Support For The Concept Of Reincarnation In Sikhism?

[Satyaban]

Gurmit ji

I am sure I have misunderstood you but I can not see how your following statement sheds any light on the discussion. "Just think, has ever any dead body come to life from graves, which are maintained by Christians, Mussalmaans, some Hindsus?
Has ever an ant given birth to an elephant, or snake to donkey?"

Would any parent forever deny his/her children chance for redemption? Althought that is a rather simplified example I believe our purpose of existence is reunion with the creator. So only having having one chance defeats the purpose.

Peace
Satyaban

 

[spnadmin]

Although I am sure that Satyaban ji appreciates your quest into the nature of karma virinder ji, the article has been posted elsewhere on the forum. It is also likely to lead to a derailment of the discussion of reincarnation to a related but equally important subject of its own.

So I have edited your comment above to include only the link to the article about karma.

If this discussion moves to Karma and away from support for reincarnation then a new thread will be started.

Posters please be guided by this thought. Narayanjot Kaur

 

[Satyaban]

NK ji

I am not one for long posts and try to be brief and to the point without quoting too much literature or scripture. I always like to hear what has been internalized. I do believe the issues of rebirth and karma cannot be separated.

Peace
Satyaban

 

[kaur-1]

Giani ji, what is your understanding of the term "coming and going" (avai jaaee)?

 

[kaur-1]

NK ji

I am not one for long posts and try to be brief and to the point without quoting too much literature or scripture. I always like to hear what has been internalized. I do believe the issues of rebirth and karma cannot be separated.

Peace
Satyaban

For those who do not believe in reincarnation (ie GurSikhee concept of reincarnation) will also have to reject the concept of karma.

If there is only one life, then karma will not apply. Take for example a person born in poverty or crime, drugs, or handicapped etc. Those who believe in one life only are implying that God is playing the game of roll the dice and therefore unjust and unfair.

Its basically throwing the buck back to God and not us.

This will not apply : ਜੇਵੇਹੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਵਦਾ ਤੇਵੇਹੇ ਫਲਤੇ ॥: Jevehe karma kamaavadaa tevehe phalate: One obtains fruits according to the deeds which he does (sggs 317)

Whats the point when we are going back to the SAT anyways!! There is only one life - we came from the SAT and we will go back to the SAT so whats the point?

Too bad you starving and in pain dying child, thats the hand you were dealt by an unjust God playing the game of roll the dice. Its too bad that you have only one life.

 

[spnadmin]

Let's not ignore my request respected forum members. Of course karma cannot be separated from reincarnation.Who ever said they were? Someone did request that the discussions retain their focus. Threaded discussions can keep the focus mainly on one or mainly on the other. However the connection can be made or the thread can suddenly focus mainly on karma. We already saw this misunderstanding occur with a previous poster.

 

[kds1980]

Kanwardeep ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am a bit confused about what you are trying to convey. Who are theseSo, can you please describe the 2 words that you have mentioned above from the Sikhi view point?

1) God

2) soul

I hope you would elaborate whatever you say in your own words if you happen to quote Gurbani in your response.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant ji

I am no magician of words and I always try to write simple when I refered these I was referring to writers of sikhmarg.com which have athiestic interpretation of Guru granth sahib.You also said that I should describe God ,Soul from sikhi point of view.May I ask you is there any standard sikhi point of view?.We all know that Guru granth sahib can be interpretted in thousands of ways so Different sikh sects have different point of view of God and soul.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Tejwant ji

I am no magician of words and I always try to write simple when I refered these I was referring to writers of sikhmarg.com which have athiestic interpretation of Guru granth sahib.You also said that I should describe God ,Soul from sikhi point of view.May I ask you is there any standard sikhi point of view?.We all know that Guru granth sahib can be interpretted in thousands of ways so Different sikh sects have different point of view of God and soul.

Kanwardeep Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am not here to judge anyone what they think or not about reincarnation or if they have atheistic interpretation of SGGS. Only Ik Ong Kaar knows that. No one else can find that out no matter how much one tries. That is why Sikhi is the journey of the individual and each of us carry our own spiritual torch.

So,let me ask you this question in another way then. What are your thoughts as a Sikh about God and Soul?

Please share with us.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Gyani ji

sikhmarg is controlled by Neo Atheist type sikh missionaries.These people now have suddenly discovered That there is no transmigration of soul.My question is Do these people beleive in

1) God

2) soul

If yes then where does that soul goes if does it not merge with waheguru.Or we are going to say that all people will have the same fate after the death.if Yes then why to waste time in following sikhi.even Dr. sahib singh in his teeka has several time mentioned about reincarnation so One could hardly justify that there is no concept of transmigration of soul in sikhism.

To be frank I don't have problem with these neo Atheist sikh missionaries .If someone follows them then its ok.But these people should accept that large part of sikh community does not accept their views.

Guru Piayrio jios,
Gurfateh.

I DONT allow any type of "colouring" to stop me from reading or visiting any site or book or video or movie. Thus I have never refused any Radha Soami literature, any bible literature from visiting "converters"..I ahve Korans presented to me by the Ahmadiyas, I go to Panthic weekly/waheguru network related sites ( to many they must be Solid Panthic Sites and equal perhaps to Gurbani or at least sacred..!!)..I hold the View that NO ONE is all wrong..or all right..each site, each book has something of value..none is absolutley worthless. So Yes Sikh Marg dot com is on my favourite bookmark folder as are those other sites like Tapoban, Damdmai Taksaal, Rara sahib, Nanaksari sites...and i visit and read them all..and come to my own conclusions. That is SIKHI is all about - Gurmatt doesnt restrict one.
The Very first person that i came across with "atheist" views was the Preetlari Author Gurbaksh Singh...who was pushing the idea that Guru Gobind Singh ji was just a Man..and all his battles etc were won due to brillance of miliraty thinking etc etc..and in those days Malayan SIKHS got even the British Govt in Malaya to BAN the Preetlari Magazine as it was supposedly "communist-atheist" anti sikh..even though it was the only Punjabi Magazine of good standard...the thinking was ..we prefer to NOT read anything..IF that is what results form banning preetlari. My dad preferred ANSWERING the Preetlari lekhs through Parchaar..he never beleived in hiding his head in the sand..neither do i.
SIKHS also work on the premise that IF..you tell a lie..or repeat a lie..many times .....people will beleive it as Truth..that is what is happening not only with Sikh Marg..bUT also with people like ME...I have had the Label "Kala afghanist" applied to me..simply becasue I say i did read his books and he is NOT totally WRONG...to many he is NOT TO BE even MENTIONED..much less read !! what height of ignorance. Most of thsoe who so happily apply such labels on others have not bothered to read KA's books...many say the same things about Rozana Spokesman..But keep quiet about the other daily that habitually carries news about Babas, Pir Jormelas, samadh akhand paaths, havans, namdhree guur parvachans, etc etc which are all ANTI-SIKH NEWS on a Daily basis...I dont give two hoots to such biasness.

MY FIRM BELIEF..is..we are Born HUMANS..we have the Unique GIFT of SGGS, GURBANI..which came through the TEN Nanak jamas over a period of 250 Yeras, we have Hundreds of thousands of Martyrs who SHOWED us the Right Way with their Lives. We have been GIFTED a PIO DADDEH DA KHAZANAH..to "OPEN AND SEE"...use the Gurbani Tools to IMPLEMENT CHANGES in our daily lives...and Become GURMUKHS.
Gurbani GUARANTEES that a GURMUKH will NOT REINCARNATE...a GURMUKH WILL NOT BE IN KARMA..the GURMUKH WILL Have his place in SACHEE DARGAH. AND to become a GURMUKH is not easy..it takes every second of our short human life...so only FOOLS will waste time arguing about...wind blowing and leaves fluttering...because at the Bottom Line..ONLY HE KNOWS all the answers we seek..why we waste time in attempting to count the stars..when we know very well that ONLY HE KNOWS ?? MY aim is i am sitting for the EXAM of MY LIFE..and i just cannot afford to keep wondering ..what IF..what IF..i have only limited time to "study"..and i must make sure i pass with flying colours..so that i can come out LAUGHING like Kabir Ji said....and occupy my Sacha Pirr in the Sachi Dargah. PERIOD.

 

[japjisahib04]

Guru Piayrio jios,
Gurfateh.

Gurbani GUARANTEES that a GURMUKH will NOT REINCARNATE...a GURMUKH WILL NOT BE IN KARMA..the GURMUKH WILL Have his place in SACHEE DARGAH. AND to become a GURMUKH is not easy..it takes every second of our short human life...so only FOOLS will waste time arguing about...wind blowing and leaves fluttering...because at the Bottom Line..ONLY HE KNOWS all the answers we seek..why we waste time in attempting to count the stars..when we know very well that ONLY HE KNOWS ?? MY aim is i am sitting for the EXAM of MY LIFE..and i just cannot afford to keep wondering ..what IF..what IF..i have only limited time to "study"..and i must make sure i pass with flying colours..so that i can come out LAUGHING like Kabir Ji said....and occupy my Sacha Pirr in the Sachi Dargah. PERIOD.

That is true Giani Ji, Gurbani guarantees that a Gurmukh will not reincarnate, it is the golden opportunity to avail but where is the place for a papi like me. Guru Nanak has given so many metaphors. Will I reincarnate and be given second chance with more punishment in order to settle my dues, if I am little week. What will happen to this hukam, 'kar kar karna likh lai jao aapai beej aapai hi khao nanak hukmi avai jao' or will lekha jokha of my bad karma will be washed and will be given immunity after end of my journey? Will you simply Laugh like Kabir Ji or will help me to join you. Why Gurbani uses Grace through out SGGS?

Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni
Kuwait

 

[spnadmin]

What will happen to this hukam, 'kar kar karna likh lai jao aapai beej aapai hi khao nanak hukmi avai jao' or will lekha jokha of my bad karma will be washed and will be given immunity after end of my journey? Will you simply Laugh like Kabir Ji or will help me to join you. Why Gurbani uses Grace through out SGGS?

Thanks japjisahib ji

This your statement above needs to be repeated more than once. Why do we forget that there is help to make the journey, and why do we forget to seek that help?

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Sahni ji, gurafteh.
a beautiful post.
Of course Kabir Ji wasnt just laughing alone..he wrote the Bani to help us mortals learn how to laugh along with him..and thats also my life mission..to help others along the way..always in the footsteps of SGGS...in my own way and how i know best..understand Gurbani...follow Gurbani...use Gurbani to change our lives so that Guru Jis Grace will fall upon us..His Nadar is all we need..Chardeekalla ji

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Giani ji, what is your understanding of the term "coming and going" (avai jaaee)?

Kaur Ji.
Gurfateh.

WE "come"..and we "Go". In between is our Human Life Journey.
To make the best of this OPPORTUNITY and become a GURMUKH.
A "GURMUKH" need not only be a "SIKH"...judging that aspect is His job.

 

[kaur-1]

Guru Piayrio jios,
Gurfateh.

I DONT allow any type of "colouring" to stop me from reading or visiting any site or book or video or movie. Thus I have never refused any Radha Soami literature, any bible literature from visiting "converters"..I ahve Korans presented to me by the Ahmadiyas, I go to Panthic weekly/waheguru network related sites ( to many they must be Solid Panthic Sites and equal perhaps to Gurbani or at least sacred..!!)..I hold the View that NO ONE is all wrong..or all right..each site, each book has something of value..none is absolutley worthless. So Yes Sikh Marg dot com is on my favourite bookmark folder as are those other sites like Tapoban, Damdmai Taksaal, Rara sahib, Nanaksari sites...and i visit and read them all..and come to my own conclusions. That is SIKHI is all about - Gurmatt doesnt restrict one.
The Very first person that i came across with "atheist" views was the Preetlari Author Gurbaksh Singh...who was pushing the idea that Guru Gobind Singh ji was just a Man..and all his battles etc were won due to brillance of miliraty thinking etc etc..and in those days Malayan SIKHS got even the British Govt in Malaya to BAN the Preetlari Magazine as it was supposedly "communist-atheist" anti sikh..even though it was the only Punjabi Magazine of good standard...the thinking was ..we prefer to NOT read anything..IF that is what results form banning preetlari. My dad preferred ANSWERING the Preetlari lekhs through Parchaar..he never beleived in hiding his head in the sand..neither do i.
SIKHS also work on the premise that IF..you tell a lie..or repeat a lie..many times .....people will beleive it as Truth..that is what is happening not only with Sikh Marg..bUT also with people like ME...I have had the Label "Kala afghanist" applied to me..simply becasue I say i did read his books and he is NOT totally WRONG...to many he is NOT TO BE even MENTIONED..much less read !! what height of ignorance. Most of thsoe who so happily apply such labels on others have not bothered to read KA's books...many say the same things about Rozana Spokesman..But keep quiet about the other daily that habitually carries news about Babas, Pir Jormelas, samadh akhand paaths, havans, namdhree guur parvachans, etc etc which are all ANTI-SIKH NEWS on a Daily basis...I dont give two hoots to such biasness.

MY FIRM BELIEF..is..we are Born HUMANS..we have the Unique GIFT of SGGS, GURBANI..which came through the TEN Nanak jamas over a period of 250 Yeras, we have Hundreds of thousands of Martyrs who SHOWED us the Right Way with their Lives. We have been GIFTED a PIO DADDEH DA KHAZANAH..to "OPEN AND SEE"...use the Gurbani Tools to IMPLEMENT CHANGES in our daily lives...and Become GURMUKHS.
Gurbani GUARANTEES that a GURMUKH will NOT REINCARNATE...a GURMUKH WILL NOT BE IN KARMA..the GURMUKH WILL Have his place in SACHEE DARGAH. AND to become a GURMUKH is not easy..it takes every second of our short human life...so only FOOLS will waste time arguing about...wind blowing and leaves fluttering...because at the Bottom Line..ONLY HE KNOWS all the answers we seek..why we waste time in attempting to count the stars..when we know very well that ONLY HE KNOWS ?? MY aim is i am sitting for the EXAM of MY LIFE..and i just cannot afford to keep wondering ..what IF..what IF..i have only limited time to "study"..and i must make sure i pass with flying colours..so that i can come out LAUGHING like Kabir Ji said....and occupy my Sacha Pirr in the Sachi Dargah. PERIOD.

Giani ji, this is your statement <<So Since there are no Joons...there is NO REINCARNATION. Period.>> ???

 

[kaur-1]

Kaur Ji.
Gurfateh.

WE "come"..and we "Go". In between is our Human Life Journey.
To make the best of this OPPORTUNITY and become a GURMUKH.
A "GURMUKH" need not only be a "SIKH"...judging that aspect is His job.

Still does not explain your statement "<<So Since there are no Joons...there is NO REINCARNATION. Period.>>"

What happens to a manmukh if there is no reincarnation - Sikhee concept of reincarnation/transmigration that is ?

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

and I dont think being Born Blind..crippled..female...poor...starving..sick..etc etc is God's PUNISHMENT....WHY all these things happen..ONLY HE KNOWS..read the Asa dee vaar concluding shabads about the Chulleh rehan charreh...
Karma and punishment, original sin etc etc are all laien concepts to GURMUTT. The Creator in Gurbani is not vengeful, he is not a punishing conniving evil genius...on the contrary He is LOVE..... epitome of Humility and Love...and HIS GRACE is for all.

 

[lotus lion]

Hi Gyani Jarnail Singh,

Forgive me for asking a second time, but would you mind clearing your stance on what your thoughts are on Reincarnation and what you believe the Guru Granth Sahib teaches about this?

"The Guru Granth Sahib teaches Reincarnation. I believe in Reincarnation. "

The above line is my stance on the topic.

Would it be possible to get a similar one-liner from yourself?

From there, i believe it would be possible to start a discussion.

My best regards,

Lotus

 

[kaur-1]

and I dont think being Born The Creator in Gurbani is not vengeful, he is not a punishing conniving evil genius...on the contrary He is LOVE..... epitome of Humility and Love...and HIS GRACE is for all.

Giani ji, you have already implied God is unjust and unfair by saying that there is only one life!

Please refer to my previous post for this conclusion.

 

[kaur-1]

For those who do not believe in reincarnation (ie GurSikhee concept of reincarnation) will also have to reject the concept of karma.

If there is only one life, then karma will not apply. Take for example a person born in poverty or crime, drugs, or handicapped etc. Those who believe in one life only are implying that God is playing the game of roll the dice and therefore unjust and unfair.

Its basically throwing the buck back to God and not us.

This will not apply : ਜੇਵੇਹੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਵਦਾ ਤੇਵੇਹੇ ਫਲਤੇ ॥: Jevehe karma kamaavadaa tevehe phalate: One obtains fruits according to the deeds which he does (sggs 317)

Whats the point when we are going back to the SAT anyways!! There is only one life - we came from the SAT and we will go back to the SAT so whats the point?

Too bad you starving and in pain dying child, thats the hand you were dealt by an unjust God playing the game of roll the dice. Its too bad that you have only one life.

Giani ji ,how did we get this 'karma of past actions' if there is only one life according to you and sikhmarg?
krmI AwvY kpVw ndrI moKu duAwru ]
karamee aavai kaparraa nadharee mokh dhuaar ||
By the karma of past actions, the robe of this physical body is obtained. By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found.

 

[kaur-1]

Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion

Giani ji

If the most significance mission of our life is just to pay attention and live house holder life, then even animal live house holder life and 99% of human live house holder life. So why the Guru has cautioned us that it is our bareeaa and human form is the only form that has the ability for us to realized God. Journey will end even otherwise whether we pay attention or not but what is the benefit of realizing God.

Though I like your answer. Time is limited as it is ... I want to laugh like Kabir is ... when it is time to go . no regret. But somehow I feel you are intentionaly escaping from the direct answer about reincarnation.

If you permit me we can start from Japjisahib verse karmi avaih kapda nadri mokh duar. Sikhism is a faith of hope and cheers/ Though it affirms karma, it recognizes the possibility of modification of one karma with the grace of the God. It does not lead to despair and defeatism. This is to fulfill the unanswered actions and unfulfilled desires left over from our last lives that have to be balanced. bwsnw bDw Awvy jwvY –entangle with unfulfilled vicious desires mortal comes and goes. Unfinished agenda. So long as the mind has unfulfilled desires or incomplete work of the past life, to which he is insanely attached, he shall remain chained to the cycle of life and death. But it does mean one lives without any desires but what is important is worldly actions are rightful action with controlled desires. Thus mind must remain detached from 'selfish desire'. Because it is not the 'action' in them that troubles or pleases a person, it is the 'result' of an action that troubles or pleases a person. So the escape from reincartional is His grace which is cardinal doctrine of Sabd Guru.

Upon your answer wewill continue.

Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni
Kuwait

quote "But somehow I feel you are intentionaly escaping from the direct answer about reincarnation."

I concur.