The 4 Classes Of Sikhs And The Destruction Of Sikhism

[Harry Haller]

Sikhji,

It is quite ridiculous to brand all mona sikhs as antisikhs, this is flirting with the same notion that all non mona sikhs are perfect sikhs. We all cut our hair for different reasons, I cut mine because primarily I hold the image of the turbanned sikh in extremely high regard, and, quite simply, I do not reach the required level of sikhi that I may wear that crown of kings. My father, on the other hand does, and I respect him hugely not for his turban, but for what qualifies him to wear it.

Your posting actually encourages people to dwell more on the physical and social aspects of sikhism than the more intimate relationship with the self, and attempting to reach the spirit within.

If I may be so bold, in order of achievement, for me the order goes something like this

1. Accept the concept of a creator, and attempt to communicate with the pure spirit within.
2. Make peace with the five thieves, years ago, I would have said do battle with the five thieves, but it is easier, to me anyway, to accept that the five thieves are there, all the time, as an opinion, but not as a desire. Its a halfway house built on understanding and moderation. Be able to discriminate between the voice of the spirit and the voice of the thieves
3. Fill yourself with love, for the creator, for yourself, and for the people round you, exchange anger for firmness, and aggression for defence. Accept that it is not what happens to you that is important, it is how you deal with it.
4. Keep your mind pure and clean, even one lingering look on a woman who is not your wife is a blot on your mind. Thoughts, they say are not as important as actions, I disagree, it all starts with what is happening in your head, regardless how long your hair is.
5. Now you are ready to wear the crown of kings, take amrit, and explore the magnificence of the relationship between man, the spirit, and the creator, and ultimately leave behind the childish ways of man, and reach for the image of yourself reflected in the spirit, that once stood before you in tatters, an unreachable dream, now you can be yourself, the person you were born to be, a sikh

 

[kds1980]

Mona Sikh ,turbaned Sikh is more emotional issue for Sikh community than spiritual one.Sikhs very well know that if they accept the concept of Mona Sikhs then almost the entire Youth will become clean shaven and this is something that Sikh community is not ready and gets emotional

 

[Ishna]

Harry Haller ji, I take my hat off to you sir! Very well said, some good food for thought in there for myself too.

 

[Harry Haller]

Mona Sikh ,turbaned Sikh is more emotional issue for Sikh community than spiritual one.Sikhs very well know that if they accept the concept of Mona Sikhs then almost the entire Youth will become clean shaven and this is something that Sikh community is not ready and gets emotional

There are no mona sikhs, just incomplete ones

I am not lauding the concept of sikhi without kesh, A sikh without kesh though,is no more incomplete than a keshdari sikh with with an unclean mind

To the idea that the entire sikh youth would become clean shaven, I would say, let them become clean shaven, the percentage that returns to the fold as fully functioning khalsa would be higher than if they kept kesh out of fear or social ridicule.,

Having said that , kdsji, I live in the UK, in an area where the nearest Gurdwara is 25 miles away, consequently I know nothing about tradition or social pressures either way, the only sikhs I interact with are my parents. I know about spirit, and I know about honour, but little about dignity.

I never quite got into the whole god-fearing thing, god to me was not someone to be scared of, more someone to love. I think our youth need to feel the same way about kesh. Too many are in fear of it, ie, I will not cut my hair, or I will anger someone, my parents, god, etc. A better way forward is to teach our youth to love thier kesh, and if they wish to cut it, to go right ahead, it is only the attraction of rebellion most times, once you have overcome that fear, and learned to love, maybe no youth would consider cutting it, and they would understand the sacrifices made for them to have this luxery.

I dare say the act of rebellion works both ways, if they passed a law in the uk banning turbans, I would be one of the first to wear one, but not for the right reasons, anymore than the right reason for keeping kesh is fear and ridicule

 

[kds1980]

Harry haler ji

Theory and practical world are two different things.From past 150 years Sikh leaders were afraid that Sikhism will get assimilated into Hinduism.It looks like now their fear is becoming reality.In India the only factor that distinguishes Sikhs from Hindu's is their turban.Do you know harry haler ji How many monay sikhs are their in bollywood? Plenty as Actors ,directors, producers and the funny thing is they too never hesistated to make mockery of Turbaned Sikhs in their Films.They themselves or their children inter marry with non sikhs and don't even give Sikh name to their children


Once a Hindu told me that he helped Sikhs in 1984 riots , he said many cut their hair ,
then he said that that those who cut their hair even started smoking .now what is 5he connection between cutting hair and smoking.It is just those people felt that those people are liberated.

Anyway personally I don't care about Turbaned or monay Sikhs.I know That future of Sikhism is quite bleak in India and may be in 40-50 years they will get assimilated in Hinduism.Only divine miracle can save sikhism

 

[Harry Haller]

kdsji,

I put it to you that a lot of non monay sikhs have little in the way of faith, they see sikhism as a social club and refrain from embracing the spritual aspects of sikhi, instead embracing the social aspects. The problem with this is when you get to a point where your faith is questioned, ie the riots of 84, you have little spritual substance to actually get you through, and for that reason, you cut your hair, you have a smoke, not because you want to become more western, but because you simply do not believe that a god for whom you kept your hair, could stand around and witness the rape, death and pillage around you.

Ironically here in the west, smoking is becoming more and more socially inacceptable, there is definately a backlash against smokers, it is extremely unfashionable.

I think you are being a bit bleak about the future, but then you are in India, and I am not, so in the absence of any first hand information, I will have to bow down to your local knowledge, however if only a divine miracle can save sikhism, then that is what we must pray for.

Sikhism is a very young religion, I think our biggest problem is that todays youth know nothing about it. When I was in my 20's I read many books about life, philosophy, many that I took to my heart, why is it that only when I have entered my 40's, I am now being presented with ideals, theories and philosphies that make my books seem amateur, and they were there all along, I never ever knew or expected that the spiritual side of sikhism actually unlocks the doors to the spirit and the creator, regardless of the social aspects.

Educate our youth as to the spiritual and personal benefits of sikhism, let them want to wear turbans in pride, not because they have to, but because spiritually they connect with 500 years of knowledge and information that is unavailable in any other book or religion.

Those that you say become hindus, good luck to them, I hope they find salvation in hinduism, no one should be with us, who does not want to be, but educating the young singhs and kaurs should be paramount if you want to maintain a modern and dynamic culture.

 

[kds1980]

kdsji,

I put it to you that a lot of non monay sikhs have little in the way of faith, they see sikhism as a social club and refrain from embracing the spritual aspects of sikhi, instead embracing the social aspects. The problem with this is when you get to a point where your faith is questioned, ie the riots of 84, you have little spritual substance to actually get you through, and for that reason, you cut your hair, you have a smoke, not because you want to become more western, but because you simply do not believe that a god for whom you kept your hair, could stand around and witness the rape, death and pillage around you.

Its true that that many Sikhs see sikhism as social club ,but as long as raise their children as Sikhs they are contribuiting in keepoing Sikhism alive.

Sikhism is a very young religion, I think our biggest problem is that todays youth know nothing about it. When I was in my 20's I read many books about life, philosophy, many that I took to my heart, why is it that only when I have entered my 40's, I am now being presented with ideals, theories and philosphies that make my books seem amateur, and they were there all along, I never ever knew or expected that the spiritual side of sikhism actually unlocks the doors to the spirit and the creator, regardless of the social aspects.

Does your way of Thinking is same as in 20s.The fact is Younger generation have very little interest in 20s ,it is only in later life they move toward their religion

Those that you say become hindus, good luck to them, I hope they find salvation in hinduism, no one should be with us, who does not want to be, but educating the young singhs and kaurs should be paramount if you want to maintain a modern and dynamic culture.

It is not like they convert to hinduism ,because of social factors,media bollywood ,friends etc.they will draw toward it

Let me tell you funny incident .just a few days back me and my younger brother were watching horror film at night, after the film my brother said I am afraid and I started laughing ,I said I know paath, few hindu mantra's,muslim kalma and christian prayer.I said if any ghost will come I am sue he will be afraid of any.My brother said I don't know anything then he said wait I know few lines of Hanuman chalisa which he heard in TV and films and I said good try this if ghost come:grinningsingh:

 

[Harry Haller]

KDSji

Its true that that many Sikhs see sikhism as social club ,but as long as raise their children as Sikhs they are contribuiting in keepoing Sikhism alive.

I disagree, they are keeping a social club alive, not sikhi

Does your way of Thinking is same as in 20s.The fact is Younger generation have very little interest in 20s ,it is only in later life they move toward their religion

My way of thinking was the same, I was hungry for an explanation of how and why I felt inside, in the end, I found my meaning of life in the books of Herman Hesse, particularly The Steppenwolf.


It is not like they convert to hinduism ,because of social factors,media bollywood ,friends etc.they will draw toward it

are these people a loss to sikhi or any religion?

Kdsji, you seem worried that the house of cards that represents "sikhs only in appearance" is about to come crashing down, I say, let it come crashing down, lets do away with the false traditions and the ridiculous social aspects of sikhism, let it be replaced with a true reflection of what the 10 Gurus attempted to teach us, would that be so bad?

 

[kds1980]

Does your way of Thinking is same as in 20s.The fact is Younger generation have very little interest in 20s ,it is only in later life they move toward their religion

My way of thinking was the same, I was hungry for an explanation of how and why I felt inside, in the end, I found my meaning of life in the books of Herman Hesse, particularly The Steppenwolf.

I am not a normal person.

are these people a loss to sikhi or any religion?

Kdsji, you seem worried that the house of cards that represents "sikhs only in appearance" is about to come crashing down, I say, let it come crashing down, lets do away with the false traditions and the ridiculous social aspects of sikhism, let it be replaced with a true reflection of what the 10 Gurus attempted to teach us, would that be so bad?

yes it is loss

In this political world Numbers are strength.It is a well known fact that no one hears a word from minority,no one care about them.Once the numbers of sikhs get reduced to very low numbers then Govt will strip all the rights to wear turban, kirpan.Look at world Sikhs have only secured rights in UK,canada and USA where they still have sizeable population.In countries like France or Germany Sikhs hardly have any rights to wear turban,Things could have been different if they were in lakhs in France

Today you can't even go Guru nanak's birth place ,You have to beg to Pakistan ,you cannot propagate Gurbani their why? because we don't have any sizeable population in Pakistan.

Harry ji I am sorry but if our ancestors had this type of thinking then may be Sikhism wouldn't have been alive

 

[Ishna]

France indeed has lakhs of Muslims, yet the law against religious clothing was primarily aimed against them.

 

[kds1980]

France indeed has lakhs of Muslims, yet the law against religious clothing was primarily aimed against them.

The main reason of that law is women's right and curtail growth of islam.From India to many European countries are worried about growth of muslims in numbers

 

[Harry Haller]

I am not a normal person.



yes it is loss

In this political world Numbers are strength.It is a well known fact that no one hears a word from minority,no one care about them.Once the numbers of sikhs get reduced to very low numbers then Govt will strip all the rights to wear turban, kirpan.Look at world Sikhs have only secured rights in UK,canada and USA where they still have sizeable population.In countries like France or Germany Sikhs hardly have any rights to wear turban,Things could have been different if they were in lakhs in France

Today you can't even go Guru nanak's birth place ,You have to beg to Pakistan ,you cannot propagate Gurbani their why? because we don't have any sizeable population in Pakistan.

Harry ji I am sorry but if our ancestors had this type of thinking then may be Sikhism wouldn't have been alive

Maybe if our ancestors could see the state of sikhism today, and I mean the many who have little or no idea about the union between man and the creator, they would dispair more so at the empty shell we have become. With the greatest respect you seem more concerned about numbers than quality, although, I do absolutely get your point and your rationale

 

[kds1980]

Maybe if our ancestors could see the state of sikhism today, and I mean the many who have little or no idea about the union between man and the creator, they would dispair more so at the empty shell we have become. With the greatest respect you seem more concerned about numbers than quality, although, I do absolutely get your point and your rationale

Yes I am more concerned about quantity because with quantity quality too increase .Just take 10 million Sikhs only 2% are great gursikhs means 2 lakh good quality sikhs .Now reduce this number to 10,000 and even increase percentage of great gursikhs 50% means 5000 great gursikhs.

As far our ancestors are concerned ,the puratan sikhs were no saints barring few,if you will read sikh history you may offensive words against muslims and even some wrote against women.The bhangi misl was most powerful but as they got their name Bhangi because they use to consume Bhang in large quantity.But overall they manage to save Sikhism and that is why it is still alive in 2011.A Religion cannot only run on liberal theories,it needs lot of practical elements

 

[Harry Haller]

Yes I am more concerned about quantity because with quantity quality too increase .Just take 10 million Sikhs only 2% are great gursikhs means 2 lakh good quality sikhs .Now reduce this number to 10,000 and even increase percentage of great gursikhs 50% means 5000 great gursikhs.

As far our ancestors are concerned ,the puratan sikhs were no saints barring few,if you will read sikh history you may offensive words against muslims and even some wrote against women.The bhangi misl was most powerful but as they got their name Bhangi because they use to consume Bhang in large quantity.But overall they manage to save Sikhism and that is why it is still alive in 2011.A Religion cannot only run on liberal theories,it needs lot of practical elements

Kdsji,

What you are saying is that 98% of 10 million sikhs are free to talk about god, sikhi and sikh thinking with little or no knowledge of what they are talking about. These are the people that inisist on same caste marriages, dowries, a bit of booze, deep admiration for anyone who does path daily; whether they understand it or not, advocating idol worship, or worse, a baba, these people will also have children, and ultimately you will find that percentage getting smaller and smaller, that is also an awful lot of people to spread an awful lot of misinformation.

Although I am aware that indulging in pot is normal in some sections of sikh culture and tradition, I am sorry to say I find it distasteful that we owe sikhism being alive in 2011 to a misl that not only used drugs, but were proud enough of the fact to name themselves after it.

The argument here is should we concentrate on ourselves as a body first, or just keep going where 98% of our people are semi sikhs. These semi sikhs have more chance of being man mukh types than if they did away with the 5 k's and started searching. You are validating this 98% and telling them, as long as you have kesh, and look and act like a sikh, that is good enough, so what happens, they stop searching and be content with themselves with the appearance of a sikh.

Personally I think that is doing more damage than letting loose 5000 gursikhs out of a total of 10,000, at least people would associate the more spiritual and good aspects of sikhi with the 5 k's, given that you have a 50% chance of meeting a sardar and knowing he is also a gursikh...

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

The "insults" to muslims and all..found mostly in so called Rehitnamahs and SPURIOUS Vaars penned under FRAUDALENT NAMES and added in to LEGITIMATE SIKH authors ( prime example is an ANONYMOUS VAAR added to the 40 vaars of Bhai Gurdass of Guru Arjun Jis time. This 41st Vaar added to the Vaar Pothi of Bhai gurdass is chock full of GROSS ANTI MUSLIM SENTIMENTS and FALSEHOODS...example..The Khalsa DEMOLISHED MOSQUES, Banned the Azan Nimaaz, etc and killed Kazis and Mullahs by the hundreds and made Islam a religion illegal...and it also says very degrading things baout Prophet muhammed the Founder of islam using words such as Muhammed cut off the Lingams of Arab Kings etc when its aknown fact that only the Foreskin is circumcised and the word LAAND is a derogatory word for the Male organ( Laand kataii laands cut off)..etc etc are the MINORITY..the tineist minority of PURATAN SIKHS who were busy fighting for their very survival whiel the "ENEMY WITHIN" was busy writing these fraud rehitnamahs and vaars to weaken them form inside.

The SAME "ENEMY WITHIN" is still around..very much alive and kicking...Dont beleiv eme..just ask the Jathedars in charge of the takhats SGPC etc..as to WHY the SIKH WOMEN are not allowed to do paaths, kirtan, Harmandar sewa etc etc...why they are considered UNCLEAN..when GURU Nanak ji Himself said THEY ARE NOT UNCLEAN and wrote it in Gurbani as a Natural occurence that arrives every month and is a Necessity to the Human Propogation....Jio joru sir navvnnne aveh varo vaar...its a natural occurrence coming month after month in His HUKM !!

As to Anti-Mulsim..anti Pakistan rhetoric..these "enemies within" have their Bhagva RSS bedmates Rashtrya SIKH Sangat to do that...so NOTHING has changed...GENUINE SIKHS Vs the FAKE Khalsa still the same...as in Puratan Times...

2. I am one of the direct descendants of the BHANGI MISL....a Dhillon...and commonly referred to by many as a "Bhnagu"....even though I havent yet seen a Bhang leaf in my life....so this may be subjective. BUT the FIRST Leader to be called Bhangi was one who was the third leader of this Misl. Just as the Present Ruling Clan of Punjab is called BADALITES..badal dall...BUT Not each member is from the Pind Badal or form the family of Badal...its very unfortunate to claim that each Sikh Member of the Bhnagi Misl ate Bhang !! Secondly BHANGEE is also the grouping of the LOW CASTE cleaners..the sweepers..the night soil carriers...and In the Khalsa Spirit the Dhillon jatt leaders of the Misl accepted these so called low castes and become Khalsa after Chhak Amrit...so the others called this the "Bhangi Misl" as well...( and I am sure the HIGH CLASS Brahmins/Khalsa Bippars inside the Sikhs etc would be the ones doing the Finger pointing...Plenty of SUCH people today as well as a few decades ago..these people POINTED THESE SAME FINGERS ta Gyani Gurditt Singh of Singh Sabha Lehr...(low caste chhimba) etc and excommunicated him !!

Our History has a lot of HOLES..lots of FAKE "facts"..UNTRUTHS..LIES..half-truths...Milawaat ....

 

[kds1980]

Kdsji,

What you are saying is that 98% of 10 million sikhs are free to talk about god, sikhi and sikh thinking with little or no knowledge of what they are talking about. These are the people that inisist on same caste marriages, dowries, a bit of booze, deep admiration for anyone who does path daily; whether they understand it or not, advocating idol worship, or worse, a baba, these people will also have children, and ultimately you will find that percentage getting smaller and smaller, that is also an awful lot of people to spread an awful lot of misinformation.

Whether the percentage of good sikhs increase or decrease no one knows,the Sikhs of Punjab used to be quite religious and the one who left Punjab were less religious,what happened today the people of Punjab are less religious .On 6th june where thousands of people gathered to remember 27th anniversary of operation Blue star there were hardlyt few Sikhs gathered in Punjab where it actually happened

Although I am aware that indulging in pot is normal in some sections of sikh culture and tradition, I am sorry to say I find it distasteful that we owe sikhism being alive in 2011 to a misl that not only used drugs, but were proud enough of the fact to name themselves after it.

Bhangi Misl was not the only misl there were other misls too but use of intoxicants was their.Even the europeans who observed Sikhs wrote about it
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The word Bhangi is derived from bhang or hemp, a plant of wild growth found in the jungles of the Punjab, and in abundance along river banks. When pounded in a mortar with a pestle and sifted through a piece of co{censored} cloth, it leaves behind a thick liquid of gree colour. Its drink is intoxicating and soothes the effect of heat in summer. A particular group of Dal Khalsa liberally indulged in this drink, and profusely entertained others with it. At the time of fighting, it made its lovers furious and reckless. On account of addiction to it, this group of Khalsa came to be called Bhangi. This misal was the largest in its size and area it occupied.

http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/events/bhangi.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The argument here is should we concentrate on ourselves as a body first, or just keep going where 98% of our people are semi sikhs. These semi sikhs have more chance of being man mukh types than if they did away with the 5 k's and started searching. You are validating this 98% and telling them, as long as you have kesh, and look and act like a sikh, that is good enough, so what happens, they stop searching and be content with themselves with the appearance of a sikh.

I am not saying that these 98% are going to keep kesh or even wear 5ks they may keep it they may not.I was only countering you arguement that what problem if their if many sikhs will amalgamate into hinudism and telling importance of numbers

Personally I think that is doing more damage than letting loose 5000 gursikhs out of a total of 10,000, at least people would associate the more spiritual and good aspects of sikhi with the 5 k's, given that you have a 50% chance of meeting a sardar and knowing he is also a gursikh...

and these 5000 gursikhs will only do farming because nowhere in cities they will be allowed
to do work with turban.In India if a population any community decreases below 30,000 then they cease to exists as community under constitution ,only 70,000 parsis are left and national comission of minorities have asked them to increase their population as they are already under the threat of extinction

 

[kds1980]

The "insults" to muslims and all..found mostly in so called Rehitnamahs and SPURIOUS Vaars penned under FRAUDALENT NAMES and added in to LEGITIMATE SIKH authors ( prime example is an ANONYMOUS VAAR added to the 40 vaars of Bhai Gurdass of Guru Arjun Jis time. This 41st Vaar added to the Vaar Pothi of Bhai gurdass is chock full of GROSS ANTI MUSLIM SENTIMENTS and FALSEHOODS...example..The Khalsa DEMOLISHED MOSQUES, Banned the Azan Nimaaz, etc and killed Kazis and Mullahs by the hundreds and made Islam a religion illegal...and it also says very degrading things baout Prophet muhammed the Founder of islam using words such as Muhammed cut off the Lingams of Arab Kings etc when its aknown fact that only the Foreskin is circumcised and the word LAAND is a derogatory word for the Male organ( Laand kataii laands cut off)..etc etc are the MINORITY..the tineist minority of PURATAN SIKHS who were busy fighting for their very survival whiel the "ENEMY WITHIN" was busy writing these fraud rehitnamahs and vaars to weaken them form inside.

The so called rehatnama's have valuable information about Sikh history ,though I am not saying that they are 100% reliable but if we keep them out then what history we have left for that period or we just want to create our own history where khalsa is like a bollywood hero ,very good ,always defeating enemies etc a romanticised version of Sikhism which suits our mind

 

[onurag]

these 5000 gursikhs will only do farming because nowhere in cities they will be allowed to do work with turban

Please dont underestimate the power, knowledge and intelligence of gursikhs. Who says that they will not be allowed to work with turbans. No one can stop them to work with turbans. Today you can see Sikhs working in every field and domain, may be its IT industries, farming or any other field.
I dont say that they must be limited to farming but if they do so then what is the harm. Because they are working as farmers, we are getting grains and food to eat that gives us strength to survive and live. Because of them, we are doing best in our fields. :happysingh:

 

[kds1980]

Please dont underestimate the power, knowledge and intelligence of gursikhs. Who says that they will not be allowed to work with turbans. No one can stop them to work with turbans. Today you can see Sikhs working in every field and domain, may be its IT industries, farming or any other field.
I dont say that they must be limited to farming but if they do so then what is the harm. Because they are working as farmers, we are getting grains and food to eat that gives us strength to survive and live. Because of them, we are doing best in our fields. :happysingh:

It is because Sikhs have secured rights to wear turban,but even in countries like USA Turbaned ,bearded sikhs are not allowed to become pilots ,while in India Turbaned pilots are very common.Why other countries even the USA don't allow sikhs to become pilots because we don't have numbers to influence governments of various countries

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Kds Ji...the Guru has given us the Best Touchstone to TEST everything by...Gurbani in SGGS. If a "rehitnamah/hukmnaman/bhai mani singh letter..even dsm granth" FAILS this Gurbani TEST..then its RUBBISH...........By all means RETAIN whatever PASSES the TEST...and theres a LOT for retention..of the 41 Vaars of Bhai gurdass Ji..ONLY 1 is Fake !! Rest have a few lines here and there that are fakes..so majority is OK. Same goes for Suraj parkash, Gur panth parkash e tc etc...