Charitropakhyan Who Calls Charitropakiyan Gurbani? Jathedar Tarlochan Singh

[vikram9274]

Re: Video: Who Says Dasam Granth/Charitropakiyan is Gurbani?: Giani Tarlochan Singh

Truth is that the guy asking the questions doesn't know anything about the Dasam granth. "Based of what i saw on the internet" or "what i heard in the internet". Dude read the Dasam Granth, make your own interpretation. I have read it and I feel that it is a collection of stories (true or fake i don't know) or situations that Guru Ji has summarized to teach us lessons. He sounds like some uneducated guy who saw i video and is now asking questions. Do your research, read the text, and analyze. Make your own decision.

 

[International Akaali]

Re: Video: Who Says Dasam Granth/Charitropakiyan is Gurbani?: Giani Tarlochan Singh

Vikram singh i dont mean to be rude or anything, do you think your some bhramgiani judging if he knows anything about dasam granth or not. what if he did his researched, read the text and analyzed and made his decision that dasam granth teaches different ways of doing tricks.

You have done your research? Tarlochan Singh lied flat out, you said in your previous post you know tarlochan singh well so it is not a surprise you are supporting him. If you are so against the internet what are you doing online? Can you not research, read text and analyze online? Reading dasam granth wont tell you if tarlochan singh went to dyalpura and made statements in favor of dasam granth violating the hukamnama he mentioned. Videos are there at then end of part two you can see he lied. It is his own words.

Where does it say in dasam granth that, guru granth sahib ji should be parkash beside it? this is panthic issues that was talked about it. People like you have started making their own interpertations and then started going away from the line of gurmat. Stop making your own interpretations because you are doing maha paap by saying this is guru sahibs bani. You people say mantree bhoopat sambadh that raja is saying this not guru gobind singh. Then how is it guru gobind singhs bani. Then you say it is pakiyan, meaning old stories rewritten to give understanding, still not guru gobind singhs bani. Please answer this i am waiting for an answer to this question. What is mantree bhoopat sambadh? raja? how is it guru gobind singhs bani.

 

[International Akaali]

HAHAHAHAHA!!! The biggest problem with that video is that the guy asking the questions sound illiterate. He himself is asking questions based off of cd's he has heard and videos he has seen. Second point = this proves that we need to educate people about the dasam granth. Half the people just know what they know based off of videos and cd's that are obviously biased. The Akal Takhat needs to make a committee of 5-10 people who will analyze the text and summarize per se. I personally find it to be a collection of stories and common human problems that Guru Ji has assessed as well as a few other things. The truth is that this has become such a big issue when Darshan Singh and all these others who now oppose it were praising the Dasam Granth less than 10 years ago. They sang shabads from it and did katha on it. Why the sudden change? Did they suddenly realize one night that this bani can't be true or legit?

I guess they did. whats wrong with that?

 

[spnadmin]

This may answer some questions. Here are 3 audio files, copies from another thread. The Download option does not work, so you will have to use the player.

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Guru Granth / Guru Panth & Takht's

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Why did kirtan from 'DG' before?

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Why not touch this issue during Akal Takht seva?
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Source is Dasam Granth | Guru Granth Sahib (GGS) Web Academy
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[Admin]

I think after the introduction of internet around 15years or so, all these translations were made freely and readily available for simple Sikh Sangat and this led to the awareness about the intent and content of such scriptures. The time for blind parrot reading and feeding is gone... its time for self-contemplation... there is nothing wrong in setting things correct... just because he did a about turn does not mean that his concerns should be taken lightly... What he did is only a person who has let go his self-ego can do... this is most commendable as per my understanding of Gurbani... What Prof. Darshan has been suggestig us, the simple Sikh Sangat, is to read and understand the intent and content of the scripture(s) in dispute... and then decide for ourselves...

The truth is that the next generation of Sikhs is not going to take what just about any other Sant Baba preaches about these scriptures... they are going to ask questions and we the present generation has to be ready to reply to these questions... we better be ready for answers otherwise Sikhi is going to become what has become of Islam...

Is there any harm is reading and understanding the content and intent of Sikh scriptures?
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[vikram9274]

I agree with you, but he has probaably read it before. Seeing as how he did katha on it and irtan from it, he had understand of it. How did his understanding change in just one day? I think that people should read the dasam granth and decide for themselves. Not listen to cd's or youtube videos, which will unoubtely contort certain aspects to be biased. He was not the common sikh because he did katha from the dasam granth as well as kirtan. he supported it and now he is completely against it. My question is, why the sudden change? If you have gyan of one bani and you support it and do katha on it, how does all your gyan change all of a sudden?

 

[spnadmin]

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Why did kirtan from 'DG' before?

 

[vikram9274]

I guess they did. whats wrong with that?

It is just fishy...you do katha from a Bani and do kirtan from it for years. Then within a year you are outspoken of it? The fact that he did katha from it means that he studied it and actually had knowledge of it. Why the sudden change in all of that? We have all these people now who not only question the Bani but the akal takhat as well as other fundamentals of our Religion. I am not a fundamentalist who is against questioning, but I jusrt find it a bit interesting that he went from staunch support of the Bani to complete opposition. I think that many do it to get attention or divide the panth. If we wanted to question things, we can question everything. We were not there for any of it. Tomorrow people will argue that the SGGS is false or that Guru Nanak was nothing more than a common man and that all saakhis are just made up stories. They will say that everything is made up. That is the problem. On top of it, the common sikh hasn't read the SGGS, much less the Dasam Granth. Its a bunch of people with views arguing, and people basing their opinions off of youtube videos, radio interviews, or newspaper articles. We should know by now that all of this is biased. This is why i think that the Jathedars are going about all of this the wrong way. They should encourage the debate and come to a conclusion of which side is right. Let the Sikh population make its decision by hearing both sides of the argument. Put Darshan Singh, Kala Afghana, Dilgeer on a platform and on the have Sikh Scholars in support of the Dasam Granth and let them at it. Keep it organized, televise it. That way their is no biased. Send DVD's to all gurdwaras and have them pass them out or show them. I mean, if we truly believe that the Dasam Granth is a bani then we should not be scared to let them debate about it.

 

[vikram9274]

Re: Video: Who Says Dasam Granth/Charitropakiyan is Gurbani?: Giani Tarlochan Singh

Vikram singh i dont mean to be rude or anything, do you think your some bhramgiani judging if he knows anything about dasam granth or not. what if he did his researched, read the text and analyzed and made his decision that dasam granth teaches different ways of doing tricks.

You have done your research? Tarlochan Singh lied flat out, you said in your previous post you know tarlochan singh well so it is not a surprise you are supporting him. If you are so against the internet what are you doing online? Can you not research, read text and analyze online? Reading dasam granth wont tell you if tarlochan singh went to dyalpura and made statements in favor of dasam granth violating the hukamnama he mentioned. Videos are there at then end of part two you can see he lied. It is his own words.

Where does it say in dasam granth that, guru granth sahib ji should be parkash beside it? this is panthic issues that was talked about it. People like you have started making their own interpertations and then started going away from the line of gurmat. Stop making your own interpretations because you are doing maha paap by saying this is guru sahibs bani. You people say mantree bhoopat sambadh that raja is saying this not guru gobind singh. Then how is it guru gobind singhs bani. Then you say it is pakiyan, meaning old stories rewritten to give understanding, still not guru gobind singhs bani. Please answer this i am waiting for an answer to this question. What is mantree bhoopat sambadh? raja? how is it guru gobind singhs bani.

Who are you to say it isn't. One can interpret it as a series of situations. Not every bani has to written in the same style of SGGS. Their are many types of writings. And like I said, I think someone who goes around watching youtube videos and makes his opinions off of already biased views, has biased views. He clearly states that he has seen videos and Cd's, well he should read the Dasam Granth and then make up his mind. Analyze it carefully, which will take a lot of time ofcourse, but that is the only way to form an opinion about the matter because everyone else gives biased views. People contort certain lines and chapters. As for the hukamnama, I disagree with all that in the first place. I think that they should hold a debate between the likes of Darshan Singh, Kala Afghana, Dilgeer, and Sikh scholars in support of Dasam Granth. I have stated time and time before that I do not view excommunication as a means of sorting this out. I believe that we should let them debate in a civilized and organized manner. Televise it, send dvd's to gurdwaras around the world. Let the Sikh Sangat make it's own decision. As for prakash, I am sure that Guru Gobind Singh, or any of the Gurus would not mind if someone sat next to them. These are dunyavee things that guru does not care for. Whether the Dasam Granth is legit or not, I know without a doubt that the same gurus who traveled by foot, had stones thrown at them, went through many hardships, would not care if someone sat next to them. We are making a big issue of all this and are showing just how attached we are to manukhi matters. These are trivial matters in the big scheme; AKAL PURAKH, the one who is everywhere. Waheguru is looking down upon us with shame as we tear apart our religion over these matters. So I believe we should let them debate, discuss, and come to a conclussion. The fact that the Jathedars do not want to hold a debate only shows weakness to me. If they are convinced that the Dasam Granth is the Bani of Dasmesh Pita then they should have no reservatinos about a debate. And for those who say it will give Darshan Singh a platform to spew his views, well that is what the Scholars in support of the Dasam Granth will be their for.

AND AS FOR INTERPRETATION, everything you know about our religion or the SGGS is based off of interpretation. You were not their when all these events took place, or heard the Guru's. IT IS ALL INTERPRETATION MY FRIEND. REMEMBER THAT!

 

[satnamr46]

Vikram9274 ji, Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
I think your insinuation that Prof. Darshan Singh Khalsa ji has changed his perspective on the so called Dasam Granth in one day is totally misconceived.Prof ji is a deeply reflective person who holds unbounded
reverence for Guru Granth Sahib, our only GURU.It is gratifying to see that he has evolved while the majority of the sant babas and so-called jathedars with big egos have little knowledge of Gurbani and are in their positions to do the bidding of their political masters. Your assertion that people rejecting dasam granth based on ther listening to cd's and you tube videos could not be ****her from truth. I firmly believe
that the stunchest of dasm granthis have inadequate knowledge of GURU GRANTH SAHIB and dasam granth. For if they were conversant with GURMAT, they would find all the answers in GURU GRANTH SAHIB and would not exhort and coerce their sikh brethern to fall into the abyss of sensuality,karamkands and untruths which the
controversial granth espouses.Prof, Darshan Singh is not the only one to have changed his views, I have and lots of us have done so.we live in an age of information and can no longer be held hostage to connivivg priests with their ready made SANKAT MOCHAN philosophy. Sikhs are waking up and are enjoying the ever flowing LOVE for TRUTH
that oozes from every word of GURU GRANTH SAHIB.KHAVOH KHARCHOH RAL MIL BHAI>TOTT NA AAVAY <WADHADO JAAYEE.
Respectfully,
Satnam Singh Randhawa

 

[vikram9274]

Vikram9274 ji, Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
I think your insinuation that Prof. Darshan Singh Khalsa ji has changed his perspective on the so called Dasam Granth in one day is totally misconceived.Prof ji is a deeply reflective person who holds unbounded
reverence for Guru Granth Sahib, our only GURU.It is gratifying to see that he has evolved while the majority of the sant babas and so-called jathedars with big egos have little knowledge of Gurbani and are in their positions to do the bidding of their political masters. Your assertion that people rejecting dasam granth based on ther listening to cd's and you tube videos could not be ****her from truth. I firmly believe
that the stunchest of dasm granthis have inadequate knowledge of GURU GRANTH SAHIB and dasam granth. For if they were conversant with GURMAT, they would find all the answers in GURU GRANTH SAHIB and would not exhort and coerce their sikh brethern to fall into the abyss of sensuality,karamkands and untruths which the
controversial granth espouses.Prof, Darshan Singh is not the only one to have changed his views, I have and lots of us have done so.we live in an age of information and can no longer be held hostage to connivivg priests with their ready made SANKAT MOCHAN philosophy. Sikhs are waking up and are enjoying the ever flowing LOVE for TRUTH
that oozes from every word of GURU GRANTH SAHIB.KHAVOH KHARCHOH RAL MIL BHAI>TOTT NA AAVAY <wadhado jaayee.="">
Respectfully,
Satnam Singh Randhawa

Sir I agree with you that SGGS is our guru, but where we say that we have a right to question (which I think we do), we must also accept that there is nothing wrong with the dasam granth being a Bani. Should we stop reading everything other than the SGGS? Why not read it? Why not understand it? Why not apply those parts that one finds worthy to our lives? We send our kids to college do we not? They learn science, math, among other things. Why not learn from other scriptures. I believe we should question, but not outright say that something is wrong. I am not against Darshan singh, I believe that this is all being handled the wrong way. We must debate the topic, but we should base our opinions off of both sides of the debate or by reading the Dasam Granth and making our own decisions. as i stated in many other posts, i believe that the Jathedars, rather than excommunicating, should hold a televised debate. Where those who do not support the dasam granth (Darshan Singh, Kala Afghana, etc) and Sikh Scholars that do, can debate. For every arguement, present a counter arguement. We listen watch these videos and listen to the cd's or interviews, and many things are manipulated. This way, you get presented with both sides of the argument and can make a decision .They should make dvds of the debate and mail them to gurdwaras. Most Sikhs have not even read the SGGS in its entirety much less the Dasam Granth. They need to be educated. By holding a CIVILIZED and well organized debate, we can get both sides of the argument, as well as educate the common Sikh.


Would you give up believing in science, math, and everything else and base all knowledge off of the SGGS? To live in the world and make a living, not everyone can do that, actually almost everyone can't do that. We watch the news, we read books, go to school, etc. The Dasam Granth may be the writing of Dasmesh Pitah, and if it is, that is great. Bottom line is that the SGGS is our GURU. I am strictly against the belief that Dasam Granth is our Guru, but there is nothing wrong with treating it with respect or studying it (it contains bani's that are a part of NITNEM). We should respect all books, they provide us with knowledge.

</wadhado>

 

[spnadmin]

Sir,

If we revere Sri Guru Gobind Singh then we revere Sri Guru Granth Sahib as banee, nothing else. His words are the words below, not mine or the words of anyone else:
Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai Guru Manyo Granth

If you believe that he carried the jyote of Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji, then you believe that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is the only guru.That Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj is Banee and nothing else. What is there to debate about this?

Those who have taken up a debate with the proponents of Dasam Granth have the exact concern that is not so veiled in your message. Proponents would like to see a situation where Dasam Granth has equal standing with Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Their fervor is being fueled by political interests that see an opportunity to tie a debate to vested agendas. A debate spells ultimately votes for the Badal family which for some time now has been manipulating this issue. Let's wake up and take off our blindfolds! They would love a debate. Since they control the jathedars, they would win any debate. And so would their sycophants, political and religious.<object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://fpdownload.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=7,0,0,0" height="24" width="290"><embed swliveconnect="default" src="http://www.ggsacademy.com/modules/swftools/shared/1pixelout/player.swf" wmode="transparent" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" scale="showall" quality="autohigh" loop="false" menu="false" play="true" name="" base="http://www.ggswebacademy.com/" allowfullscreen="true" salign="tl" flashvars="autostart=no&loop=no&soundFile=http://www.mediafire.com/file/y0ymdlmwnyn/guru-granth-or-guru-panth.mp3" allowscriptaccess="sameDomain" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" height="24" width="290"> </object>

Guru Granth / Guru Panth & Takht's

 

[satnamr46]

Vikram 9274 ji.I concur with you that there is no harm in reading a variety of information ensuing from different sources.That is how we enrich our lives.But as sikhs ,our spirituals dimensions have been outlined for us in the holy SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI.THe tenth GURU in his wisdom decreed us to follow it,and we all agree to it being an authentic decree.Nowhere has he decreed that the so called dasam granth be revered ,read or parkaashed alongside DHAN DHAN SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI.
AS far as the manipulation of the cd's and videos is concerned, it is no longer a secret that the Rochester Gurdwara Keertan cd of prof. Darshan Singh ji was tampered by Lamba and company. Lamba borrowed it from sardar Makhan Singh ,tampered it and went around denouncing Prof. Darshan Singh as Guru Nindak.I think it is not Prof. Darshan Singh ,but these so called champions of The khalsa cause who are doing a disservice to sikhism.they resort to trickery,machievallian machinations and other learnings that they have gleaned from the so called dasam granth.They should remember the Gurbani dictum: chaatree-in changee-aan avar sianap kit, Nanak naam samaaml tu badhaa shutay jit.
Respectfully
Satnam Singh Randhawa

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Video: Who Says Dasam Granth/Charitropakiyan is Gurbani?: Giani Tarlochan Singh

Two threads have been merged. They relate to the same video series. After waiting to see if the discussion would take off in 2 directions, it became clear that they did not. Thanks, Narayanjot Kaur

 

[vikram9274]

But that is why you televise the debate. How can a televised debate be controlled by the jathedars? If the media is there, and sangat is there, they can not edit out only certain portions. Because sangat too will probably record on cameras. And it is not simply a matter of giving it equal standing. I do not care if some does prakash of Dasam Granth next to SGGS. I am sure that none of the ten Gurus would care either. It is the belief that matters. If you believe SGGS to be your guru then what does it matter if there is another Bani next to it. I wouldn't care if they put the Quran next to the SGGS. We are taught to respect all religions aren't we? These are trivial things that we are turning into huge arguments. But that is just it, where does he say you can't? I am sure that Dasmesh Pitah did not make the millions of rules that we have now on how to carry out prakash of SGGS or how to rest it and all that. I just think that these are, in the big scheme of things, trivial. The point is that SGGS is your guru, you try to apply the teaching within it to your life. All this conflict is not worth it. Like i said, I do not think that the same Guru's who went through so many hardships, would have minded if someone sat next to them, or even if they sat on the floor while everyone else sat on a higher platform. We have become materialistic. I am not saying we should treat the SGGS with disrespect and just keep it on the floor or any of that but i Don't think it matters if another bani is next to it. That is just my opinion.

 

[International Akaali]

Vikram i just have one question for you. Is your Guru Mantree?

Mantree Bhoopat Sambadh? How is this gurus bani?

Just answer this question I will be greatful because it is you who has read and had deep understanding of dasam granth from the sounds of language you are using. You are calling everyone else agyani. Please share some of that gyan with me because i am an internet tiger as well

 

[vikram9274]

Vikram i just have one question for you. Is your Guru Mantree?

Mantree Bhoopat Sambadh? How is this gurus bani?

Just answer this question I will be greatful because it is you who has read and had deep understanding of dasam granth from the sounds of language you are using. You are calling everyone else agyani. Please share some of that gyan with me because i am an internet tiger as well

Sir i have not said i have more or less knowledge than you or called you agyani. But have you read Sri Dasam Granth and analyzed all of it? If so, then you are obviously more knowledgeable and I apologize. But it is a style of writing. Even in Adi Granth, there are different style of writing. Let me ask you something, is Sant Kabeer your guru? Or Sheikh Farid? His writing is in SGGS. Is he your guru? Your point is completely invalid and your question is baseless. There are many types of writings, many styles.

 

[spnadmin]

Trivial? vikram 9724 ji I am astounded. :welcome:

Any debate with International Akaali ji will be far more interesting than any conversation with me. So I for now I will be concise. :shutup:

This debate is so trivial that the political arm of the SGPC/Badal conglomerate has told Professor Darshan Singh ji not to come to India on December 5. And the religious arm of the conglomerate, the jathedar of Akaal Takht, in alignment with his advocate, Mr. Lamba, and jathedars friendly to him, have not withdrawn the "edict" and continue with charges of heretical teaching. That looks like some fairly wicked gamesmanship to me. :shock:

 

[satnamr46]

Vikram 9274 ji
Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh
I do not think your advocacy of doing the parkaash of anoother granth and phillipingly naive comment about Quran would sit well with most sikhs. Nanak's Panth is a nirmal Panth. His God
loves all and is not vengeful.Nanak exhorts us to shape ourselves in the image of our loving lord-be caring and compassionate. He exhorts us to be ever awake of the poisonous and destructive nature or the five thieves. Guru Nanak does not make tall claims about his being the son of god or a special messenger. He associates with the poor and the downtrodden. He calls himself a neech, a jan. Remember we must;HOUMAIN NAAVAIN NAAL VIRODH HAI , DOVAIN NA VASSAY IK THAIN. The gurus gave us A Gaadi Rah,pulled us away from Bipran Ki Reet. Now what you are suggesting is to open the portals of every other philosophy to inundate the sikhs . As if we need more dilution!
Respectfully,

Satnam Singh Randhawa

 

[vikram9274]

Vikram 9274 ji
Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh
I do not think your advocacy of doing the parkaash of anoother granth and phillipingly naive comment about Quran would sit well with most sikhs. Nanak's Panth is a nirmal Panth. His God
loves all and is not vengeful.Nanak exhorts us to shape ourselves in the image of our loving lord-be caring and compassionate. He exhorts us to be ever awake of the poisonous and destructive nature or the five thieves. Guru Nanak does not make tall claims about his being the son of god or a special messenger. He associates with the poor and the downtrodden. He calls himself a neech, a jan. Remember we must;HOUMAIN NAAVAIN NAAL VIRODH HAI , DOVAIN NA VASSAY IK THAIN. The gurus gave us A Gaadi Rah,pulled us away from Bipran Ki Reet. Now what you are suggesting is to open the portals of every other philosophy to inundate the sikhs . As if we need more dilution!
Respectfully,

Satnam Singh Randhawa

Well that is just it isn't it, I don't care what other Sikhs think, for I only try to apply the Guru's lessons to my life and views. Guru has told me to respect others and their religions, so i would only be overjoyed if a muslim set his quran next to the SGGS and prayed with me. In my heart I will pray only to Akal Purakh, I will only have Guru in my mind and Heart. So why would I care if there is a Quran next to SGGS? Like I said, SGGS is the next in line of ten gurus, if they would not care if someone sat next to them, or even above them, then either would SGGS. This is my view on that matter.

Trivial? vikram 9724 ji I am astounded. :welcome:

Any debate with International Akaali ji will be far more interesting than any conversation with me. So I for now I will be concise. :shutup:

This debate is so trivial that the political arm of the SGPC/Badal conglomerate has told Professor Darshan Singh ji not to come to India on December 5. And the religious arm of the conglomerate, the jathedar of Akaal Takht, in alignment with his advocate, Mr. Lamba, and jathedars friendly to him, have not withdrawn the "edict" and continue with charges of heretical teaching. That looks like some fairly wicked gamesmanship to me. :shock:

Yes I do believe that the matter of prakash is trivial. My interpretation of the lessons in SGGS lead me to believe that these are materialistic and trivial matters. And once again, the Jathedars and their political motivations go against trying to resolve this issue and only cause more controversy. They are doing the exact opposite and only adding to the fire. All of them are incompetent.