Love it
the thirst for Guru/God driving us forward. Our Simran, our Seva removing the stains of the filth attached to our past actions and thoughts....Our soul becoming so radiant that God Glances over
God Bless
Love it
the thirst for Guru/God driving us forward. Our Simran, our Seva removing the stains of the filth attached to our past actions and thoughts....Our soul becoming so radiant that God Glances over
God Bless
Tejwant ji
Gur Fateh
A loaded post to say the least.
It will require several posts on my part to respond otherwise the response gets rather lengthy.
First of all let me clear the point regarding the PM – I have exact copies of these. My last post to you on the forum was on the 9th December 2009. As I did not hear from you for several days, I wondered what was wrong and sent a PM as below on the 13th December 2009:
“I expected some sort of response to the answers provided, either on the Forum or through PM. Since none has been forthcoming, I take it that you are either satisfied with the answers, or much more likely, I have fallen short of providing them. I am not looking for a detailed response on the Forum because of my pending travel schedule starting tomorrow but a short note would be nice.”
I did not ask for a discussion through PM but advised of my absence through travel activities for a while and sought your response. You responded through a PM, for which I was grateful, saying that the discussion was leading towards the argumentative. I acceded to your wishes as follows:
“Forgive me if I caused you any offense or hurt your feelings in any way – none were intended.”
Tejwant ji I have always held you in great esteem and let me know if ever I have shown any disrespect or feelings of hostility towards you. I do not deserve this. Despite your post it does not alter my feelings or respect towards you. That is what Sikhi to me is all about. I don’t care how you label me. I am grateful for your ‘rodeo rider’ title, perhaps I deserve worse. If you like I could suggest a few from the series Gunsmoke and other western movies for you to throw at me.
You wrote:
“man moorakh ajhoo nah samjhat sklh dai hareo neet. (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 536-17)
I have grown wary of educating this mind but the stubborn fool just does not take heed.
However, I will persevere.
I better go now for further programming (of the mind) but will return to answer some of the other points you raised..
Regards
Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’
Gur Fateh
A loaded post to say the least.
It will require several posts on my part to respond otherwise the response gets rather lengthy.
First of all let me clear the point regarding the PM – I have exact copies of these. My last post to you on the forum was on the 9th December 2009. As I did not hear from you for several days, I wondered what was wrong and sent a PM as below on the 13th December 2009:
“I expected some sort of response to the answers provided, either on the Forum or through PM. Since none has been forthcoming, I take it that you are either satisfied with the answers, or much more likely, I have fallen short of providing them. I am not looking for a detailed response on the Forum because of my pending travel schedule starting tomorrow but a short note would be nice.”
I did not ask for a discussion through PM but advised of my absence through travel activities for a while and sought your response. You responded through a PM, for which I was grateful, saying that the discussion was leading towards the argumentative. I acceded to your wishes as follows:
“Forgive me if I caused you any offense or hurt your feelings in any way – none were intended.”
Tejwant ji I have always held you in great esteem and let me know if ever I have shown any disrespect or feelings of hostility towards you. I do not deserve this. Despite your post it does not alter my feelings or respect towards you. That is what Sikhi to me is all about. I don’t care how you label me. I am grateful for your ‘rodeo rider’ title, perhaps I deserve worse. If you like I could suggest a few from the series Gunsmoke and other western movies for you to throw at me.
You wrote:
No one can argue with that but :
“man moorakh ajhoo nah samjhat sklh dai hareo neet. (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 536-17)
I have grown wary of educating this mind but the stubborn fool just does not take heed.
However, I will persevere.
I better go now for further programming (of the mind) but will return to answer some of the other points you raised..
Regards
Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’
Lucky ji
Good post, need time to study and reflect in detail. Rawel singh ji and I exchanged emails quite a while ago regarding Yugs, another interesting area. He does carry out a lot of research on a regular basis. Thanks for bringing this to our notice.
I hope to expand my own article as I have indicated several times in the thread as this was only the first effort and has many short-comings, but it has served to create an interest.
Rajinder Singh 'Arshi'
Rajinder Singh 'Arshi'
Good post, need time to study and reflect in detail. Rawel singh ji and I exchanged emails quite a while ago regarding Yugs, another interesting area. He does carry out a lot of research on a regular basis. Thanks for bringing this to our notice.
I hope to expand my own article as I have indicated several times in the thread as this was only the first effort and has many short-comings, but it has served to create an interest.
Rajinder Singh 'Arshi'
Rajinder Singh 'Arshi'
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Tejwant ji
Gur Fateh
You wrote:
The organization is based in Soho Road, Birmingham. The only time I have been there is at the behest of an invitation to a wedding or other family function. I do know some who are members of the organization but the only time I have met Bhai Sahib is at public meetings. I have never had a one-to- one dialogue with him. A few facts that I am aware of are as follows:
(a) He is currently a leading light in the UK Sikh world and Sikh spiritual issues. His popularity extends beyond Birmingham.
(b) He has had a hand in establishing schools for Sikh children and has a lot of influence with local and national politicians.
(c) The organisation known as British Sikh Consultative Forum (BSCF) holds a Vaisakhi Day gathering in the Parliament Buildings every year under the chairmanship of Bhai Sahib. This gives the Sikh community an opportunity to meet MPs and members of the cabinet, which is essential for the welfare of our nation. I have been to two of these meetings and that is the extent of my contact with Bhai Sahib and GNNSJ.
He has his critics but I personally can only judge him on the basis of the work he is doing. Whether he has any grand plans for self promotion I do not know and have no reason to suspect. As they say “actions speak louder than words”. Whether in the future he will stay in or fall from grace no one knows. I can only wish him well as my Sikhi dictates me.
You refer to the speaker as a rodeo rider like yours truly. Well that is a matter of opinion and you are entitled to it.
Regards
Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’
Gur Fateh
You wrote:
You mentioned Bhai Sahib (as he is popularly known) Mohinder Singh ji and GNNSJ. I have absolutely no direct connection with this organization and neither do I wish to judge it. I am not sure why you brought this up! What is the link? This, in my opinion, is some what mischievous. What has his success got to do with me? In fact I am not a member and never have been a member of this organization or any organization for that matter, Sikh or otherwise.
The organization is based in Soho Road, Birmingham. The only time I have been there is at the behest of an invitation to a wedding or other family function. I do know some who are members of the organization but the only time I have met Bhai Sahib is at public meetings. I have never had a one-to- one dialogue with him. A few facts that I am aware of are as follows:
(a) He is currently a leading light in the UK Sikh world and Sikh spiritual issues. His popularity extends beyond Birmingham.
(b) He has had a hand in establishing schools for Sikh children and has a lot of influence with local and national politicians.
(c) The organisation known as British Sikh Consultative Forum (BSCF) holds a Vaisakhi Day gathering in the Parliament Buildings every year under the chairmanship of Bhai Sahib. This gives the Sikh community an opportunity to meet MPs and members of the cabinet, which is essential for the welfare of our nation. I have been to two of these meetings and that is the extent of my contact with Bhai Sahib and GNNSJ.
He has his critics but I personally can only judge him on the basis of the work he is doing. Whether he has any grand plans for self promotion I do not know and have no reason to suspect. As they say “actions speak louder than words”. Whether in the future he will stay in or fall from grace no one knows. I can only wish him well as my Sikhi dictates me.
You refer to the speaker as a rodeo rider like yours truly. Well that is a matter of opinion and you are entitled to it.
Regards
Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’
I'm not sure what you mean here !
Do you think I am suggesting that we should work our way up some grading system or that to be Gurmukh we must conquer mind and the realms we are faced with ?
Do you disagree with Rawel ji's work above or do you have another interpretation that can be shared ??
I think the problem on this issue is that some of us may rightfully disagree with some versions and interpretations out there- Fair enough. But then we need to put forward what our own interpretation is in line with.
My interpretation is nothing about skipping but it is about the realms one has to conquer by self development to becoming Gurmukh.
I'm just learning and finding the ropes with sikhi and am still fairly new to most issues as I've only been interested and spiritual since the last few years. Before that, I never even knew Guru maneyo granth or what it consists of.
When did I ever not put my own interpretation out there? tthugge and sajaan is the story of a thief who became an enlightened soul following an encounter with Guru Nanak. The oil of the sandlwood scents all of the wood that surrounds it, so the nadar can envelop a single soul according to the hukam of Akaal.
Luckysingh ji
One place in this discussion that needs considerable review is the fact that the khands are not found in only 2 paurees of Japuji Sahib. Khands are mentioned several times in several different places in Japuji and have different meanings throughout. When one focuses on only Pauree 37 and 38 the sense of Guru Nanak's meaning is distorted. In those 2 paurees the focus is on "hukam" not on khands. (See the work of Karminder Singh Dhillon in Sikh Bulletin referenced here at SPN) Changing focus to hukam can change how we understand khands.
I will go into detail at some later point; someone else may want to go first.
The reference to tthugge is also relevant in the discussion of khands - because Guruji elsewhere in shabadguru points out that some of us are thieves of the khands. Like thieves we search the house in darkness, determined according to our own individual wills to find a khand, to take it for ourselves, to make off with it, to perhaps seize one or two more, through deliberate effort to make us more spiritual on a higher plane. To the end we search; to the end we may never receive the sudden glance of grace that takes us home to the Guru in our own heart.
Finally, Japuji Sahib, according to Guru Nanak Dev j i, is/was his ladder, contemplating the hymn and working through its concepts we can see the progression of bhakhti in the hymn. Guru Nanak tells us right in Japuji sahib that, Jap is his ladder, the hymn is his ladder. So we need to take a look at all of Japuji and understand how it, not the khands, gives the steps/the stages of devotion/ the ladder to inner discovery.
A page or 2 back I expressed my disbelief and skepticism that we are working our way up through a grading system. Of course we must conquer our minds. But mind conquering does not automatically give us Gurmukh status. Do we ever conquer the khands? No one conquers the khands - they are part of the natural order of things - anymore than one conquers the planet Jupiter or the stages of evolution in the galaxies, or never stumbles onto one's own own envious and thieving nature, or takes a long and arduous journey to become Gurmukh.
Khands are part of hukam, being (not becoming) Gurmukh is part of hukam. Hukam! Not whose translation is the best, or how many stages of spiritual development we must conquer, or whether they are to be conquered at all.
My original concern was that we as Sikhs claim Hum Hindu Nahim - "I am not a Hindu. With Guru Nanak I reject caste, the abuse of women, the worship of idols, empty rituals, and meaningless sacrifices. Yet I interpret the shabad like a Hindu, taking only the Hindu/brahmincal meanings from it."
I will go back to the khands tuk by tuk in Japuji later tonight. The effort will be worth it.
Luckysingh ji
One place in this discussion that needs considerable review is the fact that the khands are not found in only 2 paurees of Japuji Sahib. Khands are mentioned several times in several different places in Japuji and have different meanings throughout. When one focuses on only Pauree 37 and 38 the sense of Guru Nanak's meaning is distorted. In those 2 paurees the focus is on "hukam" not on khands. (See the work of Karminder Singh Dhillon in Sikh Bulletin referenced here at SPN) Changing focus to hukam can change how we understand khands.
I will go into detail at some later point; someone else may want to go first.
The reference to tthugge is also relevant in the discussion of khands - because Guruji elsewhere in shabadguru points out that some of us are thieves of the khands. Like thieves we search the house in darkness, determined according to our own individual wills to find a khand, to take it for ourselves, to make off with it, to perhaps seize one or two more, through deliberate effort to make us more spiritual on a higher plane. To the end we search; to the end we may never receive the sudden glance of grace that takes us home to the Guru in our own heart.
Finally, Japuji Sahib, according to Guru Nanak Dev j i, is/was his ladder, contemplating the hymn and working through its concepts we can see the progression of bhakhti in the hymn. Guru Nanak tells us right in Japuji sahib that, Jap is his ladder, the hymn is his ladder. So we need to take a look at all of Japuji and understand how it, not the khands, gives the steps/the stages of devotion/ the ladder to inner discovery.
A page or 2 back I expressed my disbelief and skepticism that we are working our way up through a grading system. Of course we must conquer our minds. But mind conquering does not automatically give us Gurmukh status. Do we ever conquer the khands? No one conquers the khands - they are part of the natural order of things - anymore than one conquers the planet Jupiter or the stages of evolution in the galaxies, or never stumbles onto one's own own envious and thieving nature, or takes a long and arduous journey to become Gurmukh.
Khands are part of hukam, being (not becoming) Gurmukh is part of hukam. Hukam! Not whose translation is the best, or how many stages of spiritual development we must conquer, or whether they are to be conquered at all.
My original concern was that we as Sikhs claim Hum Hindu Nahim - "I am not a Hindu. With Guru Nanak I reject caste, the abuse of women, the worship of idols, empty rituals, and meaningless sacrifices. Yet I interpret the shabad like a Hindu, taking only the Hindu/brahmincal meanings from it."
I will go back to the khands tuk by tuk in Japuji later tonight. The effort will be worth it.
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arshi ji
Rather than quote your entire query to me, allow me to skip discussion of personalities who concerned you, and cut directly to the issues that concerned me.
If you make a claim that highly evolved spiritual agents are sent to test us during time spent in the khands, then I am inclined to ask you exactly how that works. My questions then were not an inquisition; they were a request for specific details.
To put my query a different way. Suppose I am beleaguered daily by a mentally challenged neighbor of 18 years who snaps the blooms off my rose-bushes. I am tempted to be angry; or in a better moment I am tempted to reason with him. But neither anger nor reason are going work, and I know it. Then it may come to me to draw from some soul-searching: maybe from an impulse rising from dharam, or from gyaan, or from saram, or from karam or even from such. It is possible for me to do that if I am guided by devotion to the sat. It is even possible for me to draw from all 5 realms of spirituality if I am blessed to do so. In this situation I would consider the mentally challenged 18-year old an agent sent by Waheguru to test me. I would also consider it possible for me or anyone else gur prasaad to have access to all 5 realms if He has so ordained at anyone time.
My apologies to anyone who is offended by these sentences. The journey of the soul is an inward journey. The metaphysical distance traveled lies within us. The progress we make comes partly from effort and entirely from hukam. It makes sense we should have our eyes wide open and be fully alive and conscious during this journey if we are to benefit from our learning during any part of it.
I am prepared to be specific as to how that might work.
Rather than quote your entire query to me, allow me to skip discussion of personalities who concerned you, and cut directly to the issues that concerned me.
If you make a claim that highly evolved spiritual agents are sent to test us during time spent in the khands, then I am inclined to ask you exactly how that works. My questions then were not an inquisition; they were a request for specific details.
To put my query a different way. Suppose I am beleaguered daily by a mentally challenged neighbor of 18 years who snaps the blooms off my rose-bushes. I am tempted to be angry; or in a better moment I am tempted to reason with him. But neither anger nor reason are going work, and I know it. Then it may come to me to draw from some soul-searching: maybe from an impulse rising from dharam, or from gyaan, or from saram, or from karam or even from such. It is possible for me to do that if I am guided by devotion to the sat. It is even possible for me to draw from all 5 realms of spirituality if I am blessed to do so. In this situation I would consider the mentally challenged 18-year old an agent sent by Waheguru to test me. I would also consider it possible for me or anyone else gur prasaad to have access to all 5 realms if He has so ordained at anyone time.
My apologies to anyone who is offended by these sentences. The journey of the soul is an inward journey. The metaphysical distance traveled lies within us. The progress we make comes partly from effort and entirely from hukam. It makes sense we should have our eyes wide open and be fully alive and conscious during this journey if we are to benefit from our learning during any part of it.
I am prepared to be specific as to how that might work.
Love it
the thirst for Guru/God driving us forward. Our Simran, our Seva removing the stains of the filth attached to our past actions and thoughts....Our soul becoming so radiant that God Glances over
God Bless
I understand what you are saying and after looking into this issue, it has made me feel more strongly about meditation being a major contributing factor or helping aid for the inner self discovery, conquering of mind and the realms it presents us with.:winkingmunda:
Arshi ji,
Guru Fateh.
I expected this kind of response from you with frothing, ire and anger which is a shame. I hope I am wrong but from your post it seems that you have some kind of guilty conscious about what I wrote. The fact remains that you never gave any direct answers to my questions in this thread when it started nor in the other one whose url is posted below.
You skirted around them as a good rodeo rider and you kept on with your non answers in the same manner later on in the following thread where you avoided answering many of my questions. It is for all to see. This seems like your way when asked directly. Sikhi demands honesty and open-mindedness from us no matter how well layered our turbans and our fiftys (the mostly multi-layered head band under the turban which is not an under-turban) are.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-gurus/29587-guru-nanak-in-uganda-africa.html
You write:
I never said anything about your relationship with GNNSJ. You took that upon yourself which is a bit head scratching I must say and as mentioned above, it is your own guilty conscious for whatever reasons it may be. I only made the comparison with the Kathavaachak from GNNSJ and yourself because he reminded me of you as we often do in our lives when we meet other people and find some similarities with someone else we have also met. This is a natural human trait. Or do you claim of being absent of this human trait?
Arshi ji, here one can see the glimpse of your ire that you try to camouflage it behind your sort of kind words. If we were teenagers, which we are not, then I would understand your using the phrase “some what mischievous”. At this level of discussion we stoop ourselves to a very low level which is not a mature thing from a person of your claibre and ability. It is your mind playing these games with you and you seem to blame others for that, which is a shame.
Arshi Ji, this is not what you said in our following interaction. Why this double speak?
Arshi ji, I have no idea why you feel the need to defend yourself time and time again when I never said you had any connections with GNNSJ. Why this guilty feeling of some sort, I fail to understand that.
Thanks for proving my point. It is HIS popularity which has nothing to do with Sikhi. If we as Sikhs try to emulate even little of what our Gurus did, we will find out that they were against any popularity but to the contrary. This is why they never self-promoted themselves with self portraits or with any fancy titles. They rather gave themselves numbers not any titles such as Faith Leaders as Mohinder Singh has written on his website.
Is he your faith leader? I hope you respond to this important question.
He is not mine for sure. Sikhi has no faith leader but all the cults do. The part you ignore for the reasons known to yourself.
Here is what he calls himself on his website:
Guru Nanak Nishkam Sewak Jatha
Faith: Sikhism - Sikh Dharam
Faith Leader(s): Bhai Sahib Dr. Mohinder Singh Ji
Management: Bhai Sahib Dr. Mohinder Singh Ji (Chairman)
This is their website which talks about themselves:http://www.birminghamfaithmap.org.uk...php?placeID=25
So have many other Sikh trusts whose people are all sevadaars and none of them call themselves faith leaders which is a very important distinction in Sikhi. As mentioned before, only cults have that and all they care is about themselves and con the innocent in the name of Sikhi. GNNSJ is no different cult than Radasoamis and others who take advantage of Sikhi garb to fool others.
Here are some examples of the real Sikh trusts:
Satnaam Trust in BC Canada was the first to establish Khalsa Schools in BC and the schools rank number 10 among all the Schools. The same trust was responsible to open Khalsa Credit Union, the first of its kind in Canada. They have guest house for free for the visitors at Amritsar and supply books to 500 schools and give the salaries of the staffs of many Khalsa schools located in India along with their US affiliate called Nanak Parchar Sabha which organizes yearly Nagar Keertan in Los Angeles, have Birdh Ghar- home for the elderly, 500 students including adults are at their Sunday Punjabi/Gurmat School. The kids do Asa di Vaar every Sunday. They invited 300 families under privileged Christian families during Christmas, offered langar and gift packages. The same they did during Easter. They also have schools for free in India. But, yet all in the name of Sikhi, without any faith leader.
Thanks for proving my point again. It is all about the faith leader himself and his cult which has nothing to do with Sikhi.
Let me ask you another question. What did GNNSJ do during the Tsunamis in Indonesia, Sri Lanka, India and during the earth quakes in Haiti where other Sikh organisations like the Khalsa Aid, United Sikhs, Satnaam Trust, Nanak Prachar Sabha and many others spent months and some are still there doing seva?
Let’s call a spade a spade. Gurmat values demand this from us.
You are one funny person to say the least. In the same post you said above, “and neither do I wish to judge it”. And here you are judging him. FYI, and I am sure you are aware of the fact which for the reasons known to you are ignoring it, Mohinder Singh, The Faith Leader IS the organisation. His only plans are to self promote himself from the very justifications given by you about him.
Does your Sikhi dictate you to nominate him as your Faith Leader as well?
In fact, I asked some questions about his organization to you in the same thread later on and you never responded to them. You can go through them again if you like especially about the women’s role and also eating meat which you called as a response as a contemporary thought which is totally untrue as mentioned by me because it is in the SRM which is as “contemporary” as it gets.
On one side, you claim no connection with the cult GNNSJ and under the same breath you go to great lengths defending the cult as you did in the thread below.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-gurus/29587-guru-nanak-in-uganda-africa.html
Regards
Tejwant Singh
Guru Fateh.
I expected this kind of response from you with frothing, ire and anger which is a shame. I hope I am wrong but from your post it seems that you have some kind of guilty conscious about what I wrote. The fact remains that you never gave any direct answers to my questions in this thread when it started nor in the other one whose url is posted below.
You skirted around them as a good rodeo rider and you kept on with your non answers in the same manner later on in the following thread where you avoided answering many of my questions. It is for all to see. This seems like your way when asked directly. Sikhi demands honesty and open-mindedness from us no matter how well layered our turbans and our fiftys (the mostly multi-layered head band under the turban which is not an under-turban) are.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-gurus/29587-guru-nanak-in-uganda-africa.html
You write:
I never said anything about your relationship with GNNSJ. You took that upon yourself which is a bit head scratching I must say and as mentioned above, it is your own guilty conscious for whatever reasons it may be. I only made the comparison with the Kathavaachak from GNNSJ and yourself because he reminded me of you as we often do in our lives when we meet other people and find some similarities with someone else we have also met. This is a natural human trait. Or do you claim of being absent of this human trait?
Arshi ji, here one can see the glimpse of your ire that you try to camouflage it behind your sort of kind words. If we were teenagers, which we are not, then I would understand your using the phrase “some what mischievous”. At this level of discussion we stoop ourselves to a very low level which is not a mature thing from a person of your claibre and ability. It is your mind playing these games with you and you seem to blame others for that, which is a shame.
Arshi Ji, this is not what you said in our following interaction. Why this double speak?
Arshi ji, I have no idea why you feel the need to defend yourself time and time again when I never said you had any connections with GNNSJ. Why this guilty feeling of some sort, I fail to understand that.
Thanks for proving my point. It is HIS popularity which has nothing to do with Sikhi. If we as Sikhs try to emulate even little of what our Gurus did, we will find out that they were against any popularity but to the contrary. This is why they never self-promoted themselves with self portraits or with any fancy titles. They rather gave themselves numbers not any titles such as Faith Leaders as Mohinder Singh has written on his website.
Is he your faith leader? I hope you respond to this important question.
He is not mine for sure. Sikhi has no faith leader but all the cults do. The part you ignore for the reasons known to yourself.
Here is what he calls himself on his website:
Guru Nanak Nishkam Sewak Jatha
Faith: Sikhism - Sikh Dharam
Faith Leader(s): Bhai Sahib Dr. Mohinder Singh Ji
Management: Bhai Sahib Dr. Mohinder Singh Ji (Chairman)
This is their website which talks about themselves:http://www.birminghamfaithmap.org.uk...php?placeID=25
So have many other Sikh trusts whose people are all sevadaars and none of them call themselves faith leaders which is a very important distinction in Sikhi. As mentioned before, only cults have that and all they care is about themselves and con the innocent in the name of Sikhi. GNNSJ is no different cult than Radasoamis and others who take advantage of Sikhi garb to fool others.
Here are some examples of the real Sikh trusts:
Satnaam Trust in BC Canada was the first to establish Khalsa Schools in BC and the schools rank number 10 among all the Schools. The same trust was responsible to open Khalsa Credit Union, the first of its kind in Canada. They have guest house for free for the visitors at Amritsar and supply books to 500 schools and give the salaries of the staffs of many Khalsa schools located in India along with their US affiliate called Nanak Parchar Sabha which organizes yearly Nagar Keertan in Los Angeles, have Birdh Ghar- home for the elderly, 500 students including adults are at their Sunday Punjabi/Gurmat School. The kids do Asa di Vaar every Sunday. They invited 300 families under privileged Christian families during Christmas, offered langar and gift packages. The same they did during Easter. They also have schools for free in India. But, yet all in the name of Sikhi, without any faith leader.
Thanks for proving my point again. It is all about the faith leader himself and his cult which has nothing to do with Sikhi.
Let me ask you another question. What did GNNSJ do during the Tsunamis in Indonesia, Sri Lanka, India and during the earth quakes in Haiti where other Sikh organisations like the Khalsa Aid, United Sikhs, Satnaam Trust, Nanak Prachar Sabha and many others spent months and some are still there doing seva?
Let’s call a spade a spade. Gurmat values demand this from us.
You are one funny person to say the least. In the same post you said above, “and neither do I wish to judge it”. And here you are judging him. FYI, and I am sure you are aware of the fact which for the reasons known to you are ignoring it, Mohinder Singh, The Faith Leader IS the organisation. His only plans are to self promote himself from the very justifications given by you about him.
Does your Sikhi dictate you to nominate him as your Faith Leader as well?
Yes, and I stand by it because you have skirted around the questions in two threads that we interacted in a serious manner.
In fact, I asked some questions about his organization to you in the same thread later on and you never responded to them. You can go through them again if you like especially about the women’s role and also eating meat which you called as a response as a contemporary thought which is totally untrue as mentioned by me because it is in the SRM which is as “contemporary” as it gets.
On one side, you claim no connection with the cult GNNSJ and under the same breath you go to great lengths defending the cult as you did in the thread below.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-gurus/29587-guru-nanak-in-uganda-africa.html
Regards
Tejwant Singh
Now, getting back to the title of the thread, “Five Realms”, many Sikh scholars have written about The Five Khands including our own, respected Arshi ji who has put a great effort in it. However, many questions still linger and remain unanswered.
As I mentioned earlier to Dal Singh ji in one of our interactions, that Jap is a beautifully strung necklace with 40 pearls which include the Moolmantar and the Salok along with 38 pauris. If we break this beautiful necklace, which is the summary of the SGGS, then all we are left with are scattered pearls on the floor with a loose string. Nothing more.
The same can be said about this thread which is nothing but some scattered pearls on the floor.
As Spadmin ji has put it eloquently that the whole Jap is about Khands and I tend to agree with her whole heartedly. In my own understanding, it is a totally futile effort to take some parts of Jap and interpret them.
The description of Khands start from Moolmantar to the 38 pauri and more important the Salok at the end summerises the whole Jap. It is not from 34 to 37 as many have claimed.
If one takes that approach as many have done including Arshi ji, then there is no other way but to see it from the eyes of Brahamvaad which is an insult to Guru Nanak and the whole Sikhi. It is much deeper than that.
Actually Dharam Khand starts on 35 with one liner and then Guru Sahib starts with Gyan Khand and he continues with Gyan Khand in Pauri 36 because there is much more to be said and then he adds Saram Khand in the same pauri. Then he talks about Karam Khand and Sach Khand in 37. 38 is the summary of all the Khands, then the end the Salok- The cliff note of Jap and the Jap is the cliff notes of the whole SGGS.
Let me put it in another way. If we take these Khands as standalone from a Sikhi view point, then these are just 5 instruments of the 40 piece orchestra including the Mool Mantar and the Salok. These 5 instruments on their own make a Hindutva noise and quite loudly I must add. What Guru Nanak did was to create an orchestra as a "Casio Synthesizer" where one can play the whole orchestra on his/her own. There are no snakes and ladders games here.
If we take these poetic intricacies and transport them to something tangible and a very important organ of ourselves called the brain which develops are thought process-Mann, then we realise how Guru Nanak has created brain/mind scan for all of us through Gurbani so that we can become better people with time and our footprints that we leave behind are etched in such a way that the others who follow our Gurmat thought process can benefit from it and hence evolve faster than we are which is happening daily on this speck of sand. It is a mind blowing phenomenon.
So in closing, I would like to say that let’s not scatter these pearls on the floor but wear this beautiful necklace around ourselves.
Let’s enjoy the whole 40 piece orchestra rather than hear the ear drums blowing deafening noise of a few cymbals.
Regards
Tejwant Singh
As I mentioned earlier to Dal Singh ji in one of our interactions, that Jap is a beautifully strung necklace with 40 pearls which include the Moolmantar and the Salok along with 38 pauris. If we break this beautiful necklace, which is the summary of the SGGS, then all we are left with are scattered pearls on the floor with a loose string. Nothing more.
The same can be said about this thread which is nothing but some scattered pearls on the floor.
As Spadmin ji has put it eloquently that the whole Jap is about Khands and I tend to agree with her whole heartedly. In my own understanding, it is a totally futile effort to take some parts of Jap and interpret them.
The description of Khands start from Moolmantar to the 38 pauri and more important the Salok at the end summerises the whole Jap. It is not from 34 to 37 as many have claimed.
If one takes that approach as many have done including Arshi ji, then there is no other way but to see it from the eyes of Brahamvaad which is an insult to Guru Nanak and the whole Sikhi. It is much deeper than that.
Actually Dharam Khand starts on 35 with one liner and then Guru Sahib starts with Gyan Khand and he continues with Gyan Khand in Pauri 36 because there is much more to be said and then he adds Saram Khand in the same pauri. Then he talks about Karam Khand and Sach Khand in 37. 38 is the summary of all the Khands, then the end the Salok- The cliff note of Jap and the Jap is the cliff notes of the whole SGGS.
Let me put it in another way. If we take these Khands as standalone from a Sikhi view point, then these are just 5 instruments of the 40 piece orchestra including the Mool Mantar and the Salok. These 5 instruments on their own make a Hindutva noise and quite loudly I must add. What Guru Nanak did was to create an orchestra as a "Casio Synthesizer" where one can play the whole orchestra on his/her own. There are no snakes and ladders games here.
If we take these poetic intricacies and transport them to something tangible and a very important organ of ourselves called the brain which develops are thought process-Mann, then we realise how Guru Nanak has created brain/mind scan for all of us through Gurbani so that we can become better people with time and our footprints that we leave behind are etched in such a way that the others who follow our Gurmat thought process can benefit from it and hence evolve faster than we are which is happening daily on this speck of sand. It is a mind blowing phenomenon.
So in closing, I would like to say that let’s not scatter these pearls on the floor but wear this beautiful necklace around ourselves.
Let’s enjoy the whole 40 piece orchestra rather than hear the ear drums blowing deafening noise of a few cymbals.
Regards
Tejwant Singh
This may just be my current understanding of khands, but personally I think that khands shouldnt be seen as seperate levels or stages that individuals have to acheive in succession to obtain spiritual enlightenment.
I feel as if we can exist in one or all of the different Khands at any different moment. I feel as if each khand has a place in daily life, and there is no 'stage' for us to be at. If there is a chronological order is because we so choose to perceive it. If we look at the Pauri's in Japji, Guruji isnt saying that this is the succession that one must go through, is appears to me that it simply outlines which each level may look like.
Like SPNji mentioned above, Japji in particular is about hukam. If khands are suppose to be 'stages' or 'level's' that we are to achieve then I believe it may be going against the meaning of the SGGS because it implies that there is a path (maarag) to god. Meaning that there is a set order that if we follow or obtain these levels then we will obtain God.
Lastly, who is going to tell you where your at? How can you ever truly understand which "Khand" you may be at... its beyond our own ability as human to ever judge it.... so its almost pointless to try to 'achieve' a level.
I feel as if we can exist in one or all of the different Khands at any different moment. I feel as if each khand has a place in daily life, and there is no 'stage' for us to be at. If there is a chronological order is because we so choose to perceive it. If we look at the Pauri's in Japji, Guruji isnt saying that this is the succession that one must go through, is appears to me that it simply outlines which each level may look like.
Like SPNji mentioned above, Japji in particular is about hukam. If khands are suppose to be 'stages' or 'level's' that we are to achieve then I believe it may be going against the meaning of the SGGS because it implies that there is a path (maarag) to god. Meaning that there is a set order that if we follow or obtain these levels then we will obtain God.
Lastly, who is going to tell you where your at? How can you ever truly understand which "Khand" you may be at... its beyond our own ability as human to ever judge it.... so its almost pointless to try to 'achieve' a level.
spnadmin ji
I have the greatest of respects for your posts and you had raised some excellent questions. It only felt as an inquisition, at the time, because this topic resurfaced so suddenly and I was not quite ready to accommodate so many questions. The inadequacy is in me and not in your question. I only expressed how I felt and was no criticism of your questions. As you know I have not contributed much on SPN (or any other forum for that matter) in the last year or so and virtually nothing, until now, for a number of months on SPN. I mainly confine myself to the threads featuring my articles or where I have a strong to comment. In this case I came in just to thank Lucky ji and Chaz ji for their appreciation of the thread. I do from time to time read articles of interest but getting involved in discussions, these days, tend to become counter-productive generating negative energies.
I am a mere learner at very basic stage of my spirituality and I can only ask Waheguru to give me vivek to understand Gurbani. May I keep my feet solidly on the ground but enjoy flights into the realms of spirituality, irrespective of the level.
When the Five Realms article written I had very little access to other articles on the topic – my version was primarily based on my understanding (not necessarily right) of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Japji Sahib, as you will appreciate (and acknowledged by most authors), is the most difficult of the Banis to translate. Hence we have the Bani of the Successor Gurus elaborating on this. The works of Bhai Gurdas ji also assist us in unraveling the difficult parts of Gurbani. Time, however, is always the major constraint in carrying out our research. On hindsight I feel I was rather ambitious. in my attempt of the interpretation of Pauris 34-37.
On reading some of the other contributions on Five Realms, I see authors are divided on this. I can now see where you are coming from. For example Baldev Singh j on Sikh Spectrum believes, and I quote “the five khands represent five different aspects of God-consciousness (Cosmic-consciousness), not five different stages of spiritual development in ascending order as described in earlier interpretations. http://sikhspectrum.com/2006/05/the-five-khands-realms-of-japji/
On the hand Jagjit Singh says that the “Five Khands, in the light of foregoing discussion, are in reality Regions, spheres or worlds like our own. These are certainly not the subject of mind’s imagination or flight, nor can these be construed as spiritual stages of Naam-practice. They are indeed part of the universal creation and fully inhabited.” http://gursikhijivan.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/5-realms-of-japji-sahib.html
And then there are interpretations in between the two. Lucky ji also kindly posted the views of Rawel Singh ji, for whom I have a lot of respect.
Reading some of the articles has set me thinking. I have some views but it is too early to express them. I have to carry on some research before I can express them on the internet, as you know if not handled thoughtfully it can offend many. I, sincerely, think our interpretation depends a lot on what we understand of the following:
1, Does the ‘jeev atma’ (soul) live on after mortal death?
2. Is there life after death?
3. Do we believe in reincarnation and Karma?
These, as you are fully aware, are also a few topics of interest, albiet controversial ones – and I have rather a lot to earn.
There is enough food for thought in the above without engaging in personalities, although I think Tejwant ji might feel there is still some unfinished business. 0
I have a busy day ahead of me and thought I should get this out of the way before I get tied up.
Most humbly
Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’
I have the greatest of respects for your posts and you had raised some excellent questions. It only felt as an inquisition, at the time, because this topic resurfaced so suddenly and I was not quite ready to accommodate so many questions. The inadequacy is in me and not in your question. I only expressed how I felt and was no criticism of your questions. As you know I have not contributed much on SPN (or any other forum for that matter) in the last year or so and virtually nothing, until now, for a number of months on SPN. I mainly confine myself to the threads featuring my articles or where I have a strong to comment. In this case I came in just to thank Lucky ji and Chaz ji for their appreciation of the thread. I do from time to time read articles of interest but getting involved in discussions, these days, tend to become counter-productive generating negative energies.
I am a mere learner at very basic stage of my spirituality and I can only ask Waheguru to give me vivek to understand Gurbani. May I keep my feet solidly on the ground but enjoy flights into the realms of spirituality, irrespective of the level.
When the Five Realms article written I had very little access to other articles on the topic – my version was primarily based on my understanding (not necessarily right) of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Japji Sahib, as you will appreciate (and acknowledged by most authors), is the most difficult of the Banis to translate. Hence we have the Bani of the Successor Gurus elaborating on this. The works of Bhai Gurdas ji also assist us in unraveling the difficult parts of Gurbani. Time, however, is always the major constraint in carrying out our research. On hindsight I feel I was rather ambitious. in my attempt of the interpretation of Pauris 34-37.
On reading some of the other contributions on Five Realms, I see authors are divided on this. I can now see where you are coming from. For example Baldev Singh j on Sikh Spectrum believes, and I quote “the five khands represent five different aspects of God-consciousness (Cosmic-consciousness), not five different stages of spiritual development in ascending order as described in earlier interpretations. http://sikhspectrum.com/2006/05/the-five-khands-realms-of-japji/
On the hand Jagjit Singh says that the “Five Khands, in the light of foregoing discussion, are in reality Regions, spheres or worlds like our own. These are certainly not the subject of mind’s imagination or flight, nor can these be construed as spiritual stages of Naam-practice. They are indeed part of the universal creation and fully inhabited.” http://gursikhijivan.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/5-realms-of-japji-sahib.html
And then there are interpretations in between the two. Lucky ji also kindly posted the views of Rawel Singh ji, for whom I have a lot of respect.
Reading some of the articles has set me thinking. I have some views but it is too early to express them. I have to carry on some research before I can express them on the internet, as you know if not handled thoughtfully it can offend many. I, sincerely, think our interpretation depends a lot on what we understand of the following:
1, Does the ‘jeev atma’ (soul) live on after mortal death?
2. Is there life after death?
3. Do we believe in reincarnation and Karma?
These, as you are fully aware, are also a few topics of interest, albiet controversial ones – and I have rather a lot to earn.
There is enough food for thought in the above without engaging in personalities, although I think Tejwant ji might feel there is still some unfinished business. 0
I have a busy day ahead of me and thought I should get this out of the way before I get tied up.
Most humbly
Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’
Re: Sadh Sangat: What Does it mean to You ?
arshi ji
I have worked for several hours on a vichaar of the paurees that are under the scanner, and others, and will be ready to post sometime later in the day. After considerable contemplation I must reply by saying I throw my lot with Guru Nanak's understanding, as opposed to the understanding of either Dr. Baldev Singh or Dr, Rawel Singh. Guru Nanak does not mention anything about ladders, steps, stages; leaving me wondering how these thoughts were introduced in the first place. Once I am finished I will know just how approximate my thinking is to that of either of the 2 good doctors. For now my money is on Guru Nanak. His language is simple and straightforward.
arshi ji
I have worked for several hours on a vichaar of the paurees that are under the scanner, and others, and will be ready to post sometime later in the day. After considerable contemplation I must reply by saying I throw my lot with Guru Nanak's understanding, as opposed to the understanding of either Dr. Baldev Singh or Dr, Rawel Singh. Guru Nanak does not mention anything about ladders, steps, stages; leaving me wondering how these thoughts were introduced in the first place. Once I am finished I will know just how approximate my thinking is to that of either of the 2 good doctors. For now my money is on Guru Nanak. His language is simple and straightforward.
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Re: Sadh Sangat: What Does it mean to You ?
spnadmin ji
Just stealing a few minutes of my lunch time! Yes when you have analysed the Pauris 34-37, that will be your understanding as is in the case of Dr Baldev Singh, Jagjit Singh ji and Rawel Singh ji and also my own understanding, which at the moment is open ended. In the final analysis my money too is always on Guru Nanak Patshah and I always invoke his guidance to enlighten me. However, it might take me longer – I am a slow learner.
Extremely grateful for your time ji. 0
Chardi kala ji.
Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’
spnadmin ji
Just stealing a few minutes of my lunch time! Yes when you have analysed the Pauris 34-37, that will be your understanding as is in the case of Dr Baldev Singh, Jagjit Singh ji and Rawel Singh ji and also my own understanding, which at the moment is open ended. In the final analysis my money too is always on Guru Nanak Patshah and I always invoke his guidance to enlighten me. However, it might take me longer – I am a slow learner.
Extremely grateful for your time ji. 0
Chardi kala ji.
Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’
Re: Sadh Sangat: What Does it mean to You ?
Spnadmin ji
Who am I to judge your capability? I have already admitted I am a slow learner and keeping an open mind on this. I am just grateful for the time you are spending on this.
Rajinder Singh 'Arshi'
Spnadmin ji
Who am I to judge your capability? I have already admitted I am a slow learner and keeping an open mind on this. I am just grateful for the time you are spending on this.
Rajinder Singh 'Arshi'
Imagine a simple compass with All Four Directions North, South, East and West.
____North
West+East
____South
We now that whatever direction we travel in the compass will always point North to show us our co-ordinates.
I can personally imagine the Four directions abpve as being Dharam khand,Gian khand,Saram Khand and Karam khand.
Now, what I also visualize is that all these directions can be our spiritual directions at any given time and these may point in different directions.
However, just like a compass points North from any given point anywhere,then in the same way they will always point or lead us to Sachkhand. -the realm of TRUTH.
It's as if all four directions have to be accessed and traveled on to be able to discover the realm or abode of Truth.
____North
West+East
____South
We now that whatever direction we travel in the compass will always point North to show us our co-ordinates.
I can personally imagine the Four directions abpve as being Dharam khand,Gian khand,Saram Khand and Karam khand.
Now, what I also visualize is that all these directions can be our spiritual directions at any given time and these may point in different directions.
However, just like a compass points North from any given point anywhere,then in the same way they will always point or lead us to Sachkhand. -the realm of TRUTH.
It's as if all four directions have to be accessed and traveled on to be able to discover the realm or abode of Truth.
Taranjeet singh
SPNer
Quoted the post of spnadmin
It is always nice to read your posts that are very carefully written and are full of our guidance. Kindly post all that you intend to. I shall be very grateful for this.
Regards.
It is always nice to read your posts that are very carefully written and are full of our guidance. Kindly post all that you intend to. I shall be very grateful for this.
Regards.
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