Learn Punjabi Translations And Transliterations Of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues And Controversies

[Randip Singh]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

I agree with the "poodle" part. Very funny! But that article was not so bad. What do you say?

I trust your judgement 100% Antoniaji.

Here are some more controversial words from Bani that have been mistranslated:

-Kuttha
-Halal
-Bismil

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

No need for the bow Trust? That is nice.... And thanks for the additional words to discuss because the thread was created for that.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

I trust your judgement 100% Antoniaji.

Here are some more controversial words from Bani that have been mistranslated:

-Kuttha
-Halal
-Bismil

Randip ji

Halaal The transliterations can be bothersome because there is more than one. But using the source searchgurbani.org more than one meaning in context can be found.

In the shabad below "halaal" has the the contextual meaning of slaughtered in a ritualistic way.

ਹੋਇ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਲਗੈ ਹਕਿ ਜਾਇ ॥
hoe halaal lagai hak jaae ||
One who is slaughtered in this ritualistic way, will be attached to the Lord. Ang 956, Guru Nanak.

In other words a ritualistic slaughtering of something. Which is given by the word "hoe" before "halaal (i.e., "this kind of slaughter" ). But the context of the shabad is not about meat at all but the killing off of greed. Does not appear to have anything to do with meat, but rather the slaughter is the metaphor for giving up one's greed.

ਸਚ ਕੀ ਕਾਤੀ ਸਚੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਾਰੁ ॥
sach kee kaathee sach sabh saar ||
The knife is Truth, and its steel is totally True.

ਘਾੜਤ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਅਪਰ ਅਪਾਰ ॥
ghaarrath this kee apar apaar ||
Its workmanship is incomparably beautiful.

ਸਬਦੇ ਸਾਣ ਰਖਾਈ ਲਾਇ ॥
sabadhae saan rakhaaee laae ||
It is sharpened on the grindstone of the Shabad.

ਗੁਣ ਕੀ ਥੇਕੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
gun kee thhaekai vich samaae ||
It is placed in the scabbard of virtue.

ਤਿਸ ਦਾ ਕੁਠਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੇਖੁ ॥
this dhaa kuthaa hovai saekh ||
If the Shaykh is killed with that,

ਲੋਹੂ ਲਬੁ ਨਿਕਥਾ ਵੇਖੁ ॥
lohoo lab nikathhaa vaekh ||
then the blood of greed will spill out.

ਹੋਇ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਲਗੈ ਹਕਿ ਜਾਇ ॥
hoe halaal lagai hak jaae ||
One who is slaughtered in this ritualistic way, will be attached to the Lord.

ਨਾਨਕ ਦਰਿ ਦੀਦਾਰਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੨॥
naanak dhar dheedhaar samaae ||2||
O Nanak, at the Lord's door, he is absorbed into His Blessed Vision. ||2||

However, in a number of other shabads, halaal is used to connote a moral sacrifice (as in giving up something that is wrong), and the literal meaning is changed so that something that is inherently wrong cannot be made to be good or acceptable. For example,

ਹਕੁ ਪਰਾਇਆ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਉਸੁ ਸੂਅਰ ਉਸੁ ਗਾਇ ॥
hak paraaeiaa naanakaa ous sooar ous gaae ||

To take what rightfully belongs to another, is like a Muslim eating pork, or a Hindu eating beef.

ਗੁਰੁ ਪੀਰੁ ਹਾਮਾ ਤਾ ਭਰੇ ਜਾ ਮੁਰਦਾਰੁ ਨ ਖਾਇ ॥
gur peer haamaa thaa bharae jaa muradhaar n khaae ||
Our Guru, our Spiritual Guide, stands by us, if we do not eat those carcasses.
(I understand carcasses to refer to something that is rotten in ourselves, and not to rotten animals.)

ਗਲੀ ਭਿਸਤਿ ਨ ਜਾਈਐ ਛੁਟੈ ਸਚੁ ਕਮਾਇ ॥
galee bhisath n jaaeeai shhuttai sach kamaae ||
By mere talk, people do not earn passage to Heaven. Salvation comes only from the practice of Truth.

ਮਾਰਣ ਪਾਹਿ ਹਰਾਮ ਮਹਿ ਹੋਇ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
maaran paahi haraam mehi hoe halaal n jaae ||
By adding spices to forbidden foods, they are not made acceptable.

ਨਾਨਕ ਗਲੀ ਕੂੜੀਈ ਕੂੜੋ ਪਲੈ ਪਾਇ ॥੨॥
naanak galee koorreeee koorro palai paae ||2||
O Nanak, from false talk, only falsehood is obtained. ||2||

Greed, avarice are compared to eating food forbidden to Hindus and Muslims. Adding spices to forbidden foods does not turn falsehood into truth.

Professor Surinder Singh Kohli translates "Halala" as permitted, acceptable (Dictionary of Guru Granth Sahib 1996/2003).

My understand then is that halaal in context refers to making something acceptable, or trying to make something acceptable when it may not be acceptable.

Halaal can also refer to the killing or offering of sacrifice, but not the killing of of something material but something spiritual.

ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਹਤ ਲਾਗੀ ਕਹੁ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਕਿਆ ਕੀਆ ॥੨॥
joth saroop anaahath laagee kahu halaal kiaa keeaa ||2||
The light of the soul passes into another form. So tell me, what have you killed? ||2|| Ang 1350, Sant Kabir

Each shabad containing the word "halaal" needs to be read in its totality -- it would appear -- to understand how the word halaal is being used and what it means in the context of the shabad.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Now this shabad may contain the verse that appears to speak against eating meat, but it does not. This verse may be the trigger for that understanding -- ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਅ ਜੁ ਮਾਰਹਿ ਜੋਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਕਹਤੇ ਹਹਿ ਜੁ ਹਲਾਲੁ ॥ kabeer jeea j maarehi jor kar kehathae hehi j halaal || Kabeer, they oppress living beings and kill them, and call it proper. (halaal is translated as proper.)

The shabad does not appear to have anything to do with the killing of animals, per se.)

ਸਾਂਈ ਮੁਝ ਮਹਿ ਕਿਆ ਖਤਾ ਮੁਖਹੁ ਨ ਬੋਲੈ ਪੀਰ ॥੧੯੮॥
saanee mujh mehi kiaa khathaa mukhahu n bolai peer ||198||
O Lord, what is the problem with me? You have not spoken to me with Your Mouth. ||198||

ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਅ ਜੁ ਮਾਰਹਿ ਜੋਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਕਹਤੇ ਹਹਿ ਜੁ ਹਲਾਲੁ ॥
kabeer jeea j maarehi jor kar kehathae hehi j halaal ||
Kabeer, they oppress living beings and kill them, and call it proper.


ਦਫਤਰੁ ਦਈ ਜਬ ਕਾਢਿ ਹੈ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਕਉਨੁ ਹਵਾਲੁ ॥੧੯੯॥
dhafathar dhee jab kaadt hai hoeigaa koun havaal ||199||
When the Lord calls for their account, what will their condition be? ||199||

ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋਰੁ ਕੀਆ ਸੋ ਜੁਲਮੁ ਹੈ ਲੇਇ ਜਬਾਬੁ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥
kabeer jor keeaa so julam hai laee jabaab khudhaae ||
Kabeer, it is tyranny to use force; the Lord shall call you to account.

ਦਫਤਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਨੀਕਸੈ ਮਾਰ ਮੁਹੈ ਮੁਹਿ ਖਾਇ ॥੨੦੦॥
dhafathar laekhaa neekasai maar muhai muhi khaae ||200||
When your account is called for, your face and mouth shall be beaten. ||200||

ਕਬੀਰ ਲੇਖਾ ਦੇਨਾ ਸੁਹੇਲਾ ਜਉ ਦਿਲ ਸੂਚੀ ਹੋਇ ॥
kabeer laekhaa dhaenaa suhaelaa jo dhil soochee hoe ||
Kabeer, it is easy to render your account, if your heart is pure. Ang 1375, Sant Kabir

The shabad refers to tyranny. Oppression is tyranny against living beings. Would that not include human beings who were politically oppressed (slaughtered even) in Kabir's time?

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Go back to this same shabad to think about "Kuttha."

ਸਚ ਕੀ ਕਾਤੀ ਸਚੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਾਰੁ ॥
sach kee kaathee sach sabh saar ||
The knife is Truth, and its steel is totally True.

ਘਾੜਤ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਅਪਰ ਅਪਾਰ ॥
ghaarrath this kee apar apaar ||
Its workmanship is incomparably beautiful.

ਸਬਦੇ ਸਾਣ ਰਖਾਈ ਲਾਇ ॥
sabadhae saan rakhaaee laae ||
It is sharpened on the grindstone of the Shabad.

ਗੁਣ ਕੀ ਥੇਕੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
gun kee thhaekai vich samaae ||
It is placed in the scabbard of virtue.

ਤਿਸ ਦਾ ਕੁਠਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੇਖੁ ॥
this dhaa kuthaa hovai saekh ||
If the Shaykh is killed with that,

ਲੋਹੂ ਲਬੁ ਨਿਕਥਾ ਵੇਖੁ ॥
lohoo lab nikathhaa vaekh ||
then the blood of greed will spill out.

Kuttha means killed. Kutthari means axe. But what is being killed? This set of verses gives a very powerful image. The Shaykh is killed in the shabad. Are we supposed to think of shaykh as a person of power, or as the "head" of something. Shaykh here in my understanding represents the mind which tyrannizes the soul with obsessional thoughts of evils, like greed.

So we have this analogy, lying behind the metaphor in the shabad. A shaykh is the head of something, a town or a clan. Kuttha means to kill, slaughter, possibly behead with an axe. The analogy then, Shaykh, the head, is like munn and the false self; and kuttha is to to kill or behead. Kuttha is used because its connoted meaning is so powerful. The "head," the Shaykh, munn, must be kille, cut-off, slaughtered to rid one of the problems of false ego, greed.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Bismil

Because this thread is also about problems of transliteration -- let me point out that one may not find "bismil" searching gurbani using this spelling.

An alternative transliteration spelling is bisamil and in Gurmukhi i b m i m l.
Another problem presented by the translations is that in unicode fonts the sharf position is always reversed with other letters, leading to i b m i m l being written as
bisimil -- confusing!

One may also find the word bismila written as misimil

ਮਿਸਿਮਿਲਿ ਤਾਮਸੁ ਭਰਮੁ ਕਦੂਰੀ ॥
misimil thaamas bharam kadhooree ||
So slaughter your evil nature, doubt and cruelty

The verse is clear enough on the face of it. The verse appears in the larger shabad...

ਸਖਾ ਸੈਨੁ ਪਿਆਰੁ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਜਪੁ ਜਪੋ ॥੨॥
sakhaa sain piaar preetham naam har kaa jap japo ||2||
The Name of the Lord is your Companion, Friend and Dear Beloved; chant it, and meditate on it. ||2||


ਏ ਮਨ ਮੇਰਿਆ ਤੂ ਥਿਰੁ ਰਹੁ ਚੋਟ ਨ ਖਾਵਹੀ ਰਾਮ ॥
eae man maeriaa thoo thhir rahu chott n khaavehee raam ||
O my mind, remain steady and stable, and you will not have to endure beatings.

ਏ ਮਨ ਮੇਰਿਆ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਹਜਿ ਸਮਾਵਹੀ ਰਾਮ ॥
eae man maeriaa gun gaavehi sehaj samaavehee raam ||
O my mind, singing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, you shall merge into Him with intuitive ease.


ਗੁਣ ਗਾਇ ਰਾਮ ਰਸਾਇ ਰਸੀਅਹਿ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨ ਅੰਜਨੁ ਸਾਰਹੇ ॥
gun gaae raam rasaae raseeahi gur giaan anjan saarehae ||
Singing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, be happy. Apply the ointment of spiritual wisdom to your eyes.


ਤ੍ਰੈ ਲੋਕ ਦੀਪਕੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਪੰਚ ਦੂਤ ਸੰਘਾਰਹੇ ॥
thrai lok dheepak sabadh chaanan panch dhooth sanghaarehae ||
The Word of the Shabad is the lamp which illuminates the three worlds; it slaughters the five demons.


ਭੈ ਕਾਟਿ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਤਰਹਿ ਦੁਤਰੁ ਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਕਾਰਜ ਸਾਰਏ ॥
bhai kaatt nirabho tharehi dhuthar gur miliai kaaraj saareae ||
Quieting your fears, become fearless, and you shall cross over the impassible world ocean. Meeting the Guru, your affairs shall be resolved.


ਰੂਪੁ ਰੰਗੁ ਪਿਆਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰਏ ॥੩॥
roop rang piaar har sio har aap kirapaa dhhaareae ||3||
You shall find the joy and the beauty of the Lord's Love and Affection; the Lord Himself shall shower you with His Grace. ||3||


ਏ ਮਨ ਮੇਰਿਆ ਤੂ ਕਿਆ ਲੈ ਆਇਆ ਕਿਆ ਲੈ ਜਾਇਸੀ ਰਾਮ ॥
eae man maeriaa thoo kiaa lai aaeiaa kiaa lai jaaeisee raam ||
O my mind, why did you come into the world? What will you take with you when you go?


ਏ ਮਨ ਮੇਰਿਆ ਤਾ ਛੁਟਸੀ ਜਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਇਸੀ ਰਾਮ ॥
eae man maeriaa thaa shhuttasee jaa bharam chukaaeisee raam ||
O my mind, you shall be emancipated, when you eliminate your doubts.


ਧਨੁ ਸੰਚਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਵਖਰੁ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਭਾਉ ਪਛਾਣਹੇ ॥
dhhan sanch har har naam vakhar gur sabadh bhaao pashhaanehae ||
So gather the wealth and capital of the Name of the Lord, Har, Har; through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, you shall realize its value.


v ਮੈਲੁ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਮਹਲੁ ਘਰੁ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਣਹੇ ॥
mail parehar sabadh niramal mehal ghar sach jaanehae ||
Filth shall be taken away, through the Immaculate Word of the Shabad; you shall know the Mansion of the Lord's Presence, your true home.


ਪਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਘਰਿ ਸਿਧਾਵਹਿ ਝੋਲਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਪੀ ਰਸੋ ॥
path naam paavehi ghar sidhhaavehi jhol anmrith pee raso ||
Through the Naam, you shall obtain honor, and come home. Eagerly drink in the Ambrosial Amrit.


ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਈਐ ਸਬਦਿ ਰਸੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਵਡਭਾਗਿ ਜਪੀਐ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੋ ॥੪॥
har naam dhhiaaeeai sabadh ras paaeeai vaddabhaag japeeai har jaso ||4||
Meditate on the Lord's Name, and you shall obtain the sublime essence of the Shabad; by great good fortune, chant the Praises of the Lord. ||4||


ਏ ਮਨ ਮੇਰਿਆ ਬਿਨੁ ਪਉੜੀਆ ਮੰਦਰਿ ਕਿਉ ਚੜੈ ਰਾਮ ॥
eae man maeriaa bin pourreeaa mandhar kio charrai raam ||
O my mind, without a ladder, how will you climb up to the Temple of the Lord?


ਏ ਮਨ ਮੇਰਿਆ ਬਿਨੁ ਬੇੜੀ ਪਾਰਿ ਨ ਅੰਬੜੈ ਰਾਮ ॥
eae man maeriaa bin baerree paar n anbarrai raam ||
O my mind, without a boat, you shall not reach the other shore.


ਪਾਰਿ ਸਾਜਨੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮੁ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਲੰਘਾਵਏ ॥
paar saajan apaar preetham gur sabadh surath langhaaveae ||
On that far shore is Your Beloved, Infinite Friend. Only your awareness of the Guru's Shabad will carry you across.


ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਰਲੀਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਨ ਪਛੋਤਾਵਏ ॥
mil saadhhasangath karehi raleeaa fir n pashhothaaveae ||
Join the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, and you shall enjoy ecstasy; you shall not regret or repent later on.

ਕਰਿ ਦਇਆ ਦਾਨੁ ਦਇਆਲ ਸਾਚਾ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਪਾਵਓ ॥
kar dhaeiaa dhaan dhaeiaal saachaa har naam sangath paavou ||
Be Merciful, O Merciful True Lord God: please give me the Blessing of the Lord's Name, and the Sangat, the Company of the Holy.


ਨਾਨਕੁ ਪਇਅੰਪੈ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਨੁ ਸਮਝਾਵਓ ॥੫॥੬॥
naanak paeianpai sunahu preetham gur sabadh man samajhaavou ||5||6||
Nanak prays: please hear me, O my Beloved; instruct my mind through the Word of the Guru's Shabad. ||5||6||

Ang 1113 Guru Nanak

 

[pk70]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Aad0002 ji, please allow me to add my understanding of Bhagat Kabir ji’s Slokas in this context. First of all, let’s see what is the meaning of “Halaal” in broad aspect, then it can be understood in what sense Bhagat ji has used it, I have translated the meaning given in Gurmukhi Dictionary
SGGS Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary
ਜਾਇਜ਼,(right) ਭੇਟਾ ਕਰਨ-ਜੋਗ (worth sacrificing), ਰੱਬ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਤੇ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਦੇਣ ਦੇ ਲਾਇਕ( worth sacrificing in the name of the Lord), ਧਰਮ ਅਨੁਕੂਲ( according to religious tenants) ਜ਼ਿਬਾਹ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ( the killing triggered slow death or killed slow death)ਦਰੁਸਤ( right/proper), ਕਾਨੂੰਨੀ ਤੌਰ ਤੇ ਜਾਇਜ਼( legally right- as per Muslim Shraa law)
ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਅ ਜੁ ਮਾਰਹਿ ਜੋਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਕਹਤੇ ਹਹਿ ਜੁ ਹਲਾਲੁ ॥ ਦਫਤਰੁ ਦਈ ਜਬ ਕਾਢਿ ਹੈ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਕਉਨੁ ਹਵਾਲੁ ॥੧੯੯॥
Kabir, they who kill the beings perforce and call that righteous. When the Lord would take out the account of His office, what shall their condition be?


In this Sloka Bhagat Kabir ji speaks against cruelty and assumptions taken by Muslims (or others) that the Lord is pleased if animals are killed in a cruel way while praying( in the name of Lord). Because Lord creates all so why HE will be pleased if any one is killed with cruelty in His Name. It hits hard on hypocritical assumptions people have made in the name of the Lord. In the next Sloka” JOR=force/control used while killing, is expressed as a factual cruelty and it does not please the Lord
ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋਰੁ ਕੀਆ ਸੋ ਜੁਲਮੁ ਹੈ ਲੇਇ ਜਬਾਬੁ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥ ਦਫਤਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਨੀਕਸੈ ਮਾਰ ਮੁਹੈ ਮੁਹਿ ਖਾਇ ॥੨੦੦॥
Kabir, to use force, this is tyranny and the Lord shall call the to account. When thy account is produced from the Lord's office, thou shall suffer strokes on thy face and mouth( means you will face punishment)

Kabir ji in the following Sloka explains what actually the Lord likes, in Sloka number 2001, , Bhagat ji says that it is purity of heart that pleases the Lord not this outer show off based on assumptions.
ਕਬੀਰ ਲੇਖਾ ਦੇਨਾ ਸੁਹੇਲਾ ਜਉ ਦਿਲ ਸੂਚੀ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਉਸੁ ਸਾਚੇ ਦੀਬਾਨ ਮਹਿ ਪਲਾ ਨ ਪਕਰੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੨੦੧॥
Kabir, easy it is to render an account, If there be purity within the mind. In that True court, no one shall then seize thee by the skirt( means, no body questions)

Application of these slokas fits well into the torture inflicted on humans in the name of the religion

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Here is another transliteration of bisamila. The source is srigranth.org

Note that "bismil" in this verse and misimila in the shabad above have the same Gurmukhi spelling. बिसमिलि
बिसमिलि गऊ देहु जीवाइ ॥
Bismil ga▫ū ḏeh jīvā▫e.
Bring this dead cow back to life.

The shabad is ...

ਸੁਲਤਾਨੁ ਪੂਛੈ ਸੁਨੁ ਬੇ ਨਾਮਾ ॥
सुलतानु पूछै सुनु बे नामा ॥
Sulṯān pūcẖẖai sun be nāmā.
The Sultan said, "Listen, Naam Dayv:

ਦੇਖਉ ਰਾਮ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੇ ਕਾਮਾ ॥੧॥
देखउ राम तुम्हारे कामा ॥१॥
Ḏekẖ▫a▫u rām ṯumĥāre kāmā. ||1||
let me see the actions of your Lord."||1||

ਨਾਮਾ ਸੁਲਤਾਨੇ ਬਾਧਿਲਾ ॥
नामा सुलताने बाधिला ॥
Nāmā sulṯāne bāḏẖilā.
The Sultan arrested Naam Dayv,

ਦੇਖਉ ਤੇਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਬੀਠੁਲਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
देखउ तेरा हरि बीठुला ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Ḏekẖ▫a▫u ṯerā har bīṯẖulā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
and said, "Let me see your Beloved Lord."||1||Pause||

ਬਿਸਮਿਲਿ ਗਊ ਦੇਹੁ ਜੀਵਾਇ ॥
बिसमिलि गऊ देहु जीवाइ ॥
Bismil ga▫ū ḏeh jīvā▫e.
Bring this dead cow back to life.

ਨਾਤਰੁ ਗਰਦਨਿ ਮਾਰਉ ਠਾਂਇ ॥੨॥
नातरु गरदनि मारउ ठांइ ॥२॥
Nāṯar garḏan māra▫o ṯẖāʼn▫e. ||2||
Otherwise, I shall cut off your head here and now."||2||

ਬਾਦਿਸਾਹ ਐਸੀ ਕਿਉ ਹੋਇ ॥
बादिसाह ऐसी किउ होइ ॥
Bāḏisāh aisī ki▫o ho▫e.
Naam Dayv answered, "O king, how can this happen?

ਬਿਸਮਿਲਿ ਕੀਆ ਨ ਜੀਵੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੩॥
बिसमिलि कीआ न जीवै कोइ ॥३॥
Bismil kī▫ā na jīvai ko▫e. ||3||
No one can bring the dead back to life. ||3||

ਮੇਰਾ ਕੀਆ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥
मेरा कीआ कछू न होइ ॥
Merā kī▫ā kacẖẖū na ho▫e.
I cannot do anything by my own actions.

ਕਰਿ ਹੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਹੋਇ ਹੈ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥
करि है रामु होइ है सोइ ॥४॥
Kar hai rām ho▫e hai so▫e. ||4||
Whatever the Lord does, that alone happens."||4||

ਬਾਦਿਸਾਹੁ ਚੜ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਓ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ॥
बादिसाहु चड़्हिओ अहंकारि ॥
Bāḏisāhu cẖaṛĥi▫o ahaʼnkār.
The arrogant king was enraged at this reply.

ਗਜ ਹਸਤੀ ਦੀਨੋ ਚਮਕਾਰਿ ॥੫॥
गज हसती दीनो चमकारि ॥५॥
Gaj hasṯī ḏīno cẖamkār. ||5||
He incited an elephant to attack. ||5||

ਰੁਦਨੁ ਕਰੈ ਨਾਮੇ ਕੀ ਮਾਇ ॥
रुदनु करै नामे की माइ ॥
Ruḏan karai nāme kī mā▫e.
Naam Dayv's mother began to cry,

ਛੋਡਿ ਰਾਮੁ ਕੀ ਨ ਭਜਹਿ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥੬॥
छोडि रामु की न भजहि खुदाइ ॥६॥
Cẖẖod rām kī na bẖajėh kẖuḏā▫e. ||6||
and she said, "Why don't you abandon your Lord Raam, and worship his Lord Allah?"||6||

ਨ ਹਉ ਤੇਰਾ ਪੂੰਗੜਾ ਨ ਤੂ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਇ ॥
न हउ तेरा पूंगड़ा न तू मेरी माइ ॥
Na ha▫o ṯerā pūʼngaṛā na ṯū merī mā▫e.
Naam Dayv answered, "I am not your son, and you are not my mother.

ਪਿੰਡੁ ਪੜੈ ਤਉ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਇ ॥੭॥
पिंडु पड़ै तउ हरि गुन गाइ ॥७॥
Pind paṛai ṯa▫o har gun gā▫e. ||7||
Even if my body dies, I will still sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord."||7||

ਕਰੈ ਗਜਿੰਦੁ ਸੁੰਡ ਕੀ ਚੋਟ ॥
करै गजिंदु सुंड की चोट ॥
Karai gajinḏ sund kī cẖot.
The elephant attacked him with his trunk,

ਨਾਮਾ ਉਬਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਓਟ ॥੮॥
नामा उबरै हरि की ओट ॥८॥
Nāmā ubrai har kī ot. ||8||
but Naam Dayv was saved, protected by the Lord. ||8||

The shabad is by Sant Nam Dev. It is very mystical and the story told here is a famous scene from the life of Nam Dayv.

By Guru's kirpa the cow is returned to life. The story continues with the King having a change of mind. If you don't know the whole story, look it up....

ਬਖਸੀ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੈ ਤੇਰੀ ਗਾਇ ॥੨੨॥
बखसी हिंदू मै तेरी गाइ ॥२२॥
Bakẖsī hinḏū mai ṯerī gā▫e. ||22||
Forgive me, please, O Hindu; I am just a cow before you.||22||


The story ends, It is about humility not about cows.



ਨਾਮਾ ਕਹੈ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਬਾਦਿਸਾਹ ॥
नामा कहै सुनहु बादिसाह ॥
Nāmā kahai sunhu bāḏisāh.
Naam Dayv said, "Listen, O king:


ਇਹੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਪਤੀਆ ਮੁਝੈ ਦਿਖਾਇ ॥੨੩॥
इहु किछु पतीआ मुझै दिखाइ ॥२३॥
Ih kicẖẖ paṯī▫ā mujẖai ḏikẖā▫e. ||23||
have I done this miracle? ||23||


ਇਸ ਪਤੀਆ ਕਾ ਇਹੈ ਪਰਵਾਨੁ ॥
इस पतीआ का इहै परवानु ॥
Is paṯī▫ā kā ihai parvān.
The purpose of this miracle is


ਸਾਚਿ ਸੀਲਿ ਚਾਲਹੁ ਸੁਲਿਤਾਨ ॥੨੪॥
साचि सीलि चालहु सुलितान ॥२४॥
Sācẖ sīl cẖālahu suliṯān. ||24||
that you, O king, should walk on the path of truth and humility."||24||

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Aad0002 ji, please allow me to add my understanding of Bhagat Kabir ji’s Slokas in this context. First of all, let’s see what is the meaning of “Halaal” in broad aspect, then it can be understood in what sense Bhagat ji has used it, I have translated the meaning given in Gurmukhi Dictionary
SGGS Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary
ਜਾਇਜ਼,(right) ਭੇਟਾ ਕਰਨ-ਜੋਗ (worth sacrificing), ਰੱਬ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਤੇ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਦੇਣ ਦੇ ਲਾਇਕ( worth sacrificing in the name of the Lord), ਧਰਮ ਅਨੁਕੂਲ( according to religious tenants) ਜ਼ਿਬਾਹ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ( the killing triggered slow death or killed slow death)ਦਰੁਸਤ( right/proper), ਕਾਨੂੰਨੀ ਤੌਰ ਤੇ ਜਾਇਜ਼( legally right- as per Muslim Shraa law)
ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਅ ਜੁ ਮਾਰਹਿ ਜੋਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਕਹਤੇ ਹਹਿ ਜੁ ਹਲਾਲੁ ॥ ਦਫਤਰੁ ਦਈ ਜਬ ਕਾਢਿ ਹੈ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਕਉਨੁ ਹਵਾਲੁ ॥੧੯੯॥
Kabir, they who kill the beings perforce and call that righteous. When the Lord would take out the account of His office, what shall their condition be?


In this Sloka Bhagat Kabir ji speaks against cruelty and assumptions taken by Muslims (or others) that the Lord is pleased if animals are killed in a cruel way while praying( in the name of Lord). Because Lord creates all so why HE will be pleased if any one is killed with cruelty in His Name. It hits hard on hypocritical assumptions people have made in the name of the Lord. In the next Sloka” JOR=force/control used while killing, is expressed as a factual cruelty and it does not please the Lord
ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋਰੁ ਕੀਆ ਸੋ ਜੁਲਮੁ ਹੈ ਲੇਇ ਜਬਾਬੁ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥ ਦਫਤਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਨੀਕਸੈ ਮਾਰ ਮੁਹੈ ਮੁਹਿ ਖਾਇ ॥੨੦੦॥
Kabir, to use force, this is tyranny and the Lord shall call the to account. When thy account is produced from the Lord's office, thou shall suffer strokes on thy face and mouth( means you will face punishment)

Kabir ji in the following Sloka explains what actually the Lord likes, in Sloka number 2001, , Bhagat ji says that it is purity of heart that pleases the Lord not this outer show off based on assumptions.
ਕਬੀਰ ਲੇਖਾ ਦੇਨਾ ਸੁਹੇਲਾ ਜਉ ਦਿਲ ਸੂਚੀ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਉਸੁ ਸਾਚੇ ਦੀਬਾਨ ਮਹਿ ਪਲਾ ਨ ਪਕਰੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੨੦੧॥
Kabir, easy it is to render an account, If there be purity within the mind. In that True court, no one shall then seize thee by the skirt( means, no body questions)

Application of these slokas fits well into the torture inflicted on humans in the name of the religion

Thank you pk70 ji

It is good that you add your understanding by contributing additional, and factual, information regarding the meaning of the word "halaal." The analogy does center on the idea of oppression, and is a vivid in its imagery because of that.

 

[pk70]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Kuttha means killed. Kutthari means axe. But what is being killed? This set of verses gives a very powerful image. The Shaykh is killed in the shabad. Are we supposed to think of shaykh as a person of power, or as the "head" of something. Shaykh here in my understanding represents the mind which tyrannizes the soul with obsessional thoughts of evils, like greed.

So we have this analogy, lying behind the metaphor in the shabad. A shaykh is the head of something, a town or a clan. Kuttha means to kill, slaughter, possibly behead with an axe. The analogy then, Shaykh, the head, is like munn and the false self; and kuttha is to to kill or behead. Kuttha is used because its connoted meaning is so powerful. The "head," the Shaykh, munn, must be kille, cut-off, slaughtered to rid one of the problems of false ego, greed. (quote aad0002 Ji)

“The Shaykh is killed in the shabad”

Respectfully I have to say,no, it is the greed to be killed not the Sekh
In this Shabad, metaphorically Guru ji expresses what actual” HalaaL” is which is accepted in the court of the Lord. Look at the words “Sach kee kaatee, Shabade saan” those are the weapon and sharpening tool of the weapon to do “halaal”, it is addressed to a religious Muslim leader Shekh. Guru ji says if, you( Sekh) slowly kill greed that is in you and see the blood of greed going out of you, it will be real Halaal, instead of showing off blood through Halaal ritual, Again like Kabir ji, Guru Nanak is stressing on purity of mind which is Halaal( or acceptable by the Lord ) unlike animal killing to please the Lord. Your last pick on mind is right though, there is no literal beheading, slaughtering, all is metaphorical expression
Manmohan Singh ji is very close to Guru Message, here it is
ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਕਾਤੀ ਸਚੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਾਰੁ ॥ ਘਾੜਤ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਅਪਰ ਅਪਾਰ ॥ ਸਬਦੇ ਸਾਣ ਰਖਾਈ ਲਾਇ ॥ ਗੁਣ ਕੀ ਥੇਕੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥ ਤਿਸ ਦਾ ਕੁਠਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੇਖੁ ॥ ਲੋਹੂ ਲਬੁ ਨਿਕਥਾ ਵੇਖੁ ॥ ਹੋਇ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਲਗੈ ਹਕਿ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਰਿ ਦੀਦਾਰਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੨॥
1st Guru. The scalpel is of truth and truth the pure steel. 1st make is incomparably beauteous. It is sharpened on the stone of Guru's word. It is put in the scabbard of virtue. if one is killed with that, O Sheikh, then the blood of avarice will be seen to issue forth(getting out of mind, being eliminated). He, who is slaughtered thus( who kills greed etc), gets attached to the True Lord. Nanak, he merges in the Lord's vision,

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

pk70 ji

I think you misread what I said. The Shaykh in the shabad is not the person but what the person symbolizes or represents. We are saying the same thing essentially.

My words were Shaykh here in my understanding represents the mind which tyrannizes the soul with obsessional thoughts of evils, like greed... and The "head," the Shaykh, munn, must be kille, cut-off, slaughtered to rid one of the problems of false ego, greed.

You are saying if, you( Sekh) slowly kill greed that is in you and see the blood of greed going out of you, it will be real Halaal...

One place where we may differ is on the sense of halaal as a ritual, with my understanding being narrow (halaal = approved. because of the manner of sacrifice) and yours being broader to include purity coming from the ritual. I am not sure about that. In Islam is "purity" the purpose of halaal? I do not think so, but rather appeasement of the God of Abraham. In Judaism "kosher" is for purification. and is not only related to the slaughter of animals but all sorts of things. It is my understanding halaal is a ritual of appeasement not purity.

But then again, you have also put the shabad into the context of halaal as purity of mind. And I am thinking of the mind as tormenter.

 

[pk70]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

pk70 ji

I think you misread what I said. The Shaykh in the shabad is not the person but what the person symbolizes or represents. We are saying the same thing essentially.

My words were Shaykh here in my understanding represents the mind which tyrannizes the soul with obsessional thoughts of evils, like greed... and The "head," the Shaykh, munn, must be kille, cut-off, slaughtered to rid one of the problems of false ego, greed.

You are saying if, you( Sekh) slowly kill greed that is in you and see the blood of greed going out of you, and see the blood of greed going out of you, it will be real Halaal...

One place where we may differ is on the sense of halaal as a ritual, with my understanding being narrow (halaal = approved. because of the manner of sacrifice) and yours being broader to include purity coming from the ritual. I am not sure about that. In Islam is "purity" the purpose of halaal? I do not think so, but rather appeasement of the God of Abraham. In Judaism "kosher" is for purification. and is not only related to the slaughter of animals but all sorts of things. It is my understanding halaal is a ritual of appeasement not purity.

But then again, you have also put the shabad into the context of halaal as purity of mind. And I am thinking of the mind as tormenter.

aad0002 Ji, that is why I wrote” your last pick is right, and I underlined it in your quote too because its about the application of the Guru Message. I only disagree at a point where you did not see that the Shabad is addressed to a Shekh, it is literally addressed to Shekh. If you keep reading the following Vaakas after the Vaak in which “Shekh” is mentioned, you would see it is about Halaal and Guru ji is giving new meaning to it. Muslim Shekh would do Halaal ritual in pretext of pleasing the Lord, that is what picked up by Guru ji and he inserts his idea which is actual Halaal( acceptable to the Lord) Your last pick, doubtlessly is correct in context of vast application of Guru Shabad[/FONT]

As stated by Kabir ji in context of Halaal, Guru ji is asking the Shekh to be purified( when one iliminates all negative forces becomes actual "Nirmal/pure) by killing greed etc, this is what acceptable or righteous in th court of Lord, not the Halaal Shekh claims to be acceptable, idea advocated by Kabir ji and Guru ji is the same. Only difference is that Guru ji doesnt talk about cruelty in this Shabad but he discusses Halaal in a big way as he says" then see the blood of greed goes out of you" Hope, you see not big difference in our opinion, I just tried to add what is left out.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

pk70 ji

I see what you mean. Quite right. And after a quick check on the net -- halaal does have an expanded meaning among Muslims. Halaal which means "approved" in the Islamic faith makes the mind and body pure and harmonious because of the method of slaughter. I have learned something about this.

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Go back to this same shabad to think about "Kuttha."

ਸਚ ਕੀ ਕਾਤੀ ਸਚੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਾਰੁ ॥
sach kee kaathee sach sabh saar ||
The knife is Truth, and its steel is totally True.

ਘਾੜਤ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਅਪਰ ਅਪਾਰ ॥
ghaarrath this kee apar apaar ||
Its workmanship is incomparably beautiful.

ਸਬਦੇ ਸਾਣ ਰਖਾਈ ਲਾਇ ॥
sabadhae saan rakhaaee laae ||
It is sharpened on the grindstone of the Shabad.

ਗੁਣ ਕੀ ਥੇਕੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
gun kee thhaekai vich samaae ||
It is placed in the scabbard of virtue.

ਤਿਸ ਦਾ ਕੁਠਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੇਖੁ ॥
this dhaa kuthaa hovai saekh ||
If the Shaykh is killed with that,

ਲੋਹੂ ਲਬੁ ਨਿਕਥਾ ਵੇਖੁ ॥
lohoo lab nikathhaa vaekh ||
then the blood of greed will spill out.

Kuttha means killed. Kutthari means axe. But what is being killed? This set of verses gives a very powerful image. The Shaykh is killed in the shabad. Are we supposed to think of shaykh as a person of power, or as the "head" of something. Shaykh here in my understanding represents the mind which tyrannizes the soul with obsessional thoughts of evils, like greed.

So we have this analogy, lying behind the metaphor in the shabad. A shaykh is the head of something, a town or a clan. Kuttha means to kill, slaughter, possibly behead with an axe. The analogy then, Shaykh, the head, is like munn and the false self; and kuttha is to to kill or behead. Kuttha is used because its connoted meaning is so powerful. The "head," the Shaykh, munn, must be kille, cut-off, slaughtered to rid one of the problems of false ego, greed.

Very interesting though when one reads the entire shabad:

page 956

ਮਃ ੧ ॥
मः १ ॥
Mėhlā 1.
First Mehl:

ਸਚ ਕੀ ਕਾਤੀ ਸਚੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਾਰੁ ॥
सच की काती सचु सभु सारु ॥
Sacẖ kī kāṯī sacẖ sabẖ sār.
The knife is Truth, and its steel is totally True.

ਘਾੜਤ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਅਪਰ ਅਪਾਰ ॥
घाड़त तिस की अपर अपार ॥
Gẖāṛaṯ ṯis kī apar apār.
Its workmanship is incomparably beautiful.

ਸਬਦੇ ਸਾਣ ਰਖਾਈ ਲਾਇ ॥
सबदे साण रखाई लाइ ॥
Sabḏe sāṇ rakẖā▫ī lā▫e.
It is sharpened on the grindstone of the Shabad.

ਗੁਣ ਕੀ ਥੇਕੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
गुण की थेकै विचि समाइ ॥
Guṇ kī thekai vicẖ samā▫e.
It is placed in the scabbard of virtue.

ਤਿਸ ਦਾ ਕੁਠਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੇਖੁ ॥
तिस दा कुठा होवै सेखु ॥
Ŧis ḏā kuṯẖā hovai sekẖ.
If the Shaykh is killed with that,

ਲੋਹੂ ਲਬੁ ਨਿਕਥਾ ਵੇਖੁ ॥
लोहू लबु निकथा वेखु ॥
Lohū lab nikthā vekẖ.
then the blood of greed will spill out.

ਹੋਇ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਲਗੈ ਹਕਿ ਜਾਇ ॥
होइ हलालु लगै हकि जाइ ॥
Ho▫e halāl lagai hak jā▫e.
One who is slaughtered in this ritualistic way, will be attached to the Lord.

ਨਾਨਕ ਦਰਿ ਦੀਦਾਰਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੨॥
नानक दरि दीदारि समाइ ॥२॥
Nānak ḏar ḏīḏār samā▫e. ||2||
O Nanak, at the Lord's door, he is absorbed into His Blessed Vision. ||2||

i.e. the Shabad is refering back to Kuttha as ritualistic killing rather than just "killed". A subtle difference, but one that makes for a different meaning?

What do you say?

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Naturally Randip ji, one reacts that Sikhism is against rituals. Here is how I think about this. Emphasis on Ho*e -- or in other words. This ritualistic killing referred to in the Shabad not just any ritualistic killing.

The idea is to exchange killing the false ego and ridding oneself of evils like greed and avarice rather than the wanton rituals that were the practice of the time. The ritual is by using knife of Truth which has been sharpened on the grindstone of the Shabad. In other words, all other rituals are useless. To borrow from pk70, these rituals were even oppressive. What do you think?

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Naturally Randip ji, one reacts that Sikhism is against rituals. Here is how I think about this. Emphasis on Ho*e -- or in other words. This ritualistic killing not just any ritualistic killing.

The idea is to exchange killing the false ego and ridding oneself of evil rather than the wanton rituals that were the practice of the time. The ritual is by using knife of Truth which has been sharpened on the grindstone of the Shabad. In other words, all other rituals are useless. What do you think?

Exactly.

I think it is saying that if the Shaykh dies by the ritual described in the lines above i.e.

ਮਃ ੧ ॥
मः १ ॥
Mėhlā 1.
First Mehl:

ਸਚ ਕੀ ਕਾਤੀ ਸਚੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਾਰੁ ॥
सच की काती सचु सभु सारु ॥
Sacẖ kī kāṯī sacẖ sabẖ sār.
The knife is Truth, and its steel is totally True.

ਘਾੜਤ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਅਪਰ ਅਪਾਰ ॥
घाड़त तिस की अपर अपार ॥
Gẖāṛaṯ ṯis kī apar apār.
Its workmanship is incomparably beautiful.

ਸਬਦੇ ਸਾਣ ਰਖਾਈ ਲਾਇ ॥
सबदे साण रखाई लाइ ॥
Sabḏe sāṇ rakẖā▫ī lā▫e.
It is sharpened on the grindstone of the Shabad.

ਗੁਣ ਕੀ ਥੇਕੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
गुण की थेकै विचि समाइ ॥
Guṇ kī thekai vicẖ samā▫e.
It is placed in the scabbard of virtue.


Then this form of ritualistic killing is fine. This does literally mean that the Sheik should be ritually killed but he should metaphorically kill greed in this way. So yes this is a condemnation of Riual Killing.

I think that Kuttha should have been translated as Ritually killed, rather than killed.

Am I making sense?

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Randip ji

You are making sense. You will notice that where pk70 and I disagree is about the "Shaykh." This passage is to my way of thinking using the shaykh as a metaphor (even it was a real shaykh) to make a vivid point. Have to run, but would like your indulgence to continue in more detail later.

 

[pk70]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Following is a question asked by our respected member axo547 ji, it is very interesting question
I have question, may be you can help. There is no problem with theory of tranmigration or reincarnation or mukti. What i do not understand is the role of Karma. If god is all and everything is in hukam, then who does karam - good or bad. If our reincarnation is dependent upon Karma then it makes sense as long as we are human or even may be some other higher level animal, but as a tree what karam can "we" perform or even as an microbe etc that we are judged. Please provide some insight.

To find answer for it, we must understand the Guru Message in totality. I will try my best, as per my understanding of Gurbani, to answer it, will it satisfy you or not, I don’t know.

Karma are actions taken by individuals under the effect of virtuous or selfish behavior. Every action triggers reaction. His Hukam is not individual; it’s like law applicable to the total existence known or unknown to us, to understand it, look at the laws of nature. Gurmukh is supposed to understand His Hukam and to act virtuously because Guru enables him/her to understand that Hukam. All this Maya show becomes insignificant for him(her); his only enjoyment is virtuous path. Now let’s take your question directly. “If god is all and everything is in hukam, then who does karam - good or bad.”
Gurbani says ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਘਰੁ ੪ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1 gẖar 4.
Sri Rag, First Guru.
ਏਕਾ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਜੇਤੇ ਹੈ ਜੀਅ ॥
Ėkā suraṯ jeṯe hai jī▫a.
There is the same inner conscious-ness amongst all the beings.
ਸੁਰਤਿ ਵਿਹੂਣਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਕੀਅ ॥
Suraṯ vihūṇā ko▫e na kī▫a.
Without inner consciousness He has created none.5
ਜੇਹੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਤੇਹਾ ਤਿਨ ਰਾਹੁ ॥
Jehī suraṯ ṯehā ṯin rāhu.
As is the consciousness, so is their way.
ਲੇਖਾ ਇਕੋ ਆਵਹੁ ਜਾਹੁ ॥੧॥
Lekẖā iko āvhu jāhu. ||1||
He alone (call mortals) to account (and subject) to his order they come and go. ( here His Hukam and our participation is expressed)

He arms all with this awareness / consciousness/power of taking decision and, according to that, the show is played. There is a separation from the all pervading Soul (Lord) because of their having separate existence though His manifestation is present in all, that separation can only be ended if beings do efforts to unite with that Super Soul also known as Lord. Here lies your question, which is answered by Guru Nanak in the above Guru Vaak as per given “SURAT”, actions occur. So there are those who are into good deeds and there are some who do bad deeds, Gurbani accepts it as His Ordinance because this is the way they are blessed with the awareness and are set in a situation. Like some do good deeds just to impress others, Gurbani rejects that by labeling it as a display of” I-ness” because it is not an effort to end separation. If one wants to unite with Him then why to impress others, please others etc. Here given consciousness is abused by that particular being. All are given consciousness to make choices. In an environment, it gets sculptured, if it is sculptured in a good way, credit goes to Him, if in a bad way, still credit goes to Him because there is nothing without Him “ਜੇਤਾ ਕੀਤਾਤੇਤਾ ਨਾਉ॥
Jeṯā kīṯā ṯeṯā nā▫o.
The created universe( all your cration) is the manifestation of Your Name.
ਮਃ 1 )
That is why Second Mehal says “Servant (we) should not question the boss (Lord)”, when we do not do our duty to be worthy of Him, what right we have left to question Him or His Ordinance.”
Now coming to the point “how a tree can perform good or bad deeds or to be worthy of Him?” Answer is very simple. Except human beings, the rest is obeying His Ordinance, every thing is in His” BHao(fear/Order), every thing is obeying(ਗਾਵਹਿ ਤੁਹਨੋ ਪਉਣੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਬੈਸੰਤਰੁ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਾਜਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਦੁਆਰੇ ॥
The wind, the water and fire sing Thee and the Righteous Justice sings Thine praises at Thy door = are obeying or are in alignment with your Ordinance)
These (trees etc) are not comparable with those beings (humans) who are armed with consciousness and awareness, literally there is difference due to humans being known as superior species) Individual existence is itself a freedom of choice, choice is given, some take and some ignore; who take right choices are known as blessed ones and who don’t are known as self-willed; however, they all fall in His Ordinance. Regardless what way the being acts, His Hukam prevails. Submitting to HIM while obeying or ignoring Him in defiance or due to self-willed inspiration, it doesn’t matter, still His Hukam prevails. Guru stresses that due to this awareness or consciousness, some play games but they areplaying a fool’s show bcause they are not aware of His infinite power.
ਕਾਹੇ ਜੀਅ ਕਰਹਿ ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ॥
Kāhe jī▫a karahi cẖaṯurā▫ī.
O mortals! why dost thou practise cleverness?

ਲੇਵੈ ਦੇਵੈ ਢਿਲ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Levai ḏevai dẖil na pā▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
In taking back and giving God makes no delay. Pause.

So, first we must understand what is His Ordinance, what is the purpose of our being here, why we are separated and how can we reunited with Him. We do not understand ourselves by being totally involved in Maya show, how can we understand Him or His Hukam? Please read on
ਕਰਣੀ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਘਟੇ ਘਟਿ ॥੩॥
Karṇī bājẖahu gẖate gẖat. ||3||
Sans meritorious actions, it is awfully deficient.
ਪ੍ਰਣਵਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੈਸਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
Paraṇvaṯ Nānak gi▫ānī kaisā ho▫e.
Supplicates Nanak, of what kind is the man of Divine knowledge?
( means in what way a person should be knowledgeable, answer follows in the next Guru Vaak))
ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਬੂਝੈ ਸੋਇ ॥
Āp pacẖẖāṇai būjẖai so▫e.
He who recognises his ownself comprehends Him.
Again to know oneself, to figure out why we are here, why being part of HIM we still do not realize Him, what are hindrances in that pursuit, one should ponder on because His complex way of running the world is inexpressible(Japji)

These are my humble views based on my limited knowledge as I believe SGGS Ji is a treasure of vast knowledge and persons like me are not able to grasp it completely.[/FONT]

 

[Sikh80]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Dear pk70 ji,

It is a nice write up. Coming to the root of Karma, kindly answer

1.From where did we get the first Karma?
2.Does Gurbani has an answer to the above? I would be interested in the Bani of Gurus and not Bhagats. However, if you find no answer you may kindly quote from Bhagats Bani.

Kindly quote the 'Tuks'.
I shall be very grateful.


However, right now I take your leave .It is 4th November here.

Good Night Sir,.

 

[pk70]

Re: Translations and Transliterations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Issues and Controvers

Dear pk70 ji,

It is a nice write up. Coming to the root of Karma, kindly answer

1.From where did we get the first Karma?
2.Does Gurbani has an answer to the above? I would be interested in the Bani of Gurus and not Bhagats. However, if you find no answer you may kindly quote from Bhagats Bani.

Kindly quote the 'Tuks'.
I shall be very grateful.


However, right now I take your leave .It is 4th November here.
Sikh80 Jio
First of all, I must make clear to you that Bani by Bhagatas Ji is also Gurbani, when some one asks that he/she is interested only in answer given through Bani written by Guru Sahibaan only, I really feel sorry because I feel, what does it matter? There is nothing in SGGS Ji which is not in alignment with Message of Guru Nanak.

Coming back to your question, it is already answered in my post in answer to ax0547 Ji’s question. Well, may be in a hurry you missed it. Here it is
ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਘਰੁ ੪ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1 gẖar 4.
Sri Rag, First Guru.
ਏਕਾ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਜੇਤੇ ਹੈ ਜੀਅ ॥
Ėkā suraṯ jeṯe hai jī▫a.
There is the same inner conscious-ness amongst all the beings.
ਸੁਰਤਿ ਵਿਹੂਣਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਕੀਅ ॥
Suraṯ vihūṇā ko▫e na kī▫a.
Without inner consciousness He has created none.5
ਜੇਹੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਤੇਹਾ ਤਿਨ ਰਾਹੁ ॥
Jehī suraṯ ṯehā ṯin rāhu.
As is the consciousness, so is their way.
ਲੇਖਾ ਇਕੋ ਆਵਹੁ ਜਾਹੁ ॥੧॥
Lekẖā iko āvhu jāhu. ||1||
He alone (call mortals) to account (and subject) to his order they come and go. ( here His Hukam and our participation is expressed)

Karma occurs as per “SURAT”, by the way why Karmas are numbered as first one or the last one. When child takes birth, it cries to breathe, that is the first Karma known to us, reaction is” oxygen” going in to keep the continuity of life. If you want more detail, going back to in pregnancy state, here is Guru Bachan
ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਪਹਰੇ ਘਰੁ ੧ ॥ Sri Rag, First Guru.
ਪਹਿਲੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਰੈਣਿ ਕੈ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਪਇਆ ਗਰਭਾਸਿ ॥ ਉਰਧ ਤਪੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਖਸਮ ਸੇਤੀ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ॥ ਖਸਮ ਸੇਤੀ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ਵਖਾਣੈ ਉਰਧ ਧਿਆਨਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗਾ ॥ ਨਾ ਮਰਜਾਦੁ ਆਇਆ ਕਲਿ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਬਾਹੁੜਿ ਜਾਸੀ ਨਾਗਾ ॥ ਜੈਸੀ ਕਲਮ ਵੁੜੀ ਹੈ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਤੈਸੀ ਜੀਅੜੇ ਪਾਸਿ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਪਹਿਲੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਪਇਆ ਗਰਭਾਸਿ ॥੧॥ In the first watch of night O my merchant friend! by Lord's order, Thou were cast into the womb. With body reversed Thou performed penance within and prayed to thy Master, O my merchant friend! Upside down Thou said prayers unto the Lord with fixed attention and affection. Thou came against manner (naked) in the dark-age (world) and again, shall depart naked. Such cargo shall be with the mortal, as God's pen has recorded on his brow.5 Nanak, in the first watch, Soul descends into the womb by Lord's will.