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Status Of Women

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pk70

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pk70 ji

My reaction There are statements by Javanard ji that raise a lot of questions in my mind, as they do for you. Lot's of questions.

I am not by any stretch of imagination an expert on the historical facts and subtleties surround many of the claims made. I however suspect that the concerns raised may have been more true during the raj when Sikhism had become extremely compromised by the political confusion of the day. For example, Maharaj Ranjit had several wives and concubines. So what! It proves nothing about basic tenets of Sikhism.

The fact that Sri Guru Granth Sahib may be silent on the specifics proves nothing.

Not exactly, it implies the message of a good family man, it never refers "women" but "woman" (Not Naryaan-plural but Nari-singular) in context of family moral teachings.,
Surprisingly it has been repeated, if somes's mind avoids it, I would call that mind at fault.
It would be helpful if someone would respond with actual evidence and historical documentation. My basic intuition is that culture and politics have been tangled up with misunderstandings of the basics of Nanakian philosophy. Apologies if I have offended anyone.

We

aad Bhain Jio
I agree.

The question was “give scriptural reference in context of women status”
It was answered with Gurbani quotes.
The guy who asked the question, kept zigzagging and ended up stooping low to point out cultural practices in Sikhism and to find out faults in others( Ironically he himself had those faults). It’s an illogical bashing of a faith and people because that was not the point of discussion.
The bottom line:

If we see scriptural support from any religion in favor of women, it must be applauded; however, if scriptural reference of a faith degrades women, it must be condemned.
 

spnadmin

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pk70 ji

And once again I agree with you. One more thought to add. When a scripture does not specifically mention, x or y or z -- then a objective person will not then make conclusions based on missing information. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence -- or anything else for that matter. :D And that is what we have been reading for a week now.
 

kds1980

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Forum members --

I am taking the previous two posts out of the thread to analyze them. The rhetoric is hot -- and not contributing to further development of the thread. After the mods take a look they may/may not be returned.

One thing a forum leader can and should do is redirect the conversation. It would make sense then to go back to an earlier and unresolved issue in the debate. The Koran and related law speaks to the protection and value of women. Actual practice over the centuries up until today contradicts the religious ideas. Why not think about the reasons why that occurs? Recently the King of Saudi Arabia reorganized the Sharia court (forgive me that is not the official name) and gave the dangers of extremism as the reason. He took a risk doing this. The treatment of rape-victims was one of his given examples. Likewise in Sikhism Guruji and related scriptures speak of the importance of woman, their parity with men, yet we read of honor killings among Sikhs. The argument -- Oh well you don't know what it is like in India! - won't work in this case. From reading the news, it seems like it happens in Canada every month!

Why do the ideal images of religions play out very differently in history? Why does culture trump religion when we are looking at behavior? Why does the religious establishment seem to be unable to call an end to this? Why do various sects within Islam and/or Sikhism have different views of women in their traditions, even within the same religion? For example, women can participate in the sema ceremony of Turkish Sufis. And yet, Turkey has outlawed the sema ceremony.

I might learn something from this discourse. Please be patient with me.

Antonia ji

I am sorry But I am unable to understand your post .On one hand you quoted example of saudi king on the other hand you quoted example of honor killings I don't understand what is the relation between these 2 examples.

Also I want to say That if you or any want to scrutinise religions then its better to scrutinise them indivisually
 

kds1980

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kds1980 ji
i have read your post several times and still think that it is an excuse for poor sikhism. If it is said by Guru Nanak ji that we are all equal then it is part of sikhism. to treat anyone differently must therefore be against sikhism, citing a social system is no more than a poor excuse. this is exactly why sikhism came to be, to change the way people live and are treated. How can you stand in front of our lord and say i have followed the preachings of the Guru ji's when you havent treated all equally.it does not take scriptural evidence just basic human kindness if you cannot treat your fellow man and that includes women equally then you have failed. Social and cultural behaviour are man made and as such man can change them. stop blameing others and change. for those who have already change then this post is not intended to offend, for those who havent then it is. SEXIST and RACIST behaviour is not acceptable nor is their any defence. It takes a strong man to stand in front of others and say they disagree. i thought sikhs where to supposed to be strong looks like i was wrong. sikhism is destined to remain an Indian religion if change doesnt come about, with more and more girls marrying white boys the religion will die and with it the gurus dream. who'd want a life of oppression when they see freedom,
Tony

Tony ji

Its True that Guru's preached equality But apart from equality they also preached many things.The guru's never said that sikhs should chase money but a very high percentage
of sikhs are madly chasing money.The guru's said not to consume Alchol but the consumption of Alchol is very high among sikh men.Guru's advocated simple life but still sikhs are known for their luxurious life style.So the fact is That very large percentage of sikhs are just cultural or social sikhs .Very very few sikhs are actually trying to follow what Guru's said.

Btw What make's you think that more and more sikh women will marry white boys?do you beleive that all white men are free from
Racist and sexist behaviour.I am sorry to say but white women too have lot of complaints against white men and Divorce rate is very high In USA and europe.
 

spnadmin

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Antonia ji

I am sorry But I am unable to understand your post .On one hand you quoted example of saudi king on the other hand you quoted example of honor killings I don't understand what is the relation between these 2 examples.

Also I want to say That if you or any want to scrutinise religions then its better to scrutinise them indivisually

kds ji

I need to disagree. In each case there is a common theme, and a common way out. Important not to miss the forest for the trees.
 

Javanmard

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Feb 17, 2009
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Pk70 your gubani quotes were just stating that men and women were created by God. It's an ontological statement about creation not a jurisprudential one. Example:

"It is forbidden to do x y z" is a jurisprudential or legal statement

whereas

"Fish and trees were created by God" is a statement about the creation of fish and trees and has no implication on the legal stated otherwise in some other part of scripture, something like "...and therefore you should not kille fish and trees". Statements about rights and duties are to be derived from scriptural passages that are legal in nature.

That was my only issue with your posts. You still keep on missing the point by making me into some conspiracy monger. I leave you to that choice.

It's one thing to state that men and women are created by God, yet another to state their rights and duties. You gave me quotes that are ontological in nature. Not a single jurisprudential one. Then you moved on to the typical "tun tun main main" game of "oh what about in Islam" which could have been answered in a different thread. You then mentionned different ayahs of the Quran WITHOUT giving the necessary hadiths and context to understand them. It might come as a surprise to you but there are rules about quoting the Quran of which of course you had no idea of.
I am just writing this to make things clear. If you have a personal problem with me leave it for the pm messages.
 

Tejwant Singh

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Javanmarad,

You have lost any credibility as a Muslim and more important as a person. You have not have had the guts to show me the News from the Islamic countries condemning the atrocities committed by Muslim men against Muslim women like beheading, rapes, punishment by lashing etc etc., despite my reminders.

So for you to babble about jurisprudence and mock others is nothing but hot air with myopic thought process.

Are you sure you are a professor as you claim to be because with the qualifications you have shown here, you were able to flunk yourself with commendations?

This proves that you are a man or a woman that lacks character. Is that an Islamic trait?

Tejwant Singh
 

tony

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Feb 20, 2006
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Tony ji

Its True that Guru's preached equality But apart from equality they also preached many things.The guru's never said that sikhs should chase money but a very high percentage
of sikhs are madly chasing money.The guru's said not to consume Alchol but the consumption of Alchol is very high among sikh men.Guru's advocated simple life but still sikhs are known for their luxurious life style.So the fact is That very large percentage of sikhs are just cultural or social sikhs .Very very few sikhs are actually trying to follow what Guru's said.

Btw What make's you think that more and more sikh women will marry white boys?do you beleive that all white men are free from
Racist and sexist behaviour.I am sorry to say but white women too have lot of complaints against white men and Divorce rate is very high In USA and europe.
kds1980 ji
I cant agree more with the first paragraph, Which doesnt say alot for Sikhism nor does it make it right to discriminate against women or do any of the afore mentioned, It does seem however that this a male problem. As for the second part, I dont for one minute think that white men are any better nor are they free from sexism or racism, the fact is women have the right to complain and initiate divorce proceedings without fear of being disowned or rejected by friends and family in England. The statement I made that more and more sikh girls will marry white men is based on my own personal observation as a Door supervisor, 25 yrs ago a mixed couple was very rarely seen especially asian white couples, yet in the last 3 yrs there has been a rapid rise in the number that ive seen and as more and more Sikh girls go to Uni then this is set to rise even further. Im not having ago at Sikhism merely at the people who preach it and then practice the opposite, It is like I said to follow the crowd doesnt make it right. Change is required, again i say stand up and lead the way and many will follow, Sikhism is perfect the flaw lies in those who follow the flawed. I did and am now richer in friends and purer in soul. stop defending the fault and try mending it
TONY
 

pk70

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Pk70 your gubani quotes were just stating that men and women were created by God. It's an ontological statement about creation not a jurisprudential one. Example:

"It is forbidden to do x y z" is a jurisprudential or legal statement

whereas

"Fish and trees were created by God" is a statement about the creation of fish and trees and has no implication on the legal stated otherwise in some other part of scripture, something like "...and therefore you should not kille fish and trees". Statements about rights and duties are to be derived from scriptural passages that are legal in nature.

That was my only issue with your posts. You still keep on missing the point by making me into some conspiracy monger. I leave you to that choice.

It's one thing to state that men and women are created by God, yet another to state their rights and duties. You gave me quotes that are ontological in nature. Not a single jurisprudential one. Then you moved on to the typical "tun tun main main" game of "oh what about in Islam" which could have been answered in a different thread. You then mentionned different ayahs of the Quran WITHOUT giving the necessary hadiths and context to understand them. It might come as a surprise to you but there are rules about quoting the Quran of which of course you had no idea of.
I am just writing this to make things clear. If you have a personal problem with me leave it for the pm messages.


If on my way, I see a smelly dirt- pond, I cover up my nose and I pass by.
 

kds1980

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kds1980 ji
I cant agree more with the first paragraph, Which doesnt say alot for Sikhism nor does it make it right to discriminate against women or do any of the afore mentioned, It does seem however that this a male problem. As for the second part, I dont for one minute think that white men are any better nor are they free from sexism or racism, the fact is women have the right to complain and initiate divorce proceedings without fear of being disowned or rejected by friends and family in England. The statement I made that more and more sikh girls will marry white men is based on my own personal observation as a Door supervisor, 25 yrs ago a mixed couple was very rarely seen especially asian white couples, yet in the last 3 yrs there has been a rapid rise in the number that ive seen and as more and more Sikh girls go to Uni then this is set to rise even further. Im not having ago at Sikhism merely at the people who preach it and then practice the opposite, It is like I said to follow the crowd doesnt make it right. Change is required, again i say stand up and lead the way and many will follow, Sikhism is perfect the flaw lies in those who follow the flawed. I did and am now richer in friends and purer in soul. stop defending the fault and try mending it
TONY

Tony ji

First of all I am not defending the fault

Now let me tell you about myself.I belong from a Delhi City Family where polite culture was practiced.Drinking alchol,domestic voilence were the things that we never heard even in distant families.I still rememer how when I was living in joint family It is the women that used to dominate and fight with each other.Majority of men in our family were under their wives and later on The joint family was broken.But even still the present generation of sikh girls of my family(I mean my cousins did not marry sikhs or are not much into sikhism).I know you have seen lot of sikh familes mostly from Rural punjab where macho culture is practised.and in macho culture men are always favoured..

Anyway I agree with you that change is required But it is required from both sides and not only From men because if you think that discrimination is the only reason that sikh women are marrying outside their religion then it is not fully true.
 

kds1980

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Mr. Bahadur ali Here are some wonderful incidence of Justice from your beloved Shia Iran
Information on individual cases:

Iran was reportedly talking to the son of a neighbour in the courtyard of her house, when her husband attacked her with a knife. She was badly beaten and left bleeding and unconscious on the floor. While she was unconscious, it is alleged that the man killed her husband with his own knife. While police were interrogating her about the killing, Iran reportedly confessed to adultery with the son of her neighbour. However she later retracted her confession. A court in the city of Khuzestan sentenced her to five years' imprisonment for being an accomplice in the murder of her husband, and to execution by stoning for adultery. The verdict was upheld by the Supreme Court in April 2006. Her lawyer has appealed against the sentence. She is detained in Sepidar prison, in Ahvaz city.

Khayrieh an Ahwazi Arab, was reportedly subjected to domestic violence by her husband. She allegedly began an affair with a relative of her husband, who then murdered him. She was sentenced to death by Branch 3 of Behbahan Court, in Khuzestan in southwestern Iran, for being an accomplice in the murder of her husband, and death by stoning for adultery. Khayrieh has denied any involvement in her husband's murder, but confessed to adultery. The sentence was upheld, and the case has reportedly been sent to the Head of the Judiciary for permission to be implemented. Talking about her fate, Khayrieh said "I am ready to be hanged, but they should not stone me. They could strangle you and you would die, but it is very difficult to have stones hitting you in the head".

Kobra Najjar, who is detained in Tabriz prison in northwestern Iran, is at imminent risk of execution. She was sentenced to eight years' imprisonment for being an accomplice to the murder of her husband, and execution by stoning for adultery. She was scheduled to be executed after serving her prison sentence, which was finished two years ago. She has reportedly written to the Judicial Commission for Amnesty to ask for her sentence of execution by stoning to be commuted, and is awaiting a reply. Kobra Najjar was allegedly forced into prostitution by her husband, a heroin addict who was violent towards her. In 1995, after a severe beating by her husband, she told one of her regular customers that she wanted to kill her husband. The customer allegedly murdered her husband after Kobra Najjar took him to an arranged meeting place. He was sentenced to death, but he was pardoned by the victim's family, to whom he paid diyeh (blood money).

Soghra Mola'i was sentenced to 15 years' imprisonment for being an accomplice to the murder in January 2004 of her husband Abdollah, and to execution by stoning for adultery. During interrogation she said "My husband usually tormented me. Nevertheless, I did not intend to kill him. On the night of the incident ... after Alireza killed my husband, I ran away with him because I was scared to stay at home, thinking that my brothers-in-law would kill me." Alireza was sentenced to death for the murder of Soghra Mola'i's husband, and to 100 lashes for "illicit relations". The sentences are pending examination by the Supreme Court. It is believed that Soghra Mola'i is detained in Reja'i Shahr prison, Karaj, near Tehran.

Fatemeh (surname unknown) was sentenced in May 2005, Branch 71 of the Tehran Province Criminal Court to retribution (qesas) for being an accomplice to murder, and execution by stoning for having an 'illicit relationship' with a man named Mahmoud. Her husband was sentenced to 16 years' imprisonment for being an accomplice to the murder of Mahmoud. The case is currently being examined in the Supreme Court. According to a May 2005 report in the newspaper Etemad, an altercation occurred between Mahmoud, and Fatemeh's husband. Fatemeh confessed to tying a rope around Mahmoud's throat, which resulted in his strangulation. She has claimed that she intended merely to tie his hands and feet after he was unconscious and hand him over to the police.

Ashraf Kalhori who was scheduled to be stoned by the end of July 2006, has had her execution temporarily stayed by the Head of Judiciary. Ayatollah Shahroudi. Ashraf Kalhori remains under sentence of death. Ashraf Kalhori was sentenced to death by stoning for adultery, in accordance with laws relating to married women. She was also sentenced to fifteen years' imprisonment for allegedly taking part in the murder of her husband. According to Ashraf Kalhori, the killing was accidental, but police accused her of having an affair with her neighbour and encouraging the attack. She reportedly confessed to adultery under police interrogation, but later retracted her confession.

Abdollah F. (m) has been sentenced to death by stoning.

Parisa (surname unknown) appealed against the stoning sentences with the Discernment Branch of the Supreme Court. On 8 November 2006, Branch 15 of the Supreme Court reviewed the cases, to determine whether the sentence of stoning had been appropriate and consistent with Islamic law. During the entire court session, Parisa was holding the hands of her three-year-old son. On 27 November, the Supreme Court changed the sentence to flogging for both Parisa and her husband. Her husband Najaf has reportedly been sentenced to a period of exile in a different city.
 

Javanmard

Banned
Feb 17, 2009
61
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I don't know what your problem is kds1980? These people have been arrested, confessed to their crimes and are receiving the punishment as prescribed by the law. Adultery is a serious crime for which death is the punishment. Mind you some of these cases may have been judged too harshly. If a woman has been forced by her husband into prostitution that is a different issue and in that case her husband should get punished for it. Adultery is a crime, not just a sin and there is a punishment for it.

What punishment exists in Sikhism for someone who kills his daughter? Cleaning shoes at the gurdwara? Washing plates in the langar?

But my point is: there is a legal system based on legal ordinances in scriptures. I didn't join this thread to show that Islam was better. I joined because of the claim of there being "rights" in Sikhism, a religion that DOES NOT HAVE A LEGAL SYSTEM AND IS HENCE INCAPABLE OF UPHOLDING ITS CLAIM TO ESTABLISH KHALSA RAJ.
What you think of sharia law and Iran is of no relevance here because that is not what I am discussing. The discussion is: do women,and as a matter of fact men, have duties and laws established in Sikh scripture? The answer is NO! So how legitimate is the expression "rights" in a religion that has no legal system.

Rajkhalsa, Ranjit Singh's fondness for young boys has been well documented in historical sources from that period including French travellers' accounts who met Ranjit Singh.
 

Tejwant Singh

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Vaheguruseeker, the links you posted were for the most part lies. You posted stuff about Yazidis who are not even Muslims and hence shown your complete ignorance.

Javamard,

Thanks for confirming what I mentioned in my post that you have lost all your credibility as a Muslim and as a person. Now you are up to lying to defend yourself.

Is this one more Islamic trait along with lack of character?

Following are my 2 different posts about Muslim atrocities. Rather than apologiisng for your Muslim brethren, you called the Yazidis not Muslims. Well one can say the same for you. If a person says he/she is a Muslim, a so called proffesor like you saying they are not shows how insecure you are in your own skin. That may be the reson of you hop scotching from one religion to the other. It shows as I said before your myopic mindset.

My first post to show you what happens to the Muslim women. read the word MUSLIM WOMEN.


1. The facts of the Islamic world






Women and girls in Iraq live in constant fear of violence as the conflict intensifies and insecurity spirals. Within their own communities, many women and girls remain at risk of death or injury from male relatives if they are accused of behavior held to have brought dishonor on the family.
Recently, in Bashika, Mosul, hundreds of men beat and stoned a 17 year old woman named Du’a Khalil Aswad to death, in a gruesome example of collective ‘honour killing’. The woman, a member of the Yezidi religion, which is practiced by Kurds in Northern Iraq, ran away from her family to join an Arab Muslim man with whom she had fallen in love and had been meeting secretly, but who rejected her. Damned under the ‘honour’ code, for running away, for choosing outside her own community and for being ultimately rejected, Du’a had nowhere to go.
For a couple of days, she had put up with a local Yezidi tribal leader but to live in peace was not in her destiny. She was abducted and brutally murdered in front of hundreds of men by her relatives — who stripped her body, beat and kicked her, and killed her by crushing her body with rocks and concrete blocks. The police officials too participated in the disgusting communal murder.
Stoning: Is it the part of culture in Iraq?
Death by stoning is slow and painful. Islamic code prescribes that ‘the stone should not be so big as to kill the offender with one or two stones’ and ‘nor should it be as small as pebbles’.
The Islamic groups resort to every possible method to terrorize Iraqi women. Today, stoning is only practiced in order to maintain the submission of its women and those in the lower cast. Also, those impoverished or socially unimportant are punished by stoning.


Silent Killings
There are frequent reports of ‘honor crimes’ in Iraq - in particular in the predominantly Kurdish north of the country. Most victims of ‘honor crimes’ are women and girls who are considered by their male relatives and others to have shamed the women’s families by immoral behavior.
Often grounds for such accusations are flimsy and no more than rumor.
What is the situation like?
The government’s failure to protect women, and enforce laws against criminals, has created a situation where thousands of women become victims of so called honor killings. Violence has risen as a result of patriarchal and religious traditions.
In the 21st century, for such crimes to be carried out in broad daylight is not only a shame on society as whole, but most of all, it is a shame on a government that is unable to protect women from such inhumane and backward practices.
With officials largely silent on the issue except to deny that it occurs, it is unclear how many more women in the province are stoned to death.
The barbaric and violent practice of stoning will continue as long as people will water the cult of Islam, MuHAMmad, which has put his hands everywhere especially in this inhuman practice of ’stoning women to death’ and in imposing uncivilized Sharia Law upon human culture.
Source:: Sikhism Philosophy Network http://www.sikhism.us/showthread.php?t=24065
It forces me to ask a question, can women in Muslim countries ever expect to breathe in the air of self- approbation?

http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/...oran-or-islam/


Your timid unmanly insecure response like a typical insecure Muslim:-

"Vaheguruseeker, your link refers to a famous stoning case in the Yezidi community. The Yezidis are not Muslims at all but are mistaken to be Muslims by ignorant Westeners. I am sorry you have been mislead."

Javamard, your above timid response shows you are lying and misleading people who questio you about Islam. Is that part of your Muslim faith?

Just to defend your lies you even sent me a PM with the same. Next time do not send PM if you are not man enough to respond in the room truthfully.
LOL.... you are laughable or you do not know how to read and you love to lie just to defend the violence in your own religion. Shame! Are all Muslims start behaving like you do when confronted with the the truth.

Then following is my second post about the violence by Muslim men against Muslim women:


2.Javanmarad has been in denial eversince his first post which shows how insecure he is in his own faith that he has been hop scotching from one to the other for quite sometimes.
Source:: Sikhism Philosophy Network http://www.sikhism.us/showthread.php?t=24065

Below are the headlines regarding Muslim women and their treatment by the people of their religion:

1. An american muslim the founder of Bridges TVnetwork beheads his wife in Buffalo NY.
Brutal Irony In New York Woman's Beheading
Brutal Irony In New York Woman's Beheading, Police Say Couple Founded TV Network To Fight Muslim Stereotypes; Husband Suspected Of Killing Her At Office - CBS News


2.Sharia law a danger to women
TheStar.com | Opinion | Sharia law a danger to women

3.Freedom dies as radical Islam advances,It shows dead female victims of honor killings, a kneeling woman in a burqa being executed.www.dcexaminer.com >> Meghan Cox Gurdon

4.I will tell you about another similar horror story.
It's about a Muslim convert who became a polygamist who tortured, starved, imprisoned and beat his three wives and 19 children
More carnage from multiculturalism

This is just the snippet of what happens in the Msulim world daily. What a shame! and people like Javanmarad have the blindfolds on.


Javanmard,

And you timid response once again:-

"Vaheguruseeker, I suggest you take some classes on Islamic law before posting stuff about that subject."


lol... You mean Islamic law says to beat hellout of Muslim women and behead them? You see you fake proffesor how you slip on your on.:) That made no sense as a response and you call yourself a proffesor? Cheeky, arn't you. Proffesor.

Then to top it of one more of your non seniscal justification, one more illitrate after thought to prove how guilty you feel within.:-

"Vaheguruseeker,none of the links you provided have got anything to do with Islamic law. They're just crimes that Islam itself condemns."

Your one more timid response:-

"Vaheguruseeker, honour killings are forbidden in Islam and the other cases you gave links too have nothing to do with Islamic jurisprudence."

Your above response made no sense once again but showed how insecure you are about your own faith.


Javanmard,

Inspite of the facts you kept on lying, I gave you 2 more chances to prove your manlyhood and your rpide Muslim side and asked you to show me which Mullahs in which Mosques of the Muslim countires condemned these violent acts done by your Muslim brethren?

I asked you to show me the Newspapers from the Islamic countries, you as a man with no character said:-

"Vaheguruseeker, the links you posted were for the most part lies. You posted stuff about Yazidis who are not even Muslims and hence shown your complete ignorance."

LoL.. you are funny to say the least. You mean repeating something makes it true?

It is you who is ignorant and insecure and you have shown you lack character.

Prove me wrong by showing the Muslim clergy condemning these violent acts against the people of your own religion. Shame on you that you are a bystander and watch these things happen in your own religion.

As they say in Brazil, Voce e um viado nao um homem.:)

And you call yourself what?:)

Tejwant Singh
 

kds1980

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Adultery is a serious crime for which death is the punishment. Mind you some of these cases may have been judged too harshly. If a woman has been forced by her husband into prostitution that is a different issue and in that case her husband should get punished for it. Adultery is a crime, not just a sin and there is a punishment for it.

So you want to say that if a woman commits adultery then she should be condemned to Death and still you say that there is nothing against women in Islam.

What punishment exists in Sikhism for someone who kills his daughter? Cleaning shoes at the gurdwara? Washing plates in the langar?

Have you ever heard of Guru Panth?If anytime Khalsa Raj is established then Panth itself will decide what punishment is there for people who kill their daughters.

But my point is: there is a legal system based on legal ordinances in scriptures. I didn't join this thread to show that Islam was better. I joined because of the claim of there being "rights" in Sikhism, a religion that DOES NOT HAVE A LEGAL SYSTEM AND IS HENCE INCAPABLE OF UPHOLDING ITS CLAIM TO ESTABLISH KHALSA RAJ.

Now don't pretentend to be innocent You joined this thread to attack sikhism.You already had plenty of discussions with sikhs and you were part of many threads on sikhawarness
Now don't say that you missed this point at that time.

As far as legal system is concerned One do not need a legal system written in scripture's
only
Many problems of legal system arise with time and law has to deal with them accordingly.
I am very much interested That what kind of punishment is written in Islam,quran for committing internet crimes.I am sure you people have already searched Quran and other islamic scripture's as you people only want to follow legal system written in scripture's

What you think of sharia law and Iran is of no relevance here because that is not what I am discussing

This thread is about status of women in sikhism.You derailed this thread that what is written in scripture's about it Now you don't want to discuss islam or shariat laws because you know you can't defend them
 

Javanmard

Banned
Feb 17, 2009
61
1
kds1980 wrote:

So you want to say that if a woman commits adultery then she should be condemned to Death and still you say that there is nothing against women in Islam.
The punishment for adultery in Islam is the same for men and women. Not just women. And yes the punishment for adultery is death.

Have you ever heard of Guru Panth?If anytime Khalsa Raj is established then Panth itself will decide what punishment is there for people who kill their daughters.
On which legal basis will it base its laws. For laws to be established there needs to be a scriptural basis. If not all you have is the musings of imperfect people. In 1925 the Udasis were banned from the Panth and in teh Anandur Resolution they were reintegrated: did the Panth change its mind?
And who is the Panth anyway. The only institution that can claim direct link with Guru Gobind Singh is Budha Dal.

As far as legal system is concerned One do not need a legal system written in scripture's
only
Many problems of legal system arise with time and law has to deal with them accordingly.
Man has to be guided in ALL circumstances by God's law. If not he is outside of God's hukam. The European legal system is based on Roman law and hasn't changed much in terms on its jurisprudential principles. Same with Jewish and Islamic law. For example in Roman law rights of custody used to be based on the principle of "ownership of the field" i.e. a woman's children would belong to the man she marries with. A legal system may change but all these need to be based on principles. These principles in religious systems are to be based on divine revelation. Even with a Guru Panth these decisions must be made on the basis of legal principles otherwise the citizens of that state are faced with an arbitrary system based on the decisions of fallible individuals based on their own will.

This thread is about status of women in sikhism.You derailed this thread that what is written in scripture's about it Now you don't want to discuss islam or shariat laws because you know you can't defend them
From what should I defend sharia against? What are your accusations? State them and maybe we can discuss them. If you are going to state some arguments at least try something better than vaheguruseeker's illogical links such as links about Yazidis.


Vaheguruseeker:
Yazidis are not Muslims. If your American source doesn't know that too bad. if Yazidis kill their own women that is a Yazidi problem not a Muslim problem. And as we say in Portugal:10000 brazileiros valem um viado.


Guru Gobind Singh had 300 masands burnt and thrown in a well in Anandpur Sahib.I don not condemn this because the masands were guilty of a crime. What I want to know is: on what basis was the condemnation issued? What verses of Sikh scripture says that half burning people and throwing them into wells is a punishment for betraying the Guru?
 

spnadmin

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forum members

Off-topic comments, defamatory statements and trash talk have been moved from the thread. Future examples of off-topic comments, defamatory statements and trash talk will also be moved from the thread. Thank you

aad0002
 

Javanmard

Banned
Feb 17, 2009
61
1
For Vaheguruseeker:

This is an example of Iran's top judiciary Ayatollah Shahroudi intervening in favour of people:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]January 2009
[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Equality Now Welcomes News Of The Commutation Of Kobra Najjar’s Stoning But Condemns The Sentence Of 100 Lashings To Take Its Place[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Iranian government has commuted the execution of Kobra Najjar, an Iranian woman sentenced to death by stoning for adultery—a judgment based on the prostitution her abusive husband forced upon her in order to sustain his heroin addiction.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Kobra requested clemency from the Head of the Judiciary, Ayatollah Shahroudi, after her appeal for amnesty was rejected three times by the Iranian Commission of Amnesty. Ayatollah Shahroudi has recently ruled for the stoning sentence to be converted into 100 lashes. Kobra has already served eight years in prison as an accomplice to the murder of her husband who was killed by a sympathetic client, plus a further three years awaiting execution. Kobra has recently suffered from a stroke whilst in prison and has been spending her days under very difficult conditions. Subjecting her to lashes not only violates the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) to which Iran is a party, as it clearly prohibits torture, cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment and punishment, but could cause serious harm and potentially be life-threatening.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]News reports in Iran have also indicated that two sisters, Zohreh and Azar Kabiri, who had previously been lashed as punishment for adultery and subsequently recharged and sentenced to stoning, have had their sentences for stoning overturned due to insufficient evidence and will shortly be released. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Please immediately contact Iran’s Head of Judiciary Ayatollah Shahroudi* welcoming news of Zohreh and Azr Kabiri’s pending release and urging him to commute Kobra’s sentence for lashing and call for her immediate and unconditional release from prison. Call on him to do all that he can to end the cruel punishment of stoning once and for all.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*The contact information below functioned when previously tested, but you may encounter delivery problems so please keep trying to send your message. Thank you for taking action![/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]His Excellency Ayatollah Mahmoud Hashemi Shahroudi
Head of the Judiciary
c/o Ministry of Justice
Park-e Shahr
Teheran
Islamic Republic of Iran
Email: iripr@iranjudiciary.org, irjpr@iranjudiciary.com and info@dadgostary-tehran.ir
Phone: +98 21 22741002, +98 21 22741003, +98 21 22741004, +98 21 22741005[/FONT]
This is not an Islamic website: Equality Now News Alert

In Islam we have laws. If a court gives an unjust ruling, then that ruling may be overturned by the judiciary as is the case in the Islamic Republic of Iran.May I just add that the lashings are to be executed in the following way:
- the hand of the executioner has to be tied to a Qoran so as to prevent him fron hitting hard
- the hits cannot leave any marks

These are the rules.
 

Tejwant Singh

Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jun 30, 2004
5,024
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Henderson, NV.
Javnmarad,

You still do not get it. I told you NOT to send me PM if you are not man enough to interact here, which you have shown you are not. Violence happens everyday against Muslim women in Muslim households and in Muslim countries around the world and you have not shown me a single proof of the Newspaper editorials or the clergy where these violence take place daily condemning these acts as you gleefully said that this is not an Islamic thing to do. Nice slogans but nothing else coming from you and you claim yourself to be a professor? That is funny to say the atleast.

It seems from your repeated post that Islam is not about seeking the TRUTH but to babble falsehoods as you have done.

Voce e um viado, em vez de um homem.


And NO PRIVATE MESSAGES. You do not have the privilege.

Tejwant Singh.
 

spnadmin

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SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
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Once again ...
forum members

Off-topic comments, defamatory statements and trash talk have been moved from the thread. Future examples of off-topic comments, defamatory statements and trash talk will also be moved from the thread.

Thank you.


aad0002
 
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