Support For The Concept Of Reincarnation In Sikhism?

[raj11]

rwgu gOVI mwlvw mhlw 5
raag gaarree maalavaa mehalaa 5
Raag Gauree Maalwaa, Fifth Mehla:

<> siqgur pRswid ]
ik oa(n)kaar sathigur prasaadh ||
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

hir nwmu lyhu mIqw lyhu AwgY ibKm pMQu BYAwn ]1] rhwau ]
har naam laehu meethaa laehu aagai bikham pa(n)thh bhaiaan ||1|| rehaao ||
Chant the Lord's Name; O my friend, chant it. Hereafter, the path is terrifying and treacherous. ||1||Pause||

syvq syvq sdw syiv qyrY sMig bsqu hY kwlu ]
saevath saevath sadhaa saev thaerai sa(n)g basath hai kaal ||
Serve, serve, forever serve the Lord. Death hangs over your head.

kir syvw qUM swD kI ho kwtIAY jm jwlu ]1]
kar saevaa thoo(n) saadhh kee ho kaatteeai jam jaal ||1||
Do seva, selfless service, for the Holy Saints, and the noose of Death shall be cut away. ||1||

hom jg qIrQ kIey ibic haumY bDy ibkwr ]
hom jag theerathh keeeae bich houmai badhhae bikaar ||
You may make burnt offerings, sacrificial feasts and pilgrimages to sacred shrines in egotism, but your corruption only increases.

nrku surgu duie BuMcnw hoie bhuir bhuir Avqwr ]2]
narak surag dhue bhu(n)chanaa hoe bahur bahur avathaar ||2||
You are subject to both heaven and hell, and you are reincarnated over and over again. ||2||

isv purI bRhm ieMdR purI inhclu ko Qwau nwih ]
siv puree breham ei(n)dhr puree nihachal ko thhaao naahi ||
The realm of Shiva, the realms of Brahma and Indra as well - no place anywhere is permanent.

ibnu hir syvw suKu nhI ho swkq Awvih jwih ]3]
bin har saevaa sukh nehee ho saakath aavehi jaahi ||3||
Without serving the Lord, there is no peace at all. The faithless cynic comes and goes in reincarnation. ||3||

jYso guir aupdyisAw mY qYso kihAw pukwir ]
jaiso gur oupadhaesiaa mai thaiso kehiaa pukaar ||
As the Guru has taught me, so have I spoken.

nwnku khY suin ry mnw kir kIrqnu hoie auDwru ]4]1]158]
naanak kehai sun rae manaa kar keerathan hoe oudhhaar ||4||1||158||
Says Nanak, listen, people: sing the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises, and you shall be saved. ||4||1||158||
ang 214

New here. The above shabad is all on reincarnation.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Kaur-1 ji,

Gur Fateh.

You write:

If there is only one life then its very obvious that its implying that God is playing the game of roll the dice when writing the hukam. This implies that God is unjust and unfair.

Sorry to know that you believe in, seek an unjust, unfair God, where as Ik Ong Kaar is Nirbhau and Nirvair and is sans duality.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Admin]

New here. The above shabad is all on reincarnation.

Dear all, (my apologies for an off-topic reply in this topic's context but it was important)

So, you are a new member? :welcome: My apologies, but before i deactivate your triplicate memberships at SPN one more time... i have to keep public aware of people like you and your gang headed by inder singh...

For the benefit of entire readership, raj11 is none other than juvenile member 'Singh' from Canada, who had publicly displayed his inability to indulge in any dialogue on any issue in hand and bragged about never posting or even visiting SPN... and who along with Inder singh and his gang, shamelessly, did tried to run a miserably failed propaganda campaigns against SPN in direct conspiracy/conjunction with Juvenile forums likes SikhSangat.com and SikhAwareness.com... ...is still loitering around SPN... and now he posts through his triplicate ids and proclaims he is new member here... shows your character... ... it is pertinent to inform you all members here that, recently, he had again visited SPN and quite shamelessly spit venom against the administration in their public profiles (the content were too objectionable to mention here, only a per.vert person can think or write like this... and so we had to deactivate his original account (Singh) but he then create another id inder10 yesterday and now he has created his third id. raj11... and he thinks we would not know... Sorry, but i had to write this obituary for you... RIP

 

[Archived_Member_19]

The shabad has been deleted. Forum rules require both Gurmukhi and English translation with Ang or Panna. You are welcome to repost the shabad. Thank you; Narayanjot Kaur

 

[japjisahib04]

Kaur-1 ji,

Gur Fateh.

You write:



Sorry to know that you believe in, seek an unjust, unfair God, where as Ik Ong Kaar is Nirbhau and Nirvair and is sans duality.

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant Ji,
Nirvair does not mean he let you harm His creation. That is why guru sahib says Puni paapi akhan naheh - virtures and vice are not mere words for us to say, all deeds done with utmost concentration blended together with mind and body are recorded instantly- what we do so shall we reap.

Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni
Kuwait

 

[Satyaban]

Namaste

That is one of the most powerful photos I have seen. I mean it speaks volumes. Man's inhumanity to man, where is God?, where are the NGOs, where is the rest of the world, how did and do WE allow this to happen. Also the vulture is nature, life goes on, which takes on the role as the bad guy waiting for the child to die. The vulture is only following its dharma, its duty, its nature. Most of the questions I mentioned above would not be asked without knowing some history of the area.

Without a history what are the questions raised? Still there is the question "Where is God?" or "How could God allow this?" and some others.

The question "Where is God?" would be coming from those in doubt or lack of understanding. Where those who have some understanding or enlightenment would say "Yes, yes this is God" as is everything. Indeed this poor child pulls mightily at the heartstrings.

Where was God?, right there. Why was that child born in those circumstances? Did someone draw the shortest straw for him, I think not.
My answer would be karma and perhaps an early death will help bring things heading on a path to balance and relieve suffering. What else can explain children born with defects and others struck down seemingly out of the blue. Also being born into wealth and comfort is not always a boon and can present the individual with multiple challenges and desperation and despair.

So I believe that all that lives dies and all that dies is reborn.

Peace
Satyaban

 

[spnadmin]

Dear all, (my apologies for an off-topic reply in this topic's context but it was important)

So, you are a new member? :welcome: My apologies, but before i deactivate your triplicate memberships at SPN one more time... i have to keep public aware of people like you and your gang headed by inder singh...

For the benefit of entire readership, raj11 is none other than juvenile member 'Singh' from Canada, who had publicly displayed his inability to indulge in any dialogue on any issue in hand and bragged about never posting or even visiting SPN... and who along with Inder singh and his gang, shamelessly, did tried to run a miserably failed propaganda campaigns against SPN in direct conspiracy/conjunction with Juvenile forums likes SikhSangat.com and SikhAwareness.com... ...is still loitering around SPN... and now he posts through his triplicate ids and proclaims he is new member here... shows your character... ... it is pertinent to inform you all members here that, recently, he had again visited SPN and quite shamelessly spit venom against the administration in their public profiles (the content were too objectionable to mention here, only a per.vert person can think or write like this... and so we had to deactivate his original account (Singh) but he then create another id inder10 yesterday and now he has created his third id. raj11... and he thinks we would not know... Sorry, but i had to write this obituary for you... RIP

Amazing Aman ji. Amazing.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

THE TRUTH ALWAYS OUTS,,,Guru Nanak Ji taught US that...a Sikh should at least know that basic TEACHING of our Founder !! Shameless NANG Mallang....has a beautiful Obituary...Truly Rest in Peace !!:}8-::}8-:ha

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

gyani ji

here is a tuk from Bhagat Ravidas ji

ਬਹੁਤ ਜਨਮ ਬਿਛੁਰੇ ਥੇ ਮਾਧਉ ਇਹੁ ਜਨਮੁ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੇ ਲੇਖੇ ॥
बहुत जनम बिछुरे थे माधउ इहु जनमु तुम्हारे लेखे ॥
Bahuṯ janam bicẖẖure the māḏẖa▫o ih janam ṯumĥāre lekẖe.
For so many incarnations, I have been separated from You, Lord; I dedicate this life to You.

SGGS pp 694

what are the janams in which bhagat ji was separated from Lord?

If I understand your way of interpretation - does Bhagat ji mean many Janams within this life?

What were the other Janams ? why no mention ?? ONLY "THIS" Janam...
cant the ..
next" janam do just as well ?? Whats so special about THIS Janam ??

Because there is ONLY THIS "JANAM"....as a MEANS to an END...Merger. Not the one BEFORE..and Not the One AFTER !! THIS ONLY.

Any Guru/Bhagt bani also saying..NEVER MIND..Dont worry..NEXT JANAM also can...do....whats the Big deal..anyway..got so many chances...if you dont make it in human birth..plenty of others....84 LAKH chances in fact !! No lottery offers that many opportunities ??

IF the ONLY ONE BUS..is going to pass by and pick me up..THATS the ONE I am going to Take...anyone else wanting to "wait" for the next one is welcome.

By the way..these "janams" are..our BIRTH..as a DOG..wehn we let greed take over...the dog that is barking inside us unless we tell it to shut up...or the endless pig ...elephant of sex...desire...etc etc. KARTOOT Passu ki..Manush Jaat Human BODY..but ANIMAL ACTIONS..those "janams" SEPARATE us form the Creator...Human ACTIONS in Human BODY are the "janmas" that help us towards our Goal. Whenever the Bhagat has a birth of these animal actions inside him..those are WASTED Janams...wasted MOMENTS...He BEGS that this Human body be Fully UTILISED in HUMAN ACTIONS..and no more animal janams take over...that is what I understand from the Tuk of Bhaagat ji. Whenever I Wake Up in the Morning...ready for a animal action (Burreh kaam ko utth khaloyah)..i am "born"..and when that animal action desire DIES..it is the END of that Janam..and REBIRTH of a Human Janam (prayer/meditation). IN a Single HOUR it is possible to...BE SEPARATED from HIM....through the birth of so many animal janams...:hmm::hmm:

 

[Satyaban]

Gyani ji

If we live everyday of our life as best we can keeping worship and doing no harm everything else should take care of itself shouldn't it. So what we believe about rebirth is of no consequence although someone who has greatly offended The Creator or whose offenses can not be atoned in a lifetime may find some consolation. Although it is quite a stretch I as a father would never give up on my children but compare that to The Creator's perfect love for us, "He" would not give up on us. If you believe as I do.

There are also other aspects such as grieving. Okay some body dies and we may miss that person's personality, the tangible effects of their love etc, however there is only death for the physical body, if you believe as I do. So doesn't our grieving become an act of selfishness or self serving, it is for the living not for the dead.

We could continue into why some are born into hopeless poverty, crippled in body or mind, or born into prosperity. It can not be random chance or just that child's bad luck, if you believe as I do. How would you attempt to explain such challenges at the start of a child's life? Is it an unfortunate clash of genes, did this child come from the shallow end of the gene pool, a problem of chromosomes sure but why that soul or jiva?

Peace
Satyaban

 

[Tejwant Singh]

What were the other Janams ? why no mention ?? ONLY "THIS" Janam...
cant the ..
next" janam do just as well ?? Whats so special about THIS Janam ??

Because there is ONLY THIS "JANAM"....as a MEANS to an END...Merger. Not the one BEFORE..and Not the One AFTER !! THIS ONLY.

Any Guru/Bhagt bani also saying..NEVER MIND..Dont worry..NEXT JANAM also can...do....whats the Big deal..anyway..got so many chances...if you dont make it in human birth..plenty of others....84 LAKH chances in fact !! No lottery offers that many opportunities ??

IF the ONLY ONE BUS..is going to pass by and pick me up..THATS the ONE I am going to Take...anyone else wanting to "wait" for the next one is welcome.

By the way..these "janams" are..our BIRTH..as a DOG..wehn we let greed take over...the dog that is barking inside us unless we tell it to shut up...or the endless pig ...elephant of sex...desire...etc etc. KARTOOT Passu ki..Manush Jaat Human BODY..but ANIMAL ACTIONS..those "janams" SEPARATE us form the Creator...Human ACTIONS in Human BODY are the "janmas" that help us towards our Goal. Whenever the Bhagat has a birth of these animal actions inside him..those are WASTED Janams...wasted MOMENTS...He BEGS that this Human body be Fully UTILISED in HUMAN ACTIONS..and no more animal janams take over...that is what I understand from the Tuk of Bhaagat ji. Whenever I Wake Up in the Morning...ready for a animal action (Burreh kaam ko utth khaloyah)..i am "born"..and when that animal action desire DIES..it is the END of that Janam..and REBIRTH of a Human Janam (prayer/meditation). IN a Single HOUR it is possible to...BE SEPARATED from HIM....through the birth of so many animal janams...:hmm::hmm:

Gyani ji,

Guru Fateh.

Some people fail to understand a couple of things while keeping on beating the drums about reincarnation and 84 Lakh joons as their blind faith without understanding or giving it a deeper thought about what Gurbani says about it. They pick up a couple of verses of the Shabad while ignoring the rest of it and sticking to its literal translations which are misleading and incorrect many a times rather than trying to grasp the true message of our Gurus', which is a sad thing to notice.

Both these concepts are derived from Hinduism and our Gurus have acknowledged what Hindus believed in. The following Shabad by Bhagat Ravidas needs to be understood rather than used as the end justifying the means of their obstinacy on this blind faith which has nothing to do with Sikhi.

Bhagat Ravidas ji

ਬਹੁਤ ਜਨਮ ਬਿਛੁਰੇ ਥੇ ਮਾਧਉ ਇਹੁ ਜਨਮੁ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੇ ਲੇਖੇ ॥
बहुत जनम बिछुरे थे माधउ इहु जनमु तुम्हारे लेखे ॥
Bahuṯ janam bicẖẖure the māḏẖa▫o ih janam ṯumĥāre lekẖe.
For so many incarnations, I have been separated from You, Lord; I dedicate this life to You.

SGGS pp 694

We all know that Bhagat Ravidas belonged to the Chamar caste which is the lowest of the lowest caste in Hinduism. No matter how many times a Chamar is born in a Chamar family, he/she remains a chamar. Bhagat Ravidas was not even allowed to enter the temple to worship.

While being aware of his birth in a low caste family with no way out in Hinduism, he finally found Ik Ong Kaar within who is Nirbhau and Nirvair and realised that despite his birth and destiny decided by the Hindu caste system which believes in reincarnation and no matter which 84 lakh joons he would come in, but as a human he shall remain a Chamar whose even shadow was disdained by the stiff upper lipped Brahmins.

So, this Shabad can be interpreted and looked into through many different Gurmat angles if we do not try to step on our own toes by justifying the ends through the means and trying to prove a belief which is acknowledged by Sikhi but at the same time, Gurbani has given us the tools how to get rid of this silly mindset.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Satyaban]

Tejwant ji

When you said "sticking to its literal translations which are misleading and incorrect many a times rather than trying to grasp the true message of our Gurus' which is a sad thing to notice." were you suggesting that the translators did not know what they were doing or that their translations were not honest and straight?

I do not speak Punjabi nor do I know your scriptures, although I joined SPN because of my belief that we shared much in common, so I put my trust in you when I ask what English word or words would you have used instead of "incarnations" which appears to be accepted by many?

Thanking you in advance.

Peace
Satyaban

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Tejwant Ji,
Nirvair does not mean he let you harm His creation. That is why guru sahib says Puni paapi akhan naheh - virtures and vice are not mere words for us to say, all deeds done with utmost concentration blended together with mind and body are recorded instantly- what we do so shall we reap.

Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni
Kuwait

Mohinder ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am a bit confused by your response above. Who is harming whom here? Please read my original post to Kaur-1 ji regarding the picture to find the response. What does Nirvair mean according to you in Mool manter? Please elaborate it.

We all know Ik Ong Kaar is neither unfair nor unjust, however humans are unfair and unjust and this child in the picture is the typical example of that.

IK Ong Kaar is sans duality. If you disagree with that, please share your thoughts regarding it.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Tejwant ji

When you said "sticking to its literal translations which are misleading and incorrect many a times rather than trying to grasp the true message of our Gurus' which is a sad thing to notice." were you suggesting that the translators did not know what they were doing or that their translations were not honest and straight?

I do not speak Punjabi nor do I know your scriptures, although I joined SPN because of my belief that we shared much in common, so I put my trust in you when I ask what English word or words would you have used instead of "incarnations" which appears to be accepted by many?

Thanking you in advance.

Peace
Satyaban

Satayban ji,

Guru Fateh.

I do not know whether you are aware or not that Gurbani is written in a poetic form which requires interpretation to change it into prose so one can grasp the true message of the writer.

Literal translation means words translated literally into another langauge while disregarding what the author is trying to convey in the original language , especially when it is written in a poetic form.

Most of the literal translations of SGGS are poor because either they are done emulating archaic biblical language of thy, thou etc. etc or they are done by people who lack either English skills or Gurmukhi skills.

If a person who does not know the language nor the scriptures, then it becomes a shot in the dark in a very superficial manner which does not do any justice to the beautiful scriptures called SGGS, but rather to the contrary.

So, I am sorry to say that your question about one word "incarnation" in the interpretation of the whole Shabad bears no relevance.

Tejwant Singh.

PS: Thanks for asking the question. Please feel free to ask as many as you wish to in order to understand Gurbani and under the same token, never feel reluctant to respond to the questions asked to you as well. This is the only way people can interact and the whole essence of interacting is in the curiosity to learn which requires asking questions.

 

[Satyaban]

Tejwant ji

So what are you saying about these translators? Aren't the translations done by knowledgeable Sikhs and not some hacks?

Perhaps it was my error to target one word as others have because words can be tempered by other words and "poetic license", but I draw some assurance in that I am not alone.

I can not enter a discourse about your scriptures, my interest was in your opinion of the translators and maybe improvements you could make.

As always peace
Satyaban

 

[Inder singh]

Dear all, (my apologies for an off-topic reply in this topic's context but it was important)

So, you are a new member? :welcome: My apologies, but before i deactivate your triplicate memberships at SPN one more time... i have to keep public aware of people like you and your gang headed by inder singh...

For the benefit of entire readership, raj11 is none other than juvenile member 'Singh' from Canada, who had publicly displayed his inability to indulge in any dialogue on any issue in hand and bragged about never posting or even visiting SPN... and who along with Inder singh and his gang, shamelessly, did tried to run a miserably failed propaganda campaigns against SPN in direct conspiracy/conjunction with Juvenile forums likes SikhSangat.com and SikhAwareness.com... ...is still loitering around SPN... and now he posts through his triplicate ids and proclaims he is new member here... shows your character... ... it is pertinent to inform you all members here that, recently, he had again visited SPN and quite shamelessly spit venom against the administration in their public profiles (the content were too objectionable to mention here, only a per.vert person can think or write like this... and so we had to deactivate his original account (Singh) but he then create another id inder10 yesterday and now he has created his third id. raj11... and he thinks we would not know... Sorry, but i had to write this obituary for you... RIP

Do not talk nonsense. Being owner of this site display some maturity. I do not belong to any gang. I do not write on your site. please spare my name being dragged into your dirty politics.

 

[spnadmin]

Do not talk nonsense. Being owner of this site display some maturity. I do not belong to any gang. I do not write on your site. please spare my name being dragged into your dirty politics.

Inder Singh ji

Before judging the maturity of another forum member, consider the value of facts and truthfulness to your credibility. Our statistics indicate that you have posted 511 times since July 2, 2008. That works out to slightly more than 1 post a day in the past year and 28 days.

Our eye-witness readings of posts on SikhAwareness in particular indicate that you have enjoined various other members of that forum to collaborate with you in a dishonest game of flaming across forum boundaries, badly slandering our admin, leaders, mentors and forum members for nothing more than open discussion.

You can try to blow me off with overbearing and patronizing rejoinders. The forum won't buy it.

 

[Inder singh]

naryanjot kaur ji

I used to write here but since i left i did not write anymore. Neither i associate with any of the member here after i left.

I get information letter from your site and i do visit it sometimes. i am astonished to note that my name is being falsely implicated as a leader of some gang. That is the reason i have replied to that.

 

[spnadmin]

naryanjot kaur ji

I used to write here but since i left i did not write anymore. Neither i associate with any of the member here after i left.

I get information letter from your site and i do visit it sometimes. i am astonished to note that my name is being falsely implicated as a leader of some gang. That is the reason i have replied to that.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/25684-slander-of-dasam-granth-religious-fanaticism.html

 

[kds1980]

Gyani ji,

Guru Fateh.

Some people fail to understand a couple of things while keeping on beating the drums about reincarnation and 84 Lakh joons as their blind faith without understanding or giving it a deeper thought about what Gurbani says about it. They pick up a couple of verses of the Shabad while ignoring the rest of it and sticking to its literal translations which are misleading and incorrect many a times rather than trying to grasp the true message of our Gurus', which is a sad thing to notice.



Tejwant Singh

Tejwant ji

It is not some people Even people like Dr.Sahib whose teeka is considered one of the best to understand Gurbani mentioned about reincarnation in His interpretations of shabad.