Islam What Is The Wisdom From This Manner?

[Ambarsaria]

If I may summarize the whole process.

winkingmunda

Basically two items,

1. Give and protect jobs for Muslims
   • What any such employees recite, etc., is of no consequence to the animal it is simply to de-sensitize the slaughterer into believing something holy is happening
   • Simply trash as the animal dies with or without and words of wisdom or spirituality from any person having an impact
   • Now you can also extrapolate why there is great joy taken in reports of desecration of enemy corpses, torture of infidels and their killing methods
     • Simple extension of Halal extrapolated to infidels
2. Leave the animal wreathing with dangling neck

Folks need to be true to themselves. You want to eat meat some living thing has to die. Reading verses and bunch of hickory-pockry does not change the death part as it relates to the animal. Same goes for Kosher and their elaborate process garbage as it relates to modern hygienic meat processing. No rituals are needed or are sufficient to justify tortuous death of animals. One blow or Jhatka is the way to go if you must eat meat.

Regards.

 

[namjiwankaur]

Sat Nam _/|\_

@Ambarsaria ji

I guess, in the end, only the animal knows what it is experiencing, but we all agree the animal feels pain and that spiritually it is our obligation to cause as small an amount of suffering for animals as possible. Is this what you mean?

There is an expression "like chickens running around with their heads cut off". I want to google it and see if its true, but I'm too triggered and upset by that kind of stuff to go ahead and do it. Does anyone know if they actually do that?

OK, time for me, to chill out again. I've had a long and upsetting week & need to guard myself against more triggering (which wasn't from this forum, it was from events in my "irl/f2f" life).

Nam Jiwan

 

[Ambarsaria]

namji{censored}aur ji peace to you and stay well and may you find happiness and cherishment out of all that is around unencumbered by humans.

There is an expression "like chickens running around with their heads cut off".

I have seen that with my own eyes when a whole bunch of chickens were being cut to make meat for a wedding party in India, kind of way back. They squander around obviously as the muscle and spasms take time to die off in spite of the head being severed. I have seen videos of slaughter per Kosher and Halal. Seeing chickens fly around with their head cut-off is like candy compared to the observed pain in Halal and Kosher.

Very simple test that gets rid of the hocus-pocus religious stuff. We can ask ourselves as to a hypothetical choice of being slaughtered. Would we like to die in one blow or be slowly bled to death with Halal/Kosher style methodology? Pick the same for the animals. For me personally the answer is obvious.

Regards.

 

[namjiwankaur]

Sat Nam _/|\_

Ambarsaria ji

Very simple test that gets rid of the hocus-pocus religious stuff. We can ask ourselves as to a hypothetical choice of being slaughtered. Would we like to die in one blow or be slowly bled to death with Halal/Kosher style methodology? Pick the same for the animals. For me personally the answer is obvious.

Or C which would be not to be slaughtered at all. That's the path I choose (though I believe I need to go vegan to truly end my relationship with animals that suffer abuse. Dairy animals often lead horribly abused lives and painful frightening slaughter at the end of their life.

Nam Jiwan kudihug

 

[BhagatSingh]

Or D
If I was raised to be slaughtered one day, and if I were a large animal like a cow or a horse, who couldn't be killed with one blow. I'd prefer the Halal/Kosher slaughter over the ineffective Jhatka. And if I lived in the modern era, I'd prefer the Halal + Stun gun - factory farming = happy me.

 

[namjiwankaur]

Sat Nam _/|\_

Bhagat ji

I really believe that some animals hold the wisdom that they may serve another animal as nourishment.

Not sure if Sikhi teaches this If I remember what I read correctly, Sikhi doesn't think of human beings and other animals as equal.

Yes... we are animals after all. Maybe it explains why we are always so hungry for violence as a species.

Blessed Be!
Nam Jiwan

 

[namjiwankaur]

PS - "hungry for violence" --- totally missed that pun. Sometimes the best puns are the ones that are like Freudian moments.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Namjivan ji,
Sikhi sees humans as above animals only when talking about their ability to merge with God, and any quality that arises from this. Everything else is animal and instinct. Animals are living things, overflowing with essence of God, thus Bhagats like Kabir ji have compared slaughter to unjust, forceful, tyranny, and thus called it adharm saying, "Oh priest if you think killing an animal is dharmic then what is the difference between you and a butcher?"
Yes it's true that Guru Sahibs urge us to rise above vegetarianism and into the Sacred Realm of Truth, Sachkhand but the Sikh view is that of anti-animal slaughter. Kabir ji is against animal sacrifice only because unjust adharmic force in the slaughter is involved, not because something is offered to God (something that is actually encouraged). But many don't agree with this.

 

[Brother Onam]

Sat Sri Akal,
In the Bible there is a nice passage. Hosea, one of the old African Hebrew prophets quoted Yah ('Har' in Hebrew): "For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of Yah more than burnt offerings". Also the prophet Amos: "I despise your feast days... though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I will not accept them, nor will I regard your fatted peace offerings."
This sounds a lot like the teachings of Kabir Ji, as well as the words of Guru Gobind Singh Ji: "Giaan Guru aatam updesoh naam bibhoot lagaao".
May the day come when the rivers of flowing blood from all this religious 'sacrifices' can come to an end, and the real sacrifice of gratitude and peace and compassion and contemplation instead come up unto Him Above.
Peace, my brother.

 

[naben]

my dear brothers



--This is the original essence of the case

Jews such as illustration in the previous article
Do not worship God on the true face
God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses,Jesus, Muammad and so on

But
Worship their God and called ELOHIM
Moses, peace be upon him
Not forbidden to eat what God made ​​him
Such sentences

You can imagine distortion arrived degree
Prohibition of eating shrimp




--Through your words
I can see clearly
You say to the Muslims

Do not apply the limits of Allah in the Holy Qur'an and the Hadith

Any person who is on the whims do not care about the words of God

But

I'll tell you
Muslims can not be just like Christians or Jews
And invent a religion interpolated
Appropriate to the whims of personal

In the end

Everyone will die and meet God face to face

What will you say?
And you know the truth!!!!!

(46) And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.
(47) And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed – then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.


(49) And judge, [O Muammad], between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations and beware of them, lest they tempt you away from some of what Allah has revealed to you. And if they turn away – then know that Allah only intends to afflict them with some of their [own] sins. And indeed, many among the people are defiantly disobedient.
(50) Then is it the judgement of [the time of] ignorance they desire? But who is better than Allah in judgement for a people who are certain [in faith].


-------important point
This is the true essence of
The main problem

Confusion between several concepts
So
No reality show
But
Deception and fluidity of truth

There is a difference between mercy and compassion in the treatment of animals

This is one of the basics of Islam

And between

Application of laws and Halal and Haram in Islamic law

In the Holy Qur'an


1. O Prophet! Why do you ban (for yourself) that which Allah has made lawful to you, seeking to please your wives? And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

96. Lawful to you is (the pursuit of) water-game and its use for food - for the benefit of yourselves and those who travel, but forbidden is (the pursuit of) land-game as long as you are in a state of Ihram (for Hajj or 'Umrah). And fear Allah to Whom you shall be gathered back.

Frogs: it is not permissible to eat
That the Prophet peace be upon him forbade five: "Ant and Bee, Frog and Shrike and Hoopoe" 0


Through it
We find
God sets us in the Holy Qur'an

The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him in the Hadith

The foods we should eat

Halal clear
Fish meat - beef - strings - sheep - and so on

Haram foods ) clear
Pork - - claws....

Therefore
Any objection here is not right at all


---a.The animal should be slaughtered with a sharp object (knife)

The animal has to be slaughtered with a sharp object (knife) and in a fast way so that the pain of slaughter is minimised.
b. Cut wind pipe, throat and vessels of neck

Zabiha is an Arabic word which means slaughtered. The slaughtering is to be done by cutting the throat, windpipe and the blood vessels in the neck causing the animals death, but without cutting the spinal cord.

‫معجزة الذبح على الطريقة الاسلامية - مترجم‬‎ - YouTube

 

[namjiwankaur]

Sat Nam _/|\_

Onam Ji and Bhagat ji

Thanks to you both. You've comforted my heart. Animal suffering upsets me deeply.

I don't think animals are running on "instinct". There's much more to it than that. I've seen too many animals show themselves filled with a consciousness similar to the human species.

Even ants are pretty amazing. They must have a brain smaller than a poppy seed, yet they work as a colony to accomplish things. And they build those awesome ant-sized pyramids that we still find so amazing. I think there is a lot more consciousness within the animal (and probably even plant kingdom, etc) kingdom.

Whales for example. Oh, heck, now I'm gonna have to go ahead and start a thread on whales. Woo hoo! And then one on apes. Yippeee!!! Keep your stations tuned. :grinningkaur:

Nam Jiwan 0

 

[namjiwankaur]

Naben ji

1. O Prophet! Why do you ban (for yourself) that which Allah has made lawful to you, seeking to please your wives? And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Yet the Prophet, may he be immersed in Peace, told us not to allow our stomachs to become grave yards. Knowing the Prophet's love for animals and his desire to protect them and teach the Surrendered to respect animals and their feelings, I suspect that we can choose not to eat any meat killed in any way.

Also, what about this verse: Today, all good things have been made lawful to you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful to you, and your food is lawful to them. The chaste believing women and the chaste women of the people who were given the Book before you, are lawful to you, provided that you give them their dowers, and marry them, neither committing fornication nor taking them as mistresses. The deeds of anyone who rejects the faith will come to nothing, and in the Hereafter he will be among the losers. (Quran 5:5)

What is your (and of course, I would love to also hear the opinions of others here, not just brother Naben) opinion on eating the food of the People of the Book (religions which have been given Holy Books)?

I'm also wondering how others respond to: http://islamveg.com/

Blessed Be
Nam Jiwan motherlylove

 

[namjiwankaur]

Sat Nam _/|\_

The Circle of Life

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwSKkKrUzUk

 

[Ambarsaria]

naben ji I am no animal pain specialist but I don't understand any logic in the excerpted below.

The animal has to be slaughtered with a sharp object (knife) and in a fast way so that the pain of slaughter is minimised.
b. Cut wind pipe, throat and vessels of neck

Zabiha is an Arabic word which means slaughtered. The slaughtering is to be done by cutting the throat, windpipe and the blood vessels in the neck causing the animals death, but without cutting the spinal cord.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km_gOdYvpkk

Doesn't the pain travel through and share paths as the spinal cord? I thought some other poster stated the reason for intact spinal cord was to fool the brain into thinking the animal is still alive and the maximum blood is drained. I find all these explanations as simply denial statements to cover up sadistic and tortuous way of killing animals. Unfortunately the animals cannot speak back. Showing pious looking people with hands of compassion on killed animals does not wash with me.

No offense.

Regards.

 

[namjiwankaur]

Sat Nam _/|\_

Ambarsaria ji

I think many Muslims actually believe they are causing the animal less suffering. I personally follow my Bawa's teachings in this matter.

Something else just occurred to me. Most people in the US (can't speak for other nations), either don't care how the source of the meat and dairy was treated or they block it out. As for me, I struggle with numbing out over the dairy. I am having a hard time moving toward veganism. Partly because I love too many foods that contain dairy and also because it is more difficult for me to plan a healthy vegan diet.

Blessed Be...
Nam Jiwan kudihug

Doesn't the pain travel through and share paths as the spinal cord? I thought some other poster stated the reason for intact spinal cord was to fool the brain into thinking the animal is still alive and the maximum blood is drained. I find all these explanations as simply denial statements to cover up sadistic and tortuous way of killing animals. Unfortunately the animals cannot speak back. Showing pious looking people with hands of compassion on killed animals does not wash with me.

No offense.

Regards.

 

[BhagatSingh]

naben ji I am no animal pain specialist but I don't understand any logic in the excerpted below.Doesn't the pain travel through and share paths as the spinal cord? I thought some other poster stated the reason for intact spinal cord was to fool the brain into thinking the animal is still alive and the maximum blood is drained. I find all these explanations as simply denial statements to cover up sadistic and tortuous way of killing animals. Unfortunately the animals cannot speak back. Showing pious looking people with hands of compassion on killed animals does not wash with me.

No offense.

Regards.

Well the idea is that the body is alive but the brain dies out from blood loss. It's cannot survive long after it loses blood. They cut out the blood vessels going to the brain. The body and thus the heart keep running so the blood is drained from it. It's quite genius I would say. It sanitizes the meat.
This is not torture at all. Unjust and tyranical but not torture. Torture is what Sikhs went through e.g.Banda Bahadur undergoing skin mutilation. The executioner pulled out his skin and muscle with hot pincers. Bhai Dyal Das who was tortured in front of Guru Tegh Bahadur ji in boiling water. That is torture.

 

[namjiwankaur]

_/|\_ Sat Nam

Bhagat ji

It's quite genius I would say. It sanitizes the meat.

Not only does it show a way to sanitize meet which was developed in time void of scientific tools, etc, it shows God bestowing knowledge on a community at that time. It seems amazing to me how knowledge was transferred to all the various species on earth.

Yet the Prophet and Ali both spoke out against eating a lot of meat. This is how I know that vegetarianism is an acceptable diet in Islam. The Prophet was an animal rights activist in a time where it would have made his beliefs unique. He didn't want animals to suffer and chastised Muslims who were guilty of that sin. To me, it also means to minimize how many animals are slaughtered as food and how often human beings eat meat

Bless you...
Nam Jiwan kaurhug

 

[naben]

Respected members

it's simple


This explanation in the form of a question and answer


Non-Vegetarian Food makes Muslim Violent!

Q: Science tells us that whatever one eats has an effect on ones behaviour. Why does then Islam allow Muslims to eat non-vegetarian food, since eating of animals could make a person violent?

A: 1. Only eating of herbivorous animals is allowed by Islam. I agree that, what a person eats has an effect on his behaviour. This is one of the reasons why Islam prohibits the eating of carnivorous animals like lions, tigers, leopards, etc. who are violent and ferocious. The consumption of the meat of such animals would probably make a person violent and ferocious. Islam only allows the eating of herbivorous animals like goats, cattle, sheep, etc. that are peaceful and docile. We Muslims eat peaceful and docile animals because we are peace loving and non-violent people.
2. The Quran says Prophet prohibits what is bad

The Quran says: The Prophet commands them what is just and prohibits what is evil. He allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them what is bad (and impure), [Al-Araf 7: 157]

So take what the Messenger assigns to you and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. [Al-Hashr 59: 7]

For a Muslim, the Prophets statement is sufficient to convince him that Allah does not wish humans to eat some kinds of meat while allowing some other kinds.
3. Hadith prohibiting eating of carnivorous animals

According to various authentic Ahaadith narrated in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim including hadith narrated by Ibn Abbas in Sahih Muslim, Book of hunting and slaughter, Hadith No. 4752 and Sunan Ibn-i-Majah chapter 13 Hadith no. 3232 to 3234, the Holy Prophet (Pbuh) prohibited the eating of:

(I) Wild animals with canine teeth, i.e. meat eating carnivorous animals. These are animals belonging to the cat families such as lions, tigers, cats, dogs, wolfs, hyenas, etc.

(Ii) Certain rodents like mice, rats, rabbits with claws, etc.

(Iii) Certain reptiles like snakes, alligators, etc.

(Iv) Birds of prey with talons or claws, like vultures, eagle, crows, owl, etc.


islamic method of slaughtering animals - YouTube

 

[Ambarsaria]

BhagatSingh ji please research a bit before you give definitive answers.

Well the idea is that the body is alive but the brain dies out from blood loss. It's cannot survive long after it loses blood. They cut out the blood vessels going to the brain. The body and thus the heart keep running so the blood is drained from it. It's quite genius (lol) I would say. It sanitizes the meat ( lol).
This is not torture at all (lol). .....

Some quick search tells us the following,

Your brain is 2 percent of your body's weight but uses 20 percent of your oxygen supply and gets 20 percent of your blood flow.

There is no possibility of heart pumping more in Halal versus Jhatka. I believe any engineer (at least one with some knowledge of Hydraulics Engineering) will tell you that the heart pump collapses as soon it is emptied out of blood. Remember the carotid arteries tap straight into the aorta. The neck being fed almost straight from the aorta through cartoid artery as so close to the heart, there is little blood from muscles or extremities that is ever going to have any chance to leave the body and come towards the heart.

Basic flawed conjecture and another so called the science within ancient writings. If you research at SPN you will come across posts of Halal having no impact on "exsanguination". Find another reason for sanitation in Halal as the throat part is bogus voodoo science and conjecture.

Regards.

 

[Luckysingh]

It always goes back the same argument of halal must be healthy because of the blood flow..etc..etc..
Now, on another thread ''Is halal scientifically proven beneficial' or something very similar, I mentioned in simple/a little scientific detail to explain the differences in halal and jhatka.

There a quite a few factors involved in the two different processes when it comes to explaining scientifically.
We have to look at the main processes and this can give us a very good idea in the differences.
I have studied neurology/biology/physiology etc.. and can understand these explanations accordingly and in detail.
However, I did try and keep it simple and less technical so that the majority could follow.

Below is a quote from one of the posts that may be relevent here-

Read very carefully!!!

The advantage of halal, I know it was mentioned in a previous post, is the fact that the blood is allowed to be drained. This draining does help in 2 ways.

1) The blood is what carries most of the disease and toxins. When drained away, the remainder contains a lot less toxins, this is what some muslims refer to as 'pure',- as it is infact more pure due to less toxins. The blood contains toxins, bacteria, virus etc......It does not contain anything positively healthy ie.. getting rid of the blood, will not get rid of healthier or positive elements. ie. eliminating blood will NOT increase or concentrate toxicity elements, unless certain organ of animal is diseased- then it would be unfit for consumption anyway.

Note. .. this is an argument for halal, however in this day and age, it doesn't really apply. Unless, your in suburbs of Texas or somwhere with your own naturally reared chickens for you own consumption- without any antibiotics, supplements etc....

2) The draining also helps keep the meat soft. Often you will hear people claim that one tastes better than non-halal or halal, depending on personal preference ( remember steaks are served rare/medium/well done according to personal preference- some may like it soft and chewy, others may not.)

This is very true, many would be able to tell the difference from true halal and true jhatka. However, animals are stunned before hand in most environments ( not sure, how it goes in industrial halal settings), therefore in practice it's difficult to compare the 2 extremes.

How does the softness arise ? -when infact one may think that it would be the opposite, as you would get more dryness and rigidity with less blood.

I will try to explain, using simplified terms-

-Our muscles store gylcogen, this is an energy source.
Now, imagine your biceps for eg. -as one works/trains on these with weights etc, they grow in size and become more rigid. To maintain the rigidity and stiffness, one has to keep the glycogen activated by continued training and use.

Alot of the guys know that when they stop working out, they eventually lose the rigidity and stiffness in the bicep.- This is because the glycogen is not activated at the site and energy from the muscle is used in other parts of the body- to put it in simple terms (it's actually more complex)

-Another thing to note is 'rigor mortis'- This is the term used for the stiffening of muscles after someone dies.- almost as if they are contracting their biceps. -This occurs because glycogen is activated at the muscle sites soon after death.
Also when we use the 'jhatka' -sudden blow method- there is a sudden shock that stimulates the release of glycogen.
This leads to stiffening- which causes the meat to be tough and harder.

There is no sudden shock in halal except at the first cut of jugular and carotid artery, then the animal becomes relaxed as blood is drained away. This is a neurological action and NOT of the animal feeling at peace- or less distressed.

So, this explains why jhatka results with tougher meat than halal.

Note also,- The argument that ' animal struggles less with halal' is based on these grounds.

As most realise that jhatka-leads to stiffness, then they associate this sudden stiffness/shock with more struggling pain. Compared with halal, where there is less stiffness,then animal seems more at peace. When infact, pain levels are no lower with any method- It's a false perception and fact.

Another important fact, again from my knowledge of theory is that relating to blood clotting. This phenomenom occurs with the jhatka method which in turn can lead to spoiling or infection of the meat, the longer it remains uncooked.
Also note- even halal will get spoiling the longer it remains uncooked, but at a lower rate than jhatka.
The blood clotting also contributes to the hardening and toughness due to accumulation of clotting factors.


I have tried to mention the main points concerned relative to neurology and biological theory. There are many more complex factors involved that the average person will have difficulty to understand because of complicated terminology. However, there is nothing more that I can simplify in argument of jhatka or halal. The main points and false perceptions are explained above.