Dearest Harry - sorry for the long delay, been busy !
I do not recall saying I was a non Sikh
..you didn't ! you said something like, 'I don't think I'm even a Sikh'. This was said a while back when fists were flying, doors slammed and poor HKJ was at the receiving end !
I may have said I am not the same Sikh that you are
..yeah, I concede ! you're the modified and the latest edition. I'm out and you're in, thank God !
but I consider myself very much a Sikh.
..wow ! if you consider yourself to be a Sikh then I'm the
little red ridding hood dressed up as the big bad wolf enroute to meet grandma ! come on H - it's not the subjective sense of the self that defines who we are, it's what we do that determines our
true being. What is it that you do that defines the Sikh you ? Surely, not the human characterstics of compassion, empathy and the do good be good generics of the everyday jo blogg, for that'll be human nature and everyone is a champion. No, it has to be something more fundamental and a specific measure of the word "Sikh" with which you can identify and acclaim being a Sikh, mere lip service is insufficent. That's like wearing Manchester United's T-Shirt and acclaiming to be a football player !
hmm different to the individual maybe, but it would appear your state of naam could be another's tenth gate.
..naam n tenth gate are two different terms. Where the former a "source" of all known/unknown phenomena [say God], the latter is a spiritual numerical coordinate on the human body, located between the eye brows around the front cortex of the brain and succeeding as it were, the nine known physical cooordinates, namely, ears, nostrils...and so forth. The world of nam is an existence which is
"live" in the
physical world, as well as, in the
metaphysical world. Sikh spiritual is to an end where the
"live" connection can be had in the metaphysical world [anhad shabd] by the adept in the physical world [here n now] by the grace of God [Gur Prasad]. Whereas, the tenth gate is considered to be the
"stargate" to the metaphysical world, a coordinating point of entry to the unknown worlds of the soul. The spiritual travellers of the ancient past have named it "dasam dwar". In other words, a spiritual sign post saying, "welcome to spiritual excursions - hereinafter is the realm of the soul, the permanent home".
unless there is a definitive state that we can refer to, they are just words. Three states that cannot be described, largely due to the fact that they are personal, do not deserve three different words.
..tell me, what's north of the North Pole?
Ok, lets run with the analogy, but remember it is yours not mine.
Honestly speaking, it wasn't reasoning from parallel case [analogy] but more of a descriptive account, which is different from but analogous to the point in question, namely, personal, mystical n spiritual and why each must qualify in their own domain as independent of one another.
The one moon, I assume is the tenth gate, the reflections are the many different ways that people perceive it. However the reflections may be distorted, incomplete and not a true likeness, a mirror image at best, but still an image. So if I ask about the tenth gate, if I ask you about what the moon looks like, you will tell me, and when I compare it to the moon in the sky, I see your description is completely wrong, the craters that you describe as being on the left, are actually on the right, everything you are describing is actually reversed on the true image. Therefore what weight can I give your description? and how can I learn about the tenth gate from more than one person, each description will be different, if I were to describe the moon without looking at it, and rely on say a dozen descriptions based on mirror incomplete images, I may well be surprised when I see the true moon. Perhaps if folks stopped pretending to know what naam, the tenth gate and rising kundalini is, and merely described their own image instead, it might make the situation clearer.
..this was on my part a metaphor to show how "reality n truth" differ. That is to say, the moon in the sky at night is real but the reflections in numerious water holes on surface Earth are not real by the same measure of the word real. However, it is insufficenet to dismiss them as having non existence on account being mere reflections. Similarly, personal, mystical and spiritual, also qualify to be treated and studied as having independent existence. It was to this end a metaphor, I used.
but they are words, so they are in the formal logic domain, two people who claim to have opened the tenth gate could well be having two very different experiences, so the words 'tenth gate' mean nothing in the formal logic domain.
..can you draw me a round square or, find me a marriedbachlor; they are words aren't they ? What I meant was that the use of formal logic [linear cause n effect] is likely to create a paradox beacuse its intrinsically designed that way. For example, philosophers have argued, why create something [mystical experiences] and not provide language to express it ? Fair point ! And since, there is no short n curly answer but a conclusion that, since the organic relationship [expressing experience] exists in a dialectical setting, giving rise to as it were, 'this caused that...' one is likely to come stuck at a point in time where all sorts of reasoning collapes for not having a solid foundation in the first place, which by virute and defintion is a must for any logical calculations. That is to say, if one's starting point is something unknown [God], and one's conclusion and intermediate steps are made of the unknown, how can the resulting consistency ever by any manner of means become knowledge ?
well hang on a minute, your definitions of the above is different, and so is everyone else's, which rather renders the words as pointless.
..no two observers of the one phenomena will have ditto results, why ? Because of their vantage point and since God is ineffable, all attempts to capture with words will be in vain.
What you are saying is that those in the know, will understand, what I am saying is that they won't, they will just understand their own personal experience, to be honest, your supporting my argument, to have one word that correctly describes a deeply personal spiritual experience seems pointless, unless of course the tenth gate is not a deeply personal experience, unless the tenth gate is a definitive description of something, but then what is this definitive description, so which is it Originalji, is it a standard experience or a deeply personal one?
The spiritual science of the soul has its own language just as grammer and science of letters have their own. And, just as you would learn grammer n science of letters from basics, so would you learn the language of the spiritual science as you progress and mature. And just as you can feel the breeze by sitting close to the sea and warmth by sitting close to a fire, so can you feel the spiritual vibes when sitting close to Sri Guru Granth Sahib - try it !
you mean when one is in consonance? According to bani, how does one open the tenth gate? How does bani describe the tenth gate?
..bani is spiritual ! and spiritual is something that cannot be found over the internet or in external observances, but within - Sikhism suggests various mechanisims - starting with basic human characterestics such as, compassion, empathy, etc and then preparing the mind to "listen" to the "guru". Thereafter, Guru Ji moves in and the mind is silenced forever, how ? The mind is but a spark of the big flame God and merges, ceases to be independent but becomes the enjoyer of the bliss that God is. Bani is music to the ears, light to the eyes, food for the soul and abode of Akal Purakh.
What then is a state of Naam?
..what is not a state of nam ?
I will repeat my question, how can one tell the difference? May I ask you personally, have you opened the tenth gate, have you risen your kundalini, and have you experienced the state of naam?
..you're a beautiful individual trying to make sense of it all. So did I once. I don't know kundalini and wish not to, I don't know the tenth gate but believe it so, I don't know a great deal others profess to know, but I'm happy not knowing. I am my Guru Ji's Sikh, that I do know and that is all I want to know. What I know today is what my mother taught me from day dot, "waheguru satnam" and that is what I have passed on to my children, no more no less.
As regards spiritual excursions, they are beyond explanation. What I experience and go through in life can only be found in SGGSJ. The only way to sum it up is like Bhagat Kabir Ji said, "even if the seven seas were my ink, all the trees were my pens and the entire planet my paper, even then I can only express an iota of your being my lord".
Have a good day ! Until then be good -
Ciao
