The 4 Classes Of Sikhs And The Destruction Of Sikhism

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Dear Spndmin Ji
I'm very new and maybe over sensitive, having had a bad experience of forums, I upset a moderator by questioning him for taking sides. Not knowing the etiquette, I thought that admin would be impartial as they are the representative of the Site.(maybe mistakingly )I lack experience but my personal feeling was that I felt ok debating with members ,but when Admin posts something, it seemed as if the instituition itself has taken up the matter. I did not even realise moderators enter topics, (I lack experience ,so maybe commonplace but I just don;t know)but I still feel they should enter a topic as a distinct entity such as "Mr Aman Singh Ji" etc
Some moderators ofcourse may have differing opinions and you kind of feel you are debating an anonymous entity rather than a comrade.

I like the fact your site appends members names with Ji so it seems absurd to be disparaging after calling someone Ji.

It is wise for me to weed out my own flaws and let others weed theirs.So with that thought ,please forgive me, if I spoke out of place,
Finding my way Ji and Spnadmin Ji you are in all ways better than me and I value your comments even if I don't understand the underlying sentiments.

A quote in gratitude:

"Life has the name of life, but in reality it is death."

 

[spnadmin]

Sinner Singh ji

Don't spend time and emotion becoming overwrought. The moderators here do have the liberty of expressing a point of view. We tried the "impartiality" approach a while ago and it did not work. If someone posted in favor of X and we did not intervene, there would be dozens of complaints a day. If someone posted against X, the same thing. In other words.... we were always wrong and accused of taking sides. It works out better if we allow a multitude to post but make sure that no one individual can paralyze a discussion with personal prejudices.

SPN's impartiality comes into play because we permit many points of view to be posted. However, that too has to be monitored so that threads do not die under the weight of member and for that matter leader emotionality. So I will keep your thinking in mind.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Spnadmin Ji

If fear you are deeply depressed and cannot see the light ,you must stop seeing the glass half empty.

 

[kds1980]

kds1980 ji

If findingmyway had not pushed this discussion as far as she did and to the point it finally reached, my own impressions of your comments would stick. That you are someone who is deeply depressed and cannot see any light for any one anywhere in Punjab or India. Someone who has given up. Who sees no good in India. Who has no hope. Who sees every glass half-full. Who has no faith or trust in the ability of anyone but a few to pull out of depression. Who thinks NRI's are a pack of hypocrites. At this point my view of your comments has changed a lot. This is something to think about...the impression that we leave with words. We all need to think about that. What message do we send without realizing it is so. And that is why debate is so important, because it makes us clarify.

Thanks for your kind words.I too can say many things why almost all the people
who contribuited on SPN from 2004 to 2008 and played such a big role in making this site a success left it but I will not .Perhaps they too were depressed


Anyway could you please point out when I say anything against India or anyone having no future in India.Indian economy is booming and many parts of India has great future but not the Punjab.It is now a well known fact that Sikhism is not having good time in India anyway could you please clarify about my being depressed comments ,is that related to my personal life or is it towards community?

As far NRI's are concerned ,yes I do believe they have double standard it is not because they are living outside,it is because they make most noise about
1984 justice,Punjab going downhill ,sikhism going downhill etc but yet they are not ready to make sacrifice out from their personal life and come to India to something good for panth.And please don't think I am targeting NRI's of SPN I am saying this to all who make blogs,websites and say lot of anti India ,anti Hindu words but don't do anything at ground level.

 

[kds1980]

NRI did move back to India...the Gadarites who came back and fought were from abroad...becasue they realised that having a "Backward/enslaved" Motherland put them at a distinct disadvantage even when living in a free country like USA Canada etc...and the solution was in freeing their motherland..and they did it....

Today India is a free independent Nation...IF the Sikhs want anything..they will have to VOTE WISELY....But in spite of billions of NRI Money pouring in to Punjab from abroad for the past 100 years or more, Punjabi Sikhs back home have been busy grabbing the lands and properties of thsoe who went abroad/spending the money sent in by those who went abroad like it grows on trees in USA/UK/Canada...buying flashy motorcycles, cars, building castles, having the best DRUGS, drinking like FISH..adopting Babas and deras as if they are the sole salvation, becoming lazy and worthless by importing cheap labour form UP Bihar etc ..and wasting millions to agents and fraudsters to go abroad !!

Whenever any NRI points out these shortcomings to the Punjabi Skhs..they go cry baby and start syaing..YOU COME HERE if you dare ( There is a very tiny MINORITY of Punjabi Sikh who has NOT YET paid an agent/paid for a passport etc to get a Visa to go abroad by HOOK or CROOK - BUT they wnat the NRIs to come back to the hell hole they created...Khalistan or no khalistan...when i LOOK at the THOUSANDS of these Punjabi Sikh ILLEGALS rotting in our Jails...working at MENIAL LABOUR ( but stop by for a while..and they will say..WE are Jatt PUTT SARDARAN DE..Punjab vich we have 100 killas of land. tractor ghar da..biharee naukar hai..pannee da glass nahin peeta aap..all done by Naukars....blah blah blah..and the logical querstion is .."WHY are you collecting Sh.it like an ordinary BHANGEE/Choohrra here in a foreign country ??)

PUNJABIS back home VOTE in ******* at each elction every 5 years without fail..and then cry for the NRIs to come back !!!..a peg of desi sharab sell their souls...and ask for NRIs to return (or exchange places with them ha ha)

Punjabis got to pull up their boot straps and get a handle on life..improve..and then maybe the NRI will come back to lend hand...any NRI who returns now is like putting a gold chain on a majh...utterly useless..

Gyani ji

You have pointed out very well.NRI's are ready to share their money but not the skills which they learned abroad .It is obvious if NRI's are sending the free money to their relatives then it is going to have more negative impact than the positive one ,it will create mindset that money is easy in abroad.

You are talking about wisdom but from where this wisdom is going to come from ? from the third grade Govt Schools that too of Punjab ,where you have poor quality of low paid teachers are working

Also if all good hardworking people will left Punjab for greener pastures outside India then what type of quality will be left in Punjab? It is obvious that poor quality of people will be left back home

 

[findingmyway]

The reference to depression was not a personal insult but related to the way all posts seem to be all doom and gloom making it very difficult to maintain the Sikh chardi kala spirit. I was taught Sikhi teaches one to be proactive and make the world a better place (rather than always playing the blame game as an excuse not to change yourself) like some of these people:

Our own Mai ji (NRI) who stayed in 1984 to fight for justice and lost so much.

http://www.sgss.org/information/TAR_2008_2009.pdf Go to page 10.
The health camps funded AND staffed by this UK Gurdwara are still ongoing and according to a recent report I read are occuring monthly. Also note the amount of education this Gurdwara has for the youth. I do not know of any Indian Gurdwara that makes so much effort for the local youth. A place can only be helped if it also helps itself.

http://www.unitedsikhs.org/usouta/
Funded AND staffed by NRI's and non-Indian foreigners.

http://www.nishkamcanada.org/aboutus.asp
Funding, organisation and support provided by NRI's. Provides jobs to local people.

http://www.unitedsikhs.org/punjab/panjab_flood_2010.php
Funding, support, organisation and practical on the ground help provided by NRI's.

http://www.seva.org/site/PageServer?pagename=programs_sight
Funded and staffed by NRI's.

http://www.unitedsikhs.org/starae/
Funded by NRI's-jobs provided by locals so promote sustainability. Training given to staff by NRI's. Organised by NRI's. All materials required provided by NRI's.

http://www.gsghks.org.uk/gallmain1.htm
This Gurdwara has organised several educational events in India. Funded, staffed and organised by NRI's.

http://www.seva.org/site/PageServer?pagename=programs_sight
Funding AND staffed by NRI's.

http://www.worldvolunteerweb.org/news-views/news/doc/voluntary-services-overseas.html
Funded and staffed by NRI's and non-Indian foreigners.

http://www.unitedsikhs.org/caof/
Funded and academic support given by NRI's.

http://www.globalchoices.co.uk/work-programme-271.php
Funded AND staffed by NRI's and non-Indian Britishers.

 

[kds1980]

Thanks for providing those links .I know NRI Sikhs are very generous in financial matters and I never said that they don't provide Financial support or don't do any good.

It take One Indian lawyer H.S phoolka who had chance to move to USA but preferred to stay in India to Fight for justice though I heard that 84 riots legal expenses were paid from USA

Anyway No one knows whether the money NRI or any other send to India reach to needy or not,infact i heard truck load of amount was collected in name of 84 riots victims but hardly any penny reached to them.

 

[spnadmin]

.I too can say many things why almost all the people
who contribuited on SPN from 2004 to 2008 and played such a big role in making this site a success left it but I will not .

Many of them were or are NRI's.

 

[kds1980]

Many of them were or are NRI's.

over 90% of participation on sikh forums ,sikh websites are NRI's.What 's your point? I am not against any NRI neither I hate them .My only objection is the way they speak about Sikh issue's,or Punjab issue's ,in that way they are not sacrifice any of their jobs or facilites of developed countries.

 

[spnadmin]

kds1980 ji

I am torn between wondering if the discussion of NRI's is going off topic or if it is going off on a tangent.

The thread title is "4 Classes of Sikhs and the Destruction of Sikhism." The starter article has been discussed to a point. It is also an older article that was brought back to life by a newer member. After that comes a discussion of Hindu encroachment on Sikh identity. Following is a longer discussion about NRI's, much of it critical of NRI's. When any NRI points out that these criticisms are unwarranted...the beat goes on...there is no end to rebuke after rebuke of them. It is not enough to say that all must have a chance "to express himself." All that will lead to and has led to is more criticism of NRI's, Therefore, NRI association with the Destruction of Sikhism grows stronger, whether you mean it or not. Moreover, how many times must an NRI search for a response to each kick before giving up in disgust and leaving the thread?

Most readers do not even go back to the start of the thread. They start reading the most recent posts.

And that is what I meant when i said that we all have to think of the impression our words create when someone objects that a group they belong to has been singled out for excessive criticism, and criticism that is not rooted in the facts. It really is time to take ownership of the gut reflex to always have to have a comeback no matter what. Is it that important to have the last word? Is it that important to wear down the opposition?

 

[Admin]

Gurfateh Sinner Singh Ji and fellow SPN'ers!

Moderation is a double edged sword and it is very easy to feel offended just because an admin or a moderator intervened to confront you or any one else, to put the topic back on track. At SPN, an admin or a moderator is a member first and then rest comes into picture.

SPN is a platform where everyone gets an opportunity to share his own perspective without being judged or prejudiced. But at the same time nobody is allowed to assert or push his/her own thought process (in some cases, agendas) over other members. We respect what all members for what they have to say on a topic but at the same time nobody would be allowed to undermine anybody under any circumstances. If you have an argument then other members can also have an argument pointing to entirely different directions. We should be matured enough to accept the differences in opinions and learn from each others perspectives. Pushing around only your own arguments and ridiculing others is not acceptable. This applies to any member or an admin or a moderator.

So, you should not feel offended or being cornered just because an admin or a moderator confronted you.

Cheers!

Thanks for your kind words. I too can say many things why almost all the people who contributed on SPN from 2004 to 2008 and played such a big role in making this site a success left it but I will not .Perhaps they too were depressed.

Kanwardeep ji,

Change is the only thing in this world which is constant... This is why we at SPN always greet a new member by suggesting him to "...enjoy your stay over here..." At the same time SPN is ever so grateful to the people who have/had patronized and contributed towards building a strong foundations for SPN. But as time passes, priorities of the people doing their worldly duties change. Most people choose to move on gracefully. With Waheguru's Grace, from where i stand, i see more people coming back to SPN rather than leaving. Members, who generally leave are the ones, who have usually failed in pushing their own agendas on SPN and hence the depression!

As far as leaving of past/present/future Mentors/Moderators is concerned. Being a moderator or a mentor on SPN is a privilege granted to members based on their performance and behavior with fellow members on the network and this does not constitute any kind of absolute right to these positions. All Mods/Mentors are candidates to retire by rotation under present circumstances and performance, primarily to pave way for injecting fresh blood or also provide a break to existing leaders to rejuvenate themselves in some cases.

It is also very important to understand, that nobody can keep everybody happy or otherwise our Gurus would have never faced that fierce opposition on every step, even from their blood relations. It is not about keeping everybody happy and compromise on our ideals.

Another important thing is to move forward and don't get bogged down by the bottlenecks that besiege our path. This is what we can learn from the lives of our Gurus. And the moment we get bogged down, BANG, you are gone!

In a nutshell, please allow us to perform our duties without being over judgemental as we have to cater to almost everyone on this network and have fun & above all enjoy your stay over here!

This thread is now officially closed and if anybody has something worthwhile to add to the discussion, then simply drop me a Private Message.

Gurfateh!


Aman Singh