- Jan 31, 2011
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mundahug
Support For The Concept Of Reincarnation In Sikhism?
mundahug
Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion
English Translation:
Shalok: If you chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, the Messenger of Death will have nothing to say to you. O Nanak, the mind and body will be at peace, and in the end, you shall merge with the Lord of the world. ||1|| Chhant: Let me join the Society of the Saints - save me, Lord! With my palms pressed together, I offer my prayer: give me Your Name, O Lord, Har, Har. I beg for the Lord's Name, and fall at His feet; I renounce my self-conceit, by Your kindness.
I shall not wander anywhere else, but take to Your Sanctuary. O God, embodiment of mercy, have mercy on me. O all-powerful, indescribable, infinite and immaculate Lord Master, listen to this, my prayer. With palms pressed together, Nanak begs for this blessing:
O Lord, let my cycle of birth and death come to an end.
||1|| I am a sinner, devoid of wisdom, worthless, destitute and vile. I am deceitful, hard-hearted, lowly and entangled in the mud of emotional attachment. I am stuck in the filth of doubt and egotistical actions, and I try not to think of death. In ignorance, I cling to the pleasures of woman and the joys of Maya.
My youth is wasting away, old age is approaching, and Death, my companion, is counting my days. Prays Nanak, my hope is in You, Lord; please preserve me, the lowly one, in the Sanctuary of the Holy.
||2|| I have wandered through countless incarnations, suffering terrible pain in these lives.
I am entangled in sweet pleasures and gold. After wandering around with such great loads of sin, I have come, after wandering through so many foreign lands. Now, I have taken the protection of God, and I have found total peace in the Name of the Lord. God, my Beloved, is my protector; nothing was done, or will ever be done, by myself alone. I have found peace, poise and bliss, O Nanak; by Your mercy, I swim across the world-ocean. ||3|| You saved those who only pretended to believe, so what doubts should Your true devotees have? By every means possible, listen to the Praises of the Lord with your ears. Listen with your ears to the Word of the Lord's Bani, the hymns of spiritual wisdom; thus you shall obtain the treasure in your mind.
Attuned to the Love of the Lord God, the Architect of Destiny, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord. The earth is the paper, the forest is the pen and the wind is the writer, but still, the end of the endless Lord cannot be found. O Nanak, I have taken to the Sanctuary of His lotus feet. ||4||5||8||
There is only one God, He is Omnipresent.
amarjit
English Translation:
Shalok: If you chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, the Messenger of Death will have nothing to say to you. O Nanak, the mind and body will be at peace, and in the end, you shall merge with the Lord of the world. ||1|| Chhant: Let me join the Society of the Saints - save me, Lord! With my palms pressed together, I offer my prayer: give me Your Name, O Lord, Har, Har. I beg for the Lord's Name, and fall at His feet; I renounce my self-conceit, by Your kindness.
I shall not wander anywhere else, but take to Your Sanctuary. O God, embodiment of mercy, have mercy on me. O all-powerful, indescribable, infinite and immaculate Lord Master, listen to this, my prayer. With palms pressed together, Nanak begs for this blessing:
O Lord, let my cycle of birth and death come to an end.
||1|| I am a sinner, devoid of wisdom, worthless, destitute and vile. I am deceitful, hard-hearted, lowly and entangled in the mud of emotional attachment. I am stuck in the filth of doubt and egotistical actions, and I try not to think of death. In ignorance, I cling to the pleasures of woman and the joys of Maya.
My youth is wasting away, old age is approaching, and Death, my companion, is counting my days. Prays Nanak, my hope is in You, Lord; please preserve me, the lowly one, in the Sanctuary of the Holy.
||2|| I have wandered through countless incarnations, suffering terrible pain in these lives.
I am entangled in sweet pleasures and gold. After wandering around with such great loads of sin, I have come, after wandering through so many foreign lands. Now, I have taken the protection of God, and I have found total peace in the Name of the Lord. God, my Beloved, is my protector; nothing was done, or will ever be done, by myself alone. I have found peace, poise and bliss, O Nanak; by Your mercy, I swim across the world-ocean. ||3|| You saved those who only pretended to believe, so what doubts should Your true devotees have? By every means possible, listen to the Praises of the Lord with your ears. Listen with your ears to the Word of the Lord's Bani, the hymns of spiritual wisdom; thus you shall obtain the treasure in your mind.
Attuned to the Love of the Lord God, the Architect of Destiny, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord. The earth is the paper, the forest is the pen and the wind is the writer, but still, the end of the endless Lord cannot be found. O Nanak, I have taken to the Sanctuary of His lotus feet. ||4||5||8||
There is only one God, He is Omnipresent.
amarjit
Archived_member14
SPNer
Harry ji,
I thought before switching off the computer last night, that you might refer to Ambarsaria ji’s ideas. ;-)
But I wonder whether these ideas were what you always believed in or that you only discovered and got attracted to them in the course of your stay here. Because if it is the latter, then your arguments will not carry as much weight. Therefore feel free to introduce anything else, and you can even drop this one if you like……
But you are nevertheless thinking in terms of the future, although here you do it in an attempt to justify a belief that you are comfortable with. Now I am not saying that thinking about the future is useful, but dwelling in thoughts about the past and the future will continue for those of us with little or no wisdom and this is regardless of what we believe in. But I think what you are saying is that belief in reincarnation (in my case, rebirth) does in fact encourage thinking about the future and therefore best not to believe in it.
What if I told you that proliferation of thought is motivated by wrong understanding, by clinging or by conceit? What if I added that this happens not only in relation to thoughts about the past and future but also the present?
I'll state this for now and wait to see if you are interested in further discussion:
Belief in the continuation of distinct set of mental phenomena from one life to the next is based on a particular kind of observation about the here and now. In other words, if one were to make a correct observation / study of one's experience, the corollary of this is belief in past and future lives. This implies that any resistance to the belief must be due to some mistaken view about the way things are.
One thing you need to note though and not misunderstand is that I am not talking about belief without understanding, but with understanding. Two, I distinguish between not believing but at the same time being open to the possibility, as against outright rejection due to being influenced by some underlying wrong understanding and holding other set of beliefs.
I thought before switching off the computer last night, that you might refer to Ambarsaria ji’s ideas. ;-)
But I wonder whether these ideas were what you always believed in or that you only discovered and got attracted to them in the course of your stay here. Because if it is the latter, then your arguments will not carry as much weight. Therefore feel free to introduce anything else, and you can even drop this one if you like……
But you are nevertheless thinking in terms of the future, although here you do it in an attempt to justify a belief that you are comfortable with. Now I am not saying that thinking about the future is useful, but dwelling in thoughts about the past and the future will continue for those of us with little or no wisdom and this is regardless of what we believe in. But I think what you are saying is that belief in reincarnation (in my case, rebirth) does in fact encourage thinking about the future and therefore best not to believe in it.
What if I told you that proliferation of thought is motivated by wrong understanding, by clinging or by conceit? What if I added that this happens not only in relation to thoughts about the past and future but also the present?
I'll state this for now and wait to see if you are interested in further discussion:
Belief in the continuation of distinct set of mental phenomena from one life to the next is based on a particular kind of observation about the here and now. In other words, if one were to make a correct observation / study of one's experience, the corollary of this is belief in past and future lives. This implies that any resistance to the belief must be due to some mistaken view about the way things are.
One thing you need to note though and not misunderstand is that I am not talking about belief without understanding, but with understanding. Two, I distinguish between not believing but at the same time being open to the possibility, as against outright rejection due to being influenced by some underlying wrong understanding and holding other set of beliefs.
- Jan 31, 2011
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Kamalaji,
In Sikhism mind reading is not something that we try and perfect, perhaps you could give us a hint to whom you are directing this at, and at which point
Having said that, I have no personal problem making my frustration clear at Gurdwaras that think involving Hindu traditions is in some way a forward move
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- Jan 31, 2011
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- 55
Confusedji,
I read your post with my wife next to me, and although she is not Sikh, I trust her internal compass, and find myself guided by her frequently when her thoughts are in tandem with what I believe to be Sikhi.
When I was in my 20's I had a strong belief in reincarnation, to the point where I embraced death as a release, and in fact flirted with it strongly as a means of strength, and as a show of contempt for life and its game, I viewed life as a card game, and had no fear of folding, the only issue was when exactly to fold, many times I tried to fold, but the game was not over, in the end, I rejected God, spirituality and reincarnation in its entirety and concentrated on the needs of others, I came back into Sikhism less than a year ago. One of the major attractions was that there was a place within Sikhism for all that I had learned, and I could call myself a Sikh again with some pride. I do no think the subject of reincarnation within Sikhism is a major issue, it is an extremely minor issue to me, but I do feel that life must be lived on the basis that this is the only chance We get to experience life in our current format, I am at peace with the concept of nothingness after death, however, I am of a mind that is open enough to accept that anything is possible, however it seems extremely important to live on the basis of accepted nothingness.
I do think in terms of the future, and those thoughts are that life MUST be lived on the basis of finality, it is not to justify a belief, but to focus my energies on the here and now, on today, and not on some final outcome.
It is interesting that you mention focusing on the past and future, this is something I have managed to distance myself from recently, but as with all my learning, it has not come solely from study, or wisdom, everything I know is the result of being burnt, I am not as wise as many on this forum, nor am I intelligent, I touch things, they burn, that is how I gain my education, and that is how I continue to gain my education. At present I have a dying dog whom I love very much, the experience is teaching me much, it saddens me that my dog has to die so that I may learn, but I feel I am absorbing everything he has learned through my interaction with him at present, although that may make me sound quite cold, it is the opposite, there must be some point to his life, and his death, I will not mourn him, he will be with me forever.
It is not that rebirth encourages thinking about the future, it is more that it detracts from the present.
If you told me that proliferation of thought is motivated by wrong understanding, also in the present, I would agree with you, and laud you for your ability to see that, and attempt to embrace it.
Regarding your last two paragraphs, I would say that nothingness could also be viewed as a continuation, by its very nature nothingness could also be viewed as everythingness.
As a Sikh it is important for me to live every day as the Creators apprentice, with qualities of Creator, qualities of the Gurus, when I do that successfully, I find myself in Mukti, I have a forcefield around me, and I feel in tune with Creator, feelings of detachment, a living death, and I believe 100% in what I am doing, and how I understand why I am doing it, I have to confess again that the whole subject of life after death seems unimportant while there is living to do.
Confusedji, you are an intelligent man, I hope my attempt at discourse with you makes some sense
peacesign
I read your post with my wife next to me, and although she is not Sikh, I trust her internal compass, and find myself guided by her frequently when her thoughts are in tandem with what I believe to be Sikhi.
When I was in my 20's I had a strong belief in reincarnation, to the point where I embraced death as a release, and in fact flirted with it strongly as a means of strength, and as a show of contempt for life and its game, I viewed life as a card game, and had no fear of folding, the only issue was when exactly to fold, many times I tried to fold, but the game was not over, in the end, I rejected God, spirituality and reincarnation in its entirety and concentrated on the needs of others, I came back into Sikhism less than a year ago. One of the major attractions was that there was a place within Sikhism for all that I had learned, and I could call myself a Sikh again with some pride. I do no think the subject of reincarnation within Sikhism is a major issue, it is an extremely minor issue to me, but I do feel that life must be lived on the basis that this is the only chance We get to experience life in our current format, I am at peace with the concept of nothingness after death, however, I am of a mind that is open enough to accept that anything is possible, however it seems extremely important to live on the basis of accepted nothingness.
I do think in terms of the future, and those thoughts are that life MUST be lived on the basis of finality, it is not to justify a belief, but to focus my energies on the here and now, on today, and not on some final outcome.
It is interesting that you mention focusing on the past and future, this is something I have managed to distance myself from recently, but as with all my learning, it has not come solely from study, or wisdom, everything I know is the result of being burnt, I am not as wise as many on this forum, nor am I intelligent, I touch things, they burn, that is how I gain my education, and that is how I continue to gain my education. At present I have a dying dog whom I love very much, the experience is teaching me much, it saddens me that my dog has to die so that I may learn, but I feel I am absorbing everything he has learned through my interaction with him at present, although that may make me sound quite cold, it is the opposite, there must be some point to his life, and his death, I will not mourn him, he will be with me forever.
It is not that rebirth encourages thinking about the future, it is more that it detracts from the present.
If you told me that proliferation of thought is motivated by wrong understanding, also in the present, I would agree with you, and laud you for your ability to see that, and attempt to embrace it.
Regarding your last two paragraphs, I would say that nothingness could also be viewed as a continuation, by its very nature nothingness could also be viewed as everythingness.
As a Sikh it is important for me to live every day as the Creators apprentice, with qualities of Creator, qualities of the Gurus, when I do that successfully, I find myself in Mukti, I have a forcefield around me, and I feel in tune with Creator, feelings of detachment, a living death, and I believe 100% in what I am doing, and how I understand why I am doing it, I have to confess again that the whole subject of life after death seems unimportant while there is living to do.
Confusedji, you are an intelligent man, I hope my attempt at discourse with you makes some sense
peacesign
Harryji
A very nice reasoning you have given there.
We shouldn't be worrying or trying to justify reincarnation, as we DO have a lot of living to do.
I have come to the conclusion, thanks to your firm opposing belief that what happens after our heart stops beating should not dictate the way we live this life.
Yes, to me personally, lots of matters make somekind of self logical sense with a belief.
Now, secondly, because these make sense and give me some relief, I am more encouraged and free to move forward in my goal to embrace sikhism and God to the Maximum achievable.
So, if the believing or non believing helps you move forward, then we should just let it be.
Some of us progress faster than others and we shouldn't be slowing each other down.
In all honesty, when I first came to spn, I did in ignorance assume that all will have the same views.
I realised that some see black, whereas others see white. Black and white has a very fine line that seperates them. But it is only us that see this difference. To the lord, they are both equivalent, and go very well together just like day and night, sun and moon. Without light a full day cannot be completed, likewise without darkness a full 24 hr day cannot be completed (not talking about Alaska, it's not far from here!)
So as long as the beliefs don't knock us off our tracks, I realise that I should in fact encourage others with differing views to continue as they are as long as they stay on their correct track.
Thanks
Sat kartar
Lucky Singh
A very nice reasoning you have given there.
We shouldn't be worrying or trying to justify reincarnation, as we DO have a lot of living to do.
I have come to the conclusion, thanks to your firm opposing belief that what happens after our heart stops beating should not dictate the way we live this life.
Yes, to me personally, lots of matters make somekind of self logical sense with a belief.
Now, secondly, because these make sense and give me some relief, I am more encouraged and free to move forward in my goal to embrace sikhism and God to the Maximum achievable.
So, if the believing or non believing helps you move forward, then we should just let it be.
Some of us progress faster than others and we shouldn't be slowing each other down.
In all honesty, when I first came to spn, I did in ignorance assume that all will have the same views.
I realised that some see black, whereas others see white. Black and white has a very fine line that seperates them. But it is only us that see this difference. To the lord, they are both equivalent, and go very well together just like day and night, sun and moon. Without light a full day cannot be completed, likewise without darkness a full 24 hr day cannot be completed (not talking about Alaska, it's not far from here!)
So as long as the beliefs don't knock us off our tracks, I realise that I should in fact encourage others with differing views to continue as they are as long as they stay on their correct track.
Thanks
Sat kartar
Lucky Singh
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Archived_member14
SPNer
Harry ji,
But this may be because you had a wrong understanding with regard to the idea about past and future lives.
Had you understood for example, that good and bad deeds must produce results anytime in the future, you'd not then think of death as being a release. Release from what? From your present troubles perhaps, but not realizing for example, that this very thinking with desire and aversion itself are cause for continued existence, and unpleasant ones at that. And while life is made of so much that is the stuff of continued existence (namely, good and bad deeds) which must produce results in the form of sense experiences and rebirth, to deny past and future lives must reflect lack of understanding as to what “life” really is.
And what indeed is life? It is a moment of consciousness accompanied by host mental factors arisen to experience one or another object, one at a time. But the nature of this is that it arises and falls away and must condition another consciousness in its place without any gap. So really, there is death and rebirth even now, and this can be understood for what it is. This is the reason why I suggested in my last message, that belief in past and future lives is a natural consequence of a correct understanding about life now.
And if you will note Harry ji, your thinking about death as release, this may well be motivated by the kind of underlying view which has lead you later on to believe in “nothingness”. It is not surprising though since this may be a very deeply held view coming from way in the past. And as I remarked before, it is in the nature of one who has yet to have right understanding, that his mind darts around and finds recourse in what otherwise are very different views.
Your belief in nothingness has negative consequence which I'd like to discuss about. But I do not want to through too many ideas at you at once, so I'll stop now and will wait for a response from you to see if you'd like me to say more.
Again I’d like to point out that I do not ask you to believe in past and future lives, what I ask you, is to question you “rejection”. Not to believe because one thinks that one does not understand is not bad. But to reject because one thinks that one understanding but in fact doesn't, this can't be good.
But this may be because you had a wrong understanding with regard to the idea about past and future lives.
Had you understood for example, that good and bad deeds must produce results anytime in the future, you'd not then think of death as being a release. Release from what? From your present troubles perhaps, but not realizing for example, that this very thinking with desire and aversion itself are cause for continued existence, and unpleasant ones at that. And while life is made of so much that is the stuff of continued existence (namely, good and bad deeds) which must produce results in the form of sense experiences and rebirth, to deny past and future lives must reflect lack of understanding as to what “life” really is.
And what indeed is life? It is a moment of consciousness accompanied by host mental factors arisen to experience one or another object, one at a time. But the nature of this is that it arises and falls away and must condition another consciousness in its place without any gap. So really, there is death and rebirth even now, and this can be understood for what it is. This is the reason why I suggested in my last message, that belief in past and future lives is a natural consequence of a correct understanding about life now.
And if you will note Harry ji, your thinking about death as release, this may well be motivated by the kind of underlying view which has lead you later on to believe in “nothingness”. It is not surprising though since this may be a very deeply held view coming from way in the past. And as I remarked before, it is in the nature of one who has yet to have right understanding, that his mind darts around and finds recourse in what otherwise are very different views.
Your belief in nothingness has negative consequence which I'd like to discuss about. But I do not want to through too many ideas at you at once, so I'll stop now and will wait for a response from you to see if you'd like me to say more.
Again I’d like to point out that I do not ask you to believe in past and future lives, what I ask you, is to question you “rejection”. Not to believe because one thinks that one does not understand is not bad. But to reject because one thinks that one understanding but in fact doesn't, this can't be good.
Archived_member14
SPNer
Lucky Singh ji,
Yes, let's not slow each other down. And the only way that this will happen less and less, is by developing our own right understanding. The best help we can give to anyone is in sharing what we understand of the Truth. But an elephant stuck in the mud can't pull out another elephant also stuck in the mud, since an attempt to do so, will only lead to each sinking deeper. And how do we come to determine whether we are on solid ground or standing in the mud? Not easy isn't it?
Therefore before we can think in terms of whether or not we are slowing anyone down, should we not first find out if in fact we and the other are moving in the right direction?
I think it best that you realize that thinking this way is just what "you" do. You find comfort in it the particular thought, and only for the occasion, but in reality this can't be a statement of Truth can it?
If you seek to study a particular path and not another, this must be because you see that it delivers a result the other can't. If you feel the need to correct some misunderstanding, this must be because you see it as having negative consequence. So why suddenly want to believe that it is all OK? Does this not in fact reflect uncertainty and doubt?
Good / bad, right / wrong are not relative to each other, but absolute. Kindness is kindness and can at no time be bad or wrong, likewise hatred is hatred and always wrong. Right understanding is opposed to wrong understanding and each have very different consequence regardless of which context we put the one in in an attempt to justify it.
This must sound like a virtue to you, but is it not more like wishful thinking? What if it is in fact a case of ignorance and attachment seeking to validate its own existence?
It is not easy at all Lucky ji, given the extent of ignorance that we've accumulated. Let us however not make it more difficult by trying to find resolution in what can only be reflection of wrong understanding about the way things are. Because like it or not, more than any other kind of wrong, this is a powerful fuel that drives this wheel of existence spinning harder and for longer.
Yes, let's not slow each other down. And the only way that this will happen less and less, is by developing our own right understanding. The best help we can give to anyone is in sharing what we understand of the Truth. But an elephant stuck in the mud can't pull out another elephant also stuck in the mud, since an attempt to do so, will only lead to each sinking deeper. And how do we come to determine whether we are on solid ground or standing in the mud? Not easy isn't it?
Therefore before we can think in terms of whether or not we are slowing anyone down, should we not first find out if in fact we and the other are moving in the right direction?
I think it best that you realize that thinking this way is just what "you" do. You find comfort in it the particular thought, and only for the occasion, but in reality this can't be a statement of Truth can it?
If you seek to study a particular path and not another, this must be because you see that it delivers a result the other can't. If you feel the need to correct some misunderstanding, this must be because you see it as having negative consequence. So why suddenly want to believe that it is all OK? Does this not in fact reflect uncertainty and doubt?
Good / bad, right / wrong are not relative to each other, but absolute. Kindness is kindness and can at no time be bad or wrong, likewise hatred is hatred and always wrong. Right understanding is opposed to wrong understanding and each have very different consequence regardless of which context we put the one in in an attempt to justify it.
This must sound like a virtue to you, but is it not more like wishful thinking? What if it is in fact a case of ignorance and attachment seeking to validate its own existence?
It is not easy at all Lucky ji, given the extent of ignorance that we've accumulated. Let us however not make it more difficult by trying to find resolution in what can only be reflection of wrong understanding about the way things are. Because like it or not, more than any other kind of wrong, this is a powerful fuel that drives this wheel of existence spinning harder and for longer.
Gyani Ji
My take on ਪ੍ਰਸ਼ਨ: "ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲਛਮੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਸਰਪ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦਾ ਕੀ ਅਰਥ ਹੈ?" is quite different. First of all we must know what is 'aant kaal'. Is it the last moment in old age, young age or childhood? Or is it the time when I conspire to seize other wealth or is it the the time when I decided to move to top floor to jump or is it the time when I actually died.
Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni
Kuwait
My take on ਪ੍ਰਸ਼ਨ: "ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲਛਮੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਸਰਪ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦਾ ਕੀ ਅਰਥ ਹੈ?" is quite different. First of all we must know what is 'aant kaal'. Is it the last moment in old age, young age or childhood? Or is it the time when I conspire to seize other wealth or is it the the time when I decided to move to top floor to jump or is it the time when I actually died.
Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni
Kuwait
- Aug 28, 2010
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Here the reference of ANT KAALi does not mean the last moment in lold age or the last moment of death.It referes to a "Period of Duration " from Birth to the last moment of Death.
The meaning so becomes clear from the grammar of the word KAALi,if it was for the last moment the word would be KAALu(with matra of Aukad under its last letter)
Prakash.S.Bagga
Is re-incarnation a Myth
Do past lives affect us?
.Do past lives affect us?
LESSONS FROM GOD -Do Past Lives affect us
.
.
.
I was totally fed up with the Aircraft Salesman.
....We had purchased an aircraft from him, however he
...... was being extremely rude, unreasonable. In fact in
......... the aircraft industry he has a name for being very unreasonable.
.
Babaji help me "Why Is he so unreasonable?"
.
I was suddenly taken into this man's past life.
.
We were in Arabia, looking down into a Market.
.... Amongst much Hustle and Bartering,
........ I saw a teenage Arab boy being pushed from stall to stall.
The market traders were shouting at him, abusing him.
....... He was being traumatised daily - becoming angrier day by day!
.
. I became aware this Moslem teenager was none other than the salesman
......... (who in this life time is a staunch Christian).
.
I was shown the traumas he had faced in previous lifetimes had
manifested in subsequent life times, because he refused to forgive and forget.
.
Had he learnt to forgive & forget, the anger and frustrations would
have reduced in his future rebirths!
.have reduced in his future rebirths!
In this Lesson from Babaji we learn :
.
We must learn to Forgive and Forget,
otherwise in our future rebirth we will face the same situations until we learn the Lesson.
..
The other Lesson Babaji teaches us is The only religion is Religion of love.
In different life times we have been born as Hindu, Sikh, Moslem, Christian, etc.
.
There is only one religion, the religion of Love;
There is only one language, the language of the Heart;
There is only one caste, the caste of Humanity;
There is only one law, the law of Karma;
There is only one God, He is Omnipresent.
English Translation:
Shalok: If you chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, the Messenger of Death will have nothing to say to you. O Nanak, the mind and body will be at peace, and in the end, you shall merge with the Lord of the world. ||1|| Chhant: Let me join the Society of the Saints - save me, Lord! With my palms pressed together, I offer my prayer: give me Your Name, O Lord, Har, Har. I beg for the Lord's Name, and fall at His feet; I renounce my self-conceit, by Your kindness.
I shall not wander anywhere else, but take to Your Sanctuary. O God, embodiment of mercy, have mercy on me. O all-powerful, indescribable, infinite and immaculate Lord Master, listen to this, my prayer. With palms pressed together, Nanak begs for this blessing:
O Lord, let my cycle of birth and death come to an end.
||1|| I am a sinner, devoid of wisdom, worthless, destitute and vile. I am deceitful, hard-hearted, lowly and entangled in the mud of emotional attachment. I am stuck in the filth of doubt and egotistical actions, and I try not to think of death. In ignorance, I cling to the pleasures of woman and the joys of Maya.
My youth is wasting away, old age is approaching, and Death, my companion, is counting my days. Prays Nanak, my hope is in You, Lord; please preserve me, the lowly one, in the Sanctuary of the Holy.
||2|| I have wandered through countless incarnations, suffering terrible pain in these lives.
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I
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Bhai Kirtiya Ji
March 16, 2012 by Sikhs Source: tuhitu.blogspot.in
Sakhi Series :- 182 ( Bhai Kirtiya Ji )
One day after the morning congregation was over a man brought a large bear into the darbar of Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. The man wanted to give a performance with his bear before Guru Sahib and the sangat and as a consequence asked for permission. On being permitted to do so he began to wrestle with his bear. After a while he used his stick to make the bear do all sorts of tricks.
At the time a Sikh called Bhai Kirtia Ji was doing chaur seva over Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. As the bear did it's tricks Bhai Kirtia Ji would begin to laugh out loudly. Towards the end of the performance Guru Sahib turned to Bhai Kirtia and asked him, "Bhai Kirtia do you not recognise the bear?" Bhai Kirtia looked confused and said, "Guru Ji it is a bear I have never seen" Guru Sahib smiled and said, "Bhai Kirtia it is your father Bhai Gurdas".
Upon hearing this Bhai Kirita was really surprised and upset. He folded his hands together and humbly said to Guru Sahib, "O Guru of the world, my father always did seva in your holy darbar. He would get up early in the morning and recite his prayers. He also served the ninth King, Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Tegh Bahahdur Ji Maharaj. Having done such dedicated seva how can this be the reward given to him? If this is his fate what fate awaits someone like me? Please be kind and tell me why my father ended up in this unfortunate position after serving the house of Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj with such love and devotion."
Guru Ji said, "It is correct that your father had served Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Tegh Bahadhur Ji Maharaj devotedly. But on one occasion, while he was distributing karah prasad, a poor Gursikh was passing by loading cane sugar on his cart. He visited the Guru on his way while his oxen moved his cart.
That Gursikh who was in a hurry, after paying his respects to Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Tegh Bahadhur Ji Maharaj and the sangat begged for some prasad but your father refused to give him any. The Gursikh again requested but instead of giving him Parshaad your father reprimanded him for making the request again and again and angrily said "Why are you behaving like a bear?". The Gursikh was hurt.
He picked up a small piece of prasad which had fallen on the floor and uttered, 'Waheguru', and went away asking Akaal Purakh why some Sikhs of Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj had forgotten the true spirit of Sikhi.
A few days after this incident your father died and on account of his behaviour with the Gursikh was born again as the bear who sits in front of us today." But because of his Sewa and serving Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji he has reached here today in front of the sangat.
On hearing these words of Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj the entire congregation felt pity for Bhai Gurdas Ji and collectively they begged Guru Ji to somehow redeem Bhai Gurdas Ji from that sort of life. Guru Sahib smiled at his Sikhs and turned towards the owner of the bear and asked him what price he was willing to sell the bear?
The owner of the bear agreed to part with the animal for 200 rupees. Guru Sahib took 200 rupees from his own pocket and paid the owner of the bear.
After this the bear sat at the feet of Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. Guru Sahib then got some karah prasad prepared which was distributed to all the sangat. Guru Sahib fed the bear a bit of prasad.
A few seconds after Guru Ji had done this the bear went to sleep for the last time and Bhai Gurdas Ji's soul was liberated by that King of this world and the next.
March 16, 2012 by Sikhs Source: tuhitu.blogspot.in
Sakhi Series :- 182 ( Bhai Kirtiya Ji )
At the time a Sikh called Bhai Kirtia Ji was doing chaur seva over Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. As the bear did it's tricks Bhai Kirtia Ji would begin to laugh out loudly. Towards the end of the performance Guru Sahib turned to Bhai Kirtia and asked him, "Bhai Kirtia do you not recognise the bear?" Bhai Kirtia looked confused and said, "Guru Ji it is a bear I have never seen" Guru Sahib smiled and said, "Bhai Kirtia it is your father Bhai Gurdas".
Upon hearing this Bhai Kirita was really surprised and upset. He folded his hands together and humbly said to Guru Sahib, "O Guru of the world, my father always did seva in your holy darbar. He would get up early in the morning and recite his prayers. He also served the ninth King, Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Tegh Bahahdur Ji Maharaj. Having done such dedicated seva how can this be the reward given to him? If this is his fate what fate awaits someone like me? Please be kind and tell me why my father ended up in this unfortunate position after serving the house of Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj with such love and devotion."
Guru Ji said, "It is correct that your father had served Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Tegh Bahadhur Ji Maharaj devotedly. But on one occasion, while he was distributing karah prasad, a poor Gursikh was passing by loading cane sugar on his cart. He visited the Guru on his way while his oxen moved his cart.
That Gursikh who was in a hurry, after paying his respects to Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Tegh Bahadhur Ji Maharaj and the sangat begged for some prasad but your father refused to give him any. The Gursikh again requested but instead of giving him Parshaad your father reprimanded him for making the request again and again and angrily said "Why are you behaving like a bear?". The Gursikh was hurt.
He picked up a small piece of prasad which had fallen on the floor and uttered, 'Waheguru', and went away asking Akaal Purakh why some Sikhs of Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj had forgotten the true spirit of Sikhi.
A few days after this incident your father died and on account of his behaviour with the Gursikh was born again as the bear who sits in front of us today." But because of his Sewa and serving Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji he has reached here today in front of the sangat.
On hearing these words of Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj the entire congregation felt pity for Bhai Gurdas Ji and collectively they begged Guru Ji to somehow redeem Bhai Gurdas Ji from that sort of life. Guru Sahib smiled at his Sikhs and turned towards the owner of the bear and asked him what price he was willing to sell the bear?
The owner of the bear agreed to part with the animal for 200 rupees. Guru Sahib took 200 rupees from his own pocket and paid the owner of the bear.
After this the bear sat at the feet of Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. Guru Sahib then got some karah prasad prepared which was distributed to all the sangat. Guru Sahib fed the bear a bit of prasad.
A few seconds after Guru Ji had done this the bear went to sleep for the last time and Bhai Gurdas Ji's soul was liberated by that King of this world and the next.
so will any bear cat dog brought before Dhan Dhan Guru Granth sahib Ji and fed the karrah Parshad..straight away go to SLEEP for the "...LAST TIME"....? Has this ever happened anywhere in nay Gurdwara sahib ??? IF Not..why NOT ??
Isnt Dhan Dhan SGGS the Very exact SAME GURU as Guru Gobind Singh Ji ?? WHY such "miracles" cant happen ??
But fear NOT....the REAL MIRACLE that Guru Gobind Singh JI actually PERFORMED will be REPEATED once again on MARCH 31st in PATIAL JAIL of Punjab when Sardar Balwant Singh RAJOANNA SAHIB kisses the Hangmans ROPE WILLINGLY and with LOVE of a SHAHEED...."going to sleep for the Last Time with a LIONS ROAR as Guru Gobind Singh ji taught US.
Have a LOOK at the Sahibzadah Ajit Singh Ji, Jhujaar Singh Ji battling the REAL LIVING DEMONS on the Battlefields of Chamkaur...LOOK at the Sahibzadahs Jorawar singh fateh Singh STARING DEATH in the face..and SMILING when they go to sleep for the last time...those are REAL MIRACLES..not bears smiling while eating karrah parhsaad..we SIKHS are being made a FOOL of just as the bear was made a fool of and made to perform...
SHAME on mindless people who believe in such mindless rubbish. STRONG words..yes and no apologies. The Living GURU SGGS is for us to read, vichaar and FOLLOW in PRACTISE...and now where does Gurbani/Guru/gurmat advocate such feedings of karahparahsads to make bears go to sleep..for last time or first time...THAT power lies in HIS HANDS.japposatnamwaheguru:
Isnt Dhan Dhan SGGS the Very exact SAME GURU as Guru Gobind Singh Ji ?? WHY such "miracles" cant happen ??
But fear NOT....the REAL MIRACLE that Guru Gobind Singh JI actually PERFORMED will be REPEATED once again on MARCH 31st in PATIAL JAIL of Punjab when Sardar Balwant Singh RAJOANNA SAHIB kisses the Hangmans ROPE WILLINGLY and with LOVE of a SHAHEED...."going to sleep for the Last Time with a LIONS ROAR as Guru Gobind Singh ji taught US.
Have a LOOK at the Sahibzadah Ajit Singh Ji, Jhujaar Singh Ji battling the REAL LIVING DEMONS on the Battlefields of Chamkaur...LOOK at the Sahibzadahs Jorawar singh fateh Singh STARING DEATH in the face..and SMILING when they go to sleep for the last time...those are REAL MIRACLES..not bears smiling while eating karrah parhsaad..we SIKHS are being made a FOOL of just as the bear was made a fool of and made to perform...
SHAME on mindless people who believe in such mindless rubbish. STRONG words..yes and no apologies. The Living GURU SGGS is for us to read, vichaar and FOLLOW in PRACTISE...and now where does Gurbani/Guru/gurmat advocate such feedings of karahparahsads to make bears go to sleep..for last time or first time...THAT power lies in HIS HANDS.japposatnamwaheguru:
- Jan 31, 2011
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Bhai Kirtiya Ji
March 16, 2012 by Sikhs Source: tuhitu.blogspot.in
Sakhi Series :- 182 ( Bhai Kirtiya Ji )
One day after the morning congregation was over a man brought a large bear into the darbar of Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. The man wanted to give a performance with his bear before Guru Sahib and the sangat and as a consequence asked for permission. On being permitted to do so he began to wrestle with his bear. After a while he used his stick to make the bear do all sorts of tricks.
This goes against my understanding of Sikhism, as far as I can tell Sikhi has always treated animals with respect, even in hunting there can still be respect, but watching a bear do tricks while being threatened with a stick is something that does not sit good with me, I have my doubts the tenth master and associated Sikhs would sit round enjoying this.
At the time a Sikh called Bhai Kirtia Ji was doing chaur seva over Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. As the bear did it's tricks Bhai Kirtia Ji would begin to laugh out loudly. Towards the end of the performance Guru Sahib turned to Bhai Kirtia and asked him, "Bhai Kirtia do you not recognise the bear?" Bhai Kirtia looked confused and said, "Guru Ji it is a bear I have never seen" Guru Sahib smiled and said, "Bhai Kirtia it is your father Bhai Gurdas"
Upon hearing this Bhai Kirita was really surprised and upset. He folded his hands together and humbly said to Guru Sahib, "O Guru of the world, my father always did seva in your holy darbar. He would get up early in the morning and recite his prayers. He also served the ninth King, Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Tegh Bahahdur Ji Maharaj. Having done such dedicated seva how can this be the reward given to him? If this is his fate what fate awaits someone like me? Please be kind and tell me why my father ended up in this unfortunate position after serving the house of Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj with such love and devotion."
I like Sikhism for the simple reason I feel it is not a reward/punishment based religion, you wake up, you do the best you can, you reap the consequences, good or bad. I am no great charitable person, but I have the greatest admiration for Mrs, who spends her day hunting out people to help, for no other reason than it being the right thing to do, if anything I think she would be offended that there would be a reward for this behaviour, it would belittle and minimise the effect of her good work, it would turn it into a competition, the only reward is watching the difference you make and knowing you eased anothers problems.
Guru Ji said, "It is correct that your father had served Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Tegh Bahadhur Ji Maharaj devotedly. But on one occasion, while he was distributing karah prasad, a poor Gursikh was passing by loading cane sugar on his cart. He visited the Guru on his way while his oxen moved his cart.
That Gursikh who was in a hurry, after paying his respects to Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Tegh Bahadhur Ji Maharaj and the sangat begged for some prasad but your father refused to give him any. The Gursikh again requested but instead of giving him Parshaad your father reprimanded him for making the request again and again and angrily said "Why are you behaving like a bear?". The Gursikh was hurt.
He picked up a small piece of prasad which had fallen on the floor and uttered, 'Waheguru', and went away asking Akaal Purakh why some Sikhs of Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj had forgotten the true spirit of Sikhi.
A few days after this incident your father died and on account of his behaviour with the Gursikh was born again as the bear who sits in front of us today." But because of his Sewa and serving Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji he has reached here today in front of the sangat.
This does not sit well with me, it is an insult to every handicapped person, every person who has suffered, every starving child, every woman who has been raped in a war, the underlying gist is that you are being punished for something you are not even aware of.
On hearing these words of Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj the entire congregation felt pity for Bhai Gurdas Ji and collectively they begged Guru Ji to somehow redeem Bhai Gurdas Ji from that sort of life. Guru Sahib smiled at his Sikhs and turned towards the owner of the bear and asked him what price he was willing to sell the bear?
Miracles, reincarnation...., what happened to the pragmatic and 'can do' attitude that for me defines Sikhism.
The owner of the bear agreed to part with the animal for 200 rupees. Guru Sahib took 200 rupees from his own pocket and paid the owner of the bear.
After this the bear sat at the feet of Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. Guru Sahib then got some karah prasad prepared which was distributed to all the sangat. Guru Sahib fed the bear a bit of prasad.
A few seconds after Guru Ji had done this the bear went to sleep for the last time and Bhai Gurdas Ji's soul was liberated by that King of this world and the next.
As a man of God, I have only the hugest respect for you, Amarjitji, your message of love and unity comes from the heart, that I can tell, but as a historian, well, there are many stories and sakhis that, in my view, show the Gurus in a false light, and are only propagated for one reason, and one reason alone, and that is the integration of Sikhism into Hinduism, this is a classic story that has all the magic ingredients to show just how Vedic Sikhism is, no doubt there is a story for almost every facet of Hindu Sikhism, from the alleged worship of Hindu Goddesses to Karma. When I read such stories, I sense only manipulation and subterfuge.
Sakhi's - Every single one was written at least 100 years after the last Guru's demise. They are extremly unreliable.
The Varan by Bhai Gurdas in contrast are written while the Guru's were around.
The Varan by Bhai Gurdas in contrast are written while the Guru's were around.
Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion
Isn't it a scientific fact the stagnant water gets polluted and the flowing water not. Why and how it becomes a Brahminical philosophy? Wrong to say that all the hindu pilgrimages are on the banks of the rivers because of this reason only. All the civilisations were established on the river banks. Sikhism is a scientific pilosophy. That is why it was more appealing to masses long back, now a days religion is more dynamic concept ready to change. as shown by various blogs on this site.
Isn't it a scientific fact the stagnant water gets polluted and the flowing water not. Why and how it becomes a Brahminical philosophy? Wrong to say that all the hindu pilgrimages are on the banks of the rivers because of this reason only. All the civilisations were established on the river banks. Sikhism is a scientific pilosophy. That is why it was more appealing to masses long back, now a days religion is more dynamic concept ready to change. as shown by various blogs on this site.
harcharanjitsinghdhillon
SPNer
- Oct 18, 2012
- 124
- 81
there is no reincarnation, but the real defination sikhism should use is transmigration of souls.. that means we can drop back wards into animal kingdom, because god is powerfull here.. only manmukhs usually will believe in reincarnation.. reincarnation means will always receive human birth,, here god s will is not seen, only individual will exist...gurmukhs should use correct terms like transmigration of souls
- Jan 31, 2011
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That is quite a lot of definitive statement there, not all Sikhs believe in reincarnation or transmigration, some believe in total death, but to be honest, does it make any difference? We get one shot at finding the correct way to behave, think, speak, act, after that its game over regardless.
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