Sikhi Thousand Lives Of Reincarnating Minds

[Harkiran Kaur]

Hello Harkiran

I can't speak for the Bhai, so only offer my own thoughts. Reading the question that is the first sentence, I wonder, could the meaning of gurmukh in this context then be 'gur'? If you are no longer manmukh, you are gurmukh, which is just gur, which is all that really exists anyway, right?

The rest that you wrote is as close to agreement as I think you and I have ever come. You said: "When all is understood at the base of everything to be ONE then who exactly is reincarnating?" My answer would be 'god'/guru/ik onkar whatever you want to call it. Because everything is ONE there isn't an individual mind that exists separate to do the reincarnating. The ONE has coalesced into what forms you and me, with our human minds, for the purpose of experiencing Itself (you quoted that in another post and it's beautiful), and once these human forms die and the minds cease to exist, there will only be the ONE again, which may coalesce into a rock or a snake or a black hole on the other side of the galaxy - but would you really say that is 'you' reincarnating?

I love the idea that from energy we come and to energy we will return. The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius sums it up rather well in the 2nd century CE, I think:

"I am made up of the causal and the material. Neither of these will disappear into nothing, just as neither came to be out of nothing. So every part of me will be assigned its changed place in some part of the universe, and that will change again into another part of the universe, and so on to infinity. A similar sequence of change brought me into existence, and my parents before me, and so back to another infinity of regression. Nothing forbids this assertion, even if the universe is subject to the completion of cycles." - Meditations, Book 5, 13

Hmmm how can I coax the aha moment since you are ALMOST at the point how I see things. The only difference is you still think in terms that YOU are Ishna. What if tomorrow you woke up from an accident with absolute amnesia... meaning you can’t remeber ANY part of your identity from your whole life. You still know language etc but not your identity as Ishna. This HAS happened to many people by the way and sometimes permanent. Even though Ishna has been erased is there still an awareness there? Just because you can’t remember being Ishna does it mean YOU died??? No! Because YOU are not Ishna. Just like an actor plays a character. When the costume is removed the character is meaningless... the actor didn’t die or cease to exist. The conscious doer or observer who was the actor went on to play other parts. These identities we think we are is called the haume. The ego identity. It’s false. Remove that identity and a primal awareness of being still exists and always will exist. That primal being or awareness is one and the same in ALL. Your awareness IS that ONE awareness.

So yes there is One universal observer / Creator. That one is the same awareness of being in ALL. The observer in each human body never ceases to exist and goes on to experience others. The CHARACTER ceases to exist but the consciousness is not the character. You could say Ishna will die someday in this dream but YOU are not Ishna. Ishna is only one character YOU have played. YOU ARE the one experiencing itself. (Recognize he IS me).

At least this is how I have come to understand it through not just Gurbani but theology in general and seeing similarities in many different paths.

 

[Ishna]

Naw, I was trying to coax your aha moment. Better luck next time.

Ishna doesn't even exist outside of a temporary illusion of Ishna-ness. There is only god. That is why reincarnation isn't a thing, because there is no unique you that reincarnates. Just god, doing its thing.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Naw, I was trying to coax your aha moment. Better luck next time.

Ishna doesn't even exist outside of a temporary illusion of Ishna-ness. There is only god. That is why reincarnation isn't a thing, because there is no unique you that reincarnates. Just god, doing its thing.

Well there is insomuch as an actor incarnates every time they play a new part. The conscious part of the character is really the actor. The character had no conscious awareness or existence. We’d think it was silly to ask the question “Does Hamlet reincarnate when the play is over?” Of course Hamlet doesn’t. Hamlet is inconsequential and false. It’s the actor who is the ‘entity’.

 

[Ishna]

I gave you an 'agree' tick. I wonder if it will break the server? hehehe

 

[Harry Haller]

I already have look above. Also since we all have to state that interpretations are our own understanding and not ‘fact’ I guess that applies to you too... or else the Harry patrol will come in. One camp can’t say outright their interpretation IS Sikhi while the other gets slammed and told to say its THEIR understanding only. It’s ALL our own understanding.
Or can we just assume that everyone posts according to their own understanding and some will agree and some will disagree? In this case Bhai Harbans Lal Ji posts according to his understanding as well, abd we can’t say definitively that IS Sikhi view on reincarnation because plenty disagree. I think we should just allow each other to post and not jump down each other’s throats... Harry Ji??

On reflection, your correct, everyone uses similar terminology, I accept I was wrong to chastise you for that, yes, we should be allowed to post and not jump down each others throats, and yes, it is a complete waste of time arguing about such when we should be arguing about content, I am happy to argue about content only, I apologise for any offence caused.

 

[Harry Haller]

Well there is insomuch as an actor incarnates every time they play a new part. The conscious part of the character is really the actor. The character had no conscious awareness or existence. We’d think it was silly to ask the question “Does Hamlet reincarnate when the play is over?” Of course Hamlet doesn’t. Hamlet is inconsequential and false. It’s the actor who is the ‘entity’.

so back to content, my issue with this is simple, if you really really believed this, would not your life be hugely different? This life would but a tiny dot on all your lives, why give it any consequence?, why have any dreams? why care at all? why not just learn as much as you can in this life and then get ready for the next one? why immerse yourself in the petty and the base? Why yearn for anything? why fall in love? Surely all these things are very real to you, just as it is very real to get angry or passionate, if you what you say is correct, then we are actors who do not know we are actors, yet you do, does that not make a difference to the acting?

 

[Original]

Respected Bhai Harbans Lal Ji

I enjoyed reading your article and feel you should've held on to your guns with the original theory of reincarnation; why reinvent the wheel to fit into a square box ? And isn't a "theory" constructed to supports an ideology/phenomena ? The ideology "maya - mahadev" [illusion vs ultimate reality] is what Nanak inherited and shaped it into Gurmat [reunification of the soul with ultimate reality, meaning God].

I have few observations of my own, pls permit me to proceed - thank you !

Sikh theology differs in defining reincarnation.

pls provide verifiable evidence - thank you !

However, the ideas remain ideas only, and have never reached any logical or precise description.

..how can reason and sense data investigate something that is beyond their remit ? The theory reincarnation, is of the "soul" and not of the mind ? For if the mind was to reincarnate, it would by definition be carrying all its extras [memory, knowledge, logic, rationality, intelligence, etc] wouldn't it ? That is to say, the whole brain functioning in the body will reincarnate. If that'd be correct then we'd be able to recall memories of past events, and ultimately, of past lives. How will evolution deal with such dysfunctional phobia ?

At the outset, the present descriptions of reincarnation defy modern logic,

..that's pretty much dependent on context and perspective...

most religious leaders shrewdly shy away from offering any reasonable explanation.

..again depends on your vantage point and system of belief...

Vedic traditions consider the release from the cycle of rebirths as the ultimate spiritual goal and call the liberation by terms such as moksha, nirvana, mukti, and kaivalya.

..that'll be teleology Sir !

Here, I wish to put together the view expressed by the authors of the Guru Granth

..all the authors [except 3 I think] were of the one dominant ideology, Hinduism. And, unless these authors parachuted from planet Pluto their view of reincarnation couldn't be anything but Hindu. So what is the source of their view which you wish to express ?

the sacred scripture presently in the custodianship of the Sikhs.

..are you insinuating that someone else in the future will be the custodian of SGGSJ and not the Sikhs ? Hmnnn ! sounds plausible given SGGSJ is universal -

...more after the break....stay tuned

 

[Original]

Ishna

Ishna is a name in the physical world and, a beautiful one at that [human], And in the spiritual world, Ishna is "nam" [God].

 

[Ishna]

so back to content, my issue with this is simple, if you really really believed this, would not your life be hugely different? This life would but a tiny dot on all your lives, why give it any consequence?, why have any dreams? why care at all? why not just learn as much as you can in this life and then get ready for the next one? why immerse yourself in the petty and the base? Why yearn for anything? why fall in love? Surely all these things are very real to you, just as it is very real to get angry or passionate, if you what you say is correct, then we are actors who do not know we are actors, yet you do, does that not make a difference to the acting?

Not speaking for Harkiran - I'm sure she'll respond - just sharing my own thoughts which might be unrelated.

To me, the 'actor' is not unique, it is literally god, who is expressed in creation in infinite ways. To a degree, then, Ishna's life is indeed an inconsequential tiny dot in time and space. Temporary and flimsy. However, Ishna can sense god (in some small way), Ishna has responsibilities in the world, and Ishna can do her best while she's alive to do her part within the laws of nature. Ishna can use that god-given ability to reason and sing god's praises, any hopefully help some others to do the same so they can connect to god, too. Or rather, become aware of their ever-present connectedness.

I restate my own squeaky wheel analogy. God is a hand, a person is a glove. The glove wears out, is discarded, ceases to exist, but the hand goes on to wear another glove. As the glove, however, I cease to exist. There is only god. As the glove, I won't presume to declare myself to be the whole hand.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

so back to content, my issue with this is simple, if you really really believed this, would not your life be hugely different? This life would but a tiny dot on all your lives, why give it any consequence?, why have any dreams? why care at all? why not just learn as much as you can in this life and then get ready for the next one? why immerse yourself in the petty and the base? Why yearn for anything? why fall in love? Surely all these things are very real to you, just as it is very real to get angry or passionate, if you what you say is correct, then we are actors who do not know we are actors, yet you do, does that not make a difference to the acting?

Because Harry Ji, for the same reasons a seasoned artist moves beyond childish finger paintings (mostly) To ever more complex works of art. Or the same reason a musician moves beyond twinkle twinkle little star... There IS a purpose behind this duality, or it wouldn’t exist. I’ll leave it to you to figure on your own.

 

[Harry Haller]

Because Harry Ji, for the same reasons a seasoned artist moves beyond childish finger paintings (mostly) To ever more complex works of art. Or the same reason a musician moves beyond twinkle twinkle little star... There IS a purpose behind this duality, or it wouldn’t exist. I’ll leave it to you to figure on your own.

My belief system does not match yours, so I would ask what yours is, given the conclusions you have come to,

 

[Original]

To me, the 'actor' is not unique

..if that was the case then why didn't evolution spun-off all human beings of the one mould, like the ginger bread men ?

For your information, airports around the world will be using biometrics to scan your UNIQUE physical attributes that will ultimately replace all forms of travel documentation. Have a rethink and lets zoom-in on the "unique" Ishna !

Good night

 

[RicktheSikh]

Well there is insomuch as an actor incarnates every time they play a new part. The conscious part of the character is really the actor. The character had no conscious awareness or existence. We’d think it was silly to ask the question “Does Hamlet reincarnate when the play is over?” Of course Hamlet doesn’t. Hamlet is inconsequential and false. It’s the actor who is the ‘entity’.

I like this analogy. To take it a step further, I would ask why the sins and good deeds of Hamlet would count for or against Othello's rebirth? They are both just characters that the One Actor is playing.

I am having a hard time understanding the concept of reincarnation without karma as a factor. I have never been a believer in the reincarnation until reading Gurbani. Now i find myself puzzled as to how to feel about it. This isn't just addressed to you, Harkiran, as i don't know where you stand as far as your belief in karma as it relates to reincarnation.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

I am having a hard time understanding the concept of reincarnation without karma as a factor. I have never been a believer in the reincarnation until reading Gurbani. Now i find myself puzzled as to how to feel about it. This isn't just addressed to you, Harkiran, as i don't know where you stand as far as your belief in karma as it relates to reincarnation.

Although Sikhi acknowledges the belief of reincarnation in Hinduism, it vehemently rejects the same in Sikhi. The Gurbani in the SGGS is its proof.

Having said that, I would like anyone to post any FULL Shabad from the SGGS that proves their claim of reincarnation as part of Sikhi so all of us can learn from them.
Thanks.

 

[RicktheSikh]

Tejwant ji,

This passage confuses me. It seems to fully support the idea of reincarnation which opens a huge can of worms for me in regard to the notion of duality vs. oneness. If karma and reincarnation are real then are we actually living in duality until such time as we realize oneness? If you could shed some light on this as per your understanding it would be greatly appreciated.

From page 526:
ਗੂਜਰੀ ॥
गूजरी ॥
Gūjrī.
Goojaree:

ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲਛਮੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
अंति कालि जो लछमी सिमरै ऐसी चिंता महि जे मरै ॥
Anṯ kāl jo lacẖẖmī simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.
At the very last moment, one who thinks of wealth, and dies in such thoughts,

ਸਰਪ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੧॥
सरप जोनि वलि वलि अउतरै ॥१॥
Sarap jon val val a▫uṯarai. ||1||
shall be reincarnated over and over again, in the form of serpents. ||1||

ਅਰੀ ਬਾਈ ਗੋਬਿਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਤਿ ਬੀਸਰੈ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
अरी बाई गोबिद नामु मति बीसरै ॥ रहाउ ॥
Arī bā▫ī gobiḏ nām maṯ bīsrai. Rahā▫o.
O sister, do not forget the Name of the Lord of the Universe. ||Pause||

ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
अंति कालि जो इसत्री सिमरै ऐसी चिंता महि जे मरै ॥
Anṯ kāl jo isṯarī simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.
At the very last moment, he who thinks of women, and dies in such thoughts,

ਬੇਸਵਾ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੨॥
बेसवा जोनि वलि वलि अउतरै ॥२॥
Besvā jon val val a▫uṯarai. ||2||
shall be reincarnated over and over again as a prostitute. ||2||

ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲੜਿਕੇ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
अंति कालि जो लड़िके सिमरै ऐसी चिंता महि जे मरै ॥
Anṯ kāl jo laṛike simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.
At the very last moment, one who thinks of his children, and dies in such thoughts,

ਸੂਕਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੩॥
सूकर जोनि वलि वलि अउतरै ॥३॥
Sūkar jon val val a▫uṯarai. ||3||
shall be reincarnated over and over again as a pig. ||3||

ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਮੰਦਰ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
अंति कालि जो मंदर सिमरै ऐसी चिंता महि जे मरै ॥
Anṯ kāl jo manḏar simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.
At the very last moment, one who thinks of mansions, and dies in such thoughts,

ਪ੍ਰੇਤ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੪॥
प्रेत जोनि वलि वलि अउतरै ॥४॥
Pareṯ jon val val a▫uṯarai. ||4||
shall be reincarnated over and over again as a goblin. ||4||

ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣੁ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
अंति कालि नाराइणु सिमरै ऐसी चिंता महि जे मरै ॥
Anṯ kāl nārā▫iṇ simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.
At the very last moment, one who thinks of the Lord, and dies in such thoughts,

ਬਦਤਿ ਤਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਤੇ ਨਰ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਪੀਤੰਬਰੁ ਵਾ ਕੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਸੈ ॥੫॥੨॥
बदति तिलोचनु ते नर मुकता पीत्मबरु वा के रिदै बसै ॥५॥२॥
Baḏaṯ ṯilocẖan ṯe nar mukṯā pīṯambar vā ke riḏai basai. ||5||2||
says Trilochan, that man shall be liberated; the Lord shall abide in his heart. ||5||2||

 

[Tejwant Singh]

ਅਰੀ ਬਾਈ ਗੋਬਿਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਤਿ ਬੀਸਰੈ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
अरी बाई गोबिद नामु मति बीसरै ॥ रहाउ ॥
Arī bā▫ī gobiḏ nām maṯ bīsrai. Rahā▫o.
O sister, do not forget the Name of the Lord of the Universe. ||Pause||

RicktheSikhji,

First, a bit of historical background is needed here. Bhagat Trilochan was born in the 13th century long before Guru Nanak. He was born during the time when caste system was the law of the land. In all his 4 Shabads in the SGGS, he mocks the uselessness of thoughtless rituals 2 centuries before even Guru Nanak came on this speck. As Sikhi is an idea based pragmatic way of life, Guru Arjan added the Shabads of the likeminded people.

If we focus on the main idea in the Rahao verse above, it urges us to be The Source centred beings. If not, then we will become whatever we think during our last moments. Bhagat Trilochan explains this in a very succulent and sarcastic manner because the belief in reincarnation in Hinduism is based on caste system, which means a low caste Hindu can only be reincarnated as a low caste no matter how many lifetimes he/she goes through.

The last verse offers us "The Magic Key" to get rid of this belief.

ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣੁ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
अंति कालि नाराइणु सिमरै ऐसी चिंता महि जे मरै ॥
Anṯ kāl nārā▫iṇ simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.
At the very last moment, one who thinks of the Lord, and dies in such thoughts,

ਬਦਤਿ ਤਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਤੇ ਨਰ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਪੀਤੰਬਰੁ ਵਾ ਕੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਸੈ ॥੫॥੨॥
बदति तिलोचनु ते नर मुकता पीत्मबरु वा के रिदै बसै ॥५॥२॥
Baḏaṯ ṯilocẖan ṯe nar mukṯā pīṯambar vā ke riḏai basai. ||5||2||
says Trilochan, that man shall be liberated; the Lord shall abide in his heart. ||5||2||

This is all based on the "Purity" mindset of Hinduism. It was a common belief then that even if the shadow of a low caste Hindu overshadowed on the body of the Puritan, it made him impure. As a result, The Puritan used to rush home to take bath in order to get rid of the impure shadow.

Bhagat Namdev who was also born during the same time period as Bhagat Trilochan, long before Sikhi came into existence, mocks "Purity" in the Shabad in the podcast where Harinder Singh puts his succulence in its explanation.
Enjoy!

Sikh Cast Ep29 - \

 

[RicktheSikh]

If we focus on the main idea in the Rahao verse above, it urges us to be The Source centred beings. If not, then we will become whatever we think during our last moments.

My take on the rahao verse matches yours

Bhagat Trilochan explains this in a very succulent and sarcastic manner because the belief in reincarnation in Hinduism is based on caste system, which means a low caste Hindu can only be reincarnated as a low caste no matter how many lifetimes he/she goes through.

Is that the case? Or is the caste system based on the belief in reincarnation? It's easy to see how social stratification could occur in a society that holds reincarnation to be true. It seems less likely that the political and social forces that would benefit from a low mobility social structure could create an entire belief system and then convince the masses to accept that belief that would in turn oppress them.

The last verse offers us "The Magic Key" to get rid of this belief.

I see how the caste system is being rejected here, in that Trilochan is telling the reader that there is an escape from rebirth but I don't see how the concept of reincarnation is being rejected.

There are so many mentions of reincarnation in gurbani that it seems not quite right to try to scrub the idea from Sikhi altogether.

[edited to tidy formatting. -Ishna]

 

[Harry Haller]

well, there are many mentions of the word elephant, 111 times to be precise, against 387 for reincarnation, to be on the safe side, should we keep elephants as pets?

 

[RicktheSikh]

well, there are many mentions of the word elephant, 111 times to be precise, against 387 for reincarnation, to be on the safe side, should we keep elephants as pets?

That's neither here nor there. What I'm saying is that of all the mentions of reincarnation that I have read in gurbani I have yet to come across any that flatly reject the concept. It is usually to the effect that one can escape the cycle but not that the belief itself is false.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

My take on the rahao verse matches yours

[QUOTE =]Bhagat Trilochan explains this in a very succulent and sarcastic manner because the belief in reincarnation in Hinduism is based on caste system, which means a low caste Hindu can only be reincarnated as a low caste no matter how many lifetimes he/she goes through.

[QUOTE =]Is that the case? Or is the caste system based on the belief in reincarnation? It's easy to see how social stratification could occur in a society that holds reincarnation to be true. It seems less likely that the political and social forces that would benefit from a low mobility social structure could create an entire belief system and then convince the masses to accept that belief that would in turn oppress them.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE =]The last verse offers us "The Magic Key" to get rid of this belief.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE =]I see how the caste system is being rejected here, in that Trilochan is telling the reader that there is an escape from rebirth but I don't see how the concept of reincarnation is being rejected.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE =]There are so many mentions of reincarnation in gurbani that it seems not quite right to try to scrub the idea from Sikhi altogether.[/QUOTE]

RicktheSikhji,

It matters naught how many times a word is repeated in the SGGS, reincarnation in this case. The important thing is to see why it is mentioned and in what context. In this particular case, the history shows that even the Hindus who came 100's of years before Guru Nanak were also uneasy with this blind belief of reincarnation in the cul de sac of life.
The fact is that if one is spiritually poor because of the caste system, reincarnation has been the weapon to be used as a curse by the stiff upper lip honchos of Hinduism against those who were designated as low castes hence poor spiritually and shall remain so for many lives to come as per the belief.
In other words, reincarnation has been used in India to suppress even more the suppressed.