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Why Desire To End Reincarnation?

Why desire to end reincarnation?

  • To be united with the Creator.

    Votes: 10 66.7%
  • To leave the Creation.

    Votes: 1 6.7%
  • From what I've heard it sounds like the thing to do.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other.

    Votes: 4 26.7%

  • Total voters
    15
Aug 27, 2005
328
223
76
Baltimore Md USA
I don't get the connection to Shiva...:confused::confused::confused: At some point did Ek Oankaar give out specific zones of influence to Shiva and the others - Mars for example. Or are you saying that Shiva can be sighted on Mars :confused::confused::confused: Very confusing.

You know I am one of those slow learners who cannot wrap her mind around the possibility that Shiva is/was a manifestation of the Sat Guru. So more details would be needed. (and hee hee, not more backchannel emails). :)

NK ji

I think namjap ji was just having fun and wanted to show that beautiful picture.

Peace
Satyaban
 

Tejwant Singh

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Jun 30, 2004
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Satyaban ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:


Tejwant ji:

I don't know why you repeat your question when I am sure you know the answer. Are you a lawyer? Your question had no place in our discussions that I could see. I have also been through this drill with Muslims as well.
Pardon my ignorance, but I have no idea what you are talking about. I do not know either, why you are reluctant to responding and teaching us about your religion. If I had known the answers, there would have been no reason for me to ask you the questions. False assumptions by you once again and you claim to be a private investigator which is interesting to say the least.:)

What does Islam have to do with Sikhi and what kind of drill are you talking about? Stop with your riddles and be direct and honest about things. Your false assumptions make no sense.

You seem angry and I thought any religion one adheres to, should give the follower the tools to get rid of anger and also teach to give the benefit of the doubt. My bad. It seems that whatever faith you belong to does not do that. Or atleast you have shown your contempt when asked directly about your own faith.

The only reason for me to repeat my question is to learn from you about your religion. As you have asked things that you did not know about Sikhi in this forum, so, I do not know why this insecurity of responding about your own faith and why show this acerbic nature when asked a direct question?

As mentioned before, you always claim to know more about others than about yourself.

So let me ask you again:
Who wrote Lord Shiva's story and when and why was it written and what kind of documentation is there to back the story up?

Also you said:

"As mentioned before in my posts to you, SGGS is not any one's private or monopolised scripture unlike the Hindu scriptures which were not allowed to be read by anyone else but the Brahmins. SGGS is for all to savour. Goodness is like the scent of a flower which emits itself in all directions sans bias. So when you say it is not your scripture, you are misleading yourself. As said before, knowledge is everyone's friend. It is a personal choice of the individual to become open minded or remain parochial and the latter is what breeds bias and preconcieved superficial notions."
The first sentence of the above quote raises the question what century are you living in?
What does time have to do with my question? Can you please elaborate that? Your claim makes no sense to me. So, I need your help in understanding it.

More importantly it reveals a contempt for my faith that you have been trying to hide and frankly it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Once again you have claimed as your habit has shown in the past, to know more about others than about yourself, which is a shame. You mean stating the facts is a wrong thing?

Sorry to know that the truth about caste system and that only the Brahmins could read the Hindu scriptures leaves a bad taste in your mouth and rightfully so, it should. Caste system is the worst kind of Apartheid and it is a shame that you want to hold on to it despite being a convert to Hinduism.

The fact is that Bhagat Ravidas, whose writings are in SGGS was not allowed to enter any temple because of his low caste.

Your comments show that you are not bothered by that but rather ok with it which is a sad thing to notice.

Now, which century you said we were living in?:)

Your tactics are not new all being done with a smile on your face and the mantra "this is how we learn." Your "This is how we learn" is really let me tell you.
How else do we learn if not by asking questions and expecting honest answers? Please share your wisdom about it. You seem to assume too much and one can see that.

That is why you call yourself a private investigator where assumptions are the norms or the exceptions?


What's more I don't want to be converted.
Thanks for showing once again your insecurity about yourself and your faith again. No one is converting anyone. Sikhi is not about converting anyone. Let me repeat it, your preconceived wrong notions about Sikhi say something and show more about you, and the superficiality that you practice.

It is you who have repeatedly talked about your faith in this forum. One can blame you for actually trying to convert others here to your Shivling ( Shiva's Phallus) fantasies, but as Sikhs we are open minded and let people express themselves about their faiths in this forum. Your posts would indicate that.

Now, relax, take it easy and start practicing what you preach. Faith is not about being a private investigator and jumping to conclusions without any basis.

Faith is about being honest with yourself and giving the benefit of the doubt to others.

Regards.

Tejwant Singh
 

Ozarks

SPNer
Jun 20, 2009
53
79
I don't get the connection to Shiva...:confused::confused::confused: At some point did Ek Oankaar give out specific zones of influence to Shiva and the others - Mars for example.

He must have. I went through a little town onetime and there was a sign by the road that said "Jesus is Lord over (town name) and surrounding area." I saw that town... I thought Jesus got the short end of the stick. :p
 
Aug 27, 2005
328
223
76
Baltimore Md USA
Ozarks ji

It looks like those Christian folks should pull their missionaries back from India, South American and everywhere else to "save" that town and its environs.:roll: OMG that town wasn't Las Vegas was it?:rofl!!:

Peace
Satyaban
 

kiram

SPNer
Jan 26, 2008
278
338
Kiram ji

That you very much for providing for your understanding of the shabad as I requested while proving mine quite wrong. Since I make no claim of knowledge of scripture that is not my own I doubly in your debt.

Peace
Satyaban

Satyaban ji,

Am glad to do so but everyone comes out with a deeper and more beautiful meaning, as we read the Shabad again and again... i had absolutely no intentions of proving you wrong..

And i have no knowledge myself.. and i must admit that was my first attempt at explaining a Shabad ji!! and i was apprehensive about doing it, since i have never translated any Shabad.. We all get together as a sangat to learn from each other, all that He has blessed us with through Gurbani.... and we are so fortunate, that Guru Sahib Ji has blessed us with so much through every word, every Shabad in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.....

Enjoy every moment of this journey... :wah:
 
Aug 27, 2005
328
223
76
Baltimore Md USA
Satyaban ji,

Am glad to do so but everyone comes out with a deeper and more beautiful meaning, as we read the Shabad again and again... i had absolutely no intentions of proving you wrong..

And i have no knowledge myself.. and i must admit that was my first attempt at explaining a Shabad ji!! and i was apprehensive about doing it, since i have never translated any Shabad.. We all get together as a sangat to learn from each other, all that He has blessed us with through Gurbani.... and we are so fortunate, that Guru Sahib Ji has blessed us with so much through every word, every Shabad in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.....

Enjoy every moment of this journey... :wah:

Kiram ji:

There was no problem. I am not a Sikh and know nothing about your scripture. I had it wrong and you corrected me. Proving me wrong doesn't even enter our conversation.

Peace
Satyaban
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Satyaban ji

The thread may seem adrift, but as I go back over past comments, it looks different to me. This thread is like a 2 lane highway. One lane seems to be about what is almost a theological response to the question "Why desire to end reincarnation?" That lane has very little traffic in it right now. The other lane seems to be about our personal experiences relating to the question. The traffic is in that lane at the moment. And there is always some droll chatter on every thread from time to time. So feel free to open up a new lane, or pull over to the shoulder. But don't exit. :D
 

Embers

SPNer
Aug 10, 2009
114
148
EU
:) Thanks Narayanjot Ji
I wonder if someone on this busy highway would be able to give me directions to the work by Bhai Vir Singh ji which describes the process (I assume of moksha) which Harbansj24 ji references above, please?
 
Feb 19, 2007
494
888
76
Delhi India
Ambers ji,

Bhai Vir Singh ji has discussed it in detail in Guru Nanak Chamatkar. I am unable to scan it immediately and put my finger on the exact chapters. But I vaguely remember it was in dialogues with Sidhs, Barthar Jogi, Bhagat Jans etc.

Anyway reading both the volumes is guaranteed to be a rewarding experience and will give the reader an enchanting annotation of Sikh Philosophy.
 

Tejwant Singh

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Writer
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Jun 30, 2004
5,024
7,183
Henderson, NV.
Bhai Vir Singh ji-

Sadh Sangat,

Guru Fateh.

Harbans ji is right about the intellect, depth and love for Ik Ong Kaar in Bhai Vir Singh ji.

In the fear of sounding arrogant and dwelling in me-ism, I would like to share some anecdotes about him the way I was told by my family.

He was a very good friend of my Grand dad's Dr. Balwant Singh Malik although he was much older. My Grand dad was born in Jan 1889 and Bhai Sahib was born some years earlier in December, 1872.

Bhai Sahib, Sobha Singh ji- the famous painter, Prof. Puran Singh who was my Grand dad's cousin ( his bhua's son) were buddies and they used to get together at my ancestral's home in Ferozepore and also in Kasoli, a hill station.

The anecdote I would like to share is that the day I was born, at home of course, Bhai Vir Singh was there and he gave me the Gurti- a ritual in Punjab where someone puts a touch of honey in the newborn's mouth in hopes that the new born may emulate the person who has given it to him/her.

I must confess that I have been incapable of doing that.

Tejwant Singh
 

ik-jivan

SPNer
May 3, 2010
68
108
Ozark ji,
I think if we believe that the spirit of Nanak Dev ji returned 10 times and resides now in the SGGS ji, we must also believe in reincarnation. Yet, we should also see that Nanak Dev ji returned as a realized being, a jivan mukta, which should raise questions about a rather subtle principle of reincarnation. The Buddhists call one who returns as a jivan mukta a ‘Boddhisattva’. They return to aid the souls of other beings toward realization.

That said, ‘Is it for a union with the Creator or a desire to free yourself from the Creation’ that one desires to merge with Ik Onkar? I think the desire is something of a spiritual instinct, or natural law, much like a droplet of water will always migrate toward a larger droplet of water when in proximity to it. The desire seems to be born out of aversion to pain and suffering, as well as the urge of prana to live. It moves consciousness from animal to realized man. You might say that union is intrinsic to being. Yet, if consciously pursued, the objective of merger become less a personal goal and yields to the Universal Divine Will. So, the jivan mukta could merge or they could be returned, like Nanak Dev ji, depending upon whether there is a hukam for that particular soul to fulfil.

It seems to me that the fruit of spiritual evolution is the beginning of Anhad Shabad, Ajpa Jaap and the opening of Dasam Duar, which are mentioned all throughout SGGS ji and expounded upon in Japji Sahib. These are the manifestations of the realized man, the jivan mukta. The pineal gland is activated and begins to excrete Amrit Rass, or in scientific parlance, DMT, ATP and other chemicals that expand consciousness and strengthen body.

So, I gave ‘Other’ as the reason for ending reincarnation. The ‘other’ is what Nanak Dev ji pointed out:

hukim rjweI clxw nwnk iliKAw nwil ]1]
hukam rajaaee chalanaa naanak likhiaa naal ||1||
O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?SourceID=G&PageNo=0001

The desire is built-in to creation and is inevitable, but the option to return remains so long as any single soul isn’t ready to return.

Sat Sri Akal,
t
 

Tejwant Singh

Mentor
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Jun 30, 2004
5,024
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Henderson, NV.
Ik Jivan ji,

Guru fateh.

First of all. please forgive me to be barging into the conversation between you and Ozark ji but your comments in your first paragraph caught my eyes. We can discuss the rest of your post later.

You write:

I think if we believe that the spirit of Nanak Dev ji returned 10 times and resides now in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, we must also believe in reincarnation.

I am a bit puzzled by your above assertion or perhaps I could not grasp the meaning of reincarnation from your view point.

We all know that Gurgadhis were given to the following Gurus by the Gurus that preceded them. In other words the Gurgadhi was transferred when the Guru was alive. So, this can not be reincarnation. Reincarnation occurs when the person dies and then the third person somehow gets the information via conning because we all know that our Divine Guru will not let us astray, and then this third person decides about the Gurgadhi which naturally holds his own interests.

So, would you be kind enough to elaborate what your really meant?


Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh
 

ik-jivan

SPNer
May 3, 2010
68
108
Tejwant Singh ji,
Oh, there is no need to ask for forgiveness for asking for clarification. I appreciate the opportunity to expand on the statement and perhaps gather more insight from yourself and others. Here is the basis for stating ‘I think if we believe that the spirit of Nanak Dev ji returned 10 times and resides now in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, we must also believe in reincarnation.‘

. . . Hmmmm. Perhaps ‘returned’ is a misleading word, for Nanak Dev ji never actually left. Anyhow, here are my references. . .

SikhiWiki: The succession of 'the light'
This awareness of one light acting through the successive Gurus was so permeating among the Sikhs that Mobid Zulfiqar Ardastani (d. 1670) wrote in his Persian work Dabistan-i-Mazahib, "The Sikhs say that when Nanak left his body, he absorbed himself in Guru Angad who was his most devoted disciple, and that Guru Angad was Nanak himself.

After that, at the time of his death, Guru Angad entered into the body of Guru Amar Das. He in the same manner occupied a place in the body of Guru Ram Das who in the same way got united with Guru Arjan.

They say that whoever does not acknowledge Guru Arjan to be the very self of Baba Nanak becomes a nonbeliever."

Guru Gobind Singh, last of the Gurus, himself wrote in his poetical autobiography called Bachitra Natak, "Nanak assumed the body of Angad. . . .

Afterwards, Nanak was called Amar Das, as one lamp is lit from another. . . The holy Nanak was revered as Angad, Angad was recognized as Amar Das. And Amar Das became Ram Das. . .

When Ram Das was blended with the Divine, he gave the Guruship to Arjan. Arjan appointed Hargobind in his place and Hargobind gave his seat to Har Rai. Har Krishan, his son, then became Guru. After him came Tegh Bahadur."

Source: http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Guru#Guruship_-_the_one_candle_lights_the_next

Bachitra Natak - Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji, page 130
ਨਾਨਕ ਅੰਗਦ ਕੋ ਬਪੁ ਧਰਾ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਪ੍ਰਚੁਰ ਇਹ ਜਗ ਮੋ ਕਰਾ ॥
नानक अंगद को बपु धरा ॥ धरम प्रचुर इह जग मो करा ॥
Nanak transformed himself to Angad and spread Dharma in the world.

ਅਮਰਦਾਸ ਪੁਨਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥ ਜਨੁ ਦੀਪਕ ਤੇ ਦੀਪ ਜਗਾਯੋ ॥੭॥
अमरदास पुनि नामु कहायो ॥ जनु दीपक ते दीप जगायो ॥७॥
He was called Amar Das in the next transformation, a lamp was lit from the lamp.

Source: http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=130&english=t&id=68206

The point I intended to make was that if the soul and spirit of Nanak Dev ji is thought to have transferred, along with the guruship, then the movement of soul from one body to another, (regardless of whether the first has perished ahead of the birth of the successive soul), must also be a valid concept. I suppose this is a stretch of inference on my part.

Does that clear up the questions you had? Do you feel I have I misunderstood?

Sat Sri Akal,
t
 

findingmyway

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Aug 17, 2010
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Ik-jivan ji,
Fascinating concept. However, with reference to the Guru's I don't know if transferance of soul is the correct concept as what was present before each received the guruship and what happened to that? The way they led their lives before receiving the guruship determined suitability to become the next Guru so surely we can't discount the soul previously present? I understand more that it was the jyot that transferred. That to me is the understanding of the truth, the unwavering dedication to Waheguru and ability to inspire others to follow the true path - this is so much more than soul and something very unique.
Please correct me if i am wrong : )
Jasleen
 

spnadmin

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Jun 17, 2004
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ik-jivan ji

It is my understanding that transference of the jyote is not the same thing as reincarnation or transfer of the soul.

Each of the first 4 of our Gurus transferred the jyote while he was still alive. Following that Guru Arjan Dev 5th Nanak was nonetheless followed by his son Guru Hargobind who was living when his father died. This being the case as well with each of the Gurus to follow. Guru Har Rai chose his young son Guru Harkrishan. Even Guru Harkrishan was still living, though breathing his last breaths, when he gave directions to find the next Guru Teg Bahadur:

Shortly before his death, realizing the gravity of the situation, Guru Har Krishan called his mother and told her that his end was drawing near. When asked to name his successor, he merely exclaimed 'Baba Bakala'. Learning of his pronouncement many would style themselves as the next Sikh Guru at the village of Bakala. However, at the time the future (Guru) Teg Bahadur Sahib, was residing at village Bakala near river Beas in Punjab province. http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Guru_Har_Krishan

Apologies for not going through the entire succession of Gurus.
 
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