Charitropakhyan Who Calls Charitropakiyan Gurbani? Jathedar Tarlochan Singh

[spnadmin]

The gurus gave us A Gaadi Rah,pulled us away from Bipran Ki Reet. Now what you are suggesting is to open the portals of every other philosophy to inundate the sikhs . As if we need more dilution!
Respectfully,

Satnam Singh Randhawa

Satnam ji

Thanks for your beautiful words! But is that not part of the very foundation of this debate? To open the portals of every other philosophy in order to dilute the significance of Guru Granth Sahib? Has that not been the basis of the controversy over Bachitar Natak since 1902? Now we get into the historical aspect of this "strange drama."

 

[satnamr46]

Vikram 9274 ji
Waheguru ji ka khalssa
Waheguru ji ke fateh
you can draw whatever conclusions you want.I only bow to Sri Guru Granth SAhib Ji . And i do not stop you from worshipping whatever you want . However I do not subscribe to turning a gurdwara into a Gobind Sadan .Guru Granth Sahib Is my GUR POORAA.It gets me away from karam kaands,superstitions.It makes my life simple and enjoyable.Kirat karo ,naam jappo and wand chhako.it tells me : hasandiaan, khedandiaan, painandiaan, khaavandiaan ,whichay hovai mukat. The Guru ,my only support gives me a Juggat. Thanks.
Respectfully
Satnam Singh Randhawa

 

[vikram9274]

Vikram 9274 ji
Waheguru ji ka khalssa
Waheguru ji ke fateh
you can draw whatever conclusions you want.I only bow to Sri Guru Granth SAhib Ji . And i do not stop you from worshipping whatever you want . However I do not subscribe to turning a gurdwara into a Gobind Sadan .Guru Granth Sahib Is my GUR POORAA.It gets me away from karam kaands,superstitions.It makes my life simple and enjoyable.Kirat karo ,naam jappo and wand chhako.it tells me : hasandiaan, khedandiaan, painandiaan, khaavandiaan ,whichay hovai mukat. The Guru ,my only support gives me a Juggat. Thanks.
Respectfully
Satnam Singh Randhawa

Sir i have said repeatedly that Guru Granth Sahib is my guru. A gurdwara is the house of guru (Guru da Dawar). Guru Gabind Singh was the tenth Guru. Do not forget that. Waheguru is everywhere sir. The main point is to worship Waheguru, the Akal Purakh. For me, Waheguru is above even the SGGS. I find just as much peace in my car when I am reciting the name of Waheguru as I do in any gurdwara. To be honest, I find more peace in my car or at my house because in today's day and age, most gurdwaras have become places of chugli nindya and are surrounded by controversy and political talk.

 

[satnamr46]

Vikram Ji
Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh
I am indeed very happy that you feel the presence of the lord and could not agree with you more that our gudwaras have oftentimes been the centres of squabbles and monstrous Manmat.AS sikhs we are required to remember God oothat,baidhat,sovat jaagat,but also to fight oppression both within and without.All the Gurus did . They did not shy away from stating the Truth and propagating it ,even at the cost of their lives. No compromises.Says Gurbani; It marg per dhireejai,Sir deejay kaan(h) na keejay. While we have a duty to further our moral growth, we also are expected to fight Manmatt.Fighting this Manmatt is what prof. Darshan Singh is doing. It is not going to be easy. His very life is on the line.I compliment him for keeing his cool under these circumstances . I believe his strength comes from Gubaani which his very being is suffused with . May the Guru give him strength to keep his faith.Lovingly,
Satnam Singh Randhawa

 

[spnadmin]

Sir i have said repeatedly that Guru Granth Sahib is my guru. A gurdwara is the house of guru (Guru da Dawar). Guru Gabind Singh was the tenth Guru. Do not forget that. Waheguru is everywhere sir. The main point is to worship Waheguru, the Akal Purakh. For me, Waheguru is above even the SGGS. I find just as much peace in my car when I am reciting the name of Waheguru as I do in any gurdwara. To be honest, I find more peace in my car or at my house because in today's day and age, most gurdwaras have become places of chugli nindya and are surrounded by controversy and political talk.

vkiram9274 ji

In a way you are making a quick retreat without making any retreat whatsoever.

Your focus on Waheguru, your need to find peace, and your experience that gurdwaras have become placs of controversy and political talk are a very different kind of reply. Contrast that to some of your earlier statements. They were more confrontational.

Good that we can agree that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is our guru. Sri Guru Gobind Singh may have believed he ended all controversy in 1699. That seems more logical reason why he would not be interested in discussing the matter any further. I refer to your comments about our gurus being unlikely to find the discussion of Dasam Granth to have any merit. ("Like i said, I do not think that the same Guru's who went through so many hardships, would have minded if someone sat next to them, or even if they sat on the floor while everyone else sat on a higher platform.")

And yes -- in the scheme of eternity - parkash of Sri Guru Granth Sahib cannot be fathomed by the human mind because the human mind cannot fathom eternity. Not that I agree that makes this controversy trivial. The operative words are aad sach, jugaad sach, hosi bi sach. So I believe that Guru Nanak has resolved that part of your dilemma, and cleared any doubts.


We should keep in mind that December 5 is not too far off. It makes sense that this is a time to throw some hard punches. For example, some have stated i.e., Professor Darshan Singh made his money from Dasam Granth, and now is a preaching hypocrite, nothing more than a materialistic money grubber. Why did he suddenly change his mind, and so forth?

There are many people who are sitting on the fence, have doubts about their understanding of Dasam Granth, don't know what to think, have not made up their minds, wish the discussion would just go away, hate it when their inner peace is disturbed, etc. etc. -- they are the very people who are supposed to be persuaded by watching these punches thrown, outside of the rules of debate. Not that I am suggesting that you are doing that.

 

[vikram9274]

Vikram Ji
Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh
I am indeed very happy that you feel the presence of the lord and could not agree with you more that our gudwaras have oftentimes been the centres of squabbles and monstrous Manmat.AS sikhs we are required to remember God oothat,baidhat,sovat jaagat,but also to fight oppression both within and without.All the Gurus did . They did not shy away from stating the Truth and propagating it ,even at the cost of their lives. No compromises.Says Gurbani; It marg per dhireejai,Sir deejay kaan(h) na keejay. While we have a duty to further our moral growth, we also are expected to fight Manmatt.Fighting this Manmatt is what prof. Darshan Singh is doing. It is not going to be easy. His very life is on the line.I compliment him for keeing his cool under these circumstances . I believe his strength comes from Gubaani which his very being is suffused with . May the Guru give him strength to keep his faith.Lovingly,
Satnam Singh Randhawa

But where is the manmat? I don't understand what he is doing. What is wrong if someone puts Dasam Granth next to SGGS. Did the gurus not have people walk beside them? Or sit with them? Truth is that the Dasam Granth and Guru Granth only have a difference of aim. One aims at obtaining a peace of mind, soul and body, while the other aims at fighting oppression and fanatics. Just like Miri, Piri, or the comparative views of the Gurus. Dasmesh Pita always had a more strict approach to fighting tyranny and founded the Khalsa Panth. The Guru granth is all about god while the Dasam Granth, which also contains the Ustat of Akal Purakh, contains the stories of men and women and their intrigues as well scenes of wars and different weapons. I honestly believe that we should stay united and that there far more pressing issues in the world that we can fix, rather than fighting amongst ourselves and ruining our panth over materialistic things that the Gurus would not care about.

vkiram9274 ji

In a way you are making a quick retreat without making any retreat whatsoever.

Your focus on Waheguru, your need to find peace, and your experience that gurdwaras have become placs of controversy and political talk are a very different kind of reply. Contrast that to some of your earlier statements. They were more confrontational.

Good that we can agree that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is our guru. Sri Guru Gobind Singh may have believed he ended all controversy in 1699. That seems more logical reason why he would not be interested in discussing the matter any further. I refer to your comments about our gurus being unlikely to find the discussion of Dasam Granth to have any merit. ("Like i said, I do not think that the same Guru's who went through so many hardships, would have minded if someone sat next to them, or even if they sat on the floor while everyone else sat on a higher platform.")

And yes -- in the scheme of eternity - parkash of Sri Guru Granth Sahib cannot be fathomed by the human mind because the human mind cannot fathom eternity. Not that I agree that makes this controversy trivial. The operative words are aad sach, jugaad sach, hosi bi sach. So I believe that Guru Nanak has resolved that part of your dilemma, and cleared any doubts.


We should keep in mind that December 5 is not too far off. It makes sense that this is a time to throw some hard punches. For example, some have stated i.e., Professor Darshan Singh made his money from Dasam Granth, and now is a preaching hypocrite, nothing more than a materialistic money grubber. Why did he suddenly change his mind, and so forth?

There are many people who are sitting on the fence, have doubts about their understanding of Dasam Granth, don't know what to think, have not made up their minds, wish the discussion would just go away, hate it when their inner peace is disturbed, etc. etc. -- they are the very people who are supposed to be persuaded by watching these punches thrown, outside of the rules of debate. Not that I am suggesting that you are doing that.

ma'am I am discontent with the fact that the issue is tearing our religion, our panth apart. I personally have no problem with the Dasam Granth or its supporters and opposers. I have a problem with the fact that these people are breaking our panth down and our LEADERS are doing NOTHING. THey go about fixing this problem the wrong way. When two people have a disagreement of opinions, the best thing to do is talk it out. That is what I think thy should do. No excommunication, none of that. Let Darshan Singh bring up his arguments and make points against the Dasam Granth, and let the Jathedars or Scholars in support of the Dasam Granth make their points. In the end, someone will come up right. But this will not happen, they will question Darshan Singh. Like I said before in another thread and gave a true story of Jathedar Gurbachan Singh and Iqbal Singh, they are motivated by money and politicians. All o these leaders are like that. This meeting will take place behind doors and in the end more controversy will arise. I ofcourse do find it weird that someone who supported a Granth for the larger portion of his life, turns on it all of a sudden. If he believed in it as if it was the Guru's Bani, he obviously had atal vishwas in it, just as we do with the SGGS, but he changed and I find that to be weird. But ofcourse, we all change as life progresses, so I am not one to judge. Oh and when I said "trivial", I meant that the fact that the Dasam Granth was Prakashed next to the SGGS was trivial, which I truly believe to be a trivial matter.

 

[satnamr46]

Vikram Ji,Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ke fateh
You seem to be sitting on both sides of the fence.On one hand you express your faith in the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib .On the other hand you see no harm in sikhs reading the make- believe and porn laden tales from the so called dasam granth.I do not now what value they have especially when the sikhs can not even read them aloud in a familial or congregational setting.If they were so crucial to the needs of his sikhs,I believe the tenth master in his infinite wisdom would have decreed his sikhs to read them .there is no evidence that he ever did that.As for your strange and ridiculous assertion that Guru Granth Sahib is only for the purpose of PIRI, you are so wrong.all the sikh Gurus had the same philosophy and it embraced both the concepts of Miri and Piri. There was never a deviation from that philosophy.The problem lies in our understanding.Guru Nanak led practical life, the life of a householder. He was no recluse.He fought oppression head on and was even imprisoned for that and had to do hard labour in prison(CHAKKI PEEHNI). He had the courage to calls the rahjahs(CHHenh) and mukkaddam(Dogs). he did not mince words . It is pretty strange that some sikhs ,( in whatever wisdom I do not know)are hell bent to separate the one philosophy of our Gurus. I am confident that the TRUTH of the Guru, s word will pervail. Lovingly
Satnam Singh Randhawa

 

[vikram9274]

Vikram Ji,Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ke fateh
You seem to be sitting on both sides of the fence.On one hand you express your faith in the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib .On the other hand you see no harm in sikhs reading the make- believe and porn laden tales from the so called dasam granth.I do not now what value they have especially when the sikhs can not even read them aloud in a familial or congregational setting.If they were so crucial to the needs of his sikhs,I believe the tenth master in his infinite wisdom would have decreed his sikhs to read them .there is no evidence that he ever did that.As for your strange and ridiculous assertion that Guru Granth Sahib is only for the purpose of PIRI, you are so wrong.all the sikh Gurus had the same philosophy and it embraced both the concepts of Miri and Piri. There was never a deviation from that philosophy.The problem lies in our understanding.Guru Nanak led practical life, the life of a householder. He was no recluse.He fought oppression head on and was even imprisoned for that and had to do hard labour in prison(CHAKKI PEEHNI). He had the courage to calls the rahjahs(CHHenh) and mukkaddam(Dogs). he did not mince words . It is pretty strange that some sikhs ,( in whatever wisdom I do not know)are hell bent to separate the one philosophy of our Gurus. I am confident that the TRUTH of the Guru, s word will pervail. Lovingly
Satnam Singh Randhawa

Porn Laden? Love is a form of worship. I personally think sex is also. Without it we wouldn't be here. Sex is necessary and c'mon lets be honest, we have it for pleasure also. And who says you can't read them aloud? Those are our sociatal restrictions. If one feels uncomfortable reading them aloud that that is his or her fault. There are many things in the world that one learns with time or can not be said in front of youngsters. And as for understanding the Gurus and their infinite wisdom, that will never be attained by commoners such as myself. My point was that there are many things common between both Granths and the main difference is one of objective. And the miri piri comment was to show that just like there is a difference between to two, thati s the difference between this. Most of the SGGS is based on meditation, peace of mind, etc. Mean while the Dasam Granth is based on stopping oppression, tyranny, the art of war, etc. It was a simplification.

 

[spnadmin]

Most of the SGGS is based on meditation, peace of mind, etc. Mean while the Dasam Granth is based on stopping oppression, tyranny, the art of war, etc. It was a simplification.

vikram9274 ji

This is also a simplification. You may not realize it, but you are giving voice to the false temple/fortress dichotomy that was put into the drinking water by Hew McLeod and others. It is a misrepresentation of Sikhism. To you it may seem a humble and honest statement to make. But this is exactly the thinking that is tearing Sikhism apart. A granth for the mystics versus a granth for the warriors (and there are many who want to be identified as the warriors because they have a romantized view of the 10th Guru).

Where in Gurbani did Guru Nanak fail to raise our consciousness about tyranny and oppression and corruption? Sikhism was born under oppression, and it is still being oppressed by those who misunderstand the moral weight of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj, and who forget the spiritual message of Guru Gobind Singh.

 

[vikram9274]

vikram9274 ji

This is also a simplification. You may not realize it, but you are giving voice to the false temple/fortress dichotomy that was put into the drinking water by Hew McLeod and others. It is a misrepresentation of Sikhism. To you it may seem a humble and honest statement to make. But this is exactly the thinking that is tearing Sikhism apart. A granth for the mystics versus a granth for the warriors (and there are many who want to be identified as the warriors because they have a romantized view of the 10th Guru).

Where in Gurbani did Guru Nanak fail to raise our consciousness about tyranny and oppression and corruption? Sikhism was born under oppression, and it is still being oppressed by those who misunderstand the moral weight of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj, and who forget the spiritual message of Guru Gobind Singh.

Ma'am i understand that, but my point is that where the SGGS is in most parts nonviolent and mostly about meditation, peace of mind, etc the dasam granth is written with the objective of stopping oppression. What the Guru's did in their lifetime is not what I am stating. yes the Gurus fought oppression, all of them did. I am talking only about the bulk of the SGGS and the Bulk of the Dasam Granth. Yes there are portions of SGGS that talk about stopping oppression, but i views the bulk as a text on how to live and become on with Akal Purakh. I am not arguing what the Guru's did during their time. I am discussing the overall message. I do not think of SGGS as a text that is about war or oppression, but first thing that comes to mind is a text that teaches on how to obtain a peace of mind and reach waheguru through meditation and naam japna.

 

[satnamr46]

Vikram Ji
Waheguru ji ka khalsa

Waheguru ji ki fateh It is interesting to note that you consider sex to be a form of worship.Gurbani does not reject sex but it is to done responsibly, with a view to procreate.There is no room for lasciviousness and unbridled libidinous cravings.Gurbani emphasises SANJAM.And only one partner. The pleasure which you are visualizing seems to escape my reading of GURU GRANTH SAHIB.According to the Guru the real worship of the Providence is; Ghal khaaey kitchh hathon day,Nanak Raah pachhaanay say.Here are some observations from Gurbani;
ਨਿਮਖ ਕਾਮ ਸੁਆਦ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਕੋਟਿ ਦਿਨਸ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਵਹਿ ॥
ਘਰੀ ਮੁਹਤ ਰੰਗ ਮਾਣਹਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਪਛੁਤਾਵਹਿ ॥੧॥
<cite>"For a moment of sexual pleasure, you shall suffer in pain for millions of days. For an instant, you may savour pleasure, but afterwards, you shall regret it, again and again. ||1||"
(Ang 405)</cite>

ਹੇ ਕਾਮੰ ਨਰਕ ਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮੰ ਬਹੁ ਜੋਨੀ ਭ੍ਰਮਾਵਣਹ ॥
ਚਿਤ ਹਰਣੰ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਲੋਕ ਗੰਮ੍ਯ੍ਯੰ ਜਪ ਤਪ ਸੀਲ ਬਿਦਾਰਣਹ ॥
ਅਲਪ ਸੁਖ ਅਵਿਤ ਚੰਚਲ ਊਚ ਨੀਚ ਸਮਾਵਣਹ ॥
ਤਵ ਭੈ ਬਿਮੁੰਚਿਤ ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਮ ਓਟ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਰਾਇਣਹ ॥੪੬॥
<cite>"O sexual desire, you lead the mortals to hell; you make them wander in reincarnation through countless species. You cheat the consciousness, and pervade the three worlds. You destroy meditation, penance and virtue. But you give only shallow pleasure, while you make the mortals weak and unsteady; you pervade the high and the low. Your fear is dispelled in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, O Nanak, through the Protection and Support of the Lord. ||46||"
(Ang 1358)</cite>
<cite>As for your claim that there is no harm in reading them aloud,may be Lamba and his cotery will listen to you. But then you say there are societal restrictions. It is baffling to know what you want to say . Scriptures are meant for society comprising of men ,women and children and not rocks and trees.Remember .Gubani emphasises SAHAJ and SANJAM(RESTRAINT)All of GURU GRANTH SAHIB is about cotrolling our mind with guru,s grace and wisdom and not to let it run rampant causing death ,despair and destruction in its wanton pursuit of salacious sports.</cite>
<cite>Lovingly,</cite>
<cite>Satnam Singh Randhawa
</cite>

 

[vikram9274]

Vikram Ji
Waheguru ji ka khalsa

Waheguru ji ki fateh It is interesting to note that you consider sex to be a form of worship.Gurbani does not reject sex but it is to done responsibly, with a view to procreate.There is no room for lasciviousness and unbridled libidinous cravings.Gurbani emphasises SANJAM.And only one partner. The pleasure which you are visualizing seems to escape my reading of GURU GRANTH SAHIB.According to the Guru the real worship of the Providence is; Ghal khaaey kitchh hathon day,Nanak Raah pachhaanay say.Here are some observations from Gurbani;
ਨਿਮਖ ਕਾਮ ਸੁਆਦ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਕੋਟਿ ਦਿਨਸ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਵਹਿ ॥
ਘਰੀ ਮੁਹਤ ਰੰਗ ਮਾਣਹਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਪਛੁਤਾਵਹਿ ॥੧॥
<cite>"For a moment of sexual pleasure, you shall suffer in pain for millions of days. For an instant, you may savour pleasure, but afterwards, you shall regret it, again and again. ||1||"
(Ang 405)</cite>

ਹੇ ਕਾਮੰ ਨਰਕ ਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮੰ ਬਹੁ ਜੋਨੀ ਭ੍ਰਮਾਵਣਹ ॥
ਚਿਤ ਹਰਣੰ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਲੋਕ ਗੰਮ੍ਯ੍ਯੰ ਜਪ ਤਪ ਸੀਲ ਬਿਦਾਰਣਹ ॥
ਅਲਪ ਸੁਖ ਅਵਿਤ ਚੰਚਲ ਊਚ ਨੀਚ ਸਮਾਵਣਹ ॥
ਤਵ ਭੈ ਬਿਮੁੰਚਿਤ ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਮ ਓਟ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਰਾਇਣਹ ॥੪੬॥
<cite>"O sexual desire, you lead the mortals to hell; you make them wander in reincarnation through countless species. You cheat the consciousness, and pervade the three worlds. You destroy meditation, penance and virtue. But you give only shallow pleasure, while you make the mortals weak and unsteady; you pervade the high and the low. Your fear is dispelled in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, O Nanak, through the Protection and Support of the Lord. ||46||"
(Ang 1358)</cite>
<cite>As for your claim that there is no harm in reading them aloud,may be Lamba and his cotery will listen to you. But then you say there are societal restrictions. It is baffling to know what you want to say . Scriptures are meant for society comprising of men ,women and children and not rocks and trees.Remember .Gubani emphasises SAHAJ and SANJAM(RESTRAINT)All of GURU GRANTH SAHIB is about cotrolling our mind with guru,s grace and wisdom and not to let it run rampant causing death ,despair and destruction in its wanton pursuit of salacious sports.</cite>
<cite>Lovingly,</cite>
<cite>Satnam Singh Randhawa
</cite>

Okay first off, we are human. I have sex for pleasure (premarital at that). I was not saying that it is written in SGGS, I was saying that I consider love worship and will go as far as to say that in certain situations sex can be considered worship also. I am not a god by any means or close to the dust of Guru Ji's feet. Alot of people have sex for pleasure, a better part of the population actually. And with your point "with one partner", I would like to point out that one of our own Jathedars is married twice I believe, Giani Iqbal Singh from Patna Sahib. As for the the SOCIETY comment, I was saying that it is our fault. We place these societal restrictions upon ourselves. Why don't you read it aloud in a family setting? You should. Many don't read it because of situation that you described as "porn". That is a societal restriction. You said that the "porn-laden" Dasam Granth cannot be read in a familial setting. That is a restriction you place upon the Granth under moral and societal pressures. I see no problem in reading Dasam Granth aloud, be it in front of an 80yr old or a 12yr old.

 

[satnamr46]

Vikram ji
Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh
In this forum on Sikh Philosophy ,we are trying to decipher the philosophy of our Gurus and Bhagats.How do they want humans to live their lives so that there is a Begumpura on eath and the establishment of Haleemee Raaj.And for that they have given us prescription; SARAB ROG KA AAUKHAD NAAM.We are urged to live In God`s way,curb and restrain the five thieves ,not to let them run freely in their wayward ways.We are humans, I concede.God is loving and merciful and if we take one step in the right direction ,is there to pick us up and move us along to a world of joy ,righteouness and ineffable peace. the joys which our mind gives us are ephemral. Gubani says: man lochay buriaan-een, gur shabdi ih man horee-ay.Gurbani trains our minds to feel the presence of God both within and without.
Lovingly
Satnam Singh Randhawa

 

[spnadmin]

Ma'am i understand that, but my point is that where the SGGS is in most parts nonviolent and mostly about meditation, peace of mind, etc the dasam granth is written with the objective of stopping oppression.

vikram9274 ji

How I envy Satnam ji's kindliness! I am much more blunt. Where did you get the idea that the "dasam granth" as we encounter it today "is written with the objective of stopping oppression?"

The "dasam granth" is eclectic and has no particular theme or objective to unite is varied texts. In fact the longest sections of the "dasam granth" are totally unrelated to stopping oppression. A total of 12,852 verses to be exact.

The longest text is the Charitropakhyaan consisting of 7555 verses. Mainstream Sikhs do not accept this as by the pen of Dasam Pita. The title means the "wiles of women." It opens with devotional praise of Dev Bhaugati. However, the main lesson seems to be that the Khatris, or warriors, should take pains to immunize themselves from the dangers of the female psyche.

The second longest text is Chaubis Avatar, consisting of 5297 verses. It is mainly concerned with the 24 incarnations of Vishnu, retells the stories of Krishna and Raam, discusses overcoming enemies and battle techniques, shows its devtas and heroes falling to their own egotism, and appeals to the sanatan psyche that takes all of these incarnations to be functional attributes of the nirgun aspect of Akaal. Its authorship is reputed to be that of the court poet Shyam, also a topic of bitter debate among advocates of "dasam granth."

It is far-fetched to state that Sri Guru Dasam Granth is spiritual and "dasam granth" is about overcoming oppression. Do not confuse militaristic content with the overcoming of oppression.

 

[vikram9274]

vikram9274 ji

How I envy Satnam ji's kindliness! I am much more blunt. Where did you get the idea that the "dasam granth" as we encounter it today "is written with the objective of stopping oppression?"

The "dasam granth" is eclectic and has no particular theme or objective to unite is varied texts. In fact the longest sections of the "dasam granth" are totally unrelated to stopping oppression. A total of 12,852 verses to be exact.

The longest text is the Charitropakhyaan consisting of 7555 verses. Mainstream Sikhs do not accept this as by the pen of Dasam Pita. The title means the "wiles of women." It opens with devotional praise of Dev Bhaugati. However, the main lesson seems to be that the Khatris, or warriors, should take pains to immunize themselves from the dangers of the female psyche.

The second longest text is Chaubis Avatar, consisting of 5297 verses. It is mainly concerned with the 24 incarnations of Vishnu, retells the stories of Krishna and Raam, discusses overcoming enemies and battle techniques, shows its devtas and heroes falling to their own egotism, and appeals to the sanatan psyche that takes all of these incarnations to be functional attributes of the nirgun aspect of Akaal. Its authorship is reputed to be that of the court poet Shyam, also a topic of bitter debate among advocates of "dasam granth."

It is far-fetched to state that Sri Guru Dasam Granth is spiritual and "dasam granth" is about overcoming oppression. Do not confuse militaristic content with the overcoming of oppression.

Ma'am that was in response to the miri piri reference. With al these replies i am only addressing certain points so i don't repeat the same things over and over again. The opression point was made in reference to my miri piri statement.

 

[spnadmin]

Okay first off, we are human. I have sex for pleasure (premarital at that). I was not saying that it is written in SGGS, I was saying that I consider love worship and will go as far as to say that in certain situations sex can be considered worship also. I am not a god by any means or close to the dust of Guru Ji's feet. Alot of people have sex for pleasure, a better part of the population actually. And with your point "with one partner",...You said that the "porn-laden" Dasam Granth cannot be read in a familial setting. That is a restriction you place upon the Granth under moral and societal pressures. I see no problem in reading Dasam Granth aloud, be it in front of an 80yr old or a 12yr old.

vikram9274 ji

Perhaps you have missed the point of Charitthropakayan. "A lesson in morality and rules of conduct are also given to the Kyshatriya (warrior)."

 

[vikram9274]

vikram9274 ji

Perhaps you have missed the point of Charitthropakayan. "A lesson in morality and rules of conduct are also given to the Kyshatriya (warrior)."

I understand that ma'am but Ij ust beleibe that the Dasam Granth and SGGS are written with two different goals in mind. There are many similarities along with a few differences. As for morals, we all have our own set of morals and ethics. There are probably many things I am okay with that most would consider unethical or unmoral and vice-versa

 

[spnadmin]

I understand that ma'am but Ij ust beleibe that the Dasam Granth and SGGS are written with two different goals in mind. There are many similarities along with a few differences. As for morals, we all have our own set of morals and ethics. There are probably many things I am okay with that most would consider unethical or unmoral and vice-versa

You know I took you up in a previous post on your statement that SGGS and DG were written with two different goals in mind. I pointed out that you were mistaken as to the contents and themes of both SGGS and DG. You more or less commented that you had moved on from the comparison of SGGS and DG, that comparison was only important in the context of miri piri. Somehow I got the feeling that you were telling me that I was off-base. Here you are repeating the same thing again.

Is the paragraph that I quoted above written with a focus on sex, morals and ethics on a personal plane? Or are you writing with a focus on morals, ethics and spirituality as per Gurmat? Or are you making a completely different point?

By the way, the concept of "miri piri" unifies spirituality and the worldly obligation to overcome oppression. Miri Piri began with the 6th Guru, Hargobind Dev ji. He only knew the banee that his father knew, the Aad Granth. There was no Dasam Granth, nor was there a need for another granth to overcome oppression. Guru Hargobind knew what he had to do.

 

[vikram9274]

You know I took you up in a previous post on your statement that SGGS and DG were written with two different goals in mind. I pointed out that you were mistaken as to the contents and themes of both SGGS and DG. You more or less commented that you had moved on from the comparison of SGGS and DG, that comparison was only important in the context of miri piri. Somehow I got the feeling that you were telling me that I was off-base. Here you are repeating the same thing again.

Is the paragraph that I quoted above written with a focus on sex, morals and ethics on a personal plane? Or are you writing with a focus on morals, ethics and spirituality as per Gurmat? Or are you making a completely different point?

Ma'am my point was that with times many things change. I personally, like i stated, have premarital sex for pleasure on a regular basis. Many see this as unmoral, but in today's age it is common (especially sex for pleasure). I have not taken amrit but I try to apply many basic points of SGGS into my life, but ofcourse to apply all of them, is impossible for me for I am not nearly as close to being at one with waheguru as needed to accomplish that. For us to assume that someone must live completely by the way of gurmat and the SGGS is a stretch. I would never expect that. But yes that post was made to point out that we all have our own morals and ethics, otherwise all Sikhs would have the same morals and there would be no controversy. And I was pointing out that Giani Iqbal Singh married twice so even our own Jathedars are going against the SGGS (which I find to be highly Ironic). Iqbal Singh pushes this off as being a personal matter but it is important. I have perhaps a very unorthodox view of SGGS and Sikhi as a whole. I try to do as much as I can and follow as much of the path as possible and do not assert that I am extremely religious or knowledgeable. But at the same time, I do not force or judge others (except when they act as though they are extremely knowledgeable, such as the Jathedars and fake Baba's, and then do anti-panthic deeds). The only reason I am even discussing Darshan Singh is because this issue is dividing our panth and it is sad. I do not think this issue is even that big but it is being blown out of proportion by the media and the failure to address the issue or to atleast address is correctly.

 

[International Akaali]

Veer ji shall i repeat my question? What is mantree bhoopat sambadh? if it is story narrated by mantree than how can it be 10th masters bani?

secondly with regard to your baseless argument about prof darshan singh changing his mind. Let me ask you, did sajan tuug change his mind? did baba lehna change his mind?
Lehna did frequent worshiping to statues and hindu rituals but when he got gyan of guru he stopped and look what he became, Guru Angad Sahib ji.

So should we start saying hey lehna changed his mind he was wrong, he should of kept on doing what he was doing. You are wrong, if someone sees light and understands hey what i was doing before was wrong and i am going to fix it whats wrong with that?
Sajan tuug did it.

Even if you look at the sakhee of the singhs that gave vidhava to guru sahib and then came back shall we see hey they left now they can't come back?

Now jus answer this question like i did before i will be greatful, you went off track and diverted your answer.

What is mantree bhoopat sambadh? if it is story narrated by mantree than how can it be 10th masters bani? if it is pakiyan stories from other places, then how can it still be guru sahibs bani?

Kind Regards