What Is The Role Of Sants In The Khalsa Panth?

[spnadmin]

Gyani ji

Thank you for one more passionate essay in which you light the path without condemnation and without looking down on people like me.

You are correct. If someone is telling the truth, the truth cannot be slander i.e., nindya.

But here is the problem. So many debaters who use this term are 100 percent certain that they are in possession of the TRUTH -- all 24 karats of it -- and their opponents in a debate are not in possession of the Truth, and are therefore doing Nindya.

So maybe those rockets shot across the bow of a boat are really heat-seeking missles.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

btw, Sant Jarnail Singh ji's beliefs were the exact same as the other Taksaali sants shown in the video, I've noticed his picture is not shown. It's not politically viable, right?

Would automatically destroy the video maker's case.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Jarnail Singh ji died for His cause..soemthing that is a page out of Sikh history...and he honoured his ardass. Most of the others havent even sacrificed a single drop of their blood..nay many of them dont beleive in the SIPAHI part of Gurmat..only the SANT part is supreme to them. How many of these sants came out in the open in 1984 ??? How many came out after the Govt had cleared the Punjab and made it a graveyard. Its not Ninda to speak the Truth.
2. Also notice that most of the time the "Good sants" are the dead ones....the LIVING good sants should be named and defended by showing what GOOD they are doing for the Khalsa Panth..with proof..then maybe more will accept....beating the dholl about baba attar singh and baba nand singh and etc etc is taking refuge in the past....remember Guru Gobind Singh Ji SACRIFICED EVERY MEMBER OF HIS FAMILY and declared Chhar mooyeh to kia hooah jeewat kayee hazaar...SO Far NOT a single sikh has come even near that great sacrifice...modern day sants are no different.
Dont hide behidn the scare word "ninda"...brign out the solid unrefutable PROOF of good deeds of Living present day Sants..and...we may beleive...after all just see the Living Proof of Pingalwarra is unrefutable...its so easy...no one can dispute the saintliness of late bahgat pooran singh...its NOT DIFFICULT at all.
Regards
Gyani Jarnail Singh

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Gyani ji

Thank you for one more passionate essay in which you light the path without condemnation and without looking down on people like me.

You are correct. If someone is telling the truth, the truth cannot be slander i.e., nindya.

But here is the problem. So many debaters who use this term are 100 percent certain that they are in possession of the TRUTH -- all 24 karats of it -- and their opponents in a debate are not in possession of the Truth, and are therefore doing Nindya.

So maybe those rockets shot across the bow of a boat are really heat-seeking missles.

ad ji, you are absolutley right about my "passion"..and yes i do try and emulate our Father Guru Ji in treating everyone as my equal..Hum Nhain changgeh bura nahin Koi..( I do try..its difficult..but i try..).

And yes its very common human trait....each of us in a "debate" is convinced that only we have caught the black cat in the dark room....so each shouts..I have Got it..i have got it....in reality ???? there is no black cat to begin with !! AS Moulder ( X files) always says..The TRUTH is OUT THERE..somewhere....so elusive...so near..yet so far... Thats why a Group Mods work is very difficult...walking on the sharp blade edge..not fall off or get feet cut in the process ( I have tried it many times...and gave up as i tend to get very "passionate" and things get out of control..so i do envy you your fine job- Guru ji Kirpa karan...not everyone is cut out to be a "capable judge"..fair to both sides...
Lets keep on walking on the path of our GURU....as fast as we can...and as well as we can.....Heat Seeking Missliles are so fast and furious...we just got to learn how to avoid them....my personal experience on the Net for the past 15 years...there are ONLY about FIVE such persons who have a large stock of these missiles which they use on every Forum to shut down their opponents- favourite topics..dsm granth-meat eating-sants-miracles..angels,bhoots,jamdoots,84 lakh joons, reincarnations, based on word for word literal translation of SGGS. Everywhere the same posters, same arguments and as a Last RESORT... same personal attacks.)
MY Consolation..MY GURU JI also faced same..if not worse...Hot Plates, and more...compared to me..just words....so i carry on the "crusade...forced to use an unsuitable word for lack of a better one )
Regards
Gyani jarnail Singh

 

[Archived_Member_19]

The kingdom of Heaven lies in one's heart



just felt like quoting this dialogue

 

[spnadmin]

ad ji, you are absolutley right about my "passion"..and yes i do try and emulate our Father Guru Ji in treating everyone as my equal..Hum Nhain changgeh bura nahin Koi..( I do try..its difficult..but i try..).

And yes its very common human trait....each of us in a "debate" is convinced that only we have caught the black cat in the dark room....so each shouts..I have Got it..i have got it....in reality ???? there is no black cat to begin with !! AS Moulder ( X files) always says..The TRUTH is OUT THERE..somewhere....so elusive...so near..yet so far... Thats why a Group Mods work is very difficult...walking on the sharp blade edge..not fall off or get feet cut in the process ( I have tried it many times...and gave up as i tend to get very "passionate" and things get out of control..so i do envy you your fine job- Guru ji Kirpa karan...not everyone is cut out to be a "capable judge"..fair to both sides...
Lets keep on walking on the path of our GURU....as fast as we can...and as well as we can.....Heat Seeking Missliles are so fast and furious...we just got to learn how to avoid them....my personal experience on the Net for the past 15 years...there are ONLY about FIVE such persons who have a large stock of these missiles which they use on every Forum to shut down their opponents- favourite topics..dsm granth-meat eating-sants-miracles..angels,bhoots,jamdoots,84 lakh joons, reincarnations, based on word for word literal translation of SGGS. Everywhere the same posters, same arguments and as a Last RESORT... same personal attacks.)
MY Consolation..MY GURU JI also faced same..if not worse...Hot Plates, and more...compared to me..just words....so i carry on the "crusade...forced to use an unsuitable word for lack of a better one )
Regards
Gyani jarnail Singh

Sat Nam

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

The kingdom of Heaven lies in one's heart



just felt like quoting this dialogue

THIS is repeated many many times in GURBANI. The "SANT..SAADH..SAADHU..as in Sadh BHETNA..saadhu Bhetna...are all metaphors for "Communication" with the Creator" who is WITHIN.
Gurbani is Total experience of this "communication" achieved by our Gurus, Bhagats and the writers/contributors to SGGS. YES the Kingdom of Heaven is indeed WITHIN US.."Harmandar" Har Sajiah....Guru Amardass Ji si saying about the HUMAN BODY....our Body is the HARMANDIR abode of HAR.
2. We Sikhs have dragged our "Gurbani" train off its TRACK..and begun to forcibly run it along the Dead End Track already closed down by Guru Ji...
Meaning that Guru nanak ji on His visit to MECCA was to show that ALLAH the Creator is NOT CONFINED to this one place...and Bhagat Ji asks..IF Allah is confined to the WEST..and RAAM is confined to the EAST..WHO TAKES care of the North and South ??
Now SIKHS have picked up this discarded/discredited piece of "theory"..and applied it to..WAHEGURU is in Harmandir Sahib..Akal takhat...SACH KHAND..or in HEMKUNT... when in Fact Waheguru is Everywhere...
www.sabdvartara.org Bhai Mohinder Singh SDO explains so beautifully with actual examples from Gurbani of SGGS. All KIrtan is Downloadable/streamable.

Gyani Jarnail Singh

 

[spnadmin]

Gyani ji

I tried to contact the link below, but the "server is not found" The goal was to start a thread using the thread resources. Would you check to see if there is another url? Thanks so much.

Could the link be http://www.sabadvartara.org?

This site, if it is the one you speak of, is in Punjabi but they have an audio section that seems to be in Punjabi and in English. I don't know for sure.

http://www.svaudio.org

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

aad jio, gurfateh. so sorry. my mistake in spelling...the link is www.sabadvartara.org
and yes the www.svaudio.org is the same people.
another pdf in Gurmukhi/Punjabi on common words misinterpreted in Gurbani Sabad Vartara - Teerath - Teerath..Ishnnaan, Amrtisar, Sarovar , Ramdass etc.
http://cybereon.com/Gurmat_le_har_bol.pdf bilingual again in serious misinterprtations of Gurbani Concepts of Yoga, ear rings, naam japping thru mere repetition rote style etc etc.
Some of the Audios and movies are really good.
Gyani jarnail Singh

 

[spnadmin]

Gyani ji

Thanks for confirming. We have a thread of discourses in Punjabi and those links might really be a good addition.

:yes:

 

[Sikh80]

soeI sMqu ij BwvY rwm ] (867-14, goNf, mÚ 5)
He alone is a Saint, who is pleasing to the Lord.

sMq goibMd kY eykY kwm ]1] rhwau ] (867-14, goNf, mÚ 5)
The Saints, and God, have only one job to do. ||1||Pause||

[/FONT] sMq kY aUpir dyie pRBu hwQ ] (867-15, goNf, mÚ 5)
God gives His hand to shelter the Saints.

sMq kY sMig bsY idnu rwiq ] (867-15, goNf, mÚ 5)
He dwells with His Saints, day and night.

swis swis sMqh pRiqpwil ] (867-15, goNf, mÚ 5)
With each and every breath, He cherishes His Saints.

sMq kw doKI rwj qy twil ]2] (867-16, goNf, mÚ 5)
He takes the power away from the enemies of the Saints. ||2||

sMq kI inMdw krhu n koie ] (867-16, goNf, mÚ 5)
Let no one slander the Saints.

jo inMdY iqs kw pqnu hoie ] (867-16, goNf, mÚ 5)
Whoever slanders them, will be destroyed.

ijs kau rwKY isrjnhwru ] (867-17, goNf, mÚ 5)
One who is protected by the Creator Lord,

JK mwrau sgl sMswru ]3] (867-17, goNf, mÚ 5)
cannot be harmed, no matter how much the whole world may try. ||3||

And

nwrwiex swDsMig nrwiex ] (868-5, goNf, mÚ 5)
The Lord, the Lord, is in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy.

 

[Sikh80]

goNf ] (872-8)
Gond:


jYsy mMdr mih blhr nw TwhrY ] (872-8, goNf, Bgq kbIr jI)
As the house will not stand when the supporting beams are removed from within it,

nwm ibnw kYsy pwir auqrY ] (872-8, goNf, Bgq kbIr jI)
just so, without the Naam, the Name of the Lord, how can anyone be carried across?


kuMB ibnw jlu nw tIkwvY ] (872-8, goNf, Bgq kbIr jI)
Without the pitcher, the water is not contained;


swDU ibnu AYsy Abgqu jwvY ]1] (872-9, goNf, Bgq kbIr jI)
just so, without the Holy Saint, the mortal departs in misery. ||1||[/FONT]

 

[Sikh80]

A question
There is specific mention of Saadh, the Holy in Bani. I had quoted from the bani. In the context the meaning is very clear to me. It seems that Saadh/Sangat can feel the presence of the Lord more easily than an individual. Hence one is advised to be in the company of sangat. But what would be the position of a Saint.[When translated from Sadhu.] Nothing is superfluous and has to be assigned meaning. I fail to do so and would request if learned member can throw some light as to who is saadhu.

Earler,It has been opined by pk 70 ji that one who takes to Naam abhiyaas is a sadhu. However, to me the State of sadhu /sadhoo should be much above the practitioners of naam in the ordinary senses of the word. In any case advice is sought from the members. The term has not been discussed at length anywhere by the commentators as well.

jYsy hlhr ibnw ijmI nhI boeIAY ] (872-10, goNf, Bgq kbIr jI)
Without a farmer, the land is not planted;


sUq ibnw kYsy mxI proeIAY ] (872-10, goNf, Bgq kbIr jI)
without a thread, how can the beads be strung?


GuMfI ibnu ikAw gMiT cVHweIAY ] (872-11, goNf, Bgq kbIr jI)
Without a loop, how can the knot be tied?


swDU ibnu qYsy Abgqu jweIAY ]2] (872-11, goNf, Bgq kbIr jI)
Just so, without the Holy Saint, the mortal departs in misery. ||2||


jYsy mwq ipqw ibnu bwlu n hoeI ] (872-11, goNf, Bgq kbIr jI)
Without a mother or father there is no child;


ibMb ibnw kYsy kpry DoeI ] (872-12, goNf, Bgq kbIr jI)
just so, without water, how can the clothes be washed?


Gor ibnw kYsy Asvwr ] (872-12, goNf, Bgq kbIr jI)
Without a horse, how can there be a rider?


swDU ibnu nwhI drvwr ]3] (872-12, goNf, Bgq kbIr jI)
Without the Holy Saint, one cannot reach the Court of the Lord. ||3||

The above line shows that the position of saint is almost equal to Guru or the God Himself. Thus anyone who has attained the jewel of Naam from the God Himself shall qualify for this. But when one has achieved the Naam from the God ,one may not even like to disclose this and hence even if we are able define and try to keep him bound in the definition the identification of Saint shall again be a problem. May be there should be a better explanation.
[/FONT]

 

[spnadmin]

Sikkh80 ji

In response to your comment:
The above line shows that the position of saint is almost equal to Guru or the God Himself. Thus anyone who has attained the jewel of Naam from the God Himself shall qualify for this. But when one has achieved the Naam from the God ,one may not even like to disclose this and hence even if we are able define and try to keep him bound in the definition the identification of Saint shall again be a problem. May be there should be a better explanation[/FONT]

What makes Gurbani so subtle are lines like these.

So we have to consider that Giuruji is saying "the" Saint, not any saint or even "a" Saint. In grasping the meaning of the line the question that follows is Who is 'the" Saint that Guruji speaks of?

swDU ibnu nwhI drvwr ]3] (872-12, goNf, Bgq kbIr jI)
Without the Holy Saint, one cannot reach the Court of the Lord. ||3||
[/FONT]
If we were left to the good offices of "a" Saint that we happened to meet, then would not all the good shelter and support of Sri Guru Granth Sahib be somehow undermined by a human influence of a human saint. Thinking that we are liberated by simran, meditation, jap and God's Grace, the line takes on a more specific meaning.

 

[Sikh80]

aad ji,

Your answer is totally in alignment with the sikh philosophy and we all have this kind of concept. Your answer thus is thought provoking. All that is being put forward is as to who is the 'saint' that has found such a high position that Guru Sahibs have stated this also:

yqI pRBU jnweI rsnw qyq BnI ] (456-4, Awsw, mÚ 5)
As much as God has revealed to us, that much we can speak with our tongues.

Anjwnq jo syvY qyqI nh jwie gnI ] (456-4, Awsw, mÚ 5)
Those unknown ones who serve You cannot be counted.

Aivgq Agnq AQwh Twkur sgl mMJy bwhrw ] (456-4, Awsw, mÚ 5)
Imperishable, incalculable, and unfathomable is the Lord and Master; He is everywhere, inside and out.

srb jwick eyku dwqw nh dUir sMgI jwhrw ] (456-5, Awsw, mÚ 5)
We are all beggars, He is the One and only Giver; He is not far away, but is with us, ever-present.

vis Bgq QIAw imly jIAw qw kI aupmw ikq gnI ] (456-5, Awsw, mÚ 5)
He is in the power of His devotees; those whose souls are united with Him - how can their praises be sung?

iehu dwnu mwnu nwnku pwey sIsu swDh Dir crnI ]4]2]5] (456-6, Awsw, mÚ 5)
May Nanak receive this gift and honor, of placing his head on the feet of the Holy Saints. ||4||2||5||[/FONT]

Further the following line is again suggestive of the same concept.


Awid AMiq byAMq Kojih sunI auDrn sMqsMg ibDy ] (456-16, Awsw, mÚ 5)

In the beginning and in the end, countless are those who seek the Lord. I have heard that the Society of the Saints is the way to salvation.

One has to bring reconciliation to this. Had it not been required to be so ,there would not have been any inclusion of these satar/lines/tuks in Bani. But since we have it in Bani ;it should connote a specific meaning.I do not have any answer for this and would not expect others to have ready made answer if the 'saint' so spoken is reflective of any individual or otherwise. 'Saint' may be reflective of 'sangat' in entirety as well.

But it is only a conjecture and may not be correct.
Let us also have a look at the following.It also states clearly that Saint has to be assigned some specific meaning like we have the concept of Gurmukh and manmukh.
[/FONT]
hir AMimRq bUMd suhwvxI imil swDU pIvxhwru ] (134-12, mwJ, mÚ 5)
The drops of the Lord's Nectar are so beautiful! Meeting the Holy Saint, we drink these in.

And Further :

[/FONT] swDu imlY pUrb sMjog ] (153-2, gauVI, mÚ 1)
One meets the Holy Saint only through perfect destiny.

And Further:

[/FONT] kir syvw sMqw AMimRqu muiK pwhw jIau ] (173-3, gauVI mwJ, mÚ 4)
Let's serve the Saints[/FONT], and drink in the Ambrosial Nectar[/FONT]

You would agree with me that Saint is spread almost at many places in Gurbani.We have to exclude the saint as the one that we consider in normal parlance. Saint has to be a realized soul who has been blessed by the Lord Himself. Such a person would be a Brahmgyani and we have the attributes of Brahmgyani in Sukhmani sahib [Gaudi]

Brahmgyani has been stated to be almost a GOd and if we take this term in that sense some questions can stand to rest. Nonetheless , it requires a careful consideration.


May be Later when the haziness is gone.


Regards
[/FONT]

 

[Sikh80]

sMq jnw imil pwieAw myry goivdw myrw hir pRBu sjxu sYxI jIau ] (174-1, gauVI mwJ, mÚ 4)
Meeting the Saints, O my Lord of the Universe, I have found my Lord God, my Companion, my Best Friend.


mY mylhu sMq myrw hir pRBu sjxu mY min qin BuK lgweIAw jIau ] (174-3, gauVI mwJ, mÚ 4)
O Saints, unite me with my Lord God, my Best Friend; my mind and body are hungry for Him.

The above lines are put separately so that other lines can be posted here as and when the term 'saint' appears to me during further reading and till suitable meaning is found out for the term 'Saint'.
First Find
[/FONT]

sMq kw lIAw Driq ibdwrau ] (867-13, goNf, mÚ 5)
One who is cursed by the Saints, is thrown down on the ground.

sMq kw inMdku Akws qy twrau ] (867-13, goNf, mÚ 5)
The slanderer of the Saints is thrown down from the skies.

sMq kau rwKau Apny jIA nwil ] (867-13, goNf, mÚ 5)
I hold the Saints close to my soul.

sMq auDwrau qqiKx qwil ]1] (867-14, goNf, mÚ 5)
The Saints are saved instantaneously. ||1||

soeI sMqu ij BwvY rwm ] (867-14, goNf, mÚ 5)
He alone is a Saint, who is pleasing to the Lord.

sMq goibMd kY eykY kwm ]1] rhwau ] (867-14, goNf, mÚ 5)
The Saints, and God, have only one job to do. ||1||Pause||

sMq kY aUpir dyie pRBu hwQ ] (867-15, goNf, mÚ 5)
God gives His hand to shelter the Saints.

sMq kY sMig bsY idnu rwiq ] (867-15, goNf, mÚ 5)
He dwells with His Saints, day and night.

swis swis sMqh pRiqpwil ] (867-15, goNf, mÚ 5)
With each and every breath, He cherishes His Saints.

sMq kw doKI rwj qy twil ]2] (867-16, goNf, mÚ 5)
He takes the power away from the enemies of the Saints. ||2||

sMq kI inMdw krhu n koie ] (867-16, goNf, mÚ 5)
Let no one slander the Saints.

jo inMdY iqs kw pqnu hoie ] (867-16, goNf, mÚ 5)
Whoever slanders them, will be destroyed.

ijs kau rwKY isrjnhwru ] (867-17, goNf, mÚ 5)
One who is protected by the Creator Lord,
​

[/FONT]

 

[Sikh80]

Page 13, Line 8
ਕਾਮਿ ਕਰੋਧਿ ਨਗਰੁ ਬਹੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਖੰਡਲ ਖੰਡਾ ਹੇ ॥
कामि करोधि नगरु बहु भरिआ मिलि साधू खंडल खंडा हे ॥
The body-village is filled to overflowing with anger and sexual desire; these were broken into bits when I met with the Holy Saint.

2.
Page 13, Line 9
ਕਰਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਅੰਜੁਲੀ ਪੁਨੁ ਵਡਾ ਹੇ ॥
करि साधू अंजुली पुनु वडा हे ॥
Greet the Holy Saint with your palms pressed together; this is an act of great merit.
Guru Ram Das
3.
Page 13, Line 14
ਕਰਉ ਬੇਨੰਤੀ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਮੀਤਾ ਸੰਤ ਟਹਲ ਕੀ ਬੇਲਾ ॥
करउ बेनंती सुणहु मेरे मीता संत टहल की बेला ॥
Listen, my friends, I beg of you: now is the time to serve the Saints!
Guru Arjan Dev
4.
Page 13, Line 19
ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸੁ ਇਹੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਮਾਗੈ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਕਰਿ ਸੰਤਨ ਕੀ ਧੂਰੇ ॥੪॥੫॥
नानक दासु इहै सुखु मागै मो कउ करि संतन की धूरे ॥४॥५॥
Nanak, Your slave, begs for this happiness: let me be the dust of the feet of the Saints. ||4||5||
Guru Arjan Dev

5.
Full Shabad is reproduced for reference.
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ ਪੂਰਬੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
रागु गउड़ी पूरबी महला ५ ॥
Raag Gauree Poorbee, Fifth Mehl:
ਕਰਉ ਬੇਨੰਤੀ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਮੀਤਾ ਸੰਤ ਟਹਲ ਕੀ ਬੇਲਾ ॥
करउ बेनंती सुणहु मेरे मीता संत टहल की बेला ॥
Listen, my friends, I beg of you: now is the time to serve the Saints!
ਈਹਾ ਖਾਟਿ ਚਲਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਲਾਹਾ ਆਗੈ ਬਸਨੁ ਸੁਹੇਲਾ ॥੧॥
ईहा खाटि चलहु हरि लाहा आगै बसनु सुहेला ॥१॥
In this world, earn the profit of the Lord's Name, and hereafter, you shall dwell in peace. ||1||
ਅਉਧ ਘਟੈ ਦਿਨਸੁ ਰੈਣਾਰੇ ॥
अउध घटै दिनसु रैणारे ॥
This life is diminishing, day and night.
ਮਨ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
मन गुर मिलि काज सवारे ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Meeting with the Guru, your affairs shall be resolved. ||1||Pause||
ਇਹੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਬਿਕਾਰੁ ਸੰਸੇ ਮਹਿ ਤਰਿਓ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ॥
इहु संसारु बिकारु संसे महि तरिओ ब्रहम गिआनी ॥
This world is engrossed in corruption and cynicism. Only those who know God are saved.
ਜਿਸਹਿ ਜਗਾਇ ਪੀਆਵੈ ਇਹੁ ਰਸੁ ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਤਿਨਿ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੨॥
जिसहि जगाइ पीआवै इहु रसु अकथ कथा तिनि जानी ॥२॥
Only those who are awakened by the Lord to drink in this Sublime Essence, come to know the Unspoken Speech of the Lord. ||2||
ਜਾ ਕਉ ਆਏ ਸੋਈ ਬਿਹਾਝਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਮਨਹਿ ਬਸੇਰਾ ॥
जा कउ आए सोई बिहाझहु हरि गुर ते मनहि बसेरा ॥
Purchase only that for which you have come into the world, and through the Guru, the Lord shall dwell within your mind.
ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਮਹਲੁ ਪਾਵਹੁ ਸੁਖ ਸਹਜੇ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਨ ਹੋਇਗੋ ਫੇਰਾ ॥੩॥
निज घरि महलु पावहु सुख सहजे बहुरि न होइगो फेरा ॥३॥
Within the home of your own inner being, you shall obtain the Mansion of the Lord's Presence with intuitive ease. You shall not be consigned again to the wheel of reincarnation. ||3||
ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਬਿਧਾਤੇ ਸਰਧਾ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਪੂਰੇ ॥
अंतरजामी पुरख बिधाते सरधा मन की पूरे ॥
O Inner-knower, Searcher of Hearts, O Primal Being, Architect of Destiny: please fulfill this yearning of my mind.
ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸੁ ਇਹੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਮਾਗੈ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਕਰਿ ਸੰਤਨ ਕੀ ਧੂਰੇ ॥੪॥੫॥
नानक दासु इहै सुखु मागै मो कउ करि संतन की धूरे ॥४॥५॥
Nanak, Your slave, begs for this happiness: let me be the dust of the feet of the Saints. ||4||5||

There is a direct reference in the bani that one should be the slave to the Saintly persons. May be these saints are the Gurmukhs who are totally immersed in the naam. This is again a conjecture and is subject to correction as per bani.However, I find it difficult to interpret it alone.It is quite possible that on account of the the edicts that we have to accept SGGS ji as our Guru that we should not emphasise upon the Saints in Human format.

The idea that Gurmukhs are the saints is also strengthened by the following Tuk :

gurmuiK swD syeI pRB Bwey kir ikrpw Awip imlwvY ]1] (881-8, rwmklI, mÚ 4)
The Gurmukhs are the Holy Saints, pleasing to God; in His mercy, He blends them with Himself. ||1||

With this interpretation that satisfies the requirement of Bani I rest my further reading and investigation. Who is Gurmukh is clearly explained in bani at many places. I am quoting the following :

gurmuiK pUrw jy kry pweIAY swcu Aqolu ]1] rhwau ] (17-11, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
One who attains perfection as Gurmukh, obtains the Immeasurable True Lord. ||1||Pause||



And the following:




ArD aurD kI sMiD ikau jwnY ] (228-8, gauVI, mÚ 1)
How can anyone know of the Union between the being below and the Supreme Being above?


gurmuiK sMiD imlY mnu mwnY ]7] (228-8, gauVI, mÚ 1)
The Gurmukhs obtain this Union; their minds are reconciliated[/FONT]

Bani further suggests something in the following.

hir kw nwmu AMimRqu kil mwih ] (888-15, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
The Name of the Lord is Ambrosial Nectar in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga.
eyhu inDwnw swDU pwih ] (888-15, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
This treasure is obtained from the Holy.


Submitted for further comments by honorable members.

 

[spnadmin]

Sikh80 ji

Tell me if I am wrong. But to me Guruji is saying that there is One Holy Sant speaking in the form of Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

This has always been a difficult concept for me. I believe there is ONE Holy Sant, but am willing to listen to other explanations.

The three lines leading me to that conclusion come from your previous posting. Two times, Guru Ran Das says met/meet with the Holy Sant and this is combined with greet the Guru. SANT AND THE SATGURU are the same presence in my understanding.


ਕਾਮਿ ਕਰੋਧਿ ਨਗਰੁ ਬਹੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਖੰਡਲ ਖੰਡਾ ਹੇ ॥
Kām karoḏẖ nagar baho bẖari*ā mil sāḏẖū kẖandal kẖanda hė.
The body-village is filled to overflowing with anger and sexual desire; these were broken into bits when I met with the Holy Saint.

ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਤ ਲਿਖੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਮਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਲਿਵ ਮੰਡਲ ਮੰਡਾ ਹੇ ॥੧॥
Pūrab likẖaṯ likẖė gur pā*i*ā man har liv mandal mandā hė. ||1||
By pre-ordained destiny, I have met with the Guru. I have entered into the realm of the Lord's Love. ||1||

ਕਰਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਅੰਜੁਲੀ ਪੁਨੁ ਵਡਾ ਹੇ ॥
Kar sāḏẖū anjulī pun vadā hė.
Greet the Holy Saint with your palms pressed together; this is an act of great merit.

You go onto to say the following, There is a direct reference in the bani that one should be the slave to the Saintly persons. The sants who are the sadhsangha(t)th, the holy persons, are one with The One Holy Sant, because of the purity of their consciousness. These sants and the "sants" in ardaas are not the One Holy Sant referred to in Gurbani per se. This is a different idea of "sants." So I am probably in agreement with you.

Thank you for putting the discussion forward. In His nirgun form He is beyond all of those who are One with Him, although they have merged with Him. IMHO

 

[pk70]

Late Sri Ishar Singh ji Rarewala used to wear sun glasses in side Diwan where there was no Sun, how it has sounded LOL?

 

[pk70]

A question
There is specific mention of Saadh, the Holy in Bani. I had quoted from the bani. In the context the meaning is very clear to me. It seems that Saadh/Sangat can feel the presence of the Lord more easily than an individual. Hence one is advised to be in the company of sangat. But what would be the position of a Saint.[When translated from Sadhu.] Nothing is superfluous and has to be assigned meaning. I fail to do so and would request if learned member can throw some light as to who is saadhu.

Earler,It has been opined by pk 70 ji that one who takes to Naam abhiyaas is a sadhu. However, to me the State of sadhu /sadhoo should be much above the practitioners of naam in the ordinary senses of the word. In any case advice is sought from the members. The term has not been discussed at length anywhere by the commentators as well.
(872-12, goNf, Bgq kbIr jI)
Without the Holy Saint, one cannot reach the Court of the Lord. ||3||

The above line shows that the position of saint is almost equal to Guru or the God Himself. Thus anyone who has attained the jewel of Naam from the God Himself shall qualify for this. But when one has achieved the Naam from the God ,one may not even like to disclose this and hence even if we are able define and try to keep him bound in the definition the identification of Saint shall again be a problem. May be there should be a better explanation.
[/FONT]

ਦੂਖੁ ਗਇਆ ਸਭੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਗਇਆ ॥
दूखु गइआ सभु रोगु गइआ ॥
Pain is gone, and all illness is gone.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਆਗਿਆ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਮਾਨੀ ਮਹਾ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਾ ਸੰਗੁ ਭਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
प्रभ की आगिआ मन महि मानी महा पुरख का संगु भइआ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
I have accepted the Will of God in my mind, associating with the Great Person, the Guru. ||1||Pause||


While doing some research on 'Saint' I have come across the above lines and shall be grateful if some light is thrown on the line that is colored in Blue. The literal translation or the literal meaning may not be acceptable as per Sikh philosophy. I submit this for the kind guidance of the learned members.
( Quote Sikh 80 ji)
Sikh 80 ji,
Your comments” literal translation may not be acceptable as per Sikh Phylosophy” Why not? In Gurbani, there is a definition of Sant/ Sadh, why it should be unacceptable to Sikh philosophy?
Above two Guru Vaakas, are together in conveying a meaning, pain and illness also needed to be explained. Pain we endure due to our actions ( current or past), illness is not only related with any physical disease, being inflicted with Maya is also illness, so When Great person, Guru is met, wall of falsehood loaded with illusions is shattered. What result it brings then? His Ordinance is understood ( Hukm Rajaaee chalna Nanak likhya naal), this very Ordinance becomes sweet and obeying it generates happiness; pain, sorrow and all Maya disease are gone because conflicts are gone, Duality ceases to exist. Take another example, He is pious Water, our souls are filthy water, when filth is cleaned, soul water mixed with pious Water.
NOW LOOK AT GURBANI DEFINITION OF SANT/SADH
[/FONT] ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੫ ॥ ਜਿਨਾ ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾਂ ਮਨਿ ਮੰਤੁ ॥ ਧੰਨੁ ਸਿ ਸੇਈ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਪੂਰਨੁ ਸੋਈ ਸੰਤੁ ॥੧॥ (GGS 319)
Slok 5th Guru. Who with every breath and morsel of theirs, forget not God's Name and within whose mind is this spell, they alone are the blessed and they alone are the perfect saints, O Nanak. (Tr by Manmohan singh)

Sant= Because of being imbued always with Lord’s love as interpreted by Guru ji,so he/she conquers vices, stays above depravity, iniquity, wickedness and corruption, revenge, jealousy, beguiling habits, quagmire of ego- iceberg etc and always remain only imbued with love of Parbrahm.( Bhai Veer Singh “SGGSKP-95)

Here is Sadh described by well known and virtuous Bhai Veer Singh and Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha
Sadh= Lover of Akaalpurakh (Bhia Veer Singh Sri Guru Granth Sahib Kosh )
Sadh= Virtuous, devoted to well being for others, Holy man, pious,( Bhai Kahan Singh –Mahan Kosh p-101
ਮਨੁ ਅਸਾਧੁ ਸਾਧੈ ਜਨੁ ਕੋਇ ॥The mind is uncontrollable; rare are those who subdue it, keep in control. (GGS 159) So Sadh is him/her who has kept mind in control literally from all kind of vices and negative primal forces.
ਛਾਇਆ ਰੂਪੀ ਸਾਧੁ ਹੈ ਜਿਨਿ ਤਜਿਆ ਬਾਦੁ ਬਿਬਾਦੁ (1376)( Kabir Ji)

There can be no more better explanation than the definition of Sant/Sadh given in Gurbani, problem rises when context of Sadh or Sant is not understood in different contexts,
or sticking with one meaning in all different contexts. Just understanding vast application is necessary to get out of confusion about a single word. Guru ji also states the ones who realize HIM becomes like HIM. Again Guru ji states” one in million” koee Virla” will do that; so clearly as per definitions given in Gurbani, Sadh or Sant are very rare, these words were also used for Guru ji. So I do not see any definition given by any one is better than the one given in Gurbani itself. By the way, these are not my views, I just tried say how these words are used in different contexts in Gurbani. If some one comes with different meaning other than what Gurbani says, It will be difficult for me to accept that. Thyanks for sharing your views and questions though.

 

[Sikh80]

Pk70 ji,

Thanks for taking interest and replying to the above. I have carefully gone through the reply and do appreciate your view point.

If you kindly look into the following Gurmukhi line carefully you would observe that There is no term as 'Guru' in the Gurmukhi line. It is the figment of imagination of the Translator. In the above line, so far as the contemporary sikh philosophy is concerned, the meaning of Maha Purukh should not be any physical guru. We have only one Guru and the is Sabad Guru. If we translate this Maha Purukh into sabad Guru things would not be simple as one can question further and hence I stop here without indulging in any discussion and accept your reply as a perfect reply as there cannot be a better explanation to this.

May be we are not able to go into deep and consider the meaning that was intended to be assigned. I am ,however, happy with your answer as there cannot be better answer than yours.

Kindly look into the followings:

hir AMimRq bUMd suhwvxI imil swDU pIvxhwru ] (134-12, mwJ, mÚ 5)
The drops of the Lord's Nectar are so beautiful! Meeting the Holy Saint, we drink these in.[/FONT]

1. Sadhu makes us drink the Nectar. We are told the naam is given by the Guru only .
[/FONT]

swDu imlY pUrb sMjog ] (153-2, gauVI, mÚ 1)
One meets the Holy Saint only through perfect destiny.[/FONT]


2. The same thing has been stated for Guru and the Lord. Hence the status of Sadhu should be much above as is understood in ordinary parlance . May be He is the Brahmgyani whose company is recommended in the above line.

[/FONT]kir syvw sMqw AMimRqu muiK pwhw jIau ] (173-3, gauVI mwJ, mÚ 4)
Let's serve the Saints, and drink in the Ambrosial Nectar.
imlu pUrib iliKAVy Duir krmw ]3] (173-4, gauVI mwJ, mÚ 4)
By one's karma and pre-ordained destiny, they are met. [/FONT]

3. These kinds of edicts are spread over the entire Granth sahib that with pre-ordained destiny one meets Saints. Hence the status of Sadhu again is much more than as is commonly understood. We have Guru Granth Sahib and we do not have any measures with us to locate one who is sadhu as is recommended here or we shall meet him as and when the Lord permits.

[/FONT]sMq jnw imil pwieAw myry goivdw myrw hir pRBu sjxu sYxI jIau ] (174-1, gauVI mwJ, mÚ 4)
Meeting the Saints, O my Lord of the Universe, I have found my Lord God, my Companion, my Best Friend.
mY mylhu sMq myrw hir pRBu sjxu mY min qin BuK lgweIAw jIau ] (174-3, gauVI mwJ, mÚ 4)
O Saints, unite me with my Lord God, my Best Friend; my mind and body are hungry for Him.[/FONT]

4. In the above lines it is stated clearly that the status of a saint is no less than Guru who makes us meet the Lord ,the best companion.


[/FONT] pwrbRhm moih ikrpw kIjY ] (181-12, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
O Supreme Lord God, please shower Your Mercy upon me.
DUir sMqn kI nwnk dIjY ]4]17]86] (181-12, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
Bless Nanak with the dust of the feet of the Saints. ||4||17||86||

5.In the above it is stated clearly that Saints are very blessed soul and one should be very humble and accept these kinds of blessed persons. But we meet them with pre-ordained destiny. Further these kinds of persons or 'Virla' only.

I think one has to carry on like this. We all interpret bani as per our level of understanding and do accept the meaning as is assigned by the seniors who have wider understanding of the bani and have an over all better appreciation of the bani as a whole. I thank you once again for the lucid reply.


Regards
[/FONT]
Line under consideration

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਆਗਿਆ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਮਾਨੀ ਮਹਾ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਾ ਸੰਗੁ ਭਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
प्रभ की आगिआ मन महि मानी महा पुरख का संगु भइआ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
I have accepted the Will of God in my mind, associating with the Great Person, the Guru. ||1||Pause||