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What Was The Fuss All About?

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techsingh

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Jul 14, 2012
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No they aren't. Honestly, I don't know many Persian or Afghan stories of heroes. I say Persian and Afghan because I assume that's what you mean by Muslim Heroes. Either Guru ji wasn't familiar with any, or he didn't see it prudent to include stories praising Muslim heroes, since they were fighting the Mughals. I would think that would have the opposite effect i.e. glorifying the people who are trying to oppress you.

Although there were some Muslims that joined the Sikh cause, I'm pretty sure more than 95% of Sikhs converted from a Hindu background.

The devtas are praised in Guru Granth Sahib as well. We realize the context of those references. I really don't see how this is any different.

The fight was never against muslims but with mugal or turks as they were called. Guru Hardobind shaib built a mosque for his muslim supporters.
Pir Buddhu Shah sacrificed his sons and followers for the guru's cause.
Nothing of this sort is even remotely mentioned in DG but somehow mythlogical stories have more bir ras to our high on canbis nihung brothers.

Also Remember Bhagat Namdev called muslims one eyed and hindus completely blind. SO why in the world would guru ji want to include something that leads to complete blindness? Fail.

These are only a few errors to a big list, even before diving into the contents of DG which are full of " " when gurmat is taken into account.
 

Sherdil

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Still curious on why something prepararory for the Khalsa was not included in the living Guru of the Khalsa. If DG was really meant for the Khalsa, why was it kept out of the canon of Guru Granth Sahib.
Well technically it is preparatory for the Khalsa, since Jaap Sahib is read during Khande Bateh de Pahul. It would have made sense for Guru ji to include this in Guru Granth Sahib, along with the other banis from Dasam Granth that comprise the daily Nitnem. We can only speculate as to why he did not.

It's worth noting that Dasam Granth is just a compilation of Guru Gobind Singh ji's writings. After Guru ji died, Bhai Mani Singh compiled the writings into a book, at the behest of Mata Sundari. A lot of the writings were lost during the battle of Chamkaur. It's like taking someone's scrapbook diary of poems and writings, and turning it into a book.

I would venture to say that Guru ji never got around to adding his contribution to Guru Granth Sahib. He met his death prematurely (in his 40's). Guru Tegh Bahadur ji didn't add his bani to Adi Granth either. It was added by Guru Gobind Singh ji after Guru Tegh Bahadur ji's death.

That was precisely my point. Why do you think Guru Granth Sahib does not suffice for both the spiritual and temporal. Guru Hargobind Sahib wore Miri-Piri swords on the same body, Akal Takht and Harimandir Sahib are in the same premises. Why is then spirituality and temporality torn between the Living Guru Granth Sahib and a Non-Guru Dasam Granth. Ideologically Dasam Granth differentiates between the Akaal Purakh and Kaal Purakh, a concept alien to Guru Granth Sahib and many such deviating concepts.
Dasam Granth is not the temporal authority for Sikhs. The temporal authority is the collective Khalsa. Guru Granth Sahib is the spiritual authority.

I'm afraid that is not always the case. Many stories from the above mentioned works actually deify the so-called Avtaars, and many have little to do with any moral teachings at all.
I'm not sure if we can dismiss the entire bani based solely off of those pieces. In it's entirety, I don't think Dasam Granth is off the mark. Maybe we need to keep proper and perspective in taking pieces in context of the entire granth. Take the following for example (page 644), which appears right before Chaubis Avtar:

ਪਾਂਇ ਗਹੇ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਤੁਮਰੇ ਤਬ ਤੇ ਕੋਊ ਆਂਖ ਤਰੇ ਨਹੀ ਆਨਿਯੋ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਅਨੇਕ ਕਹੈਂ ਮਤਿ ਏਕ ਨ ਮਾਨਿਯੋ ॥
पांइ गहे जब ते तुमरे तब ते कोऊ आंख तरे नही आनियो ॥ राम रहीम पुरान कुरान अनेक कहैं मति एक न मानियो ॥
O God ! the day when I caught hold of your feet, I do not bring anyone else under my sight; none other is liked by me now; the Puranas and the Quran try to know Thee by the names of Ram and Rahim and talk about you through several stories, but I do not accept any of their opinions;

ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਸਭੈ ਬਹੁ ਭੇਦ ਕਹੈ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਯੋ ॥ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਸਿਪਾਨਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਕਰਿ ਮੈ ਨ ਕਹਿਯੋ ਸਭ ਤੋਹਿ ਬਖਾਨਿਯੋ ॥੮੬੩॥
सिम्रिति सासत्र बेद सभै बहु भेद कहै हम एक न जानियो ॥ स्री असिपानि क्रिपा तुमरी करि मै न कहियो सभ तोहि बखानियो ॥८६३॥
The Simritis, Shastras and Vedas describe several mysteries of yours, but I do not agree with any of them. O sword-wielder God! This all has been described by Thy Grace, what power can I have to write all this?.863.



This appears on page 1351:


ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਉਬਾਰ ਨ ਸਕਿ ਹੈ ਜਾ ਕਰ ਨਾਮ ਰਟੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਰੁਦ੍ਰ ਸੂਰਹ ਸਸਿ ਤੇ ਬਸਿ ਕਾਲ ਸਭੈ ਹੈ ॥੧
राम रहीम उबार न सकि है जा कर नाम रटै है ॥ ब्रहमा बिशन रुद्र सूरह ससि ते बसि काल सभै है ॥१
You cannot be saved by repeating the Names of Ram and Rahim, Brahma, Vishnu Shiva, Sun and Moon, all are subject to the power of Death.1.

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਸਭੈ ਮਤ ਜਾਕਹ ਨੇਤਿ ਕਹੈ ਹੈ ॥
बेद पुरान कुरान सभै मत जाकह नेति कहै है ॥
Vedas, Puranas and holy Quran and all religious system proclaim Him as indescribeable,2.

ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਫਨਿੰਦ੍ਰ ਮੁਨਿੰਦ੍ਰ ਕਲਪ ਬਹੁ ਧਯਾਵਤ ਧਯਾਨ ਨ ਐ ਹੈ ॥੨॥
इंद्र फनिंद्र मुनिंद्र कलप बहु धयावत धयान न ऐ है ॥२॥
Indra, Sheshnaga and the Supreme sage meditated on Him for ages, but could not visualize Him.2.

ਜਾ ਕਰ ਰੂਪ ਰੰਗ ਨਹਿ ਜਨਿਯਤ ਸੋ ਕਿਮ ਸਯਾਮ ਕਹੈ ਹੈ ॥
जा कर रूप रंग नहि जनियत सो किम सयाम कहै है ॥
He, whose form and colour are not, how can he be called black?

ਛੁਟਹੋ ਕਾਲ ਜਾਲ ਤੇ ਤਬ ਹੀ ਤਾਹਿ ਚਰਨ ਲਪਟੈ ਹੈ ॥੩॥੨॥
छुटहो काल जाल ते तब ही ताहि चरन लपटै है ॥३॥२॥
You can only be liberated from the noose of Death, when you cling to His feet.3.2.

ਮੁਖ ਭਗ 9
मुख भग 9
CHAPTER 9

੩੩ ਸਵੈਯੇ
३३ सवैये
THIRTY-THREE SWAYYAS

ੴ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹ ॥
ੴ स्री वाहिगुरू जी की फतह ॥
The Lord is One and the Victory is of the Lord.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮੁਖਵਾਕ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹੀ ੧੦॥
स्री मुखवाक पातिशाही १०॥
The utterance from the holy mouth of the Tenth King :

ਸਵੈਯਾ ॥
सवैया ॥
SWAYYA

ਜਾਗਤਿ ਜੋਤ ਜਪੈ ਨਿਸ ਬਾਸੁਰ ਏਕ ਬਿਨਾ ਮਨ ਨੈਕ ਨ ਆਨੈ ॥ ਪੂਰਨ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤ ਸਜੈ ਬ੍ਰਤ ਗੋਰ ਮੜੀ ਮਟ ਭੂਲ ਨ ਮਾਨੈ ॥
जागति जोत जपै निस बासुर एक बिना मन नैक न आनै ॥ पूरन प्रेम प्रतीत सजै ब्रत गोर मड़ी मट भूल न मानै ॥
He is the true Khalsa (Sikh), who remembers the ever-awakened Light throughout night and day and does not bring anyone else in the mind; he practices his vow with whole heated affection and does not believe in even by oversight, the graves, Hindu monuments and monasteries;

ਤੀਰਥ ਦਾਨ ਦਇਆ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮ ਏਕ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਹ ਏਕ ਪਛਾਨੈ ॥ ਪੂਰਨ ਜੋਤ ਜਗੈ ਘਟ ਮੈ ਤਬ ਖਾਲਸ ਤਾਹਿ ਨਖਾਲਸ ਜਾਨੈ ॥੧॥
तीरथ दान दइआ तप संजम एक बिना नह एक पछानै ॥ पूरन जोत जगै घट मै तब खालस ताहि नखालस जानै ॥१॥
He does not recognize anyone else except One Lord, not even the bestowal of charities, performance of merciful acts, austerities and restraint on pilgrim-stations; the perfect light of the Lord illuminates his heart, then consider him as the immaculate Khalsa.1.

ਸੱਤਿ ਸਦੈਵ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਤਬ੍ਰਤ ਆਦਿ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਅਗਾਧ ਅਜੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਦਾਨ ਦਯਾ ਦਮ ਸੰਜਮ ਨੇਮ ਜੱਤ ਬ੍ਰਤ ਸੀਲ ਸੁਬ੍ਰਿਤ ਅਬੈ ਹੈ ॥
स्ति सदैव सरूप सतब्रत आदि अनादि अगाध अजै है ॥ दान दया दम संजम नेम ज्त ब्रत सील सुब्रित अबै है ॥
He is ever the Truth-incarnate, Pledged to truth, the Primal One Begnningless, Unfathomable and Unconquerable; He is comprehended thourgh His qualities of Charitableness, Mercifulness, Austerity, Restraint, Observances, Kindliness and Generosity;

ਆਦਿ ਅਨੀਲ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਅਨਾਹਦ ਆਪਿ ਅਦ੍ਵੈਖ ਅਭੇਵ ਅਭੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਰੂਪ ਅਰੂਪ ਅਰੇਖ ਜਰਾਰਦਨ ਦੀਨ ਦਯਾਲ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲ ਭਏ ਹੈ ॥੨॥
आदि अनील अनादि अनाहद आपि अद्वैख अभेव अभै है ॥ रूप अरूप अरेख जरारदन दीन दयाल क्रिपाल भए है ॥२॥
He is Primal, Blemishless, Beginningless, Maliceless, Limitless, Indiscriminate and Fearless; He is the Formless, Markless, Lord Protector of the lowly and ever compassionate.2.

So then how do we reconcile these pieces with the ones you have mentioned? I don't think disregarding the entire Granth is the solution. Perhaps context and intent need to be taken into account, in order to establish a common denominator. Just my thoughts.

Frankly the Dasam Granth contains little advice on how to tackle temporal affairs. It does not have knowledge on how to manage your warfronts, how to negotiate with the enemy, how to manage the kingdom, or how to be a soldier or even how to understand politics and human tedencies. Even when a war is described, it has no mention of the actual mechanisms of war at all, just metaphorical verses for poetic pleasure.
Temporal advice in terms of interpersonal relationships. I don't think Dasam Granth was intended to be all of the above. To me it is an unfinished work, an homage at best. Had Bhai Mani Singh ji not compiled the Dasam Granth, then I believe these writings (the uncontroversial ones especially) would have faded into obscurity. At the end of the day, Dasam Granth is not our Guru so we are not obligated to read it. But then again, I don't think relegating it to the position of "That other book that should not be mentioned" is the right move either.
 

Ishna

Writer
SPNer
May 9, 2006
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I would venture to say that Guru ji never got around to adding his contribution to Guru Granth Sahib. He met his death prematurely (in his 30's).

When did Guru Sahib give gurgaddi to the Granth Sahib? I never really thought about this question. Was he on his deathbed at the time?
 

Sherdil

Writer
SPNer
Jan 19, 2014
438
874
When did Guru Sahib give gurgaddi to the Granth Sahib? I never really thought about this question. Was he on his deathbed at the time?

I think it was on his deathbed. I'm not sure. BTW, he was in early 40's, not in his early 30's, when he died. 41 according to wiki.
 

Abneet

SPNer
Apr 7, 2013
281
312
You mention quite a few babas in your posts....

He intimated that Amrit vela was all the time, a concept I actually embrace
He questioned Amrit Sanchar as having been corrupted through time, again, something I also question
If you actually read through his statements, most of them make perfect sense, albeit they can be easily be misconstrued to turn him into some sort of heretic, but then give me heretics anyday, at least they question, and keep questioning, rather than the self satisfied smug and grasping Babas who just tell people what they want to hear.

I never said I was a clear follower of a Baba haha or I would already tell you guys 0:) But I look up to Sant's lifestyle as an inspiration that have incredible spiritual enlightenment. I like to get advice and discuss with Sants. GGS mentions a lot about being in Company of Saints and learning from them.....
 

aristotle

SPNer
May 10, 2010
1,156
2,653
Ancient Greece
I would venture to say that Guru ji never got around to adding his contribution to Guru Granth Sahib. He met his death prematurely (in his 40's). Guru Tegh Bahadur ji didn't add his bani to Adi Granth either. It was added by Guru Gobind Singh ji after Guru Tegh Bahadur ji's death.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji added his father's writings to the Guru Granth Sahib, but he never thought about adding his own to the same Granth?

I'm not sure if we can dismiss the entire bani based solely off of those pieces. In it's entirety, I don't think Dasam Granth is off the mark. Maybe we need to keep proper and perspective in taking pieces in context of the entire granth.

That is when you take the whole contents of the Dasam Granth as a single Granth when we know that it was compiled into a single volume only atleast after the times of Bhai Sukha Singh and Bhai Mehtab Singh, it had existed in the form of different books until then.
 
Jul 18, 2007
147
456
London
The truth is most do not understand Gurbani from our treasure chest of jewels, Guru Granth Sahib Ji, that they go and detract their efforts and join in the debate of other works again that 99% of do not understand either.

Gurbani creates a complete being for humanity, there is more than enough content to keep us occupied for a life time and improve ourselves, then we have our un-distorted history of sacrifice and Sikhs going through very difficult times just to survive which seems to be miracle-less compared to the stories further back in time around our Guru's. It teaches the stark reality of life and how to deal with it.

Any arguments that it only creates a saint are flawed, people can read whatever they choose to and if that makes them a better person so be it. But to enforce these separate pieces of works to be one and install alongside the original source and make it out to be incomplete without it, is a disillusion.
 
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