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Islam What Is The Wisdom From This Manner?

naben

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Feb 18, 2012
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Respected members


Al Shaddad Bin Aous has quoted this tradition of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) "God calls for mercy in everything, so be merciful when you kill and when you slaughter, sharpen your blade to relieve its pain".

Many allegations have been made that Islamic slaughter is not humane to animals. However, Professor Schultz and his colleague Dr. Hazim of the Hanover University, Germany, proved through an experiment, using an electroencephalograph (EEG) and electrocardiogram (ECG) that * Islamic slaughter is THE humane method of slaughter * and captive bolt stunning, practiced by the Western method, causes severe pain to the animal.

The results surprised many.

Experimental Details:

1. Several electrodes were surgically implanted at various points of the skull of all animals, touching the surface of the brain.


2. The animals were allowed to recover for several weeks.
3. Some animals were slaughtered by making a swift, deep incision with a sharp knife on the neck cutting the jugular veins and carotid Arteries of both sides; as also the trachea and oesophagus Halal Method.
4. Some animals were stunned using a captive bolt pistol humane slaughter by the western method.
5. During the experiment, EEG and ECG were recorded on all animals to record the condition of the brain and heart during the course of slaughter and stunning.

Results and Discussion:

I - Halal Method

1. The first three seconds from the time of Islamic slaughter as recorded on the EEG did not show any change from the graph before slaughter, thus indicating that the animal did not feel any pain during or immediately after the incision.
2. For the following 3 seconds, the EEG recorded a condition of deep sleep - unconsciousness. This is due to a large quantity of blood gushing out from the body.
3. After the above mentioned 6 seconds, the EEG recorded zero level, showing no feeling of pain at all.
4. As the brain message (EEG) dropped to zero level, the heart was still pounding and the body convulsing vigorously (a reflex action of the spinal cord) driving maximum blood from the body: resulting in hygienic meat for the consumer.

II - Western method by C.B.P. Stunning
1. The animals were apparently unconscious soon after stunning.
2. EEG showed severe pain immediately after stunning.
3. The hearts of the animal stunned by C.B.P. stopped beating earlier as compared to those of the animals slaughtered according to the Halal method resulting in the retention of more blood in the meat. This in turn is unhygienic for the consumer.
 

Luckysingh

Writer
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Dec 3, 2011
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1. The first three seconds from the time of Islamic slaughter as recorded on the EEG did not show any change from the graph before slaughter, thus indicating that the animal did not feel any pain during or immediately after the incision.
2. For the following 3 seconds, the EEG recorded a condition of deep sleep - unconsciousness. This is due to a large quantity of blood gushing out from the body.
3. After the above mentioned 6 seconds, the EEG recorded zero level, showing no feeling of pain at all.

Let me just clarify a little here as I understand quite well how this all works.
This study you have is very misleading and very most experts will doubt the accuracy.
I will explain a little whilst keeping it simple for everybody.-

EEG can be used to measure pain, but it just gives the experts an 'idea' it cannot be relied on completely. It is used with other measures such as heart rate, temperature, eye responses..etc.. to get a better idea.
The one and only 'Gold standard' for pain measurement is Self-Report and response of patient. Scientists are still working very hard to come up with a better gold-standard.

Now the above results are misleading because an EEG will only respond to an acute sudden stiimulus. It will not give you proper waves when there is 'prolonged' stimuli.
The electrical differences cannot keep changing therefore no new wave gets produced to put it in simple words.
When the wave or stimulus threshold is reached the the different waves become superimposed on each other since no new charge is emitting.

Most scientists will know what I'm talking about and will dismiss your experiment above.
It just like when you give some stunning to a subject, then only the initial sudden stun results in the most activity and the continued stunning can't get the same recorded response.
There are also many other factors involved in measuring pain such as having the electrodes at the top of the spinal cord in different areas which is not physically possible and also the activity of the brain when the pain thresholds are reached.
You have to understand that when the pain thresholds are reached and above, then a flat line does NOT mean there is no pain.



I can say with confidence that you will find no documented evidence without any flaws or innacuracies that will confirm 'LESS PAIN' with halal !!
If however you do, then I will be truly amazed and take it all back!!!
 

namjiwankaur

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Nov 14, 2010
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USA
_/|\_ Sat Nam

Lucky ji

Thanks for explaining all that.

I have a question. Not to create more of a debate, but I am wondering what is the likely scenario regarding the pain of an animal killed by the Sikh method. I want to hope it would sever all interactions between brain and the rest of the body so that it would be ultimately painless.

This conversation has really just convinced me that I made the right choice being a vegetarian. Now I just have to keep moving in the right direction (for me) toward veganism.

I was wondering if there are any specified rules in Sikhi about caring for animals which will become meat or provide dairy to consumers.

One of the things I love about the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, is how deeply he cared for the well-being of animals. There is a hadith that says we will be accountable for all misdeeds toward even a sparrow.

Interestingly, Jesus pbuh says that God cares more about people than animals. I think Muhammad's message was that animals and people are all children of God. Because Muhammad cared that much about them, I feel it is an acceptable choice to become vegan or vegetarian as a Sufi.

When I don't feel right is when I ignore the possibility of an animal's suffering when I eat a pancake in a restaurant, for example. I do pray for the ability to affordably make the switch to a completely plant based diet.

Nam Jiwan kudihug
 
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Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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Dec 21, 2010
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However, Professor Schultz and his colleague Dr. Hazim of the Hanover University, Germany, proved through an experiment, using an electroencephalograph (EEG) and electrocardiogram (ECG) that * Islamic slaughter is THE humane method of slaughter * and captive bolt stunning, practiced by the Western method, causes severe pain to the animal.
Please provide citation as it will be interesting reading and I am scientist at heart.

The results surprised many.
...
4. As the brain message (EEG) dropped to zero level, the heart was still pounding and the body convulsing vigorously (a reflex action of the spinal cord) driving maximum blood from the body: resulting in hygienic meat for the consumer.
Naben ji, what perverse logic to state the convulsions in halal are painless!

I hope you are not now going to claim that vigorous convulsions were a sign of joy versus pain. I am sure many will not be surprised if you now find a scientist that will say convulsions were happening so animal may rest in peace. Give up brother it is just hocus-pocus. Many a scientists have been bought, many an experiment faked, the priests and the kazis are on sale. Let us get real and move on respectfully.

II - Western method by C.B.P. Stunning
1. The animals were apparently unconscious soon after stunning.
2. EEG showed severe pain immediately after stunning.
3. The hearts of the animal stunned by C.B.P. stopped beating earlier as compared to those of the animals slaughtered according to the Halal method resulting in the retention of more blood in the meat. This in turn is unhygienic for the consumer.
No violent convulsions means little to no transmission, response or recognition of pain.

I use the direct language above not to show dis-respect but I don't want to mince my words on how I feel.

Regards.
 
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Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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Namji{censored}aur ji thanks for your post.
.....
When I don't feel right is when I ignore the possibility of an animal's suffering when I eat a pancake in a restaurant, for example. I do pray for the ability to affordably make the switch to a completely plant based diet.
Nam Jiwan kudihug
By the way I feel pain plucking a beautiful flower. Of course the degree is different versus an animal but the concept sustains. Our Guru ji tried to show us that all such is life. Life gives life and the circle of consonance will continue.

Regards.
 

BhagatSingh

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Apr 24, 2006
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Ambarsaria ji,
I was wrong. The blood flows out, actually not due to the heart but the difference in pressure being higher inside the vessels and lower on the outside (air).

Still, it takes exsanguination to slaughter a large animal whose neck is too thick for one blow. Halal then is better than hacking at the neck like it's some tree trunk. The latter is torture indeed.
 

techsingh

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Jul 14, 2012
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What about a big and sharp guillotine for the cows and the horses. If i was one of them i rather go with one blow of an super sharp big blade rather than having my throat silt and some alien prayers being read over me. But if my blood contamination worries you; you don't need to flipp'n eat me.
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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Dec 21, 2010
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Bhagat Singh ji thanks for your post.
Ambarsaria ji,
I was wrong. The blood flows out, actually not due to the heart but the difference in pressure being higher inside the vessels and lower on the outside (air).
Brother you got basically right but I am not going to give a discourse on Hydraulics or Fluid Dynamics. The issue is most good meat cuts are muscles. The steaks, sirloin, rib eye, etc. You ain't going to drain them of blood even if you try and this Halal thing in this respect is a joke. Unfortunately you are not going to find too many open minded people posting here in this regard it will be a new spin rather dialog. You really believe Luckysingh ji's well written post will be addressed in detail by Naben ji! I hold no hope.

There is no way to conclude or resolve this matter.


All big cuts of meat are red. The red does not come from milk. It is blood carrying tissues and muscles. I wonder if the Halal meat is less red than jhatka! I doubt it and I have been to few butchers and seen "Halal" labelled meats. Remember the major issue with "Halal" additionally is it is sacrificial and denial that you actually want to eat the meat for food value or taste. Spiritually this is a double talk and double standard and very damaging. It creates a flock of people who refuse to think but quote or obey. This is not generalization but a great possibility of behavior pattern.

Regards.

PS: Here is Halal in practice beyond flowery language and compassion statements,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_bZzxep87c
 
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Luckysingh

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Dec 3, 2011
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_/|\_ Sat Nam

Lucky ji

Thanks for explaining all that.

I have a question. Not to create more of a debate, but I am wondering what is the likely scenario regarding the pain of an animal killed by the Sikh method. I want to hope it would sever all interactions between brain and the rest of the body so that it would be ultimately painless.
Nam Jiwan kudihug

I'm glad you can all understand that because most texts are either to technical or too vague. I tried to use my own learned knowledge in giving simple explanations even though it was nearly 20 years ago when I learned it.
Anyway, you can guess what sort of profession I may be in, but I don't like to say because people start judging you in that manner. Therefore I find it easier not to announce my profession or education and stating a title in my name is just not my style.

With reference to more or less pain with sikh Jhatka method-
1st, we have to remember that the jhatka method is a sudden and very fast blow to the neck. This results in no screaming or physical expression of pain because the head simply comes off and the body and legs will carry on moving for a minute or two.
Now, blood supply to the brain is completely cut off and it will remain fully active for a few minutes. But since it will get deprived of all blood oxygen and all nutrients and all signals from spinal cord, then the time of feeling excruciating pain will be very short. It will be in a complete state of shock which in the extremes is usually complete numbness.

Comparing with halal method, similarly blood supply to head is cut off and the blood is drained. As this is happening then the blood oxygen and nutrients are eventually diminished. The brain is still active up until this happens which is longer than a fraction of a second. But before any numbness occurs or the signals from spinal cord stop registering, the brain death most likely occurs firstly due to the blood deprivation.
However there are also many more complicated chemical factors involved and going on at the same time that the braiin can shut down before the blood oxygen deprivation.

In my opinion the pain is NO LESS in either method. However it lasts a few seconds more in the halal method, but the upper limit of pain at that moment of cut will be more or less the same in both cases.

At the end of the day the animal is still killed and dead from an un-natural death. It has still died in PAIN in BOTH cases.
Anyone trying to justify that they are doing a 'favour' by slaughtering in halal or jhatka method is just kidding and fooling themselves.
If it gives us satisfaction to tell ourselves that my way is better, then we are just fools at the expense of another animals life.

Muslims are instructed not to have non-halal and sikhs are instruted to NOT have any ritualistic slaughters.
WHY?
- I think a slaughter is slaughter. Full stop.
Sikhs are not to ever believe that a slaughter becomes rightous if a prayer is done or some other ritual carried out.
 

naben

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Feb 18, 2012
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Donald522

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Nov 26, 2012
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Bless you, my brother.
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