Learn Punjabi Translations And Transliterations Of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues And Controversies

[Randip Singh]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Randip ji

You are making sense. You will notice that where pk70 and I disagree is about the "Shaykh." This passage is to my way of thinking using the shaykh as a metaphor (even it was a real shaykh) to make a vivid point. Have to run, but would like your indulgence to continue in more detail later.

Shaykh, Sheikh is an elder.

But in this context where they are describing Islam , it means one who dilligently follows Islam!

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Shaykh, Sheikh is an elder.

But in this context where they are describing Islam , it means one who dilligently follows Islam!

Randip ji

Backing into some earlier posts, this was the difference of opinion over "Shaykh." pk70 ji said that the shabad is addressed to a real person, who is a shaykh; and I maintained the "shaykh" was a symbol of false ego that had been taken over by greed. My understanding is based on the fact that a shaykh is the "head" -- an elder a leader. Both of us agreed that the shabad was teaching us that the road to purity of mind was not through ritual sacrifice but through the ritual of slaughtering the arrogance that leads us to greed, with the knife of Truth that had been sharpened on the grindstone of the Shabad.

Having said this, yes, the shabad is pointedly an allusion to the Muslim ritual of halaal. Halaal is believed to restore balance and purity of body and mind. The shabad is saying, No, ritual slaughter, the slaughter of animals, will not restore balance and purity to mind and body. The only way to achieve balance and purity is through the the Shabad.

The vichaar that we get from this is not directed only at Muslims or only to the slaughter of animals, except in the most literal way. I am suggesting that the Shaykh is a metaphor for anyone whose mind is filled with impurity and greed, and thinks that rituals, halaal and other rituals, will lead to purity. I am also suggesting the the entire Shabad is a larger metaphor, containing the more specific metaphor of the Shaykh. The metaphor of the shabad asks us to compare a ritual (halaal) that is cruel, oppressive, and ineffective to a ritual that is truly purifying (slaughter by a knife sharpened on the grindstone of the Shabad).

Gurbani is consistent throughout in its message. There are many other examples where the Gurus speak using metaphors that contrast what liberates us (The Shabad) and what does not (ritual patterns that are cultural inventions). This shabad, in my humble opinion, is raising awareness, teaching "viveka" or discernment. It is not forbidding halaal, rather it is asking us to think about ritual slaughter and it is pointing in another direction toward what it is that really deserves to be slaughtered if we seek to be pure.

As an aside -- the same invocation in halaal when an animal is slaughtered is also used when a woman is stoned. Ala Akhbar! The tribe is purified by the slaughter of a woman in the same way. And no one was unaware in the time of the Gurus that the burning of widows, sati, by Hindus was another ritual sanctionned by religion.

Not to go off too far into interfaith comparisons, I want to come back to Gurbani.
Similar images and themes can be found in the verses below, on Ang 1412, and preceding Guru Nanak's hymn of moral outrage regarding the destruction of Lahore:

ਜਉ ਤਉ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਖੇਲਣ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥
jo tho praem khaelan kaa chaao ||
If you desire to play this game of love with Me,

ਸਿਰੁ ਧਰਿ ਤਲੀ ਗਲੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਉ ॥
sir dhhar thalee galee maeree aao ||
then step onto My Path with your head in hand.

ਇਤੁ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪੈਰੁ ਧਰੀਜੈ ॥
eith maarag pair dhhareejai ||
When you place your feet on this Path,

ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਕਾਣਿ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ॥੨੦॥
sir dheejai kaan n keejai ||20||
give Me your head, and do not pay any attention to public opinion. ||20||

ਨਾਲਿ ਕਿਰਾੜਾ ਦੋਸਤੀ ਕੂੜੈ ਕੂੜੀ ਪਾਇ ॥
naal kiraarraa dhosathee koorrai koorree paae ||
False is friendship with the false and greedy. False is its foundation.

ਮਰਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਪੈ ਮੂਲਿਆ ਆਵੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਥਾਇ ॥੨੧॥
maran n jaapai mooliaa aavai kithai thhaae ||21||
O Moollah, no one knows where death shall strike. ||21||

ਗਿਆਨ ਹੀਣੰ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਪੂਜਾ ॥
giaan heenan agiaan poojaa ||
Without spiritual wisdom, the people worship ignorance.

ਅੰਧ ਵਰਤਾਵਾ ਭਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੨੨॥
andhh varathaavaa bhaao dhoojaa ||22||
They grope in the darkness, in the love of duality. ||22||

ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥
gur bin giaan dhharam bin dhhiaan ||
Without the Guru, there is no spiritual wisdom; without Dharma, there is no meditation.
ਸਚ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਾਖੀ ਮੂਲੋ ਨ ਬਾਕੀ ॥੨੩॥
sach bin saakhee moolo n baakee ||23||
Without Truth, there is no credit; without capital, there is no balance. ||23||

ਮਾਣੂ ਘਲੈ ਉਠੀ ਚਲੈ ॥
maanoo ghalai outhee chalai ||
The mortals are sent into the world; then, they arise and depart.

ਸਾਦੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਇਵੇਹੀ ਗਲੈ ॥੨੪॥
saadh naahee eivaehee galai ||24||
There is no joy in this. ||24||

There is no joy in what? Well, the shabad again references Islamic oppression. The historical context is the destruction of Lahore. We have this time a reference not to a shaykh but to a "moollah." It is likely that this moollah was a real person in the historical record of the destruction of Lahore. I also believe that the "moollah" is a metaphor for false ego, the arrogance of power. The message of the first shabad is retold by the second shabad in similar words about Greed and Truth. Friendship with the greedy is false, without wisdom worship is ignorance, without the Guru there is no wisdom, without Truth there is no credit, without capital there is no balance. And again there is a striking image of the kind of killing that is necessary to gain wisdom: ਸਿਰੁ ਧਰਿ ਤਲੀ ਗਲੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਉ ॥ sir dhhar thalee galee maeree aao || then step onto My Path with your head in hand.

So here we have greed, oppression, falseness, imbalance, set in the context of islamic oppression in India. True, halaal is not mentioned. In this shabad the knife of Truth is missing. However, the price of Truth is to loose one's head.

There is another shabad with the same kind of message. i will hold off for now.

 

[pk70]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Halaal is believed to restore balance and purity of body and mind. The shabad is saying, No, ritual slaughter, the slaughter of animals, will not restore balance and purity to mind and body. The only way to achieve balance and purity is through the the Shabad.( quote aad0002 Ji)

Exactly aad Ji. This is the essence of Guru Message. Shekh( the lder/considered wise person/religious leader) is addressed with a reason. Questioning "Halaal" and telling Him, if "Halaal" is needed( as it was advocated by them), it is to Halaal ego, greed etc. not animals. It is extremely beautiful in a way to give new meaning to the "word Halaal"

 

[Sikh80]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Sikh80 Jio

Coming back to your question, it is already answered in my post in answer to ax0547 Ji’s question. Well, may be in a hurry you missed it. Here it is
ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਘਰੁ ੪ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1 gẖar 4.
Sri Rag, First Guru.
ਏਕਾ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਜੇਤੇ ਹੈ ਜੀਅ ॥
Ėkā suraṯ jeṯe hai jī▫a.
There is the same inner conscious-ness amongst all the beings.
ਸੁਰਤਿ ਵਿਹੂਣਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਕੀਅ ॥
Suraṯ vihūṇā ko▫e na kī▫a.
Without inner consciousness He has created none.5
ਜੇਹੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਤੇਹਾ ਤਿਨ ਰਾਹੁ ॥
Jehī suraṯ ṯehā ṯin rāhu.
As is the consciousness, so is their way.
ਲੇਖਾ ਇਕੋ ਆਵਹੁ ਜਾਹੁ ॥੧॥
Lekẖā iko āvhu jāhu. ||1||
He alone (call mortals) to account (and subject) to his order they come and go. ( here His Hukam and our participation is expressed)

Karma occurs as per “SURAT”, by the way why Karmas are numbered as first one or the last one. When child takes birth, it cries to breathe, that is the first Karma known to us, reaction is” oxygen” going in to keep the continuity of life. If you want more detail, going back to in pregnancy state, here is Guru Bachan
ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਪਹਰੇ ਘਰੁ ੧ ॥ Sri Rag, First Guru.
ਪਹਿਲੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਰੈਣਿ ਕੈ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਪਇਆ ਗਰਭਾਸਿ ॥ ਉਰਧ ਤਪੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਖਸਮ ਸੇਤੀ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ॥ ਖਸਮ ਸੇਤੀ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ਵਖਾਣੈ ਉਰਧ ਧਿਆਨਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗਾ ॥ ਨਾ ਮਰਜਾਦੁ ਆਇਆ ਕਲਿ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਬਾਹੁੜਿ ਜਾਸੀ ਨਾਗਾ ॥ ਜੈਸੀ ਕਲਮ ਵੁੜੀ ਹੈ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਤੈਸੀ ਜੀਅੜੇ ਪਾਸਿ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਪਹਿਲੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਪਇਆ ਗਰਭਾਸਿ ॥੧॥ In the first watch of night O my merchant friend! by Lord's order, Thou were cast into the womb. With body reversed Thou performed penance within and prayed to thy Master, O my merchant friend! Upside down Thou said prayers unto the Lord with fixed attention and affection. Thou came against manner (naked) in the dark-age (world) and again, shall depart naked. Such cargo shall be with the mortal, as God's pen has recorded on his brow.5 Nanak, in the first watch, Soul descends into the womb by Lord's will.

Thanks you sir for your reply.

I have not missed anything that you have posted in this post or in 'The Naam simran and failure'. I shall respond to that as well after sometime when I am free of some unfinished jobs at the site.

However, right now I can say with full confidence that Nanak-1 has brushed aside this reasoning of 'first Karama' by not stating much. I expected a different reply from a learned man of your stature.

There is only a single line where Nanak-1 seems to be asking or addressing that would mean 'Can you tell how God give the first Karma'. I may be slightly off right now but in essence this is the meaning of the 'tuk'
If you get hold of the line ,you may post or else I shall do some work and shall post .

I expect no reply to this and it may not be answered in hurry, Respected PK70 ji.

With warm Regards!

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

This is it. Or am I missing something?

first watch of night O my merchant friend! by Lord's order, Thou were cast into the womb. With body reversed Thou performed penance within and prayed to thy Master, O my merchant friend! Upside down Thou said prayers unto the Lord with fixed attention and affection. Thou came against manner (naked) in the dark-age (world) and again, shall depart naked. Such cargo shall be with the mortal, as God's pen has recorded on his brow.5 Nanak, in the first watch, Soul descends into the womb by Lord's will.

The first watch, the second watch, and so forth, are the progression of karams.If you make and effort and if you are blessed, then there is a progression -- otherwise...

 

[pk70]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Thanks you sir for your reply.

I have not missed anything that you have posted in this post or in 'The Naam simran and failure'. I shall respond to that as well after sometime when I am free of some unfinished jobs at the site.

However, right now I can say with full confidence that Nanak-1 has brushed aside this reasoning of 'first Karama' by not stating much. I expected a different reply from a learned man of your stature.

There is only a single line where Nanak-1 seems to be asking or addressing that would mean 'Can you tell how God give the first Karma'. I may be slightly off right now but in essence this is the meaning of the 'tuk'
If you get hold of the line ,you may post or else I shall do some work and shall post .

With warm Regards!

Sorry to state Sikh 80 ji, I couldn't make any thing out of your comments. I am not sure what you are saying in context of Guru Nanak's brushing aside this reasoning.
By the way, please do not give me high marks like" learned man of your staure" because personally this is what I don't need from any one. Thanks with sorry.

 

[ax0547]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Dear pk70 ji,

It is a nice write up. Coming to the root of Karma, kindly answer

1.From where did we get the first Karma?
2.Does Gurbani has an answer to the above? I would be interested in the Bani of Gurus and not Bhagats. However, if you find no answer you may kindly quote from Bhagats Bani.

Kindly quote the 'Tuks'.
I shall be very grateful.


However, right now I take your leave .It is 4th November here.
Sikh80 Jio
First of all, I must make clear to you that Bani by Bhagatas Ji is also Gurbani, when some one asks that he/she is interested only in answer given through Bani written by Guru Sahibaan only, I really feel sorry because I feel, what does it matter? There is nothing in SGGS Ji which is not in alignment with Message of Guru Nanak.

Coming back to your question, it is already answered in my post in answer to ax0547 Ji’s question. Well, may be in a hurry you missed it. Here it is
ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਘਰੁ ੪ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1 gẖar 4.
Sri Rag, First Guru.
ਏਕਾ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਜੇਤੇ ਹੈ ਜੀਅ ॥
Ėkā suraṯ jeṯe hai jī▫a.
There is the same inner conscious-ness amongst all the beings.
ਸੁਰਤਿ ਵਿਹੂਣਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਕੀਅ ॥
Suraṯ vihūṇā ko▫e na kī▫a.
Without inner consciousness He has created none.5
ਜੇਹੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਤੇਹਾ ਤਿਨ ਰਾਹੁ ॥
Jehī suraṯ ṯehā ṯin rāhu.
As is the consciousness, so is their way.
ਲੇਖਾ ਇਕੋ ਆਵਹੁ ਜਾਹੁ ॥੧॥
Lekẖā iko āvhu jāhu. ||1||
He alone (call mortals) to account (and subject) to his order they come and go. ( here His Hukam and our participation is expressed)

Karma occurs as per “SURAT”, by the way why Karmas are numbered as first one or the last one. When child takes birth, it cries to breathe, that is the first Karma known to us, reaction is” oxygen” going in to keep the continuity of life. If you want more detail, going back to in pregnancy state, here is Guru Bachan
ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਪਹਰੇ ਘਰੁ ੧ ॥ Sri Rag, First Guru.
ਪਹਿਲੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਰੈਣਿ ਕੈ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਪਇਆ ਗਰਭਾਸਿ ॥ ਉਰਧ ਤਪੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਖਸਮ ਸੇਤੀ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ॥ ਖਸਮ ਸੇਤੀ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ਵਖਾਣੈ ਉਰਧ ਧਿਆਨਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗਾ ॥ ਨਾ ਮਰਜਾਦੁ ਆਇਆ ਕਲਿ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਬਾਹੁੜਿ ਜਾਸੀ ਨਾਗਾ ॥ ਜੈਸੀ ਕਲਮ ਵੁੜੀ ਹੈ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਤੈਸੀ ਜੀਅੜੇ ਪਾਸਿ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਪਹਿਲੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਪਇਆ ਗਰਭਾਸਿ ॥੧॥ In the first watch of night O my merchant friend! by Lord's order, Thou were cast into the womb. With body reversed Thou performed penance within and prayed to thy Master, O my merchant friend! Upside down Thou said prayers unto the Lord with fixed attention and affection. Thou came against manner (naked) in the dark-age (world) and again, shall depart naked. Such cargo shall be with the mortal, as God's pen has recorded on his brow.5 Nanak, in the first watch, Soul descends into the womb by Lord's will.

You still did not answer my question? you had quoted before Santh singh. He some how uses past deeds/past life deeds? what bad deed would a tree have done or an ant? - I think we should together go through each and every shabad line with word karma and its usage!

 

[Sikh80]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Respected pk70 ji,

Guru Nanak ji has never talked about the First Karma and its origin that would,obviously, decide our so called 'pre-ordained destiny'.

If I am a man right now , it is on account of what I did last time. Like wise if we trace back and go into regression we would find ourself as the person in our first 'jun' , whatever, it was. In the First 'Joonie' I was sent without Karmas.

The question posed is ,at that time I had no -preordained destiny and I did as He wanted me. This is that Guru ji did not like to explain and kept aside this theory and proceeded well. This is very well accepted by religious scholars. I am sorry if my english is a problem and I cannot do much about it.

I shall post you that line .May be it shall be more helpful to both of us.

Without any disrespect, I check out right now.

Warm Regards.!

 

[pk70]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

You still did not answer my question? you had quoted before Santh singh. He some how uses past deeds/past life deeds? what bad deed would a tree have done or an ant? - I think we should together go through each and every shabad line with word karma and its usage!

I referred Jap Ji where Guru ji states all obeying HIM, also stated that due to" awareness/consciousness", trees etc cannot be compared with humans in deeds. A tree is not designed in concious to act as humans do. You are mixing apples with oranges. So, you cannot say" what a tree has done good or bad" It is invalid qquestion in context of humans. I quoted Gurbani not Sant Singh ji. Whose ever translation was availble, I posted it. My purpose was to explain you the way I understand Guru Message, Guru clearly states humans act as per their" Given Surat" If you are not satisfied with that answer, as I wrote earliar, I cannot help, please reread it.

 

[pk70]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Respected pk70 ji,

Guru Nanak ji has never talked about the First Karma and its origin that would,obviously, decide our so called 'pre-ordained destiny'.

If I am a man right now , it is on account of what I did last time. Like wise if we trace back and go into regression we would find ourself as the person in our first 'jun' , whatever, it was. In the First 'Joonie' I was sent without Karmas.

The question posed is ,at that time I had no -preordained destiny and I did as He wanted me. This is that Guru ji did not like to explain and kept aside this theory and proceeded well. This is very well accepted by religious scholars. I am sorry if my english is a problem and I cannot do much about it.

I shall post you that line .May be it shall be more helpful to both of us.

Without any disrespect, I check out right now.

Warm Regards.!

Sikh80 Ji,
From brushing aside, now you say" Guru Nanak never wrote about first Karma." What I wrote is about action one takes, what action was taken while being in womb,Guru states that, what first action baby takes when breathes first time, I stated. I don't believe any first Karma exists. Or you are talking about "previous Karma". Gurbani uses" Karm" as blessings more than deeds.( Karnee is usually used to reflect actions, specially virtuous) Read "Pir Sang mutharye"by Guru Nanak, he talks about it.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Exactly.

I think it is saying that if the Shaykh dies by the ritual described in the lines above i.e.

ਮਃ ੧ ॥
मः १ ॥
Mėhlā 1.
First Mehl:

ਸਚ ਕੀ ਕਾਤੀ ਸਚੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਾਰੁ ॥
सच की काती सचु सभु सारु ॥
Sacẖ kī kāṯī sacẖ sabẖ sār.
The knife is Truth, and its steel is totally True.

ਘਾੜਤ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਅਪਰ ਅਪਾਰ ॥
घाड़त तिस की अपर अपार ॥
Gẖāṛaṯ ṯis kī apar apār.
Its workmanship is incomparably beautiful.

ਸਬਦੇ ਸਾਣ ਰਖਾਈ ਲਾਇ ॥
सबदे साण रखाई लाइ ॥
Sabḏe sāṇ rakẖā▫ī lā▫e.
It is sharpened on the grindstone of the Shabad.

ਗੁਣ ਕੀ ਥੇਕੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
गुण की थेकै विचि समाइ ॥
Guṇ kī thekai vicẖ samā▫e.
It is placed in the scabbard of virtue.


Then this form of ritualistic killing is fine. This does literally mean that the Sheik should be ritually killed but he should metaphorically kill greed in this way. So yes this is a condemnation of Riual Killing.

I think that Kuttha should have been translated as Ritually killed, rather than killed.

Am I making sense?

Randip ji

The rest of the shabad,

ਤਿਸ ਦਾ ਕੁਠਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੇਖੁ ॥
this dhaa kuthaa hovai saekh ||
If the Shaykh is killed with that,


ਲੋਹੂ ਲਬੁ ਨਿਕਥਾ ਵੇਖੁ ॥
lohoo lab nikathhaa vaekh ||
then the blood of greed will spill out.
ਹੋਇ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਲਗੈ ਹਕਿ ਜਾਇ ॥
hoe halaal lagai hak jaae ||
One who is slaughtered in this ritualistic way, will be attached to the Lord.


ਨਾਨਕ ਦਰਿ ਦੀਦਾਰਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੨॥
naanak dhar dheedhaar samaae ||2||
O Nanak, at the Lord's door, he is absorbed into His Blessed Vision. ||2||

and -- and what is that? A saloka?

ਮਃ ੧ ॥
ma 1 ||
First Mehl:

ਕਮਰਿ ਕਟਾਰਾ ਬੰਕੁੜਾ ਬੰਕੇ ਕਾ ਅਸਵਾਰੁ ॥
kamar kattaaraa bankurraa bankae kaa asavaar ||
A beautiful dagger hangs by your waist, and you ride such a beautiful horse.


ਗਰਬੁ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਮਤੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਆਵੈ ਭਾਰੁ ॥੩॥
garab n keejai naanakaa math sir aavai bhaar ||3||
But don't be too proud; O Nanak, you may fall head first to the ground. ||3||

Nanak is saying to the Shaykh-- Your dagger is beautiful, but there is a knife that is more beautiful. Your horse is beautiful, but Don't loose your balance! The shabad peaks to a Shaykh and its words are not only for a Shaykh.

 

[ax0547]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Sikh80 Ji,
From brushing aside, now you say" Guru Nanak never wrote about first Karma." What I wrote is about action one takes, what action was taken while being in womb,Guru states that, what first action baby takes when breathes first time, I stated. I don't believe any first Karma exists. Or you are talking about "previous Karma". Gurbani uses" Karm" as blessings more than deeds.( Karnee is usually used to reflect actions, specially virtuous) Read "Pir Sang mutharye"by Guru Nanak, he talks about it.

i agree with you here that Karma not past life actions but this life deeds and so we don't get life according to previous bad/good karam as it is relative to that life. So do you agree that Sikhi does not accept the hindu karmic theory of past actions to this life? I think it will be good if we start looking at each shabad! then we will have to move to reincarnation thread - let me know!

 

[pk70]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

ਮਃ ੧ ॥
ma 1 ||
First Mehl:

ਕਮਰਿ ਕਟਾਰਾ ਬੰਕੁੜਾ ਬੰਕੇ ਕਾ ਅਸਵਾਰੁ ॥
kamar kattaaraa bankurraa bankae kaa asavaar ||
A beautiful dagger hangs by your waist, and you ride such a beautiful horse.


ਗਰਬੁ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਮਤੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਆਵੈ ਭਾਰੁ ॥੩॥
garab n keejai naanakaa math sir aavai bhaar ||3||
But don't be too proud; O Nanak, you may fall head first to the ground. ||3||

Nanak is saying to the Shaykh-- Your dagger is beautiful, but there is a knife that is more beautiful. Your horse is beautiful, but Don't loose your balance! The shabad peaks to a Shaykh and its words are not only for a Shaykh. Quote aad0002 Ji)

aad Jio
I doubt it, Guru ji speaks to a Shekh here, as you have stated, message has a vast application. Guru message is hitting at "ego/pride of power and privileges" Telling them" you have force, you look beautiful but it doesnt mean there can never be a slip(down)" "dagger is sybol of force and "beautiful horse" is of previliges, all these elevate ego, the end is forgotten. I agree, words are conveying to more than one with the horse and dagger.

 

[pk70]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

i agree with you here that Karma not past life actions but this life deeds and so we don't get life according to previous bad/good karam as it is relative to that life. So do you agree that Sikhi does not accept the hindu karmic theory of past actions to this life? I think it will be good if we start looking at each shabad! then we will have to move to reincarnation thread - let me know!

Here is a Guru Shabad, look at it, it will explain what affects "today". I strongly believe Gurbani doesn't believe as prevailed Hindu thought, like" if you are low cate it is due to your previous Karma", Gurbani gives stress on "karnee" which change the whole land scape. This life is given as per His Will as stated in the Guru Shabad I quotd. That is the major difference. Guru ji states who were born into low castes, merged with the Lord due to their "ksrnee'. There are many words which are translated as people wished, leftist different way, Hindu- influenced thought different way. If totality of Guru Message is kept in mind, both sides appear wrong. Below bsides a Shabad I am adding a lot Gurbani quotes to understand Guru Messag in complete, express your view, tell me how you think about it, how you translate it different way, I shall let you know where a line is drwan by Guru ji and we should not cross it
ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਛੰਤ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ਪਿਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਮੂਠੜੀਏ ਖਬਰਿ ਨ ਪਾਈਆ ਜੀਉ ॥ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਲਿਖਿਅੜਾ ਲੇਖੁ ਪੁਰਬਿ ਕਮਾਇਆ ਜੀਉ ॥ ਲੇਖੁ ਨ ਮਿਟਈ ਪੁਰਬਿ ਕਮਾਇਆ ਕਿਆ ਜਾਣਾ ਕਿਆ ਹੋਸੀ ॥ ਗੁਣੀ ਅਚਾਰਿ ਨਹੀ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਅਵਗੁਣ ਬਹਿ ਬਹਿ ਰੋਸੀ ॥ ਧਨੁ ਜੋਬਨੁ ਆਕ ਕੀ ਛਾਇਆ ਬਿਰਧਿ ਭਏ ਦਿਨ ਪੁੰਨਿਆ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਦੋਹਾਗਣਿ ਛੂਟੀ ਝੂਠਿ ਵਿਛੁੰਨਿਆ ॥੧॥
Dhanasri 1st Guru. O beguiled bride, thy Beloved is with thee, but thou hast no knowledge of it. According to thine past deeds, the destiny is writ on thy forehead. The writ of the past deeds cannot be erased. What do I know as to what shall befall me? Thou hast not adopted the virtuous way of life, nor art thou imbued with thy Lord's love, thou shalt ever sit and bewail over thine misdeeds. Thine riches and youth are like shade of swallowort. Growing old, thine days shall come to an end. Without the Name, thou shalt be a discarded, divorced bride. Thy falsehood shall separate thee from the Lord.


ਲੇਖੁ ਨ ਮਿਟਈ ਹੇ ਸਖੀ ਜੋ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਕਰਤਾਰਿ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਰਣੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਪਗੁ ਧਾਰਿ ॥ ਕਰਤੇ ਹਥਿ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ਬੂਝਹੁ ਗੁਰ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ॥ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਫੇਰਿ ਨ ਸਕੀਐ ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੀ ਤਿਉ ਸਾਰਿ
The writ, scribed by the Creator, O my mate, can be erased not. The Creator, who Himself has created the universe, mercifully places His foot(realization)in man's mind. The glories are in the hand of the Creator. Understand thou this, reflecting on the Guru's word. The Lord's writ can be challenged not
ਤੂ ਸੁਣਿ ਕਿਰਤ ਕਰੰਮਾ ਪੁਰਬਿ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥Accept that as a result of the deeds done in the past, 1107
ਮਿਲਿ ਸੰਗਿ ਸੋਹੇ ਦੇਖਿ ਮੋਹੇ ਪੁਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਨਿ ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥੪॥੧॥ I have obtained what was predestined for me. Prays Nanak, I seek the refuge of those who meditate on their Lord Master. 1278

ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਜੀਆ ਦੇਖਿ ਸਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਲੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਪੁਰਬਿ ਕਮਾਈ ॥ ਕਰਮਹੀਣੁ ਸਚੁ ਭੀਖਿਆ ਮਾਂਗੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਮਿਲੈ ਵਡਾਈ ॥੪॥੧੧॥
Day and night, the Lord looks after and takes care of His beings and awards them pleasure and pain in accordance with their past deeds.' Unfortunate with their asks for the alms of the True Name, O Lord, bless Thou him, with this glory.
(ਆਤਮਕਜੀਵਨ ਦੀ ਦਾਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਮਿਲ ਸਕਦੀ ਹੈ ਜੋ) ਦਿਨ ਰਾਤ ਬੜੇ ਗਹੁ ਨਾਲ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਦੀਸੰਭਾਲ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਦੀ ਪੂਰਬਲੀ ਕਮਾਈ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸੁਖ ਜਾਂ ਦੁਖ (ਭੋਗਣ ਨੂੰ) ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ
ਸਾਕਤ ਕੂੜੇ ਸਚੁ ਨ ਭਾਵੈ ॥ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਬਾਧਾ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਵੈ ॥ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਲੇਖੁ ਨ ਮੇਟੈ ਕੋਈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕਰਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੫॥ (109)
The false mammon-worshipper likes not the Truth. Bound to duality he comes and goes. The scribed writ no one can erase Through the Guru is one emancipated.
ਜਿਨਿ ਸਿਸਟਿ ਸਾਜੀ ਸੋਈ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਜਨ ਕਉ ਜਿਨ ਧੁਰਿ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਲੇਖੁ ਲਿਖਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੮॥੧॥੩੨॥੩੩॥ 9129)
He who created the world knows everything about it. The Lord blends with Himself those who ever keep in view the Guru's instruction. Nanak, only those persons receive the Name on whose forehead such a writ is recorded by the primal Lord.
ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਸੁ ਕਰਮੁ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਿ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਾਗਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਹੀ ਸਬਦੈ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੨॥
I have done the deed which was pre-ordained for me. By rendering service unto the True Guru I have procured the eternal peace. Without good destiny, one finds not the Guru, Through His Name the Lord unites him in His union.
(ਪਰਇਹ ਆਪਾ-ਭਾਵ ਦੂਰ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ) ਸ੍ਰੇਸ਼ਟ ਕੰਮ ਉਹ ਮਨੁੱਖ (ਹੀ) ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਿਸ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰਪੂਰਬਲੇ ਜਨਮ ਵਿਚ ਕੀਤੇ ਕਰਮਾਂ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਆਪਾ-ਭਾਵ ਦੂਰ ਕਰਨ ਦੇ ਸੰਸਕਾਰਾਂ ਦਾ ਲੇਖਮੌਜੂਦ ਹੋਵੇ। ਉਹ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਰਨ ਪੈ ਕੇ ਸਦਾ ਆਤਮਕ ਆਨੰਦ ਮਾਣਦਾ ਹੈ। ਗੁਰੂ ਭੀਪੂਰੀ ਕਿਸਮਤ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਦਾ। (ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ ਗੁਰੂ ਮਿਲ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਗੁਰੂਆਪਣੇ) ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਮਿਲਾਪ ਵਿਚ ਮਿਲਾ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ।੨।
ਪੰਨਾ 133, ਸਤਰ 6ਕਿਰਤਿਕਰਮਕੇ ਵੀਛੁੜੇ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਮੇਲਹੁ ਰਾਮ ॥
किरति करम के वीछुड़े करि किरपा मेलहु राम ॥
Kiraṯ karam ke vīcẖẖuṛe kar kirpā melhu rām.
By the actions we have committed, we are separated from You. Please show Your Mercy, and unite us with Yourself, Lord
ਗਉੜੀ ਚੇਤੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ਅਉਖਧ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਲੁ ਮਨ ਏਕੈ ਜੇ ਕਰਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜੁ ਚਿਤੁ ਕੀਜੈ ਰੇ ॥ ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੇ ਪਾਪ ਕਰਮ ਕੇ ਕਾਟਨਹਾਰਾ ਲੀਜੈ ਰੇ ॥੧॥
Gauri Cheti 1st Guru. O man, if thou fix thy heart on the Lord, thou shalt realise that He alone is the panacea, charm and herb if every ill. Do thou, O man, attain to the Lord, the Destroyer of the evil deed of many past birth.
ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥ ਕੁੰਟ ਚਾਰਿ ਦਹ ਦਿਸਿ ਭ੍ਰਮੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਕੀ ਰੇਖ ॥ ਸੂਖ ਦੂਖ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਜੋਨਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਓ ਲੇਖ ॥੧॥
Slok. The mortal wanders about in the four quarters and the ten direction of the world bearing the marks of deeds done. Weal and woe, emancipation and transmigration, O Nanak, are in accordance with written record. (253)

ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਲੋਭਿ ਲਾਗੇ ਰਤਨ ਜਨਮੁ ਖੋਇਆ ॥ ਪੂਰਬ ਜਨਮਿ ਕਰਮ ਭੂਮਿ ਬੀਜੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਬੋਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
O man, attaching thyself to covetousness, why losest thou the gem like life of thine? Thou sowed not the seed of good actions in the earth of Thy former births. Pause.
ਹੇਬੰਦੇ! ਕਿਉਂ ਲੋਭ ਵਿਚ ਫਸ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈਂ ਤੇ ਹੀਰਾ-ਜਨਮ ਗਵਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈਂ? ਪਿਛਲੇ ਜਨਮ ਵਿਚ (ਕੀਤੇ) ਕਰਮਾਂ-ਅਨੁਸਾਰ (ਮਿਲੇ ਇਸ ਮਨੁੱਖਾ-) ਸਰੀਰ ਵਿਚ ਕਿਉਂ ਤੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾਨਾਮ-ਰੂਪ ਬੀਜ ਨਹੀਂ ਬੀਜਦਾ?।੧।ਰਹਾਉ।
ਪੂਰਬਲੋ ਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਕਰਮੁ ਨ ਮਿਟੈ ਰੀ ਘਰ ਗੇਹਣਿ ਤਾ ਚੇ ਮੋਹਿ ਜਾਪੀਅਲੇ ਰਾਮ ਚੇ ਨਾਮੰ ॥ ਬਦਤਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਲੋਚਨ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ॥੬॥੧॥
The effect of deeds committed in the past cannot be effaced, O the wife of my house, Therefore I repeat the Name of the Lord. So says Tirlochan, O my Reverend Lord.
ਹੇਮੇਰੀ ਜਿੰਦੇ! ਪਿਛਲਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਕੋਈ ਕਰਮ (ਅਵਤਾਰ-ਪੂਜਾ, ਤੀਰਥ-ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਆਦਿਕ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ)ਮਿਟਦਾ ਨਹੀਂ; ਤਾਹੀਏਂ ਮੈਂ ਤਾਂ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਹੀ ਸਿਮਰਦਾ ਹਾਂ। ਤ੍ਰਿਲੋਚਨ ਆਖਦਾਹੈ ਕਿ ਮੈਂ ਤਾਂ 'ਰਾਮ ਰਾਮ' ਹੀ ਜਪਦਾ ਹਾਂ (ਭਾਵ, ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਓਟ ਹੀ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹਾਂ ਤੇਆਪਣੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਕੀਤੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਆਏ ਦੁੱਖ ਤੋਂ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨੂੰ ਦੋਸ ਨਹੀਂ ਦੇਂਦਾ)।੬।੧
ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਿਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਬਣਿ ਆਈ ॥ ਪੂਰਬ ਕਰਮਿ ਲਿਖਤ ਧੁਰਿ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥ 743
I have cultivated affection for the saints' society, and have obtained the fruit of the Lord's writ, in accordance with my past deeds.
ਹੇਭਾਈ! ਪੂਰਬਲੇ ਜਨਮਾਂ ਦੇ ਕੀਤੇ ਕਰਮ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਧੁਰ ਦਰਗਾਹ ਤੋਂ ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੇ ਉਤੇਲਿਖਿਆ ਲੇਖ ਉੱਘੜਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦਾ ਪਿਆਰ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਨਾਲ ਬਣ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ।੨।
ਪਤਿਤ ਪਾਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੇਰੋ ਨਾਉ ॥ ਪੂਰਬਿ ਕਰਮ ਲਿਖੇ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
The filth of myriads of births is washed off. The Purifier of the sinners is Thy Name, O Lord. In accordance with the writ of my past deeds sing I the Lord's praises. Pause.
ਹੇਪ੍ਰਭੂ! ਤੇਰਾ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਕਾਰੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਪਵਿੱਤਰ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈ। ਪਰ ਤੇਰੇ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਣ ਦੀਦਾਤਿ ਉਸੇ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲਦੀ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਦੇ ਪੂਰਬਲੇ ਜਨਮ ਵਿਚ ਕੀਤੇ ਕਰਮਾਂ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ (ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀਪ੍ਰਾਪਤੀ ਉਸ

 

[Sikh80]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Pk70ji,
it is developing into an interesting discussion. I owe you about First Karma and something about theory of Karma as sikhs accept and bani states. It is immaterial even if we do not arrive at any consensus.All that matters is that we peacefully share the views.
Acx ji is doing a hard work.
Very interesting thread.

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

I think the only thing we have to be careful about is that the Sikh concept of Karma does not mirror the Hindu concept, i.e. you did something bad in your last life and therefore you are now low caste.

Our Guru's emphatically dismissed caste and saw Karma as a here and now occurrence.

Any thoughts?

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

I think the only thing we have to be careful about is that the Sikh concept of Karma does not mirror the Hindu concept, i.e. you did something bad in your last life and therefore you are now low caste.

Our Guru's emphatically dismissed caste and saw Karma as a here and now occurrence.

Any thoughts?

Randip ji :star:

Great observation. The concept that caste is a way to work out all bad karmas, and then and only then one moves to the next caste, is not a Sikh concept. We do have to be careful.