What Was The Fuss All About?

[techsingh]

At the end of the day the only answer i get from DG supporters is, this and that Brham Gyani Sant did not object are you wiser than them. No Logic or concrete answers. But according to Gurmat there is only one Brahm Gyaini "Waheguru". But sadly DG supporters don't understand this simple concept taught by our Gurus.

@abneet there was a article written by Harjinder Singh Dilgeer about the origins of the taksaal. Maybe someone can post a link i can not seem to locate it.

@chaanpardesi you say 93% of DG is not bani of Guru Gobind Singh ji. What is the other 7% that is?

 

[Chaan Pardesi]

tech Ji...The other about 6.75 % is what the Panth then decided could be the rachna of Guru Gobind Singh ji.As the panth has made a decsion upon that, I do not wish to comment.Even though, I feel that they need to be looked at properly!

The dg argument that two banis come from dasam are irrelevent and do not hold water,as these were copied into it, after the rehatnamas-which started appearing during times of Guru Gibind himself!

Like they kept changing it's name , which was changed 7 times....to its present form!!!

If indeed it was Gurus kirt...who had the authority to change the name??????They kept changing to make sikhs accept this falsehood.

Maskeen was nirmala influenced and educated, he was good at understanding what he learnt, he did not always stayed within the parameters of Gurbani, he dragged in sanatan stories etc...because that was what he was taught!!The sikhs knew no better!

 

[Chaan Pardesi]

Dum dummy Taksaal stole the name in 1976.I translated that article and posted here.It has no connection to Bhai mani singh or baba deep Singh.It has no connection to damdam sahib either.

Theirs is simply a stolen history , made up as they went along.They just stole the whole chapter and somehow linked themselves into it!!

I have no questions about Jarnails Singh dogged stubborness in the Harmandir sahib.He fought like a sikh hero.

But how many know...he was a drop out from std six in his village school -at Rode-and then joined the chowk mehta jatha-that calls itself dumdumy taksaal!

He is declared to be a brahm giani..by his followers!!On what grounds?I wonder...

People like maskeen and others in their times served the panth, with the knowledge they had gathered from books prevalent then-they had a sangat that beleived without asking any questions-times have chnaged..Gurbani says sunniye , parriye vichariye...asking questions and learning and relearning is the sikh way of life.I have nothing against these people...but inadvertently many great injustices have been done to the faith by these preachers....that needs to chnage for the 21st and 22nd century Sikh faith!

 

[Abneet]

Dum dummy Taksaal stole the name in 1976.I translated that article and posted here.It has no connection to Bhai mani singh or baba deep Singh.It has no connection to damdam sahib either.

Theirs is simply a stolen history , made up as they went along.They just stole the whole chapter and somehow linked themselves into it!!

I have no questions about Jarnails Singh dogged stubborness in the Harmandir sahib.He fought like a sikh hero.

But how many know...he was a drop out from std six in his village school -at Rode-and then joined the chowk mehta jatha-that calls itself dumdumy taksaal!

He is declared to be a brahm giani..by his followers!!On what grounds?I wonder...

People like maskeen and others in their times served the panth, with the knowledge they had gathered from books prevalent then-they had a sangat that beleived without asking any questions-times have chnaged..Gurbani says sunniye , parriye vichariye...asking questions and learning and relearning is the sikh way of life.I have nothing against these people...but inadvertently many great injustices have been done to the faith by these preachers....that needs to chnage for the 21st and 22nd century Sikh faith!

No doubt that we should respect many gyani ji's that study Bani throughout their whole life and do parchar for the Sikh generation. But I think its good to have discussion about the authenticity of Dasam Granth and also question what parcharaks are saying today. Youtube has helped us a lot with that. The thing is the biggest person that attacked Dasam Granth in the past decade was Kala Afghana. Their reputation is pretty bad with leaders having rape cases and their points targeting amritvela, amrit sanchar, and even naam simran. But their points have been debunked but a lot of questions are left From that point Sikhs started discussing etc.. about the granth. Having parkash of it is totally wrong but still Taksal does it. Then Akal Takht comes up with no arguement aloud with the Dasam Granth which I feel is as if they are hiding something or are tired of all the fighting but who knows.

This video gives good details if you haven't watched it yet.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/nc4QW8kbz_Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Chaan Pardesi]

Abneet do NOT make up self concorted stories as usual, like you do.

Kala afghana did NOT attack dasam granth!

He was sat up ,with false accusations ,with made up stories after he had exposed the ex jathedar Vedanti and his book, Gurbilas paathsahi 6 vin-which had distorted history and facts.THis book was refused to be banned then , has now beenbanned a few months back.Shows the jathedar was trying to avenge the banning of his own book, as kala afghana had exposed it!

So when kala afghan wrote his book, he was then sat in numerous ways, by the chamchas of teh jathedar!

The people arrested in US for rape was your baba sadh daljit singh in Chicago-one who was in favour of the dasam granth! and jathedar people were trying to confuse the sangat about kala afghana and made additional accusations.

Eventually, he was charged for attacking the hindu religion, NOT for anyything against sikhs.Of course those brain washed against him were then happy saying he got his due punishment!!just see the stupidity of these people.

It just shows,how much you know and how you are sitting and spewing false stories up, from one end to another.

You are seem to be real helpful in spreading such false information about and very keen to defend and shut up any isue on dasam potha, by the looks of it, from what I have seen here.


Oh by the way, apart from asking totally irrelevent questions, you have not come with one line to challenge the contents of the false book!!!It looks lkike you have not read a single line in that book, but trying to argue based on what you have heard from babas.It would be wonderful to see these babas taking a debate on an open stage ..and saying the rubbish they tell the people who have no clue.

That would really expose their brahm giani status!!

 

[Luckysingh]

This video gives good details if you haven't watched it yet.
<IFRAME height=315 src="//www.youtube.com/embed/nc4QW8kbz_Y" frameBorder=0 width=560 allowfullscreen></IFRAME>

An excellent video that highlights importance of dasam granth.
I am no expert, but I am not in favor of any of the anti-dasam granth ranting that happens on this forum.
AND neither am I more holier than the nihangs to defame their pooratan maryada.

As far as I see and from what I have read, they are the writings of Guruji no doubt. It's the understanding that is of more importance and Jugraj has explained quite well in above video.0

 

[aristotle]

AND neither am I more holier than the nihangs to defame their pooratan maryada.

By Nihangs if you mean the people of Budha Dal, Taruna Dal, Harian Velan wale and all, or others who roam about intoxicated with marijuana, then only Guru Sahib can save the Panth. Is there any organistaion/society among them who actually respects the Sikh Rehat Maryada at all? And if we are to 'respect' their so-called 'puratan maryadas' why impose the Sikh Rehat Maryada at all, why not give every other person a free-hand? Are these so-called puratan maryadas 'holier-than-thou?

 

[aristotle]

The thing is the biggest person that attacked Dasam Granth in the past decade was Kala Afghana. Their reputation is pretty bad with leaders having rape cases and their points targeting amritvela, amrit sanchar, and even naam simran.

The problem is whenever anyone dares to challenge the 'established' status-quo, we run after him to demonify him. No one talks about the violence charges on Damdami Taksal head Dhumma, or the corruption charges on Jathedar Gurbachan Singh's son and relatives or how they have been openly supporting a particular political party. If discourse has come down to personal reputation and character, why spare anyone, or single out a particular person.

Most of the people who criticise Kala Afghana may have not read his writings at all. I am not glorifying him or anything like that, in fact I don't agree with him at many points, but to outright reject him just because everyone says so is not wise at all.

But their points have been debunked but a lot of questions are left From that point Sikhs started discussing etc.. about the granth. Having parkash of it is totally wrong but still Taksal does it. Then Akal Takht comes up with no arguement aloud with the Dasam Granth which I feel is as if they are hiding something or are tired of all the fighting but who knows.

The truth is that we excommunicated someone just because he wrote a book criticising our notions, but we 'respect' others who are running parallel maryadas inspite of the Sikh Rehat Maryada. The thing to ponder upon is that SRM is no ordinary document, it is an act of the Sarbat Khalsa, and was prepared by a team of Panthic scholars, still if some organisations dare to openly and proudly flaunt their own maryadas, isnt that an anti-Panthic activity? And if it is, who will check this?

 

[aristotle]

1) Has any gyani that is well-respected and well-knowledge in Sikhi scriptures in the past 200 years ever been against the DG?

If you think the DG controversy is a recent construct, you might be a little mistaken. As far as my knowledge of Sikh History goes, it openly came to the fore in 1738. Moreover Gyani Gurmukh Singh, Babu Teja Singh and many Sikh organisations have been denouncing the DG. In fact, Panch Khalsa Diwan Bhasaur had even published a book 'Dasam Granth Nirnay' openly challenging the contents of DG. Even DG scholars like Ratan Singh Jaggi maintain that the whole volume of DG could not have been Guru Sahib's work in any case.

2) Sikh Rehat Maryada says you have to believe in all 10 banis of the Gurus. So that includes DG. Can you explain to me how this maryada was to add DG has a authentic granth of Guru Gobind Singh Ji or did they not know of the DG when they came up with the rehit maryada.

You are perhaps forgetting the SRM order on not doing Prakash of DG parallel to Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj, nowhere in the SRM is it mentioned that the whole DG is Guru Sahib's work. If the scholars thought it was, they would have categorically mentioned it as the DG controversy existed at the time of SRM drafting too as much as it exists today. Moreover, simply because Jaap Sahib and Swaiyaas are included in the Nitnem does not mandate that ridiculous works like Krishnavtar, Chaubis Avtar, Brahmavatar, Mehdi Mir, Chandi Charitras or Hikayataan need to be respected and venerated as well.

3) Who changed up or made the DG according to you? Brahmins or Anti-Sikh agenda? I'd like to hear from you. How did they accomplish such a task?

Well, Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha mentions that the Dasam Granth was never a single volume, it was in the form of different books in different volumes and compilations which were only combined as one after the incident of Sukha Singh Mehtab Singh. This didn't take place during the times of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib or even Baba Banda Singh Bahadur, the compilation into a single volume took place when the Panth was not under any central command and was scattered throughout the Gangetic plains, even the Gurdwaras/Dharamsals weren't under Panthic control at that time, they were managed by Sanatani Mahants. What actually took place and how the DG appeared as a single volume may never be definitively known as our history is more hagiographical than historical for those time period and not many resources and landmarks for research have survived.

4) On the historical background of taksals, did Bhai Mani Singh and Baba Deep Singh start taksals to preach Sikhi? From there a lineage went on with the taksals or did Damdami taksal just add Baba Deep Singh's name to sound more authentic and valuable.

The History of Taksals is even more curious, the Taksals trace their ancestory back to the times of the tenth master, and needless to say, they have done commendable job in preserving the tradition of Kirtan, Katha and religious oratory in the past, But unfortunately enough, the Taksals of the present times barring a few have degraded to such a level that is beyond belief, acting as minions of vested political interests and maintaining little of their original responsibility.

 

[Abneet]

Abneet do NOT make up self concorted stories as usual, like you do.

Kala afghana did NOT attack dasam granth!

He was sat up ,with false accusations ,with made up stories after he had exposed the ex jathedar Vedanti and his book, Gurbilas paathsahi 6 vin-which had distorted history and facts.THis book was refused to be banned then , has now beenbanned a few months back.Shows the jathedar was trying to avenge the banning of his own book, as kala afghana had exposed it!

So when kala afghan wrote his book, he was then sat in numerous ways, by the chamchas of teh jathedar!

The people arrested in US for rape was your baba sadh daljit singh in Chicago-one who was in favour of the dasam granth! and jathedar people were trying to confuse the sangat about kala afghana and made additional accusations.

Eventually, he was charged for attacking the hindu religion, NOT for anyything against sikhs.Of course those brain washed against him were then happy saying he got his due punishment!!just see the stupidity of these people.

It just shows,how much you know and how you are sitting and spewing false stories up, from one end to another.

You are seem to be real helpful in spreading such false information about and very keen to defend and shut up any isue on dasam potha, by the looks of it, from what I have seen here.


Oh by the way, apart from asking totally irrelevent questions, you have not come with one line to challenge the contents of the false book!!!It looks lkike you have not read a single line in that book, but trying to argue based on what you have heard from babas.It would be wonderful to see these babas taking a debate on an open stage ..and saying the rubbish they tell the people who have no clue.

That would really expose their brahm giani status!!

Seriously the stuff you say is ridiculous. I don't follow any babas or such people. Dasam Granth wasn't attacked by Kala Afghana? He crticized Bichitar Natak. He was against amritvela and amrit sanchar. Who would even listen to this guy? Clearly you don't know Kala Afghana enough. Lets not bring him in this dicussion.

Go watch the video I posted and tell me what points he is misinterpreting about the Dasam Granth.

 

[aristotle]

Dasam Granth wasn't attacked by Kala Afghana?

He was neither the first nor the last person to do so.

 

[Harry Haller]

Seriously the stuff you say is ridiculous. I don't follow any babas or such people. Dasam Granth wasn't attacked by Kala Afghana? He crticized Bichitar Natak. He was against amritvela and amrit sanchar. Who would even listen to this guy? Clearly you don't know Kala Afghana enough. Lets not bring him in this dicussion.

Go watch the video I posted and tell me what points he is misinterpreting about the Dasam Granth.

You mention quite a few babas in your posts....

He intimated that Amrit vela was all the time, a concept I actually embrace
He questioned Amrit Sanchar as having been corrupted through time, again, something I also question
If you actually read through his statements, most of them make perfect sense, albeit they can be easily be misconstrued to turn him into some sort of heretic, but then give me heretics anyday, at least they question, and keep questioning, rather than the self satisfied smug and grasping Babas who just tell people what they want to hear.

 

[Sherdil]

You now say he is a reader of porno stories, as you follow the dasam granth

Chill out bro. The truth is that those "porno" stories happen in the real world. IMO, the point of those stories is to teach men and women to avoid thinking with what is between their legs, and start using their intellect.

Men and women cheat on each other all the time. It isn't right, but it happens all around us. By learning about it, we are protecting ourselves from getting used or manipulated. We avoid falling into the trap of Maya.

Dasam Granth is not guru, but it is "Bir Raas". It is a book for soldiers. Chess is a war game yeah? Ever wonder why the strongest piece is the Queen? What does she have that makes her so powerful? Is it her beauty and charm that makes men do whatever she wants. I'm not saying all women are like this, but in a male-dominated society this is what women have had to rely on to attain power. It has happened throughout history and it still happens today.

"Deh Shiva" is invoking the divine, not Lord Shiva. Guru Granth Sahib also uses names of Hindu deities to refer to the divine. They are just subjective labels, chosen to describe an attribute of Akaal. Shiva was chosen in this instance because he is the God of destruction. It fits the theme of war.

 

[aristotle]

Dasam Granth is not guru, but it is "Bir Raas". It is a book for soldiers.

Guru Hargobind Sahib had an extensive army which fought and defeated the Mughals on many occassions. Unfortunately enough, they had to manage without the Bir Ras of Dasam Granth. Also, I failed to trace the Bir Ras in Hikayataan, Shabad Hazare of DG, or the stories of Krishnavtar where the incidents and marriages of Krishna's family members are described in great detail.

I never really could get the 'Guru Granth Sahib has Shaant Ras, Dasam Granth has Bir Ras' argument. For me, a Sikh is both a saint and soldier at the same time. Did then Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj give Guruship to an ideologically incomplete Granth sans the Bir Ras, incapable of helping the 'soldier' aspect of the Sikh?

 

[techsingh]

Chill out bro. The truth is that those "porno" stories happen in the real world. IMO, the point of those stories is to teach men and women to avoid thinking with what is between their legs, and start using their intellect.

Men and women cheat on each other all the time. It isn't right, but it happens all around us. By learning about it, we are protecting ourselves from getting used or manipulated. We avoid falling into the trap of Maya.

Dasam Granth is not guru, but it is "Bir Raas". It is a book for soldiers. Chess is a war game yeah? Ever wonder why the strongest piece is the Queen? What does she have that makes her so powerful? Is it her beauty and charm that makes men do whatever she wants. I'm not saying all women are like this, but in a male-dominated society this is what women have had to rely on to attain power. It has happened throughout history and it still happens today.

"Deh Shiva" is invoking the divine, not Lord Shiva. Guru Granth Sahib also uses names of Hindu deities to refer to the divine. They are just subjective labels, chosen to describe an attribute of Akaal. Shiva was chosen in this instance because he is the God of destruction. It fits the theme of war.

How come in the DG the bir rass as you point out only relate to hindu deities. No muslims heros mentioned. Since sikhs came out of these both groups.

 

[Sherdil]

Guru Hargobind Sahib had an extensive army which fought and defeated the Mughals on many occassions. Unfortunately enough, they had to manage without the Bir Ras of Dasam Granth.

Guru Hargobind ji didn't have the Khalsa either. I believe Guru Gobind Singh ji was preparing the Sikhs for life without a living guru.

Also, I failed to trace the Bir Ras in Hikayataan, Shabad Hazarae of DG, or the stories of Krishnavtar where the incidents and marriages of Krishna's family members are described in great detail.

War is not limited to physical altercation. You can be at war with your emotions and desires. These make you easily manipulated by others. Even the hikayaats show how people blinded by lust and desire do stupid things.

Shabad Hazarae show that Akaal is supreme above all devtas and the like. Throughout Dasam Granth Guru ji reminds us that Akaal is supreme.

Even in Chaubis Avtaar, when Krishna and the other devtas are mentioned, Guru ji always states that they are subservient to Akaal. They are not worthy of worship. Even in Guru Granth Sahib ji, these devtas are mentioned, but we understand them to be literary tools employed to explain gurmat. The same holds true in Dasam Granth. They are akin to Aesop's Fables.

I never really could get the 'Guru Granth Sahib has Shaant Ras, Dasam Granth has Bir Ras' argument. For me, a Sikh is both a saint and soldier at the same time. Did then Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj give Guruship to an ideologically incomplete Granth sans the Bir Ras, incapable of helping the 'soldier' aspect of the Sikh?

Guru ji gave gurgaddi to Adi Granth and the Khalsa. These are the spiritual and temporal aspects of Sikhi. Harmandir Sahib and Akal Takht.

Dasam Granth is not guru. We don't have to read it, but it is there as a tool for those of us who want to seek Guru ji's guidance on how to conduct ourselves in temporal matters. It is not a guide for attaining mukti.

 

[Sherdil]

How come in the DG the bir rass as you point out only relate to hindu deities. No muslims heros mentioned. Since sikhs came out of these both groups.

Muslim characters are mentioned in the Charitaars and the Hikayaats. The latter was written by Guru ji in Persian. I'm not sure about the former.

 

[techsingh]

Guru Hargobind ji didn't have the Khalsa either. I believe Guru Gobind Singh ji was preparing the Sikhs for life without a living guru.



War is not limited to physical altercation. You can be at war with your emotions and desires. These make you easily manipulated by others. Even the hikayaats show how people blinded by lust and desire do stupid things.

Shabad Hazarae show that Akaal is supreme above all devtas and the like. Throughout Dasam Granth Guru ji reminds us that Akaal is supreme.

Even in Chaubis Avtaar, when Krishna and the other devtas are mentioned, Guru ji always states that they are subservient to Akaal. They are not worthy of worship. Even in Guru Granth Sahib ji, these devtas are mentioned, but we understand them to be literary tools employed to explain gurmat. The same holds true in Dasam Granth. They are akin to Aesop's Fables.


Guru ji gave gurgaddi to Adi Granth and the Khalsa. These are the spiritual and temporal aspects of Sikhi. Harmandir Sahib and Akal Takht.

Dasam Granth is not guru. We don't have to read it, but it is there as a tool for those of us who want to seek Guru ji's guidance on how to conduct ourselves in temporal matters. It is not a guide for attaining mukti.

Muslim characters are mentioned in the Charitaars and the Hikayaats. The latter was written by Guru ji in Persian. I'm not sure about the former.

But are they portrayed in the same light as the hindu avttars?

 

[Sherdil]

But are they portrayed in the same light as the hindu avttars?

No they aren't. Honestly, I don't know many Persian or Afghan stories of heroes. I say Persian and Afghan because I assume that's what you mean by Muslim Heroes. Either Guru ji wasn't familiar with any, or he didn't see it prudent to include stories praising Muslim heroes, since they were fighting the Mughals. I would think that would have the opposite effect i.e. glorifying the people who are trying to oppress you.

Although there were some Muslims that joined the Sikh cause, I'm pretty sure more than 95% of Sikhs converted from a Hindu background.

The devtas are praised in Guru Granth Sahib as well. We realize the context of those references. I really don't see how this is any different.

 

[aristotle]

Guru Hargobind ji didn't have the Khalsa either. I believe Guru Gobind Singh ji was preparing the Sikhs for life without a living guru.

Still curious on why something prepararory for the Khalsa was not included in the living Guru of the Khalsa. If DG was really meant for the Khalsa, why was it kept out of the canon of Guru Granth Sahib.

Even in Chaubis Avtaar, when Krishna and the other devtas are mentioned, Guru ji always states that they are subservient to Akaal. They are not worthy of worship.

I'm afraid that is not always the case. Many stories from the above mentioned works actually deify the so-called Avtaars, and many have little to do with any moral teachings at all.

Guru ji gave gurgaddi to Adi Granth and the Khalsa. These are the spiritual and temporal aspects of Sikhi. Harmandir Sahib and Akal Takht.

That was precisely my point. Why do you think Guru Granth Sahib does not suffice for both the spiritual and temporal. Guru Hargobind Sahib wore Miri-Piri swords on the same body, Akal Takht and Harimandir Sahib are in the same premises. Why is then spirituality and temporality torn between the Living Guru Granth Sahib and a Non-Guru Dasam Granth. Ideologically Dasam Granth differentiates between the Akaal Purakh and Kaal Purakh, a concept alien to Guru Granth Sahib and many such deviating concepts.

Dasam Granth is not guru. We don't have to read it, but it is there as a tool for those of us who want to seek Guru ji's guidance on how to conduct ourselves in temporal matters. It is not a guide for attaining mukti.

Frankly the Dasam Granth contains little advice on how to tackle temporal affairs. It does not have knowledge on how to manage your warfronts, how to negotiate with the enemy, how to manage the kingdom, or how to be a soldier or even how to understand politics and human tedencies. Even when a war is described, it has no mention of the actual mechanisms of war at all, just metaphorical verses for poetic pleasure.