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spnadmin

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javanmardj i

So you have. Apologies for not noticing before you called my attention to it. I was blinded by smoke and flames coming from an automatic rifle. Just now regaining my vision.

Would you explain the symbolism -- if any -- I would appreciate it.
 

Javanmard

Banned
Feb 17, 2009
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It is the coat of arms of the flag of the Islamic Republic of Iran and it is a stylized version of the name of God in Arabic "Allah".
 
Mar 26, 2006
458
96
You are again moving away from the main point trying to get into another arguement...thus ignoring the main issue ...

but it answer u ..it is always mentioned as Saudi Arabia..so thats understood..i doubt whether it was known as a Arabia...since you are name specific ..

well dint yor prophet according to you 'educate' them ?

For your info..since you want to define common sense ..and since it seems you need guidence for english terms
This is something authentic..
Common sense (or, when used attributively as an adjective, commonsense, common-sense, or commonsensical), based on a strict construction of the term, consists of what people in common would agree on: that which they "sense" (in common) as their common natural understanding. Some people (such as the authors of Merriam-Webster Online) use the phrase to refer to beliefs or propositions that — in their opinion — most people would consider prudent and of sound judgment, without reliance on esoteric knowledge or study or research, but based upon what they see as knowledge held by people "in common". Thus "common sense" (in this view) equates to the knowledge and experience which most people allegedly have, or which the person using the term believes that they do or should have.
 

Javanmard

Banned
Feb 17, 2009
61
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rajkhalsa wrote:

Common sense (or, when used attributively as an adjective
Adjective
, commonsense, common-sense, or commonsensical), based on a strict construction of the term, consists of what people in common would agree on: that which they " sense
Sense
" (in common) as their common natural understanding. Some people (such as the authors of Merriam-Webster Online) use the phrase to refer to beliefs
Belief
or propositions
Proposition
that — in their opinion — most people would consider prudent
Prudence
and of sound judgment
Judgment
, without reliance on esoteric knowledge
Esoteric_knowledge
or study or research, but based upon what they see as knowledge
Knowledge
held by people "in common". Thus "common sense" (in this view) equates to the knowledge and experience
Experience
which most people allegedly have, or which the person using the term believes that they do or should
Obligation
have.
1."consists of what people in common would agree on" so it's what people decide, not God.
2. "without reliance on esoteric knowledge
Esoteric_knowledge
or study or research", so no divine origin.
3."but based upon what they see as knowledge
Knowledge
held by people "in common".

So this is knowledge that isn't divine in origin and that is determined by the majority of common people who are themselves not perfect. In gubani there is a word for that: manmat. All source of knowledge in terms of spiritual, ethical, social and political guidance has got to be of divine origine because man being the imperfect creature that he/she is, is unable to to come up with a spiritual, ethical, social and political guidance that transcends human imperfection. Hence why humanity since Hazrate Adam (as) is to follow divine guidance through God's sent prophets.
Any form of system that is outside divine ordinance is based on fallible and imperfect human nature and hence rebellion against God. In gurbani this is called manmat.
I am glad to see that you admit to be following manmat.

I again go back to the question of women's rights in Sikhism and ask for scriptural evidence that is legal and jurisprudential in nature so as to discuss the issue of women's rights in Sikhism.
 
Mar 26, 2006
458
96
Manmat and common sense..hehehehehehe you seem to be just a confused and illogical person ..

Going back to answer the question ??? That makes sense ..!!! It takes so much hammering to make a person following the ideology of suppression understand this !!! :happy:
 

Javanmard

Banned
Feb 17, 2009
61
1
Rajkhalsa wrote:

Manmat and common sense..hehehehehehe you seem to be just a confused and illogical person ..

Going back to answer the question ??? That makes sense ..!!! It takes so much hammering to make a person following the ideology of suppression understand this !!! :happy:

You have given me the definition of what defines manmat as well:
manmat: human judgement based on non-divine conceptions and hence devoid of divine validity. That's exactly what is in your definition of common sense.
 

Javanmard

Banned
Feb 17, 2009
61
1
Here is the issue:

The first poster stated that Gurus gave equal rights. As such he/she puts them in a position of legislators giving out a body of laws. There is no doubt that their hymns are women friendly and encourage a respectful attitude towards women. That is beyond doubt and shouldn't even be questionned. But what needs to be questionned is whether it is appropriate to talk of "rights" when this actually implies giving them a legislative and jurisprudential function that is completely lacking in their hymns which are foremost theological and mystical statements. I am rather dissapointed that some member saw my posts as an attack on the Guru's teachings when in fact I was questioning the appropriateness of the use of the term "rights" and hence the idea of jurisprudence in the context of the teachings of the Sikh Gurus.

Rajkhalsa wrote:

u seem to be good at getting into arguements and avoid issues ..
And you seem not to know anything about debatting or English for that matter.
 

pk70

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pk70 wrote:

Pk70 I am not denying the good intentions of the Gurus or the way they treated women.
Thanks
The first poster said they came with "rights" but that entails a jurisprudential system of which I am asking scriptural proof of.There is a huge difference between on the one hand making theological statements about the dignity of women and giving these statements a legal or jurisprudential system to sustain it.
Guru advises his followers to follow him to see His light in all to seek the Creator, I gave you a couple of them, there are more but essence is the same . So that question of yours was answered, now zig zagging is on. I am more interested in to be focused on the issue that triggered your question(answered already, you take it as Guru intention, it serves the purpose)

As for Islam give me an example of inequality regarding women given the fact that the Quran considers men and women to be equal before God./quote]
I asked you,again you are throwing that question back on me evasively? Why couldn't you quote from Holy Quran what is really advocated in favor of women's equality in all respects keeping in mind we are not discussing cultures
If I have some thing on this issue I will quote right away to ask you why "this thing is said" about women in Holy Quran? Fair enough?:)
 

Tejwant Singh

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The facts of the Islamic world






Women and girls in Iraq live in constant fear of violence as the conflict intensifies and insecurity spirals. Within their own communities, many women and girls remain at risk of death or injury from male relatives if they are accused of behavior held to have brought dishonor on the family.
Recently, in Bashika, Mosul, hundreds of men beat and stoned a 17 year old woman named Du’a Khalil Aswad to death, in a gruesome example of collective ‘honour killing’. The woman, a member of the Yezidi religion, which is practiced by Kurds in Northern Iraq, ran away from her family to join an Arab Muslim man with whom she had fallen in love and had been meeting secretly, but who rejected her. Damned under the ‘honour’ code, for running away, for choosing outside her own community and for being ultimately rejected, Du’a had nowhere to go.
For a couple of days, she had put up with a local Yezidi tribal leader but to live in peace was not in her destiny. She was abducted and brutally murdered in front of hundreds of men by her relatives — who stripped her body, beat and kicked her, and killed her by crushing her body with rocks and concrete blocks. The police officials too participated in the disgusting communal murder.
Stoning: Is it the part of culture in Iraq?
Death by stoning is slow and painful. Islamic code prescribes that ‘the stone should not be so big as to kill the offender with one or two stones’ and ‘nor should it be as small as pebbles’.
The Islamic groups resort to every possible method to terrorize Iraqi women. Today, stoning is only practiced in order to maintain the submission of its women and those in the lower cast. Also, those impoverished or socially unimportant are punished by stoning.


Silent Killings
There are frequent reports of ‘honor crimes’ in Iraq - in particular in the predominantly Kurdish north of the country. Most victims of ‘honor crimes’ are women and girls who are considered by their male relatives and others to have shamed the women’s families by immoral behavior.
Often grounds for such accusations are flimsy and no more than rumor.
What is the situation like?
The government’s failure to protect women, and enforce laws against criminals, has created a situation where thousands of women become victims of so called honor killings. Violence has risen as a result of patriarchal and religious traditions.
In the 21st century, for such crimes to be carried out in broad daylight is not only a shame on society as whole, but most of all, it is a shame on a government that is unable to protect women from such inhumane and backward practices.
With officials largely silent on the issue except to deny that it occurs, it is unclear how many more women in the province are stoned to death.
The barbaric and violent practice of stoning will continue as long as people will water the cult of Islam, MuHAMmad, which has put his hands everywhere especially in this inhuman practice of ’stoning women to death’ and in imposing uncivilized Sharia Law upon human culture.
It forces me to ask a question, can women in Muslim countries ever expect to breathe in the air of self- approbation?

http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/is-stoning-women-to-death-mandated-by-koran-or-islam/
 
Mar 26, 2006
458
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keep your personal opinions to yorself ..Mr Javaan Mard ....accepted that you come from a barbaric mindset but atleast behave when you come among the civilised ...

Mods...if u cannot keep this piece of nonsense quiet ..dont blame me when i loosen my tongue ..
 

Javanmard

Banned
Feb 17, 2009
61
1
pk70 wrote:

Guru advises his followers to follow him to see His light in all to seek the Creator, I gave you a couple of them, there are more but essence is the same . So that question of yours was answered, now zig zagging is on. I am more interested in to be focused on the issue that triggered your question(answered already, you take it as Guru intention, it serves the purpose)
You are talking here about a personal ethical code which is fine. But these aren't laws or rights. To be able to give and define righst one needs to be a legislator.

I asked you,again you are throwing that question back on me evasively? Why couldn't you quote from Holy Quran what is really advocated in favor of women's equality in all respects keeping in mind we are not discussing cultures
If I have some thing on this issue I will quote right away to ask you why "this thing is said" about women in Holy Quran? Fair enough?:)
Today 02:27 AM
Here are some treaties on the issue by famous authorities:

The Rights of Women in Islam by Shahid Motahari (ra)
Woman And Her Rights

This work contains all the Quranic passages and the hadiths necessary for their understanding. Enjoy the reading.


Vaheguruseeker, your link refers to a famous stoning case in the Yezidi community. The Yezidis are not Muslims at all but are mistaken to be Muslims by ignorant Westeners. I am sorry you have been mislead.
 

pk70

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pk70 wrote:



You are talking here about a personal ethical code which is fine. But these aren't laws or rights. To be able to give and define righst one needs to be a legislator.



Here are some treaties on the issue by famous authorities:

The Rights of Women in Islam by Shahid Motahari (ra)
Woman And Her Rights

This work contains all the Quranic passages and the hadiths necessary for their understanding. Enjoy the reading.

Look,Sikhs are called learners, we learn from our Guru, He teaches us to see the Light of the creator in all human beings regardless the gender, faith or race. That is the instruction. That is what they need. So, after accepting Guru-intention alright, you are pathetically again try to make an issue which as per your own words" Guru Intention" is addressed. Yes Guru-intention, that is what we follow as his followers. "Where is this written and that written" holds no logical ground.

I asked you repeatedly please give me quotes from Holy Quran, as per your habit of dodging, you are referring to some one's theory, I am not interested in others but in what Holy Quran says, so again, give me the quotes. I gave you original Verses.Thanks.
 

Javanmard

Banned
Feb 17, 2009
61
1
pk70 wrote:

Look,Sikhs are called learners, we learn from our Guru, He teaches us to see the Light of the creator in all human beings regardless the gender, faith or race. That is the instruction. That is what they need. So, after accepting Guru-intention alright, you are pathetically again try to make an issue which as per your own words" Guru Intention" is addressed. Yes Guru-intention, that is what we follow as his followers. "Where is this written and that written" holds no logical ground.
Re-read my post. I am not at all questionning the fact that the Guru is principle of emulation for Sikhs. Rather I am stating that this is a personal ethical code NOT a code of laws as the Gurus didn't assume the functions of legislators.So talking of "women friendly teachings" would be more appropriate rather than saying that the Gurus, who weren't legislators gave "rights".

All the quotes on women from the Quran are in the link I have given you with the original Arabic and the translation. So yes pk70 I have given you the quotes. As a matter of principle I don't quote scripture without giving its context as this is a scholarly requirement in the school of Ahlul Bayt (as). The ayah always needs to be given with its context. Given the fact that I am not the best scholar in Islam I referred you to a bona fide scholar. You may chose to bypass his comments in order just to read the quotes.
 

pk70

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pk70 wrote:

Re-read my post. I am not at all questionning the fact that the Guru is principle of emulation for Sikhs. Rather I am stating that this is a personal ethical code NOT a code of laws as the Gurus didn't assume the functions of legislators.So talking of "women friendly teachings" would be more appropriate rather than saying that the Gurus, who weren't legislators gave "rights".

Civility progressed on understanding and personal codes of ethics, it is also called transformation of stagnant thinking. Guru has said to his follower to figure out ethics and morality. No controlling concept exists in Guru Teachings still it marvelously changed millions of people. So you should move on from that"right" If you are not aware of, let me inform you, when we read Gurubani, we call it "Hukamnama" which means "ordinance of Guru" that can also be translated into "given right as per inspiration" When thinking is changes, prospectives and application change

All the quotes on women from the Quran are in the link I have given you with the original Arabic and the translation. So yes pk70 I have given you the quotes.

No Javanmarad, you have just referred me to another guy. I didnt refere you to another guy. If you couldnt why did you ask others?
As a matter of principle I don't quote scripture without giving its context as this is a scholarly requirement in the school of Ahlul Bayt (as). The ayah always needs to be given with its context. Given the fact that I am not the best scholar in Islam I referred you to a bona fide scholar. You may chose to bypass his comments in order just to read the quotes.
We have context- women gentleman and that is " Women's Equal rights in all aspects" Prove your stand that Islam gives full equality by giving quotes from Holy Quran, I can help you a little bit, it can be found in "SURAH 1V"
 

spnadmin

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After taking some time to read through all the posts in this thread I think that the discussion took a turn away from the original question and response in Posts 1 through 4. The discussion then veered to a comparative view of Women (Sikh, Islamic, Zoroastrian to a lesser extent). Some portions of the debate are rooted in culture, others in the use of language, others in appeals to scripture. So the thread was moved to Interfaith Dialogs.

ssgg ji - If you would like to continue a thread on Seva and Women at Darbar Sahib, let me know and we can start a new thread.

Thank you.
 

Javanmard

Banned
Feb 17, 2009
61
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pk70 wrote:

Civility progressed on understanding and personal codes of ethics, it is also called transformation of stagnant thinking. Guru has said to his follower to figure out ethics and morality. No controlling concept exists in Guru Teachings still it marvelously changed millions of people. So you should move on from that"right" If you are not aware of, let me inform you, when we read Gurubani, we call it "Hukamnama" which means "ordinance of Guru" that can also be translated into "given right as per inspiration" When thinking is changes, prospectives and application change

This has nothing to do with rights or law. You're discussing ethics which is fine. I am discussing law. You and I are discussing two totally different things I am afraid. Nevermind.

No Javanmarad, you have just referred me to another guy. I didnt refere you to another guy. If you couldnt why did you ask others?

As I told you all the quotes are in the link I gave you. I don't see why you make such a drama out of it.
 

pk70

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pk70 wrote:



This has nothing to do with rights or law. You're discussing ethics which is fine. I am discussing law. You and I are discussing two totally different things I am afraid. Nevermind.

What is meant by Ordinance? Law triggers Ordinance, We take Guru Teachings as Law unlike man made or passed laws for own needs, So you are just now going back to trolling, first you wanted from us to state scriptural proof, (I did and explained how they are Ordinance for Guru Followers)now you are trying to define law.

As I told you all the quotes are in the link I gave you. I don't see why you make such a drama out of it.
Reason is very simple, I want you to question your advocacy of Islam in context of Women Equality just as you asked Sikhs. Well obviously you like yesterday, are not interested in real debating. I, considering you highly educated, thought you would, obviously you are not bending from you irrational stand about quoting others views instead of your own in case of understanding the support Holy Quran in Equality of women. So it be.
 

Astroboy

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Look,Sikhs are called learners, we learn from our Guru, He teaches us to see the Light of the creator in all human beings regardless the gender, faith or race. That is the instruction. That is what they need. So, after accepting Guru-intention alright, you are pathetically again try to make an issue which as per your own words" Guru Intention" is addressed. Yes Guru-intention, that is what we follow as his followers. "Where is this written and that written" holds no logical ground.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib does teach us common law and common sense and points out what is right and what is wrong. But there is a big difference between priority in Islam and Sikhism therefore what we here are trying to do is comparing apple with an orange. There is hardly a common ground of purpose with regards to jurisprudence for the suppressed. Suppressed in what way ? Physical abuse as in Islam or spiritual abuse as in Sikhism? or vise versa. The very belief systems differ in nature for e.g. in Sikhism - "we are spirit-born" whereas in Islam it might be different belief, hence the basic belief being different, thus the need to implement jurisprudence would follow its basic belief.

How many percent of the Quran actually deals with spiritual laws as compared with physical ones. And how many percent of SGGS deals with the same comparison? Point to ponder.

Why does it become more necessary to emphasize on written laws of women rights to a greater extent in certain cultures as compared with other cultures?

Maybe we should discuss this with an open mind.
 

Javanmard

Banned
Feb 17, 2009
61
1
pk70 wrote:

What is meant by Ordinance? Law triggers Ordinance, We take Guru Teachings as Law unlike man made or passed laws for own needs, So you are just now going back to trolling, first you wanted from us to state scriptural proof, (I did and explained how they are Ordinance for Guru Followers)now you are trying to define law.

1. It is divine ordinance that brings about Law, not the opposite.
2. You provided a quote that talks about the ontological status of woman and man: that is NOT a jurisprudential or legal argument.
3. You are talking of ordinance for "Guru followers" but you have a socio-political programme: Khalsa Raj. What about non-Sikhs? What are the laws concerning them?

Reason is very simple, I want you to question your advocacy of Islam in context of Women Equality just as you asked Sikhs. Well obviously you like yesterday, are not interested in real debating. I, considering you highly educated, thought you would, obviously you are not bending from you irrational stand about quoting others views instead of your own in case of understanding the support Holy Quran in Equality of women. So it be.

1. If that is your wish then create a new thread for a one on one debate and ask the questions. The burden of presenting the case that Islam treats women unjustly is on you.
2. I am simply questioning the fact that you see law and jurisprudence in ethical and theological statements which are two completely different areas.

namjap wrote:

Sri Guru Granth Sahib does teach us common law and common sense and points out what is right and what is wrong. But there is a big difference between priority in Islam and Sikhism therefore what we here are trying to do is comparing apple with an orange. There is hardly a common ground of purpose with regards to jurisprudence for the suppressed. Suppressed in what way ? Physical abuse as in Islam or spiritual abuse as in Sikhism? or vise versa. The very belief systems differ in nature for e.g. in Sikhism - "we are spirit-born" whereas in Islam it might be different belief, hence the basic belief being different, thus the need to implement jurisprudence would follow its basic belief.

How many percent of the Quran actually deals with spiritual laws as compared with physical ones. And how many percent of SGGS deals with the same comparison? Point to ponder.

Why does it become more necessary to emphasize on written laws of women rights to a greater extent in certain cultures as compared with other cultures?

Maybe we should discuss this with an open mind.

Well I am sorry but any tradition that envisages the creation of a state ruled by divine law has a body of law to which the citizens can refer to. If I am to believe your tradition's desire of Raj karega Khalsa that means that this Raj would come with laws unless of course you want to keep the citizens under the arbitrary desires of five men. Buddhism doesn't have a body of laws because it has no ambitions to rule society hence why in Japan and China it is Confucianism that takes over that role. Sikhism has a socio-economic project and I think it would be only fair to give the potential citizens of that state knowledge of its laws or jurisprudential system. If there is no such thing but rather a body of ethical teachings then Sikhs have to cope with the internal contradiction of claiming a socio-political project on one hand and yet lacking the necessary legislative body to carry it out. India has known the Dharmashastras,Judaism has its jurisprudential system, So does Islam, whereas Christianity opted for a mixture of Judaic and Roman law.
If women friendly attitudes in gurbani are to be implemented into socio-political realities how would that be done? and on the basis of what jurisprudential system? That is the question. What would regulate inheritance? Laws regarding marriage? Rights of women to refuse a wedding? Issues of domestic violence etc
I am not denying that the Gurus had a woman friendly attitude. What I am questionning is the idea that Sikhism has a jurisprudential system that enables these friendly attitudes to be translated into socio-political realities.
And btw the Quran is ONE of the sources of jurisprudence, the other is the body of hadiths going back to Ahlul Bayt (as) in which there huge sections on jurisprudence as well as the rules to engage in ijtihad.
 
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