. If anything Iranian culture flourished under Islam. Maybe you should take some classes on Iranian history before making ignorant comments.
I am back and have a couple of requests.
1. rajkhalsa ji - There is not a single forum rule that requires moderation of avatars. But I humbly ask you to take a look at your avatar and ask yourself if you are creating a context for reading your comments that is positive and constructive. SPN has to date been a very lightly moderated forum compared to most other religious forums. If you do not believe me take a look at the TOS on e-Sangha a Buddhist forum.
It would be a good idea if you voluntarily chose to switch to another image.
2. Muslim Taxi Driver will not be back on line for the foreseeable future. The reason: It was going nowhere, getting repetitious and engaging in defamatory language. It is not important who threw the first punch at this point in time. Please consider the fate of that thread when responding to this one.
So far everything looks like legitimate debate.
3. Most if not all of the mod's are not moved by appeals to sentiment, passion, and symbolic exercises in saving face. We are only moved by forum rules, the law of the Internet and basic respect for fair play. Off line that is a different story. We are not perfect. Please abide by same.
Thank you
Antonia
1. rajkhalsa ji - There is not a single forum rule that requires moderation of avatars. But I humbly ask you to take a look at your avatar and ask yourself if you are creating a context for reading your comments that is positive and constructive. SPN has to date been a very lightly moderated forum compared to most other religious forums. If you do not believe me take a look at the TOS on e-Sangha a Buddhist forum.
It would be a good idea if you voluntarily chose to switch to another image.
2. Muslim Taxi Driver will not be back on line for the foreseeable future. The reason: It was going nowhere, getting repetitious and engaging in defamatory language. It is not important who threw the first punch at this point in time. Please consider the fate of that thread when responding to this one.
So far everything looks like legitimate debate.
3. Most if not all of the mod's are not moved by appeals to sentiment, passion, and symbolic exercises in saving face. We are only moved by forum rules, the law of the Internet and basic respect for fair play. Off line that is a different story. We are not perfect. Please abide by same.
Thank you
Antonia
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