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What Is The Role Of Sants In The Khalsa Panth?

Apr 27, 2008
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Sao Paulo, Brazil
Re: Truth about Canadian Singh Sabha and Singh Sabha International

I have been in touch with Hardev Singh Shergill for a long time and he's an editor trying to keep Sikh Bulletin alive. Sikh Review was unavailable for a long time and now is back. Hardev ji never preached violence he only wanted to fight corruption in the SGPC. Kala Afghana was in danger many times and couldn't give speeches in USA or Canada. Where is freedom in contemporary Sikh groups? Let's understand Sikh world isn't India/Punjab but encompass the whole mankind.
 
Apr 27, 2008
25
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73
Sao Paulo, Brazil
Re: Who is a True Sant?

I want to add if I lived in USA/Canada I'd probably be a member of Singh Sabha Movement that is trying to bring true Sikhi - and not the contrary - to our con temporary world. Of course they have to defy petrified and corrupt institutions. Akal Takhat should be immaculate as a divine institution but human beings fail most of time. I'm openly pro reform movements inside Sikh Panth but don't agree with a sect, 3HO, which bashed Kamalla Kaur and many other former members who denounced their brain washing
methods.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
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WHY so much pre0ccupation with "SANT"...?
Gurbani also uses the words SAADH..GURMUKH..GUR..GURU..SATGUR.... etc hundreds of times...

Most of the FAKES ( who were initially SANTS...have moved away from the OVER CROWDED "SANT SAMAAJ" ( Oh yes they have a TRADE UNION Called sant Samaaj to take care of themselves and have Pardhaans and Skattars Treasurers just like any trade union)...have MOVED ON to the "less crowded" fileds of SATGURU Jagjit Singh...GURU Gurinder Singh..etc etc...
Those still stuck in the "SANT" section are on the way towards...SATGUR..GURU...as the Namdahrees did after a century or so..and the radhasoamis did after a few decades....give the Present day "SANTS" (with deras named Nnaksar/parmeshar dwar/etc etc) a few decades....or a century..and they will become those "Advanced Sants:....
ONE SANT for ALL TIME...- GURU GRANTH SAHIB ONLY...... Sarab kala Bharpoor...Sampooran..all Complete...SANT-SIPAHI !!! This SANT SIPAHI is all the Khalsa panth needs !! Churn GURBANI and you get MAKHANI...churn water..and you get WATER !! Remember Kabir....

Gyani jarnail Singh
 

pk70

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Feb 25, 2008
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(quote)
Churn GURBANI and you get MAKHANI...churn water..and you get WATER !! Remember Kabir....

Gyani Jarnail Singh ji,

It is beautiful, so right in context of "Santmenia"
 

Admin

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Jun 1, 2004
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Admin Note: To avoid confusion, two separate topics on Sants in different forums have been merged. Kindly be informed.
 
Jul 30, 2004
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Gurfateh
Sant Nirankaris are the outshoots of an idealogy like that of prsent days missioaries.
Radhswamis,acha Sauda etc from Nirmalas.Namdharis from Nihungs.

Soon a new brand of Gurudom will be there Das has heard a person claiming that Veer Bhupinder Singh is his Guru(Drkhalsa were present then).Maan Singh Nirankari Ji also wrote an article in spokesman,telling that Wahiguru means the human Guru and not the God.

So this challenge of human Gurudom is not from Sants.Das is aware that once a lady follower of ASutos came to Gurudwara in north Delhi,She preached this thing to people over there that a human Guru like Nanak is needed to open the Tenth gate(Dasam Dwar).She opposed das's eating the meat.She touchefd her Trikuti for Dasam Dwar(which is wrong place).

Das told her that let her bring Mr Asutosh and we with Guru in Five Beloved once will open his Tenth Gate.
 
Apr 27, 2008
25
0
73
Sao Paulo, Brazil
Dear Members,

I'm realizing all threads and respective answers aim to discuss Sikhee in its own realm without any effort to make it plain for non-Sikhs from other cultural background which corresponds to almost 100% of mankind. I do believe Gurbani has the power to change lives and not only be a matter of discussions within any forum. First and foremost bravery in our age corresponds to be a skilled devote able to show people why Gurus' heritage are vital to enhance our life in all aspects. No weapons are necessary, only coherent testimony. For this reason kirpan could be very small, a pin in some cases. Of course I'm talking about places,cities and countries other than Punjab. It's a myth to think AKJ garments, no matter how they're beautiful, could be our daily clothes.

BK
 
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
88
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Gurfateh
Dear Members,

I'm realizing all threads and respective answers aim to discuss Sikhee in its own realm without any effort to make it plain for non-Sikhs from other cultural background which corresponds to almost 100% of mankind. I do believe Gurbani has the power to change lives and not only be a matter of discussions within any forum. First and foremost bravery in our age corresponds to be a skilled devote able to show people why Gurus' heritage are vital to enhance our life in all aspects. No weapons are necessary, only coherent testimony. For this reason kirpan could be very small, a pin in some cases. Of course I'm talking about places,cities and countries other than Punjab. It's a myth to think AKJ garments, no matter how they're beautiful, could be our daily clothes.

BK

Respected Sister,

Das does agrees to you comments.

Das is batised from Budhadal along with two more members of SPN and hope that more will join us.

In there at any point of time it is OK to remove any 5 Kakars(we consider Blue Keski as a Kakar).So in Samagams of budhadals,das wears Bana(which yourself are saying is dress of AKJ,while thier founder Singh Sahib Bhai Randheer Singh Ji got inspire to be dress up like us and keep Beebeck(will be explained below) and Nihungs also gave him respect for being from our linage).But unlike AKJ brethern Das sometime wears only one langot(a kind pantees,used in wresting).While he swims ,he also wears swining costume(with a head geard above blue Keski).

In us we have Five kuerhits which are to be safe guraded against.
1.Not to commit adultary ie to sleep with married lady with other person or prostitute.
2.Not to use Tobbaco at all and not be be addicted to any drug or alchohal.
3.Not to eat Halal meat.
4.Not to shave any body part.
5.Not to colour any hairs.

Outside this bebeick Rahit(more stricter code of conduct) is there in us also which is deto with AKJ but there are there option.
1.Not to keep beebeck at all.
2.Keep as much beeebeck as you could keep(as situation of evil era of Kaliyua Permits)
3.Keep the full Beebeck as it is done with AKJ.

Sprituality has nothing to do with beebeck but it is there to conserve our traditons an culture(nothing to do with Punjabis but with Sikhs as we have Beebeckis in Bihar and Deccan also).

Lastly as yourself say that when das went into Air Flight,he also kept a small kirpan in thread of his neck.

But after alighitng big Kirpan was worn.In India Kirpan is OK with some size in domestic flights while not OK in international flights the world over after 9/11.

But still when we talk of having kirpan in the size of pin,we need to understand that Kirpan is there to defend the weak.If we do not know its use then it is useless even if it is of 3 feets.So he should know how to use it and we should have the motivation to make use of it at appropirate time.

But still when we say up to the size of pin,there has been the tradition of martial arts of Muslims and Brahmins called Bankait and Bannaut respectivly and is dying.In Brahmins traditon a small ring was tied to to the Janeu and its sudden bullet like swing was known to give harm to the opponent(das himself is a marital artist with brown black belt in Karatedo and Tai Kuan do).So if we need to keep the pin size Kirpan,we either coudl develop our own martial art(like Jews ahve developed Krav Maga) or could learn the use of pin from Muslims and Brahmins.

Yet das is apprihensive that after making kirpan of a pin size,tommorow some can tell us to have smaller kes.As Kala Afghan Sahib also talks of Gyan Kharag.And one of his suppertor,who is also our member of SPN and runs an online magzine from US,also calls hair keeping Sikhs as orthodox.

In an interviews with Mr G.S.Lamba Maan Singh Nirankari hastold that some of our Gurus have also undergone shaving of Mundan.

Another referance givne here is from old text of Sikhs(das has forgottan the name but could be found from www.amritworld.com 's subject of Sahijdhari.In that we are told that Sikhs from Brahmins and Khatri side(of Delhi) refused to belive that Tenth Master has stopped the Bhadani kriya(shaving the sons's head on fathers death).

Case was sent to local court and Guru sent message against the Khatris and Brahmins.

As per Anti hair Guru Granth Sahib Purists,this may mean that only after Tenth Master,did Sikhs start to keep hairs.

As after his going back to Sachkhand,Guruship is with Guru Granth Sahib,and keeping of hair as code is not in there.Das was givne a qoute by such fellow at some other forum.And what das replied is also givne.(Das did discuss this matter with missioary Amarjeet Singh Ji of Delhi).


ਕਬੀਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਇਕ ਸਿਉ ਕੀਏ ਆਨ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਜਾਇ
कबीर प्रीति इक सिउ कीए आन दुबिधा जाइ ॥
Kabīr parīṯ ik si­o kī­ė ān ḏubiḏẖā jā­ė.
Kabeer, when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart.

ਭਾਵੈ ਲਾਂਬੇ ਕੇਸ ਕਰੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ ॥੨੫॥
भावै लांबे केस करु भावै घररि मुडाइ ॥२५॥
Bẖāvai lāʼnbė kės kar bẖāvai gẖarar mudā­ė. ||25||
You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald. ||25||
(ang 1365)


Das replied.

ਪੰਨਾ 918, ਸਤਰ 5
ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਉਪਿ ਗੁਰ ਕਉ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਮੰਨਿਐ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
तनु मनु धनु सभु सउपि गुर कउ हुकमि मंनिऐ पाईऐ ॥
Ŧan man ḏẖan sabẖ sa­up gur ka­o hukam mani­ai pā­ī­ai.
Surrender body, mind, wealth, and everything to the Guru; obey the Order of His Will, and you will find Him.
ਮਃ 3 - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

So as Guru has body with 5 ks and our form and body should be of Guru so as that mark we wear 5ks. Form of Panth Guru of Panj Piare we have been givne 5 Ks as they also have been wearing it since 1699 AD.

In our dressing we have to follow the Guru Panth. Guru Granth Sahib purists have no answer to this as dress of Human has to copied by Human devotees who ahve been given the status of Guru Roop Sadh Sangat.There are good lots of contradiciton with Bani of Guru Granth Sahib Ji and present day Sikh life style.We have to understand the meaning of Bani in that context and our life style in the prsent context.Das will open a bani onto Sant Fareed Ji,which could be followed in some context and not universally and Guru Mahraj sometime put thier comments within the Bhagat Bani or Tenth master clarified it later.Akal Bless.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

sunsingh

SPNer
Jun 4, 2008
52
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"Not only is the founder of Singh Sabha International all about protecting the innocent public, because he was once harmed by a fake baba, but the people who support the organization and do seva for that organization, in many cases were themselves harmed by fake babas. The video is a Nanaksar produced video. SSI - Canadia has put it on the site to WARN people. "

SSI Canada is also doing nindya of true sants in this video. As I've stated earlier, there is a difference between warning of fake sants and doing nindya of true sants. It seems quite clear to me that it is more than merely protecting the public from pakhandees, but an attempt to attack the teachings of the individual shown at the start of the video by portraying them as dehdhari pakhandees. You have not shown an iota of evidence that SSI Canada does not believe this. It's crystal clear what they are trying to do.


It seems strange that the word sant, which is used numerous times in Gurbani, causes such a preoccupation with some people. To the extent that they deny the existence of true sants, selectively qoute Gurbani while ignoring the rest, and accuse people who believe they exist (as Gurbani teaches) of being 'sant followers' rather than followers of the Guru. Some also resort to pulling up instances of fake sants to disprove the existence of real sants, meanwhile ignoring the fact that counterfeit money only exists to copy real money, cubix zirconia only exists to copy diamonds.
 

spnadmin

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Jun 17, 2004
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Sunsingh ji

The only thing left for a forum leader to do is ask that SSI and SSI -Canada respond to your claim. What exactly would you like someone to explain that would convince you that they are not doing nindhya?
 

spnadmin

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Re: Who is a True Sant?

Admin Note:

Dear Sunsingh Ji,

Thread title has been generalised to avoid sect bashing... please get your information right before starting such a thread against active sikh organisations. This is a friendly warning...

To reinterate aad0002 Ji point, SPN apologies for any embarrassment members of Singh Sabha International that the thread may cause you.

Gurfateh

SPN Administration


Also, this is Aman ji's friendly warning -- you are in violation of a forum rule.
 
Jul 30, 2004
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Gurfateh

Bhai Sun Singh Ji,

Why we should be afraid of SSI Canada? Are you sure that Sants etc. have not done any harm to Panth?

They have made mockery of Gurmat.Sants along with a some jatha has made a life of an Amritdhari Sikh more difficult then that of a Brahmin.

The ritaul they preach and which are not as per Gurmat have made both poor and educated guys go away from thier brand of Gurmat.

Reason for one time popular sanatan Sikhs of UK(more a reactionary) or present time radicals like Kala Afghana or SSI Canada has to be put on ritualism preached by Sants and some jathas and on top of it preaching it in the way a fundamentalist does.

so acts of Sants etc them selves are making dis enchanted Sikhs move for non belivers say leftists in the guise of people like Kala Afghana Ji.Better is to preach people love for God and service of humnity then defending Sants etc. and thier often un sikh acts.you yourself could attain sant hood after following Gurbani.

Das has no disrepect for Sants but to have thier life style or to follow what thier preach,we all should build up our own monestry or Dera.

Often das finds patit(who have cut thier hairs) punjabi boys telling das to not to eat meat ,while being Amritdhari or do not tie the beard etc.Such things they have found themselve difficult to keep,so instead of getting themselve batisied they have cut thier hairs.thanks to Sants.

Maryada or code of Sants is OK for them but not for general public.Sorry for not very frinedly words but to counter SSI Canada and thier onslught and interospection is needed within the Sants.
 
Jul 30, 2004
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88
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Gurfateh

Das here also wants to say that Catholics not only defeated protestants but also made more converts only due to reformed groups like Jesuits.So our protestants could be curbed only if Sants get reformed.
 

sunsingh

SPNer
Jun 4, 2008
52
3
Sants have not done harm to the panth. In fact, sants such as Baba Attar Singh of Mastauna, have brought many into the fold of Sikhi. His student, Baba Teja Singh, is actually the reason that Sikhs were not deported from BC a long time ago. It is through his court battles that our Gurdwaras around the world have the right to fly the nishaan sahib. He has also defended many other rights. It was with the vision of Baba Attar Singh, that the Baru Sahib branch of academies were opened up to bring Sikhi back. They have done immense seva. I've already stated earlier on in the thread, when I refer to sants, I mean those who have reached the avastha to actually be sants, not referring to the outside label.

Moreover, Guru Granth Sahib ji tells us to learn about Gurmat from sants. I'm not sure what sants you are referring to when you mention difficult and complex rituals that lead people away from sikhi. Every teaching I have heard from sants has actually been pretty straightforward, and I have had the opportunity to listen to a fair bit of katha from various sants. Perhaps the rituals that are difficult and complex come from the asants who merely wear the outer garb?
 

pk70

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Feb 25, 2008
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sunsingh ji

With all due respect to you and your revered Sants, due to shameless display of a lot of Sants and Babas in the past, generally Sikh sangat has grown reservations about Babas and Sants. When these people are targeted to expose, those who are good, are also affected. You have been claiming that such and such is slandering your revered Sants but never cared how were they slandered incorrectly. The video shows them in prospective of their style, like having sun glasses to cover eyes even when they are not required. Their picture in the presence of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Thy ere are some arrows for the viewers to pay attention what is wrong. Can you question their shown arrows with proof? Most of your own article stands against so called Sants. So please prove how they pointed at your revered Sant inappropriately.
 

sunsingh

SPNer
Jun 4, 2008
52
3
With all due respect to you and your revered Sants, due to shameless display of a lot of Sants and Babas in the past, generally Sikh sangat has grown reservations about Babas and Sants. When these people are targeted to expose, those who are good, are also affected. You have been claiming that such and such is slandering your revered Sants but never cared how were they slandered incorrectly. The video shows them in prospective of their style, like having sun glasses to cover eyes even when they are not required. Their picture in the presence of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Thy ere are some arrows for the viewers to pay attention what is wrong. Can you question their shown arrows with proof? Most of your own article stands against so called Sants. So please prove how they pointed at your revered Sant inappropriately.

LOL, wearing sunglasses in conditions of low light is anti-gurmat right?

It's clearly showing nindya, anyone can see it. Any rational minded person with shardha in Gurbani can see it. There's no point in me responding any more to this discussion, which is going in circles with you sant ke nindaks unable to defend the video as not doing any nindya.

btw, Sant Jarnail Singh ji's beliefs were the exact same as the other Taksaali sants shown in the video, I've noticed his picture is not shown. It's not politically viable, right? :D Would automatically destroy the video maker's case.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
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Jun 17, 2004
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Jios all,

I am somewhat at a loss -- because I was not raised from childhood as a Sikh. Please someone explain to me why it is so difficult to have a discussion, a heated discussion, a lively discussion, an exchange of views, a debate, without used the word "nindya?" So a person disagrees, crosses an invisible line, and he or she is a slanderer? Frankly, I don't get it.

What is it with this nindya fixation? is this the mark of a Gurmukh?

There are many shabads where Guruji speaks against slander, especially slander against the Sants. These comments are directed to the reader or to a congregation as a invocation to reflect as individuals and as a congregation on how we stand in relation to divine truth, and in relation to dharma. These shabads are not like shooting a rocket across the bow of a ship and saying OK folks, "It is OK to call one another a slanderer in My Name." And if I am getting this wrong, then please tell me before I take the fact that God is nirbhao and nirvair too seriously.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
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The word "NINDIYA" is used too loosely...Its an act of self defence..self deception...
If we read Bhagat bani...one cna see Bhagat Kabir Ji uses such STRONG LANGUAGE ( if needed) to make a point.
Reda Guru Nanak Jis shabads....He CONDEMNS the JAINS... who shave their heads Bald..rub swah ( ashes) ..or pull out all hairs by their roots..the YOGIS who keep LONG HAIR but never wash them and keep it tied in knots filled with dirt...and the Followers of a weird religion who pass motion and then use a stick to "search it" and SNIFF the vapours as a RELIGIOUS DUTY ???......and such. The Gurbani is NOT about "INDIVIDUALS"....its about their ACTIONS which are WRONG..and DONT lead to Gurmukhta..Merger with Waheguru. Guru Ji calls those who go to the Forests, live naked, and eat Kand-Mool (Roots and fruits etc - VEGETARIAN DIET)...and those that STAY BACK..but FAST and go hungry as FOOLS..MOORAKH. Strong words..MOORAKH !!! Is that doing NINDIYA ??
Guru nanak addressed the KINGS and RULERS as Rajeh SHHEHN...and MUkaddam KUTTEH _ DOGS !! Very strong WORDS..dont you think ??
Any one of US dare to call the KING a KUTTAH ?? Just try and do that to even a beggar/Bum/Drug Addict good for nothing... and see what happens ?? IS that NINDIYA ??
Then Why does Bhagat Ji write in a Shabad..NINDO LOGO MUJH KO NINDO..Ninda mujhko kharee PIYAREE ..I LOVE people doing NINDA of me ??..because doing Nindiya is like a Mother washing her babies NAPPIES...with Her TONGUE instead of Water...GROSS ?? Not really..becasue doing ninda is like washign someones dirty linen for FREE...the ONLY CONDITION IS...the "NINDA" has got to be the TRUTH..the absolute TRUTH !!! So calling a THIEF a "THIEF" is NOT doing ninda..its telling the TRUTH. All those fake Sants/saadhs out there doing havoc are NOT sants/saadhs..they are Benaras Ke THUGGH ( Now Amritsar Ke Thuggh ) according to Bhagat Kabir Ji...that is the TRUTH..so its NOT NINDA.
TRUTH is telling the TRUTH takes COURAGE....it takes even MORE COURAGE to ADMIT the TRUTH..TRUTH really HURTS..BAD !!! Truth is HIGH but higher still is TRUTHFUL LIVING !!Bhagat Kabir ji went ahead and called the Pandits of Benaras..THUGGHS....Guru nanak ji went to see the greatest Thuggh of all..Sajjan Thuggh...and called him..OOJAL KEHA CHILKANNA...Your OUTSIDE clothes are so silken white..BUT your HEART is as Black as COAL !! Sajjan realised the TRUTH standing before him..and confessed and turned over a new leaf and became Sajjan !! WE LACK the conviction of our Beleifs...we can NEVER face up to a Modern "Sajjan Thuggh Bba Ji/maharaj Ji"..and call him OOJal keha chilkanna....and in order to cover up our own inadequacies/fear/self defence...we say..NO NO Ninda is Bad...dont do ninda of a Sant baba Ji..read SUKHMANI SAHIB...what great Sikhs we are....we push our own inadequacies on to Sukhmani Sahib ( and Guru Ji)...as if Sukhmani Sahib ji is a License to all FRAUD SANTS !!! Sukhmani sahib begs to be READ with VICHAAR and intellect..aakleen sahib seveah...not BLINDLY....we fail to do it justice if we read it superficially....
Cant we stop for just a second and consider....BHAGAT KABIR JI DECLARES.." I SEARCHED AND SEARCHED...and searched..for an elevated SOUL....all i found were FRAUDS... Now IF a BHAGAT like Kabir Ji is saying so forcefully that finding a GENUINE SANT is like finding a Needle in a Haystack...how can WE..ordinary humans declare each and every round turban/chola wearer "His Holiness Shri 1000000008 Sant ji maharaj Ji "..and any word agaisnt His Holiness as "Ninda" ??? IS our spiritual vastha HIGHER than Bhagat Kabir Ji ??? Logical ?? Any of these thousands of His Holineessess capable of even ONE TUK that can be compared to Bhaagt Kabir Jis Gurbani ?? WHY cant these holinesses write Books...teachings..katha...( because they are UNEDUCATED BRAHMGIANIS who learnt the art of deception to make fools out of educated UNBRAHMGIANISlike us..and if we find out the TRUTH..they threaten and blackmail us by quoting SukhMani Sahib...Beautiful ??? you bet it is...
So my two cents worth...DONT BE AFRAID to tell the truth..speak the truth...its NOT ninda...not by a long shot....see a FRAUD..tell everyone about it...Hiding it may be "a crime"..not exposing !!

Regards to all
Gyani jarnail Singh

Regards
Gyani jarnail Singh
 
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