Controversial Why Is The Law Of Karma Rejected?

[Archived_member14]

Spnadmin ji,

Guru Nanak's bani that refers to Babar is sometimes called Babarbani These hymns are located in several places in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I am copying only the last one. What has always drawn me to Guru Nanak? He calls murder murder, and a city of corpses is a city of corpses, and a ghastly "affair " is a ghastly "affair," without evasion.

So you are saying that any mention of the concept of karma and rebirth would have been an evasion?

And though the corpse be torn to pieces, memories of injustice are not forgotten.
In the hukam of Akaal Purakh injustice will be righted again.

How do you figure this from what you cite? When this is said:

“He, the Lord is true, true is His decision, and He issues command based on true justice.”

I take this as I would karma, that regardless of what man in his ignorance thinks, the law of karma operates such that for every evil deed the corresponding results must follow. Those who are hurt or killed are receiving the fruit of their own actions in the past and those who cause harm and kill, will receive the negative results in the future regardless of whether they receive punishment or not by society.

Without mention of 84 lak joon or cleansing of karmas,

Actually, I had always had the impression that this was peculiar to Sikh teachings. I've never seen this expressed by the Hindus. They talk about birth in accordance with actions and not about going through a fixed sequence of existence as different beings.

we hear a clear message that humans must want to set their moral record straight in the here and now. Wish I could put that better. Maybe next time.

Yes, please do, because I don't see this expressed anywhere here. But of course I am quite dumb when it comes to interpreting expressions such as this.

 

[Archived_member14]

Tejwant ji,

From your posts, it clearly shows you are here to proselytize your branch of Buddhism rather than learning about Sikhi and discussing the commonalities between the two if they happen to have any. I remember having a similar conversation with you sometime ago in which you showed your Buddhist ire rather than an interaction. Your posts show your total immersion of Me-ism rather than trying to have a dialogue with the Sikhs so all of us can learn and it is clear that is not your agenda, which is a shame.

Fortunately you are not my therapist; therefore I don't have to be moved by what you say. You know I could just ignore you, but I'll explain myself as I've done several times before instead.

When I see some Sikhs expressing some confidence in the concept of karma I am happy, especially given others are trying to convince them otherwise. I consider the belief in moral cause and effect to be essential to growth in morality, but of course with understanding about what it really is. And I am put off by suggestions which point at some other basis for action, such as the idea of “consonance” or the belief in “God”.

I consider that the true basis for doing good and avoiding evil lie in the understanding of these states as and when they arise. To refer to concepts such as that of God or consonance or to a story line regarding different situations is just that, thinking and believing. They amount to psychological prompts and no more. Today you hold on to one idea as motivation to act one way, tomorrow you hold to another to act a different way. On the other hand, once you understand the characteristics of different moral states, you don’t even need to use any word in order to do the right thing.

Do I expect anyone here to convert to Buddhism? Absolutely not. I don't expect Buddhists to be convinced. I just state what I do with the hope that a little change in perspective happen. If someone here has a little appreciation of karma and someone else tries to convince him that it does not exist, I am compelled to come in with my own comments.

No doubt much of what I write is motivated invariably by attachment and by conceit. This however cannot be avoided. Also I realize that kindness rarely arises. However all this is not enough reason to stop expressing myself. Because from time to time there are intentions I consider positive, one associated with the thought that perhaps my comments are helpful.

Regarding approaching the discussions with the intention to learn from each other. I have said to you in the past that my perception is that my view is right and everyone else is wrong. Since then, this has become even more apparent and I often don't need to read more than just a few words and see the underlying view.

For example just two years ago, while sorting out my books I put aside a few of J. Krishnamurti’s books for my son to read, thinking that the Buddha's Dhamma is perhaps too deep for him to understand and that in the meantime Krishnamurti may be helpful. But just recently I read some comments which in the past impressed me greatly, and found them to be more misleading that I thought before. So I decided, no, don't read Krishnamurti, better read your math instead.

And do you suppose that I approach a discussion with preconceived ideas? I read them; only very quickly get the impression that something is wrong. This can't be helped can it?

I am sure you are very well aware that proselytization is forbidden in Sikhi because our journey is our own as individuals. Be the best human you can be no matter what/who you believe in, sayeth the Guru Granth.

You know what; I hesitate to call myself a Buddhist even. This is because I consider Buddhist only when a moment of right understanding has arisen and not at any other time. Why would I entertain the idea that this person or that person is a Buddhist, let alone that there is one more person who goes by the label? And why would I be motivated to do this when it is evident not only by the lack of interest shown, but more so the perception of how wide the gap is between the Sikh and Buddhist understanding? Besides, if you had some idea regarding what it means to have ADD, you'd know that it takes a great deal of effort for someone like me to accomplish anything, and although it becomes easier due to practice, it is still a laborious task to write these posts.

But back to your comment above, what you say does not make sense. You are saying that there is no need to correct anyone's views or are you in fact saying that no one is wrong?

But, let me ask you about only 2 things from your long list in your post. They are in bold.

You write:

Quote: Well, you could try to find out first, what karma exactly is i.e. what constitutes cause and what are results and what are the conditions for the latter to come about. Also you might like to question any insistence on being able to observe a one to one connection between any set of cause and effect.

Karma as a law? Good deeds through body, speech or mind bring about good results and bad deeds, bad results. Good deeds can’t bring about bad results and bad deeds can’t bring about good results.

What constitutes cause / karma? Causes are mental volition of a particular intensity as in:

Ten unwholesome actions:

1. Killing living beings
2. Stealing
3. Sexual misconduct
4. False speech
5. Malicious speech
6. Harsh speech
7. Gossip
8. Coveting
9. Ill-will
10. Wrong views

And

Ten wholesome actions:

1. Abstaining from killing living beings
2. Abstaining from stealing
3. Abstaining from sexual misconduct
4. Abstaining from false speech
5. Abstaining from malicious speech
6. Abstaining from harsh speech
7. Abstaining from gossip
8. Abstaining from coveting
9. Abstaining from ill-will
10. Possessing Right Understanding of the Truth

1. Killing living beings
1. Abstaining from killing living beings

Do you commit the number 1's in your 2 lists? You would be untruthful and dishonest if you said no, to put it mildly.

Please rephrase what you are saying, it is not so clear. But allow me to give a general comment based on a vague guess of what you might be asking.

Yes I kill from time to time, and yes there are moments when I refrain from killing.

Is this untruthfulness, if provided NO in your answer due to the Law of Karma as you understand it or is it the part of the branch of Buddhism your adhere to?

If I lied to you, then that would come under no. 4 in the first list.

I will discuss the other falsehoods in your lists after your response.

Well, if I understood what you were implying earlier regarding the journey being our own and just trying to be the best of humans, are you not then in a way contradicting yourself here?

 

[spnadmin]

so long as no attempt is made to get into a discussion with me about the subject. I know of other Sikhs who do believe that karma was taught by Guru Nanak.

Confused ji

It was your choice to respond to my remarks, and as you did. Likewise I shall select my own times and topics.

 

[spnadmin]

Off topic much?

Yes, Ishna ji. Any continuation of a personal dispute is always off topic. That is why I kept my comments brief. We are on notice.

My intention is to continue the notion that "karma" is not essential to Guru Nanak's philosophy; whereas, "karam" is essential

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Here a re afew examples of why these are NOT "SPIRITS" but REAL PEOPLE..with real PANJ TATT (BHOOT) according to Bhai Kahn Singh nabha Mahankosh BHOOT is soemthing made up of the FIVE ELEMENTS...hence a LIVING breathing being BUT doing INHUMAN things !!! These INUMAN BEHAVIOUR is described in these shabads...I Give the Opening line and Panna..please read the full shabad at the page.( IN BRACKETS and ROMAN NUMERALS)
1. ਕਬੀਰ ਜਾ ਘਰ ਸਾਧ ਨ ਸੇਵੀਅਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਨਾਹਿ।। ਤੇ ਘਰ ਮਰਹਟ ਸਾਰਖੇ ਭੂਤ ਬਸਹਿ ਤਿਨ ਮਾਹਿ।। (ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ, ਪੰਨਾ : 1374)
2. ਜੋ ਮੋਹਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਦੇ ਮੇਰੀ ਜਿੰਦੁੜੀਏੇ ਸੇ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਮੂੜ ਬਿਤਾਲੇ ਰਾਮ।। (ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ, ਪੰਨਾ : 538)
3. ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਨਾਮਹੀਨ ਬੇਤਾਲ।। ਜੇਤਾ ਕਰਨ ਕਰਾਵਨ ਤੇਤਾ ਸਭਿ ਬੰਧਨ ਜੰਜਾਲ।। (ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ, ਪੰਨਾ : 1222)
4. ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਭਾਵ ਹੀਣੰ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਿਸਰਤ ਤੇ ਪ੍ਰੇਤਤਹ।। (ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ, ਪੰਨਾ : 706)
5. ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਪਰੇਤੁ ਹੈ ਕਾਮੁ ਕੋ੍ਰਧੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਾ।। (ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ, ਪੰਨਾ : 513)
6. ਅੰਤਰਿ ਵਸਤੁ ਮੂੜਾ ਬਾਹਰੁ ਭਾਲੇ।। ਮਨਮੁਖ ਅੰਧੇ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਬੇਤਾਲੇ।। (ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ, ਪੰਨਾ : 117)

And those that CHANGE these abd habits and become TRANSFORMED..again NOT into ANGELS of the SPIRIT REALM..BUT living right here beside us...

7. ਪਰੇਤਹੁ ਕੀਤੋਨੁ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਤਿਨਿ ਕਰਣੈਹਾਰੇ।। ਸਭੇ ਸਿਖ ਉਬਾਰਿਅਨੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰੇ।। (ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ, ਪੰਨਾ : 323)
8. ਗੁਰੁ ਦਰੀਆਉ ਸਦਾ ਜਲੁ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਮੈਲੁ ਹਰੈ।। ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਪਾਇਐ ਪੂਰਾ ਨਾਵਣੁ ਪਸੂ ਪਰੇਤਹੁ ਦੇਵ ਕਰੈ।। (ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ, ਪੰਨਾ : 1329)

Since many propose that BHOOTS devils prets demons etc are also Part of the so called Law of KARMA..these shbads prove that this is a FALLACY. The Guru Nanak House relies on KARAM..ACTIONS by LIVING BEINGS....there is no such thing as "Karma"...becasue this was REJECTED BY Guur Nanak Ji first off by declaring that where did KARMA coem form when Man was first Created !!! WHO did the "good karma" to make the frst man possible ?? and more importantly who did all those BAD KARMAS to be created into dogs and cats rats snakes etc etc..??? Since THIS DECLARATION has NO ANSWER..the so called law of karma stands repudiated. KARAMS !!!! not Karmas ...

 

[Archived_member14]

Gyani ji,

Since many propose that BHOOTS devils prets demons etc are also Part of the so called Law of KARMA..these shbads prove that this is a FALLACY.

It does not follow. This only proves the limitation of understanding. It has always been my impression that most Sikhs who believe in the concept of karma, do so with limited application and dismiss the idea of existence of petas and hell beings. Also I see that the concept of karma if interpreted correctly is in fact incompatible with belief in God. But still I consider this better than not believing in karma at all.

The Guru Nanak House relies on KARAM..ACTIONS by LIVING BEINGS....there is no such thing as "Karma"...becasue this was REJECTED BY Guru Nanak Ji first off by declaring that where did KARMA coem form when Man was first Created !!! WHO did the "good karma" to make the frst man possible ?? and more importantly who did all those BAD KARMAS to be created into dogs and cats rats snakes etc etc..??? Since THIS DECLARATION has NO ANSWER..the so called law of karma stands repudiated. KARAMS !!!! not Karmas ...

For your information, my son at 12, asked a similar question, but fortunately for him, I was there to set him straight. Also this question is more or less similar to one that I myself asked at the age of 15, only in my case it was with reference to the concept of God. If God made man, then who made God? No answer means I stopped believing.

But of course later I realized that my line of inquiry was without merit. It was simply the use of reason without any understanding about anything. Now the basis of my rejection is understanding what in fact is the Truth / The way things are. And I see that my son's questioning and the one you cite above are in fact “wrong questions”. To illustrate:

A man is shot by an arrow while on a walk with his companions. His friends want to take him to see a doctor, but he stops them saying that he first wants to know who shot the arrow. They find out and tell him, but still he does not want to go to the doctor. He now wants to know which town that person was from, and when that was known, to know about the wood used for the arrow, the kind of bow etc. But in the end he dies because it became too late.

This illustration points to the lack of wisdom and corresponding sense of urgency regarding the object of study, which is the here and now. The causes and conditions for each arising can be known all in the moment and this is the only valid object of study. To wonder about what went before and what might be the first cause is reflection of the inability to see that the reality here and now is the only source of true knowledge. It is an inclination to metaphysics rather than to understanding the Truth. Indeed the Truth would reveal the knowledge that in fact all phenomena follow a circular path. Seeking a first cause is linear thinking and misses the point. Most importantly, the fact is that while we are lost in speculations, more and more ignorance is being accumulated in the meantime.

 

[harcharanjitsinghdhillon]

yes the highest reward that we can attained life after life thru karma is a physical human body,, which we already having it now... so now is the time to run after mukti by earning the lord s grace.. without grace, death and karmas will never leave us...thanks

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Confused ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

Tejwant ji,

Fortunately you are not my therapist; therefore I don't have to be moved by what you say. You know I could just ignore you, but I'll explain myself as I've done several times before instead.

I am happily surprised to know that you have a shrink because you feel the need and you are right, I am not your shrink, nor can I be because I am not trained in that field. Having a Shrink means you have lots of flaws and often wrong but your ego would not let you admit that. Here is what you said later on in this very post.

I have said to you in the past that my perception is that my view is right

This shows that contradicting yourself with your babble is your speciality inflated with self deceit (your words) and ego. Is this due to your Karma?

Your weakness is that your ego will not let you ignore anyone because it gives you more space and time to show you egotistic side.

When I see some Sikhs expressing some confidence in the concept of karma I am happy, especially given others are trying to convince them otherwise.

So, you mean misleading some Sikhs who may not be aware of the difference between Karma and KARAM-which is the concept in Sikhi, makes you happy. This does not surprise me because your ego does need to be fed with maggots of ignorance to stay healthy. Your ignorance about the KARAM concept of Sikhi, does not surprise me because you have said you are not here to learn but to perturb like a hooligan. Those Sikhs you have been trying to mislead will find their way towards SAT- The Objective reality one day. You have just given them the scenic view for their journey by trying to fool them with your own foolishness and ignorance about KARAM.

I consider the belief in moral cause and effect to be essential to growth in morality, but of course with understanding about what it really is. And I am put off by suggestions which point at some other basis for action, such as the idea of “consonance” or the belief in “God”.

Morality is a very subjective thing and based on the values of different cultures, but you are too ignorant to grasp the notion of morality. Allow me to explain this further. I promise you I am not trying to trip you from your high chair. It is moral to be naked in the tribes of Amazons and others around the world whereas, the same is immoral in the world where you and I live.
We will be arrested. So, please explain what morality really is, Mr. Know it All.

And I am put off by suggestions which point at some other basis for action, such as the idea of “consonance” or the belief in “God”.

You can see for yourself how incoherent you are in response to my post. Please show where I mentioned the above in it. Be honest this time.

I consider that the true basis for doing good and avoiding evil lie in the understanding of these states as and when they arise.

Please define what do doing good and avoiding evil lie really mean? Elaborate it in a logical manner where reason is required. Having said that and I am here to give you another chance, but once again it is off topic as far as my post is concerned to you because my post never mentions that. You with your smoke and mirrors.

To refer to concepts such as that of God or consonance or to a story line regarding different situations is just that, thinking and believing. They amount to psychological prompts and no more. Today you hold on to one idea as motivation to act one way, tomorrow you hold to another to act a different way. On the other hand, once you understand the characteristics of different moral states, you don’t even need to use any word in order to do the right thing.

Again off topic. Nothing to do with my post but you love to babble for no reason nor ryme.

Do I expect anyone here to convert to Buddhism? Absolutely not. I don't expect Buddhists to be convinced. I just state what I do with the hope that a little change in perspective happen. If someone here has a little appreciation of karma and someone else tries to convince him that it does not exist, I am compelled to come in with my own comments.

Well, but you have shown your bloody nerve by flaunting your ignorance about the subject you have no knowledge about.

No doubt much of what I write is motivated invariably by attachment and by conceit. This however cannot be avoided.

Thanks for being honest for a change about your conceit. Tell me why can it not be avoided? Be logical please.

Also I realize that kindness rarely arises. However all this is not enough reason to stop expressing myself. Because from time to time there are intentions I consider positive, one associated with the thought that perhaps my comments are helpful.

I beg to differ with you. Your falsehoods are only fodder for your own ego. You seem to help it quite well.

Regarding approaching the discussions with the intention to learn from each other. I have said to you in the past that my perception is that my view is right and everyone else is wrong. Since then, this has become even more apparent and I often don't need to read more than just a few words and see the underlying view.

With the above remark, one can only feel sorry for your state, your spouse and your off springs. It must be tough for them to live and listen to the rubbish from Mr. Always Right. But, once again off topic. Nothing to do with my post.

For example just two years ago, while sorting out my books I put aside a few of J. Krishnamurti’s books for my son to read, thinking that the Buddha's Dhamma is perhaps too deep for him to understand and that in the meantime Krishnamurti may be helpful. But just recently I read some comments which in the past impressed me greatly, and found them to be more misleading that I thought before. So I decided, no, don't read Krishnamurti, better read your math instead.

Thanks for proving my point above by admitting that you want your son to be your mirror rather than being an individual to carve his own journey. Does this desperate try to make your son YOU arise from your belief in Karma or is this concept borrowed from the movie,” Boys from Brazil”?

And do you suppose that I approach a discussion with preconceived ideas? I read them; only very quickly get the impression that something is wrong. This can't be helped can it?

Thanks for admitting about your shallow nature which prevents you from learning. And off topic.

You know what; I hesitate to call myself a Buddhist even. This is because I consider Buddhist only when a moment of right understanding has arisen and not at any other time. Why would I entertain the idea that this person or that person is a Buddhist, let alone that there is one more person who goes by the label? And why would I be motivated to do this when it is evident not only by the lack of interest shown, but more so the perception of how wide the gap is between the Sikh and Buddhist understanding? Besides, if you had some idea regarding what it means to have ADD, you'd know that it takes a great deal of effort for someone like me to accomplish anything, and although it becomes easier due to practice, it is still a laborious task to write these posts.

Just more off topic babble.

But back to your comment above, what you say does not make sense. You are saying that there is no need to correct anyone's views or are you in fact saying that no one is wrong?

Sorry to disappoint you but my comment makes perfect sense. You are contradicting yourself in your latter part of your statement which I never mentioned in my post.

Whose views are correct and who is not wrong? Please elaborate

Please rephrase what you are saying, it is not so clear. But allow me to give a general comment based on a vague guess of what you might be asking.

What do you want me to rephrase. I just asked you to be honest about the number 1’s in your lists. Which part did you not get?

Yes I kill from time to time, and yes there are moments when I refrain from killing.

You are being dishonest and lying. You kill all the times. We all do as humans. In order to survive, we have to consume life in many forms. Which rocks do you chew for your survival?

If I lied to you, then that would come under no. 4 in the first list.

As I said in my post, we will come to the other falsehoods later on. Let’s move slowly, one by one.

Well, if I understood what you were implying earlier regarding the journey being our own and just trying to be the best of humans, are you not then in a way contradicting yourself here?

What am I contradicting about what? Please elaborate.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[spnadmin]

yes the highest reward that we can attained life after life thru karma is a physical human body,, which we already having it now... so now is the time to run after mukti by earning the lord s grace.. without grace, death and karmas will never leave us...thanks

harcharanjitsinghdhillon ji

Please explain because I do not understand your remarks.

1. By "life after life" do you mean reincarnations?

2. You are saying that the highest reward we can attain is "life after life." Are you saying that we receive the highest reward more than once? That we keep receiving the highest reward time after time?

3. If we are "having it now" - that "highest reward" of a human life - why "run after mukhti?" If human life is the highest reward, then how would "mukhti" be a higher reward? What would be the point in running after mukhti?

4. How does one "run after mukhti?" Mukhti is a spiritual state? How would running after it work?

5. Why does one need to "earn the lord's grace?" My understanding is that gurprasad is given freely according to the Guru's kirpa?

6. How does mukhti release one from death?

 

[Ishna]

yes the highest reward that we can attained life after life thru karma is a physical human body,, which we already having it now... so now is the time to run after mukti by earning the lord s grace.. without grace, death and karmas will never leave us...thanks

Harcharanjit ji

I'm curious about the first part of your post, where you said 'yes the highest reward that we can attained life after life thru karma is a physical human body'.

Are you saying that, after living many lives as non-human life forms, by our karma we eventually become humans?

Does that mean that animals have the ability to rationalise and make "good/bad" decisions which influence their karma? Otherwise, how else would that work?

I may be misunderstanding what you said though.

 

[Luckysingh]

Harcharanjit ji

I'm curious about the first part of your post, where you said 'yes the highest reward that we can attained life after life thru karma is a physical human body'.

Are you saying that, after living many lives as non-human life forms, by our karma we eventually become humans?

Does that mean that animals have the ability to rationalise and make "good/bad" decisions which influence their karma? Otherwise, how else would that work?

I may be misunderstanding what you said though.

Precisely !!
These were the very points and similar to what I was trying to direct the thread and fellow members towards earlier.
But the message of my post just got ignored as every one was going one-on-one with fellow members(contestants!)
And I can't say that anyone has put in anything valid or new that is directed at the original post and thread either !!

Anyway, I will quote some of it below for reference !

Now, we often hear about the classic 84 lak joon or 8400,00 births..etc...
A very easy and common thing for sikhs to interpret is that '' I'm not a jatt, khatri or rajput now, because I worked my way up the caste ladder in previous births!!
- BUT, instead we often see the interpretation that I have gone through 84 lakh life cycles and worked my way up the species to human !!

Fair enough- at least we rejecting the caste here according to Guru Nanakji.
BUT- we are also saying that I may have been an ant in previous form.
so we have 2 options-

1) human birth after being a BAD ant- birth without limbs/eyes/ears...etc...
2) human birth after being a GOOD samaritan ant !

If we think about it, how much karam will an ant really accumulate that dictate it's future as a human.
I mean is the 'bad' ant really going to be a mass murderer that leads the fellow ants into a pool of poison by tricking them ??

OR is the ant going to be so good, that it applies first aid and carries all fellow disabled ants across the little pond to the feast of disowned choc bar dumped by a human.???

OR will it make fellow ants protective metal shields so that they don't get stepped on ???

REALLY, HOW MUCH KARMA CAN AN ANT ACCUMULATE ??

SO- WHY THE MENTION OF 84 LAKH ??
- I think because Guruji is telling us that the karma does not decide your caste or why you are born blind.
He tells us that we are ALL human and that there are 84 lakh other species alive and known to mankind, that each have a life to live.

The 84 lakh is a confirmation to us that says -''Look, these other species don't have the mind or the free-will to action, love, connect, meditate, teach, learn about the 'waheguru' that us humans do!!! S why are wasting ourselves by not using this free-will for the right thing ???

It's a little like when someone complains about not having enough money for extra snacks in their weekly shopping,-and you tell them that ''look, there are x amount of billion that won't have a meal tomorrow, or they don't even know if they will get any food, and your worried about extra snacks ??''

In a similar waythe 84 lakh is a confirmation of all those species that don't have a caste system and how the hell do they work themselves up the animal kingdom or whatever ??
Come on, do we really think that happens, when we are quite an educated few generations ???


I find it clear and apparent that Guru Nanak ji' is saying that we shouldn't be worrying about karma, you will reap as you sow.
Your actions will give you the reactions...etc..
To add, he is saying that if you feel or believe that there is a karma attached to yourself or hanging over from birth, then it is ALL his doing and he pre-ordains it. Because he is the creator and destroyer of karma.
And he can initiate it good or bad or destroy and create it again !

 

[spnadmin]

Luckysingh ji

At the risk of sounding like a "contestant" I would like to suggest that Ambarsaria, Tejwant Singh, Gyani Jarnail Singh ji, Harry Haller ji and I have not ignored you. Each has added a perspective that adds more levels to our understanding of the so-called Law of Karma.

You said,

I find it clear and apparent that Guru Nanak ji' is saying that we shouldn't be worrying about karma, you will reap as you sow.
Your actions will give you the reactions...etc..
To add, he is saying that if you feel or believe that there is a karma attached to yourself or hanging over from birth, then it is ALL his doing and he pre-ordains it. Because he is the creator and destroyer of karma.
And he can initiate it good or bad or destroy and create it again !

This is an admin note, not a change of subject. Each in our own way may feel that your summation is not a complete statement of Guru Nanak's ideas of karma, or we may even see it as inaccurate. If we add or contradict or aim our words from a different angle, and then are told we have added nothing new or are ignoring you, why even have a discussion? You know I have held off for days from disagreeing with several points you have made because I did not want to interrupt the continuity of the conversation. But when I believed I needed to speak, that was my right. The important thing is to be civil.

Let's be guided by the need to add rather than to boil things down to bare comfort levels. That is Sikh parchaar. Thanks. spnadmin

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Precisely !!
These were the very points and similar to what I was trying to direct the thread and fellow members towards earlier.
But the message of my post just got ignored as every one was going one-on-one with fellow members(contestants!)
And I can't say that anyone has put in anything valid or new that is directed at the original post and thread either !!

Anyway, I will quote some of it below for reference !

Lucky Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I feel lucky today. I will put all my chips on black at the roulette table. J/k.

Now, to the serious matter. I have no idea what your gripe is to be honest. Please share with us what you have feelings about, not based on some orally passed on Sakhis, but from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, so we can learn from each other.

The objective of this forum is not to get upset but to join hands and give a hand whoever is in need. Hence, it is fruitless to be cross at anyone.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Luckysingh]

Lucky Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I feel lucky today. I will put all my chips on black at the roulette table. J/k.

Now, to the serious matter. I have no idea what your gripe is to be honest. Please share with us what you have feelings about, not based on some orally passed on Sakhis, but from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, so we can learn from each other.

The objective of this forum is not to get upset but to join hands and give a hand whoever is in need. Hence, it is fruitless to be cross at anyone.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Sorry, If I came across a little blunt, but that is not normally my attitude.
I am not cross at anyone for anything or hold any negativity as such, but when a thread starts to go off topic, especially into directions where we have other threads- then I normally switch off !!

My concentration time span is not anywhere near what it used to be, but I do try and mask it where I can !

Don't think that i'm upset or annoyed because I don't really get those emotions anymore. In fact I'm so calm most of the time that my wife often worries that there is something more serious underlying going on.

The real point I was making was more about not rejecting karma outright, but more about applying it in everyday life.
My idea seems to be somewhere in between with most of the classic concepts of karma kindly rejected and more with applying the effects to our consciousness and opportunities we are faced with where we use our free-will.

I would probably associate this idea of karma not with a defining just law as such, but with more overlap with free-will rather than reincarnation and the usual jargon of caste..etc...etc...


The weakness is sometimes the way we express ourselves and the reaction we expect compared to the reaction deserved.
Which is probably exactly where my weakness is being addressed.
In this very case, I would probably say that my impression was that not everyone really understood my half-way, yes and no approach.
Maybe it seemed like a little rant coming from someone who can't make his mind up !!
I could have definitely used some better examples as my mind is probably more made up than yesterday or the previous day.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Lucky Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Your write:

Sorry, If I came across a little blunt, but that is not normally my attitude.
I am not cross at anyone for anything or hold any negativity as such, but when a thread starts to go off topic, especially into directions where we have other threads- then I normally switch off !!

My concentration time span is not anywhere near what it used to be, but I do try and mask it where I can !

Don't think that i'm upset or annoyed because I don't really get those emotions anymore. In fact I'm so calm most of the time that my wife often worries that there is something more serious underlying going on.

No harm, no foul but the tendency of the thread is like a patchwork quilt, it does go haywire unless only 2 people are having a conversation. So, one needs to adjust to that and must keep on hammering one's point whoever it is addressed to.

The real point I was making was more about not rejecting karma outright, but more about applying it in everyday life.

If you do not mind please explain your understanding and the difference between Karma and Karam. I assume you know the difference and please elaborate what you mean by,"but more about applying it in everyday life" with the Shabads from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru.

My idea seems to be somewhere in between with most of the classic concepts of karma kindly rejected and more with applying the effects to our consciousness and opportunities we are faced with where we use our free-will.

Pardon my ignorance, but you have to explain to a lay man like me, what you really mean by the above. Please elaborate with the help of Gurbani. Free-will is part of Christian faith, nothing to do with Sikhi.

I would probably associate this idea of karma not with a defining just law as such, but with more overlap with free-will rather than reincarnation and the usual jargon of caste..etc...etc...

As mentioned above, Freewill is a Christian jargon which is self contradictory to the omnipotent Deity they worship which has nothing to do with Sikhi. Secondly, Reincarnation has nothing to do with Sikhi either.

Acknowledgement of what the Hindus believe in by our Gurus does not mean its acceptance. Every Shabad in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that mentions reincarnation also mentions at the end that if you are a true Sikh, you are not in this,"Mary go round".

The weakness is sometimes the way we express ourselves and the reaction we expect compared to the reaction deserved.
Which is probably exactly where my weakness is being addressed.

Please elaborate the above for my better understanding of what you are truly trying to convey.

In this very case, I would probably say that my impression was that not everyone really understood my half-way, yes and no approach.
Maybe it seemed like a little rant coming from someone who can't make his mind up !!
I could have definitely used some better examples as my mind is probably more made up than yesterday or the previous day.

Again, no harm, no foul. Let's carry on the path of understanding Gurbani and its concept.

Hope to hear from you.

Thanks and regards.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

You know I have held off for days from disagreeing with several points you have made because I did not want to interrupt the continuity of the conversation. But when I believed I needed to speak, that was my right. The important thing is to be civil.

Spnadmin Ji I agree with you that in being civil one must for go ones right and not speak as much as to say what one felt was needed to be said, but rather to say what someone needed to hear.

 

[Archived_member14]

Tejwant ji,

Quote: Tejwant ji,

Fortunately you are not my therapist; therefore I don't have to be moved by what you say. You know I could just ignore you, but I'll explain myself as I've done several times before instead. <>

I am happily surprised to know that you have a shrink because you feel the need and you are right, I am not your shrink, nor can I be because I am not trained in that field. Having a Shrink means you have lots of flaws and often wrong but your ego would not let you admit that. Here is what you said later on in this very post.

No I don't have a shrink. But this is not because I don’t have any flaws, only I don't think a shrink can help me.

===

Quote: I have said to you in the past that my perception is that my view is right <>

This shows that contradicting yourself with your babble is your speciality inflated with self deceit (your words) and ego. Is this due to your Karma?

How am I contradicting myself? There is tremendous potential for all kinds of evil, so I don't think myself as a good person at all. But then I’ve also heard and understood to some extent the Buddha's teachings, and it is because of this that I recognize wrong view expressed.

I am what I am due to accumulations (the tendencies accumulated in the past); this is not karma result.

===

Your weakness is that your ego will not let you ignore anyone because it gives you more space and time to show you egotistic side.

One of the accumulated tendencies is conceit (ego); I don't expect mine to diminish significantly anytime soon, read aeons upon aeons.

===

Quote: When I see some Sikhs expressing some confidence in the concept of karma I am happy, especially given others are trying to convince them otherwise. <>

So, you mean misleading some Sikhs who may not be aware of the difference between Karma and KARAM-which is the concept in Sikhi, makes you happy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, karam means action? If so, know that one meaning of karma is also action.
Anyway, even if the meaning is completely different, it is not the word karam that I have in mind, but the fact that Guru Nanak taught against greed, anger, pride and other evils and encouraged being content, speaking the truth, compassion and so on. This is to distinguish good karma from bad karma and if karam means something else, it makes no difference to me

===

This does not surprise me because your ego does need to be fed with maggots of ignorance to stay healthy. Your ignorance about the KARAM concept of Sikhi, does not surprise me because you have said you are not here to learn but to perturb like a hooligan.

I am not here to perturb, after all that would be ill-will which is bad karma. I am here for those who are not perturbed or if they do occasionally are, get something positive out of what I write, even when I go against the rules of this list about staying on-topic. Hooligan is your perception of me, one that is probably painted by a mind which is perturbed.

===

Those Sikhs you have been trying to mislead will find their way towards SAT- The Objective reality one day. You have just given them the scenic view for their journey by trying to fool them with your own foolishness and ignorance about KARAM.

Let's do this. Start a discussion on karam and karma in a new thread. I remember we did similarly before but at that time, you did not engage me and it was you who suggested that we do. Would you do so now?

===

Quote: I consider the belief in moral cause and effect to be essential to growth in morality, but of course with understanding about what it really is. And I am put off by suggestions which point at some other basis for action, such as the idea of “consonance” or the belief in “God”. <>

Morality is a very subjective thing and based on the values of different cultures, but you are too ignorant to grasp the notion of morality. Allow me to explain this further. I promise you I am not trying to trip you from your high chair. It is moral to be naked in the tribes of Amazons and others around the world whereas, the same is immoral in the world where you and I live.
We will be arrested. So, please explain what morality really is, Mr. Know it All.

I don't know what it is to be Mr. Know it All. What I can say is that to some degree, I can distinguish right from wrong view and correspondingly, right and wrong thinking. But this is only at the kindergarten level. But back to your comment.

If you will look at the list of bad and good karma which I cited, you will see that walking about naked vs. covering oneself is not included anywhere. And if you will refer to my last message to Ambarsaria ji, you will see that I suggested that moral good and bad are reference to corresponding states of mind with particular characteristics and that because people are ignorant of this, different people's ideas about morality should not be cause for confusion such that one may then be led to conclude that in fact morality is relative. We can discuss this further also, in the new thread.

===

Quote: And I am put off by suggestions which point at some other basis for action, such as the idea of “consonance” or the belief in “God”.<>

You can see for yourself how incoherent you are in response to my post. Please show where I mentioned the above in it. Be honest this time.

Well, was I not talking in terms of what goes on in general here? I wonder if you too have ADD, because this happens to me quite often, namely that I skip over words and misunderstand the message.

===

Quote: I consider that the true basis for doing good and avoiding evil lie in the understanding of these states as and when they arise. <>

Please define what do doing good and avoiding evil lie really mean? Elaborate it in a logical manner where reason is required. Having said that and I am here to give you another chance, but once again it is off topic as far as my post is concerned to you because my post never mentions that. You with your smoke and mirrors.

I do often go off-topic, and I won't even know that I'm doing it or figure out what the main topic is. But as much as I can, I try in every comment that I make, to say something useful, otherwise I have no reason to be here. So again, smoke and mirrors is just your own perception. But back to your comment.

Refer again to my list of 10 unwholesome and the 10 wholesome courses of action. And understand that good are states of mind rooted in two or more of the three wholesome roots of wisdom, non-attachment and non-aversion. This includes for example, generosity, morality, kindness, compassion, detachment, wisdom, faith, mindfulness etc. Bad are states rooted in one or two of the three unwholesome roots of ignorance, attachment and aversion. The examples are sensuous attachment, miserliness, jealousy, ill-will, deceit, conceit, shamelessness, doubt, wrong understanding and so on.

Is this enough, and if it is not logical, can you point out to me why so that I may perhaps try to do better?

===

Quote: To refer to concepts such as that of God or consonance or to a story line regarding different situations is just that, thinking and believing. They amount to psychological prompts and no more. Today you hold on to one idea as motivation to act one way, tomorrow you hold to another to act a different way. On the other hand, once you understand the characteristics of different moral states, you don't even need to use any word in order to do the right thing. <>

Again off topic. Nothing to do with my post but you love to babble for no reason nor ryme.

When discussing with other people about such matters, I believe that there should be no attempt to stay on one particular topic. It is about life and life is a series of states of mind one after another which is unpredictable and should be understood in the moment. So if some important question arises for anyone, let him ask it and let someone answer, even if it is going off-topic.

Anyway, what I expressed above is about Karma, no. 10 in the first list vs. no. 10 in the second.

===

Quote: Do I expect anyone here to convert to Buddhism? Absolutely not. I don't expect Buddhists to be convinced. I just state what I do with the hope that a little change in perspective happen. If someone here has a little appreciation of karma and someone else tries to convince him that it does not exist, I am compelled to come in with my own comments. <>

Well, but you have shown your bloody nerve by flaunting your ignorance about the subject you have no knowledge about.

Like I said, lets discuss this in a new thread and we will then see who is ignorant and who is not.

===

Quote: No doubt much of what I write is motivated invariably by attachment and by conceit. This however cannot be avoided. <>

Thanks for being honest for a change about your conceit. Tell me why can it not be avoided? Be logical please

Because no state of mind is subject to the control of will, any impression of being able to control is only an illusion. Mental states have already risen and fallen away by the time they are known and thought about and the next moment can't be predicted. Also the tendencies to evil particularly that of ignorance, have been accumulated infinitely more than good, therefore the probability of the former arising is much greater.

Please point out to me where I have not been honest?

===

Quote: Also I realize that kindness rarely arises. However all this is not enough reason to stop expressing myself. Because from time to time there are intentions I consider positive, one associated with the thought that perhaps my comments are helpful.

I beg to differ with you. Your falsehoods are only fodder for your own ego. You seem to help it quite well.

Yeah, my ego gets fed quite often.
But let's discuss about the Truth and see if in fact my comments are falsehoods or not.

===

Quote: Regarding approaching the discussions with the intention to learn from each other. I have said to you in the past that my perception is that my view is right and everyone else is wrong. Since then, this has become even more apparent and I often don't need to read more than just a few words and see the underlying view. <>

With the above remark, one can only feel sorry for your state, your spouse and your off springs. It must be tough for them to live and listen to the rubbish from Mr. Always Right. But, once again off topic. Nothing to do with my post.

Ah, don't worry about this; my wife is faithful to Sikhi and I seldom discuss such things with my children. I'd rather that they approach me with questions and this doesn't happen often. My wife on the other hand, tries hard to feed them with Sikh stories and make them read the scriptures.

===

Quote: For example just two years ago, while sorting out my books I put aside a few of J. Krishnamurti’s books for my son to read, thinking that the Buddha's Dhamma is perhaps too deep for him to understand and that in the meantime Krishnamurti may be helpful. But just recently I read some comments which in the past impressed me greatly, and found them to be more misleading that I thought before. So I decided, no, don't read Krishnamurti, better read your math instead. <>

Thanks for proving my point above by admitting that you want your son to be your mirror rather than being an individual to carve his own journey.

You should know that the Krishnamurti books were kept aside and only once or twice I reminded my son about it and he read only one page once. And that this last bit about better read math, this I was only expressing what went through my own mind. I did not say it to him. What you might conclude from what I wrote is simply that I'd not encourage my son to read Krishnamurti anymore and that he should spend more time on his school studies.

And know this also, that just as I think in relation to people in general, I consider the probability of my children understanding the Buddha’s teachings to be quite low.

===

Does this desperate try to make your son YOU arise from your belief in Karma or is this concept borrowed from the movie,” Boys from Brazil”?

Believe it or not, my children often hear me saying that they should be careful about certain things so that they *do not grow up to be like me*! I would never tell then to emulate me or for the matter anyone else. Besides, what I always remind people is that the goal in life is to understand who you are, and that a vagrant who understands himself is successful, and a Nobel prize winner who does not understand himself is a failure.

===

Quote: You know what; I hesitate to call myself a Buddhist even. This is because I consider Buddhist only when a moment of right understanding has arisen and not at any other time. Why would I entertain the idea that this person or that person is a Buddhist, let alone that there is one more person who goes by the label? And why would I be motivated to do this when it is evident not only by the lack of interest shown, but more so the perception of how wide the gap is between the Sikh and Buddhist understanding? Besides, if you had some idea regarding what it means to have ADD, you'd know that it takes a great deal of effort for someone like me to accomplish anything, and although it becomes easier due to practice, it is still a laborious task to write these posts. <>

Just more off topic babble.

You mean when you accuse me of proselytizing it is OK, and when I respond with an explanation it becomes off-topic babble?

===

Quote: But back to your comment above, what you say does not make sense. You are saying that there is no need to correct anyone's views or are you in fact saying that no one is wrong? <>

Sorry to disappoint you but my comment makes perfect sense. You are contradicting yourself in your latter part of your statement which I never mentioned in my post.

Instead of becoming clear, it has just got more unclear. Can you try again?

===

Whose views are correct and who is not wrong? Please elaborate

Right View is only taught by a Buddha. Everyone else, when it comes to the matter of Truth and reality, are wrong. Does this answer your question?

===

Quote: Yes I kill from time to time, and yes there are moments when I refrain from killing. <>

You are being dishonest and lying. You kill all the times. We all do as humans. In order to survive, we have to consume life in many forms. Which rocks do you chew for your survival?

How am I killing all the time?

===

Quote: Well, if I understood what you were implying earlier regarding the journey being our own and just trying to be the best of humans, are you not then in a way contradicting yourself here? <>

What am I contradicting about what? Please elaborate.

You stated the following:

Quote:
“I am sure you are very well aware that proselytization is forbidden in Sikhi because our journey is our own as individuals. Be the best human you can be no matter what/who you believe in, sayeth the Guru Granth.”

What I got from this was the suggestion that it does not matter what the beliefs of the person is, Sikhs do not try to preach to them. So when you then wrote:

Quote:
“I will discuss the other falsehoods in your lists after your response.”

It sounded like you were telling me that the particular Buddhist teachings are false and that you would correct me.

 

[Luckysingh]

Gurfateh Tejwant ji,

If you do not mind please explain your understanding and the difference between Karma and Karam. I assume you know the difference and please elaborate what you mean by,"but more about applying it in everyday life" with the Shabads from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru.

Karma or karama as in punjabi, is the results of past actions. It is also the pre-ordained, such that your work and service as servant is pre-ordained.

Karam is more so referenced to good deeds and actions.
We often hear that good karams lead to good karama.

My own personal explanation of the system of actions/reactions..etc.. is in one of the earlier posts.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/controversies/39975-why-is-the-law-karma-rejected-2.html#post178734

Pardon my ignorance, but you have to explain to a lay man like me, what you really mean by the above. Please elaborate with the help of Gurbani. Free-will is part of Christian faith, nothing to do with Sikhi.

I don't want to go off topic here, but firstly if we realise that ALL is him.

Therefore what I do, how I behave, how you walk is ALL HIM.
Keeping this in mind, we know of Hukam, the divine will.

Because it is ALL him and ALL in his control !

However, under the same banner or umbrella of hukam is 'free-will'.

This is the ability and control that HE has given us.

Similar to when you give some one your car to drive, it is still yours.
You are still the owner, the decision maker of when you sell it/service...etc..
But the driver is driving under your permission and kindness !
He may have the keys and go whatever direction he chooses, but you can set the boundaries in terms of distance and time.
You still own the keys in is hands.

A little like how God gives us free will to make the choice whether to be gurmat or Not, whether to Devote to Him OR Not........


Importantly, Hukam and free will DO NOT go side by side, but freewill is itelf governed by the One Divine Hukam, and therfore comes under and below it, like everything else.

I tried to explain how these actions of freewill can determine the impact that karma can play on our lives earlier, although I'm not sure if that is how my expressions came out or got interpreted.

Acknowledgement of what the Hindus believe in by our Gurus does not mean its acceptance. Every Shabad in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that mentions reincarnation also mentions at the end that if you are a true Sikh, you are not in this,"Mary go round".

Please elaborate the above for my better understanding of what you are truly trying to convey.

Totally agree and I had tried to mention very similar in previous posts.
Again, I'm not sure if I was clear enough??

Gurbani throughout tells us that a gurmukh and the word of the shabad can overide and supersede any affects of some so called karma.
This is particularly important to 'pre-ordained' karma.

What do I mean by pre-ordained ?
- I would say this is to say that we all come into this world in different scenarios and settings. At the very moment I was born in the west, another child was born in the slums in Africa. This child grew up begging for every meal and probably felt that he was dealt a bad hand when born!!
WHY I was born here and him over there is ALL HIS PLAY and HUKAM.
It has nothing to do with previous life -good or bad deeds because as I explained earlier, how would you diffentiate the real good and bad actions of an ANT ????


So this HUKAM and order of the Divine is pre-ordained let's say for explantions sake..
No one except him can answer WHY?
ONLY HE HAS THAT CONTROL !

I am pretty certain this is what Guru Nanakji's message was.

So, to call this the pre-ordained karma that we can come with can help explain the actions carried out in our lives-
Such thatbeggar begs- receives food- survives- and -REPEAT...........


Maybe my previous posts can make a little more sense with this summary.

The shabad I quoted earlier on ang 2, japji sahib- is in my opinion mistranslated a little.


When one looks at the complete shabad, you can see that Guruji talks about how one can only be liberated with true bhagti and devotion.
It's not the karma that contribute to salvation.
But it is the True devotion that supersedes any such pre-ordains.

As many of us let the freewill actions and consequences ie. 'karma' decide our fate or qualifying for salvation.-
Guruji say's That that is not the case!!
-ONLY his grace can let us through that door!!

Looking at 'karmi avai kapra, nadri mokh duar'
One recieves kapra or garments for the body by doing good deeds as compared to how the karam or deeds can NOT get one Mokh or salvation.
Entry through the door of salvation is obtained by his grace only.


A Gurmukh is beyond and above any such laws of karma and karams-
If he/she uses the God given free-will to make the choice to submit to HIS Divine Hukam, then he/she is Gurmukh!!



Imagine that above us and above everything is this huge cloud of <<<<HUKAM>>>>> and His Divine Will.

Underneath iit s all things that it governs like...-
<<<<<< Create, Destroy, Birth, Death a...Freewill....etc...etc...>>>>>>

Now, as we will encounter different forms of creation/destruction, death...etc... We also have this little ability where 'Free-will' lets us make the choice.
BUT where the consequences place us to make this choice is governed directly by the Bigger <<<HUKAM>>> and ONLY he knows WHY !!

We have the choice to either stay down in the smaller clouds and try and control them ?
This way we can have people trying to control and determine birth, death, create weather,..etc....etc..

ALL of these people will keep meddling with everything trying to get control, but the winner will ALWAYS be HIM with his DIVINE COMMAND !!


In a similar manner, we can also stay in these smaller clouds and keep meddling with the free-will and karma trying to accumulate as many positive karams as possible if One think's that is the answer !

BUT, Guruji tells us that we won't get anywhere by submitting solely to this little cloud of free-will.

But the Gurmukh will submit to the large and overpowering <<<<HUKAM>>>>.

Make the right choice, don't let free-will conquer and strengthen your ego, haumai, acquisitons, power and wealth..etc..



ang 2 Japji Sahib

ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚੁ ਨਾਇ ਭਾਖਿਆ ਭਾਉ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
Sācẖā sāhib sācẖ nā▫e bẖākẖi▫ā bẖā▫o apār.
True is the Master, True is His Name-speak it with infinite love.


ਆਖਹਿ ਮੰਗਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦਾਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਦਾਤਾਰੁ ॥
Ākẖahi mangahi ḏehi ḏehi ḏāṯ kare ḏāṯār.
People beg and pray, "Give to us, give to us", and the Great Giver gives His Gifts.


ਫੇਰਿ ਕਿ ਅਗੈ ਰਖੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਦਿਸੈ ਦਰਬਾਰੁ ॥
Fer kė agai rakẖī▫ai jiṯ ḏisai ḏarbār.
So what offering can we place before Him, by which we might see the Darbaar of His Court?


ਮੁਹੌ ਕਿ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਬੋਲੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੁਣਿ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥
Muhou kė bolaṇ bolī▫ai jiṯ suṇ ḏẖare pi▫ār.
What words can we speak to evoke His Love?


ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
Amriṯ velā sacẖ nā▫o vadi▫ā▫ī vīcẖār.
In the Amrit Vaylaa, the ambrosial hours before dawn, chant the True Name, and contemplate His Glorious Greatness.


ਕਰਮੀ ਆਵੈ ਕਪੜਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਮੋਖੁ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥
Karmī āvai kapṛā naḏrī mokẖ ḏu▫ār.
By the karma of past actions, the robe of this physical body is obtained. By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found.


ਨਾਨਕ ਏਵੈ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ ॥੪॥
Nānak evai jāṇī▫ai sabẖ āpe sacẖiār. ||4||
O Nanak, know this well: the True One Himself is All. ||4||



Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/controversies/39975-why-is-the-law-karma-rejected-3.html#post178882


http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/controversies/39975-why-is-the-law-karma-rejected-3.html#post178882

 

[Ishna]

Lucky ji

What is the term used for free-will in Gurbani?

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

ਕਰਮੀ ਆਵੈ ਕਪੜਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਮੋਖੁ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥
Karmī āvai kapṛā naḏrī mokẖ ḏu▫ār.
By the karma of past actions, the robe of this physical body is obtained. By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found. ...

IF we follow HIM..(doo good actions Karam..then becasue of those we get Kapra..which is ROBE OF HONOUR and not HUMAN BODY..if we look for Internal evidence form SGGS itself....where the word Kapra reoccurs..!!...and once due to this Robe of Honour..His Love..His SIFT SALAH..we get MOKH from KOORR untruth...Koorreh tutteh paal ?? and we begin to SEE Nadareen HIM everywhere...His DWAAR is NOt a mythical Gate of heavens guarded by St Peter BUT the gate in our mind which OPENS..enabling us to SEE HIM in His creation..!!! see GOD EVERYWHERE...which is the RESULT of KARAM..our ACTIONS as LIVING BEINGS..and the Reward is also as LIVING human beings...
These authors of translations keep on bringing IN their own versions of the "truth".( from OUTSIDE)......when they should first of all LOOK INTERNALLY at each word in SGGS..so that the TRUTH comes out...and its not vainly said..ALL TRUTHS are INSIDE of SGGS..not an IOTA required form OUTSIDE !!!